One-sided Tense Bonding

[BunsBunsBuns]

IMG_6278

(Video reviewed and approved by Wick)

Spay/Neuter
Are your bunnies spayed/neutered?
If so, for how long (for each)?
Yes – almost 8 months ago for both

Housing

X-pen neighbors with an inch between the pens – they are in a spare bedroom where my make bunny was free roam for about 7 months until we got the female bunny about a month ago.

Bonding background
Did you allow the bunnies to “settle-in”?

Yes – Sweetie is the new bunny and she settled in for a couple of weeks, and then swapped pens for about a week before introductions.

How would you describe your bunnies reactions towards each other (answer for each bunny): shy, scared, curious, calm, aggressive, excited, affectionate, etc.?
Have you done any “pre-bonding” (cage or litter box swaps, etc.)?

Yes. For about a week beforehand and now for about 2 weeks during bonding.

Have you started sessions yet?

Yes.

How long have you been working on bonding your bunnies?

2 weeks

How frequently do you have bonding sessions, and how long are they?

Every Day for 2 weeks – started shorter but now they are regularly 1-3 hrs for the past week and a half.

Have you tried any stressing techniques?

Stressing lite…I put them together in a laundry basket and walk them around the house for ~5 min prior to the bonding sessions.

I’ve had Tipper (M) since January, and he’s been all over the house and is very outgoing/social with people.

I got Sweetie (F) about a month ago – they had a meeting at Sweetie’s house and seemed to get along. She is about the same age and a little timid around people and just not as comfortable with us as Tipper is.

Sweetie spent about a week getting settled in and then I did a week of cage swaps. During that time period, while I was out of the house, Tipper jumped out of his cage, over the xpen Sweetie was in, through a sheet I had to keep him from jumping over the cage, and into her cage. I got home to lots of fur all over the place…

Tipper is definitely the aggressor but they’ve had a few spats where they start to tornado, which (other than the escape when I want home) I’ve stopped immediately. No injuries – just lots of fur…Neither we me to hold a grudge – Sweetie has been super relaxed around Tipper since even though it seems like he pulled her fur out…

I started bonding in a small bathroom but have graduated into a 5×10 ft area in my dining room where Tipper hasn’t spent any time. They have hay and some neutral toys but no litter box. They are doing okay, although im noticing now that we’re about 2 weeks in that Sweetie seems to be settling in and has started marking (#1 and #2) the bonding area a lot more.

Other than those few fights bonding seems to be going really well for Sweetie – she has groomed Tipper multiple times (at least a few times a session for the past week), binkies, and flops, a lot of times right on Tipper’s face. She also runs around and plays and will do her own thing, but will go to him to sniff and to try for kisses (no dice).

Tipper, on the other hand, will ignore her for a bit but then aggressively go head to head and jam his head under hers for kisses. Sometimes she gives in and grooms but they have a lot of tense standoffs too, which I’ve been petting them a lot through…whether or not Sweetie grooms Tipper, he’ll get aggressive and start repeatedly nipping her (which is how their couple of tornadoes have started). I’ve been trying to keep it from escalating by repeatedly saying no to Tipper when I see him start to go for her, pushing Tipper away when he starts nipping, petting them both a ton,  or sometimes picking him up and removing him (he’s super comfortable being handled).

They eat around each other and will ignore each other for bouts of time – mostly good signs except for Tipper not being able to chill…

Tipper will flip and eventually relax away from her but won’t cuddle even when she flips and rolls over right on him. He just stays super tense and eventually will nip her hard. The photo is a good example of this – it looks like he’s laying down but he’s super tense and won’t relax next to her. He’ll  also go nip her feet or be pushy while she’s laying down and it adds tension. He hasn’t groomed her back yet and the banana-on-the-head just makes them both really aggressive because they love it.

Im wondering if there’s anything I should be doing to try to get Tipper to chill out more or if he’s so comfortable in our house that I’m going to have to take them somewhere else to try to fully bond them. Sweetie seems totally into this relationship but even though she’s grooming and seemingly being super submissive, Tipper won’t relax and groom her back 😢

 

[Wick & Fable]

At this point I would recommend against small stressing before doing a session — since they are at a point where fighting isn’t immediate/consistent, I wouldn’t want Tipper specifically to associate stress with  Sweetie (i.e. every time Tipper is with Sweetie, there’s an associated stressful situation right beforehand).

