nueture questions

[rosalie68]

i took jack to the vet on wednessday for a regular check up since he hasnt had one yet. while i was there i asked about nueturing him. the vet says he is old enough to be nuetured but said she had to have the nueture talk with me to discuss the risks and the procedures etc. she has never lost a bunny but she said they are very delicate and its very risky with them. she explained to me that since they are prey animals they can die just from being scared and that she had saw rabbits do fine during surgery and then die afterwards. she explained that she hasnt had one die that she did the surgery on but just at a previous hospital that she had worked at. she said it was no apparent reason other than just being scared. well, that kind of worries me with jack. he is a dwarf and very hyper and shy around people. he was so scared going to vet that i felt really bad for the poor guy. he doesnt come to me yet to pet him like my other bunny does and it just seems that this is his personality. has anyone ever experience a nueture that ended this way? im very confident with this vet and she specializes in rabbits. she said we just had to have the talk. also she said that she uses glue instead of stitches which is good so they cant pull them out. when i asked how long he should be in his cage she said i didnt have to limit any activites for him. she also says she uses lots of pain meds for them so they arent hurting. i thought we were supposed to leave them in their cage for a few days so they could heal. is this just according to how the vet does the surgery?

 

im also upset because charlie still has his lung issues. they did an xray at the vet and he looked about the same. now he is on baytril and the antihistamine to see how he does on it. im supposed to keep him on a week and if he is doing better to take him off a week and then back on. she insisted that we not do the culture because it wont really tell her anything since rabbits have lots of natural bacteria. she said she wouldnt know which one was causing the problem by doing that. i also found out that the meds we had last time werent really 105 dollars. someone made a mistake. they were only 15. glad we caught that!! they fixed my bill to compensate for the mistake. so, until charlie gets everything under control she wont nueture him. she said he is too high of a risk with breathing problems. it sux because i wanted to get them fixed so they could live together in the nic condo that im going to be building them. i hope he gets better soon. when he does finally get nuetured i think im going to be scared to death. has anyone else had a rabbit with snuffles and got them nuetured? i ask because he may be on and off meds forever to control this. thanks!!

 

kim

[bunnytowne]

So it’s Charlie who needs the neutering?   I would wait a little with him til his sniffles gets under control. 

Wow this vet sure is something.  I dont’ agree with her about the culture not being done.  Or that she wouldn’t know which bacteria is the cause of the problem.   Strange. 

Well thats just my thoughts on it.   She sure seemed to do a good job of scaring you with the neuter situation.   None of my vets ever said anything like that to me about neuter or spay.  Seems like she is trying to scare you off.  As with anyone or any pet surgery is always a risk.  If the risks were so high and death occurred frequently then the doctors wouldn’t be doing them. Your bun should do ok with the surgery.  Some of the more expensive vets do a blood culture first to see if there may be any reactions to the anesthesia.  None of mine had that done tho.  And they did fine.   I only heard of 1 incident with a neuter or spay out of all the BBers we have who have had the spneuter done.  So those odds are real good your bun will go thru with no problems.

Hmm  I might try another vet due to the culture comment.   Then that is just me.   Someone else may feel different and us BBers are most likely busy right now with hangovers ( teehee)  and family and such. 

I am sure more comments will appear in a few days.   Me  I am a computer geek nerd whatever and this seems to be my social life  lol.  I don’t mind.

Alright take care now.

[Monkeybun]

My Monkey is a very high strung netherland dwarf, and she came through her spay just fine. I wouldn’t worry about Jack too much. With Charlie, I’d have to say wait til he gets better, and if you must, take him to another vet to get a 2nd opinion about the culture.