Tipper may never groom her back, so it will need to be a dynamic that they figure out themselves, whether Tipper grows more tolerant and/or Sweetie learns to deal with a one-sided grooming relationship.

How ‘involved’ are you with sessions and how close are you and Tipper? Sometimes a way to facilitate a relationship between the buns is to eliminate your involvement in petting/attending to the rabbit who seems more closed off to the idea of being bonded (i.e. Tipper).

Bonding generally always takes at least a couple of weeks, so this sounds like good progress. Continue letting the tense interactions happen (as long as they do not escalate) so there are chances for them to work things out. Sometimes the “banana” trick can open the door to one rabbit grooming the other.

Note that picking up Tipper and moving him away when he is nipping her may actually be reinforcing the behavior– Tipper is nipping to communicate wanting things to stop/Sweetie to go away, so you removing Tipper from the situation is essentially getting what he wants, and if he enjoys being cuddled/interacted with by humans, especially you, that adds to the reinforcing component.

 

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[DanaNM]

I agree with Wick that I wouldn’t move Tipper away when he starts going after her. Rather I would pin him in place if he starts to chase to let her move away.

But I think for the most part everything you are doing sounds fine, I think they just need more time together. For a rabbit to groom back they need to be very confident that the other rabbit isn’t going to hurt them, and that takes time for the trust to build.

Probably not the most satisfying advice but I would just keep going as you have been! Try to ease off the petting a little, but definitely keep preventing fights (which you seem to know the warning signs well for).

The other other tip is to make sure you are ending things on a positive note, even if it’s not as long as a session as you had hoped for. If you push it to the point where things get tense and then end it, you can unintentionally reinforce that the way to “make that other rabbit go away” is to fight or chase them off.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[BunsBunsBuns]

Thank you both for the thoughtful advice!

It’s a good point about the “removing” of Tipper potentially being reinforcing. I’ll stop doing that.

I will also give a go of not doing the pre-stressing – I was starting to ease off for a bit because Sweetie gets frightened easily, but then it seemed like Tipper was too comfortable since he’s so used to me. But I get the negative association but do we’ll see how that goes!!

I do have a very close relationship with Tipper (he has groomed me a few times so I think he is capable of love, lol). I can try to ease off petting him during their interactions – I’ve definitely been loving on him a lot when Sweetie is not giving him attention, hoping that would make him less pushy towards her.

I have definitely been making sure to end on a good note and overall they seem like they’re doing okay since they’re spending so long together now.

I’m going to try a much longer session (hopefully 6 hrs) today to see how that goes.

[BunsBunsBuns]

And…right after I posted that I’m pretty sure I caught Tipper grooming Sweetie!! Given, it was a super aggressive licking 😂 but that’s the first time I’ve seen him give her any love.

I moved them to a new neutral room today and since I read your post I’ve been focusing on petting Sweetie and just giving Tipper the odd pet every third or fourth time I pet Sweetie. He is still nipping her but seems a little more tolerant of her ignoring him!

[DanaNM]

That sounds very positive! Way to go!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[BunsBunsBuns]

Tipper spent about 2 min grooming Sweetie and then groomed her a couple more times (shorter) throughout their session ❤️

They are definitely still sorting things out with some nipping and humping (all Tipper) but you guys were spot on with the advice to back off a bit, so thank you so much!!!

Do you typically wait until they’re fully bonded to add in litter boxes? Or can I work them in and see how they do? Any behavior/tips to keep an eye out for?

Thanks a million!!!

[Wick & Fable]

I would introduce litter boxes into neutral once things are consistently positive in neutral. This is a nice way to see how the dynamic reacts/adapts to a potential territorial dispute. If it starts causing issues, I’d take it out and keep going with just hay on the floor or something and try again later.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[DanaNM]

That all sounds really great! I wouldn’t change anything for a few more dates, then start increasing the length of the sessions.