[rosalie68]

they both need to be nuetured. charlie is dominant and so he humps jack a lot and jack, well, i think he is going through puberty right now lol. i thought it was strange also to not do a culture. but she is saying something about making in incision in his neck and swabbing down in there or doing some sort of wash and testing that bacteria. i dsont really understand it. i thought they took a culture from their nose. she did say that she definately agrees with spaying and nueturing all bunnies but just wanted me to understand how risky it was. but yes, it did scare the crap out of me. it seems that everyone elses bunnies do fine. i dont think they do the blood test here and my bunnies have probably just reached the 6 months age or are very close to it. this is the only place i know that specializes in bunnies. they also take care credit which is helping out since charlie has these issues. i had taken charlie to 2 other vets that claimed to deal with bunnies and clearly they didnt have a clue. i dont know where i would go to get a second opinion. i definately dont want charlie getting an incision in his neck to get a culture! im probably going to start calling around and asking about a culture and seeing how other vets would go about this problem. the other thing is that i wont have any money to get him to a vet without using the credit card until the end of january when my school money comes in. does anyone know if i can get that vpi insurance even though charlie is already having issues? or is there a way to just leave that part out? do they check the vets that i have went to see if he does in fact have a pre existing problem? thanks for the help!

kim

monkeybun- are all dwarfs considered netherland dwarfs? thats what they put on his paperwork.

[Monkeybun]

No, not all dwarfs are nethies, there are dwarf breeds of alot of breeds.

[BinkyBunny]

As far as the insurance goes: Unfortunately because he is already having issues, it would be considered pre-existing and therefore the insurance would not cover it.

What you have said does concern me. Though I am not a vet, and in the end you will have to go with what you trust, but there are a few things that do make me say…hmmmm?

I have never had a vet say it is okay for a bunny to run around like normal right after regardless of the kind of stitching. Though allowing some movement within a larger space like an xpen was fine, just allowing him to be able to jump up and jump down or zooming and binkying has been the concern. Could it be possible you misunderstood what she meant? That just seems odd to me.

I agree with BT – I am also concerned that she said a culture won’t indicate anything because of a rabbit’s natural bacteria – please see http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/culture.html

I agree your vet did a very good job with scaring you.. To quote the House Rabbit Societies words about the dangers of spaying/neutering. “Spaying and neutering for rabbits has become a safe procedure when performed by experienced rabbit veterinarians…..Using isofluorene as the anesthetic and appropriate surgical and after-surgery techniques, spaying and neutering of rabbits is as safe as for any other animal.”

It is true that a vet has to know what they are doing when using anesthesia on a rabbit. Rabbits have a high heart rate and their system is just a bit more on the “speedy” side if I can put it in the most layman terms and so they do have to watch the fine line between too much and not enough anesthesia . An experienced rabbit savvy vet who took the extra training for this and has good amount of experience will not have a problem with it.

And though I would want a vet to inform me of any risk for any surgery, there shouldn’t be any more risk than with any other animal if the vet is confident in what they are doing with the rabbit. So it does worry me that she chose to take the extra cautious approach to talk to you about it in the way she did – but maybe that just how she does it. Maybe she would have the “talk” if were a cat or dog too. ??

I do agree though with one point – I don’t think you can safely put him through surgery until he has healed from his upper respiratory infection. He needs to be healthy going into it.

I don’t know…I’m not a vet…so in the end you have to go with who you trust. It looks like you have already searched other vets prior to this one.

Not to be a debbie downer doubter but what makes you believe that this vet is rabbit savvy? Not that she isn’t, just wanting to find out how that conclusion was made.

If you have any doubts here are a list of questions you can ask that may help you feel more confident (we hope) http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/spay-neuter.html#good-questions

[Beka27]

In my experience, vets who appear “too cautious” are sometimes trying to cover their behinds b/c in reality they are not as experienced/confident/comfortable as they should be. This might not be the case here… maybe she is just an overly cautious person?

I also agree that he needs to be healthy before undergoing surgery, but I find it hard to believe he’d have to be on meds for the rest of his life… did she tell you that?