I usually don’t add litter boxes until the dates are at least several hours long and/or they seem pretty much bonded. I tend to use litter boxes as a final test to see how they’re doing, as in my experience only bonded (or almost bonded) buns will share a litter box. I usually get a brand new one that’s big enough for them both to be in easily.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[BunsBunsBuns]

Hi again – so after the encouraging long date on Saturday, Sunday and today the bunnies got into a fight (once each night) – I caught it quickly but I don’t understand what is going on with the backwards slide 😕

They actually seem more relaxed around each other now; Tipper is less nippy and seems more content to lay down / eat/ run around Sweetie without always asking for attention or nipping her when she’s trying to get away. Both of them are still grooming themselves near each other and eating in front of each other…

Sweetie seems way less willing to groom Tipper now – just a couple little ESR licks a night, where before (and again when he was being way more aggressive with her) she would groom him for a minute. Tipper has not returned to grooming Sweetie even though he did it a couple times Saturday.

Is this a major setback? Are they really just incompatible or is this type of backsliding normal? Should I just give them a break for a couple of days and cage swap? I have been backing off a lot during their bonding time (almost no pets) so I’m wondering if that’s leading to tension leading to the fights?

[BunsBunsBuns]

And – after they fought I took them in a walk around the house in their dreaded laundry basket and took them back to the “neutral area.” Tipper eventually gave Sweetie a couple of licks on the nose.

unfortunately, I’m so on edge from them getting into fights that I started to make a noise when he put his head over hers to kiss her and maybe interrupted a longer groom.

For now they seem relaxed and are close (nose to nose) but in full bun loaf glory and seem relaxed around each other. I just don’t understand the renewed fighting – it seems like mostly boxing but I feel like it would escalate if I wasn’t right there to stop it.

 

[BunsBunsBuns]

And right after I posted this Tipper groomed Sweetie for almost a minute.

It’s hilarious because he tries to play it off like he’s grooming himself and then licks her head between his paws. He also used her head as a foot rest so he could clean his foot 😂 but she didn’t seem to mind.

 

They both just seem so stubborn and I do feel that Sweetie is asserting herself a little more, which is maybe what’s leading to the fighting?

I almost feel like I don’t make any progress with them unless they’re together for a few hours at this point so maybe I need to try longer sessions again this weekend?

Sorry this has turned into a multi-part saga 😂

[DanaNM]

It’s completely normal for there to be some steps forward and then back, so don’t despair! I think the use of the laundry basket post-fight was a good idea!

I would honestly just keep going as you have been, and try to increase the length of sessions as you can. I wouldn’t pause sessions unless a bun was injured.

So have they fought each night towards the end of the longer sessions?

Some things to try:

-try a different time of day if you can

-go on a laundry basket ride around the time you anticipate they might start to scuffle (so if they get feisty around 3 hours, go for a basket ride at 2.5 hrs)

-use food: give them a shower of treats or a bunch of veggies to share around the time they start getting antsy (I like cheerios for this specific purpose LOL)

-make the bonding space larger (this can help them get away from each other when things get tense)

-add new hides or tunnels if the space is large enough. obstacles can break up chases to help the fights de-escalate on their own, just be sure all hides have at least 2 exits. Sometimes they cause territorial behavior, so they might need to be removed.

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[BunsBunsBuns]

To answer your question, the fighting seems like it’s happening earlier (like 30 min in).

I put them in a new room today while I was working (so also during the day). They were together from 9:30-4.

There was regular grooming from both sides (this seems to have progressed from this weekend), with Tipper maybe grooming a little more.

However, they did get in 3 or 4 tiffs today – Is call it boxing maybe (?) but again I feel like if I wasn’t there to intervene it might have escalated.

I don’t know if this is normal since both of them seem much more relaxed around each other today – overall (except for the fighting) things seemed really really good. They are sleeping near each other, seemed to always want to be right next to each other (and not being aggressive about asking for attention from each other), comfortable in each other’s space, etc.

[Wick & Fable]

Mixed signals are definitely a natural part of bonding. It sounds like you’re keeping in mind judging when may or may not be appropriate to intervene, which is good. With bonding, I find it most helpful to look at the big picture (i.e. across days) rather than individual behaviors. Just like with two human children figuring out their relationship, some days will be better than others.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[DanaNM]

It’s very encouraging that you are starting to see grooming from both sides and relaxing near each other! It really sounds like they are getting there, and are just working out some final details of their relationship. Fighting in the beginning of sessions is more encouraging than at the end, because it usually indicates they are just getting a bit reacquainted with each other. That also means it might help to start doing even longer sessions. If you have the time, I think it might be time to try some really long sessions, maybe 6-8 hours or so.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[BunsBunsBuns]

So this morning – I brought them out at 9 to the same spot they were in yesterday – lots of space, piles of hay, their neutral toys…

There was about 10-15 min of mutual grooming right away – I was really encouraged.

Then about 20 min in, they both started hopping around, and both tried to go under a box lid I had leaned against the wall (I don’t have any hidey boxes but thought they might want some privacy to sleep since it’s during the day – clearly that was a mistake although there weren’t any issues with it yesterday). They got into a full on bunny tornado, and separated for a second but then went for each other again – I had to get in there with my hands and got bit pretty bad (Tipper bit me – didn’t break the skin, but he held on which I thought seemed extra aggressive).

I immediately put them together in a small laundry basket on top of the dryer for about 10 min. I haven’t been stressing them before sessions now per Wick…

I removed the box lid that seemed to have created the issue and they’re back right next to each other and Sweetie may have made a move to groom but not grooming like they were before.

Has anyone had experience with this type of fighting when everything else seems to be going so well? Any tips to get over the hump or just more time?

Do you think I should just separate them after they fight and try to pet them separately? Or keep stressing them after fighting?

[BunsBunsBuns]

Oh and thanks Dana – just saw your most recent reply. They were together 7 hours yesterday and I’m going to go for 8 hours today. It does seem like it’s helping but these occasional fights are freaking me out.

[Wick & Fable]

I’d say since they are not consistent in their positive interactions (ex. Boxing), it’s not surprising that object/hideys may still trigger some territorial aggression. Depending on the severity of the fight, it might be good to take a one day break to let tensions die down. I would also remove some of those objects from the space and not add a thing until things are more consistent positive.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[BunsBunsBuns]

Okay – I’ll make sure not to add anything new.

There has been some mutual grooming since the fight, and they seem to want to be close to each other still, so I think I’ll keep going unless they start seeming cranky with each other.

Thanks for all the help!!

[DanaNM]

Yes hides can cause issues sometimes! Sometimes they help, sometimes they hurt (especially if one buns feels cornered), so there’s a bit of experimenting that happens. I’ve found they can help in cases where one bun is getting chased a lot because it can help break up the line of sight and end the chase, but when both want to be in the hide it sometimes can make things tense.

I think since they went back to “normal” once the offending box lid was gone you’re good to keep going! I think sometimes buns have to get to that point where they realize “oh… this other bunny REALLY isn’t going away. i guess we better sort things out for good.”

Glad that bite didn’t break the skin! During a past bonding attempt (I was going for a quad… it didn’t work out LOL) Cooper bit me on the wrist in a spot that resulted in the side of my hand being numb for about 6 months. Lesson learned on wearing gloves!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[BunsBunsBuns]

So after this morning’s scuffle, they went back to seemingly being pretty chill – then towards the end of the day they got into two more bunny tornados 😢😢😢 which I’m assuming were Tipper being territorial over most of the area they’re in – he would be grooming her in the corner she’s been sitting in, but then when she’d hop around it seemed like it triggered the fights both time (happened super fast). I removed Tipper to the dreaded laundry basket both times for a time out (since he was instigating…).

Now I’m just trying to end things on a good note – Sweetie has already groom e Tipper since the last fight so I think I’m going to call it a day soon here…

Sweetie also seems to be peeing on stuff so I don’t know if that’s triggering aggression? If I should be washing everything (they’re on towels) between sessions?

Any advice for the next few days? I removed all the hay too in case Tipper was food  guarding, but they have been doing soooo well with no fighting up until the last two days 😢

I’m planning on just roughing it out and doing another long session the next two days to see if I can make a breakthrough, unless you guys have other advice.

Even though the fights are intense, they don’t seem afraid of each other afterwards…

[DanaNM]

So, it could be that the space is becoming less and less neutral, especially if they are peeing on the blankets and you aren’t replacing them. I think either swapping the towels or washing them between would be a good move.

It also could be that maybe they aren’t quite ready for super long sessions. Or a combo of the two! Is there a brand new completely neutral spot you might take them to this weekend?

Keep in mind you’ve only been working with them for a few weeks total, so the most important thing is probably patience!

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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