[rosalie68]

i thought some of the things she was saying were a little odd too and thats why i came on here to see what u all thought about it. i asked her how long jack had to stay in his cage to heal and she said he doesnt. she said i dont need to limit any activity for him. ive read so many posts on here saying to limit them to jumping and running around that i thought it was strange for her to have said that to me.

she did pretty much tell me that charlie may have to be on meds forever. she kept saying how so many rabbits get pastuerella and alot of them have to be on meds on and off. like 3 weeks out of the month they are on meds. she said its almost impossible to get rid of it. it seems to me that she had pretty much just decided that he would be on meds and so we would see how much he would need to be on them. she tells me baytril pretty much gets rid of everything and that it would be very expensive to get the test done for the bacteria and that basically it wouldnt help us figure out what was going on with him. i still dont understand the incision in the throat thing. im going to be calling other places around here and figuring out what to do next and how much they charge for the culture etc. even though it seems this vet has possibly given up on charlie and assuming he has pastuerella, i wont give up on him. i love him.

i was recommended to this vet by a woman at my sons school who has a bunny. she seemed to have a lot of experience with rabbits. they also claim she is a specialist for rabbits. she was definately way better with charlie than the other 2. but just like you guys i have been questioning how much she really knows.

i figured he had to not be sick to get the surgery but i just wondered since this lady thinks he will possibly always be on meds.

i have also thought that it was safe to get rabbits fixed. when its your own rabbit you do worry about it and especially if someone is saying they could die from a heart attack from being scared. i understand that things do happen. if its going to be a 0.00001% chance that he will die then why scare me like that?

thanks so much for the advice.

kim

[RabbitPam]

I’m inclined to agree with Beka, that she is covering herself thoroughly. I wonder if she had a problem in the past and is obligated to completely inform a client about all the risks. That can happen with human doctors too.

Definitely agree that he must be completely clear of anything wrong before going under anesthesia. But I think it’s time to scout around for yet another rabbit savvy vet. Difficult, I know, but you can look on the House Rabbit Society’s website for listings of recommended vets geographically and just say you want a second opinion of this vet asks. You don’t want to rush Charlie into it, but it could be you want a vet with more confidence or a different point of view.

[BinkyBunny]

I posted in your other thread that was exclusively about the snuffles, but in addressing what you said here about your vet considering it Pasteurella, here is a section from the Dana Krempels article/link that you may find interesting: 

---

“Why Bother with a Culture and Sensitivity Test?
One cautionary note. Some veterinarians who are not as experienced with rabbits as they are with cats and dogs will take one look at a rabbit with “snuffles” or other infection and proclaim that the problem is caused by Pasteruella multocida. Although this bacterial species is not uncommonly carried by rabbits, please do not let anyone convince you that your rabbit’s problem is caused by Pasteurella unless that diagnosis is confirmed via culture and sensitivity test! Not only are some strains of Pasteurellaresistant to commonly prescribed antibiotics such as Trimethoprim sulfa, Baytril (enrofloxacin) and even ciprofloxacin, but infections in rabbits also can be caused by even more resilient strains of bacteria, such as Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Bordetella bronchiseptica, Staphylococcus aureus, and others. Without a culture and sensitivity test to positively I.D. the pathogen, you could not only delay your rabbit’s return to good health, but also be throwing good money after bad by treating with an antibiotic that is not effective against the particular strain of bacteria your bunny has.

---

I also agree about checking out other options. I know it is a pain to try and find another vet, but it seems like this one has already done what she feels comfortable with doing.  Seems as if she could offer better care than the other vets you saw for general care – she may be very good based on what’s happened with other peoples bunnies, but with this ongoing infection, you will be needing more than just the basics, so someone who is also rabbit-savvy but has a different mindset about it may be of better help. 

I also recommend that if you do use the list from the HRS and you find a vet clinic near you that you make sure that the VET that the HRS list recommended is still with the vet clinic as things can change from the time the list was last updated). 

And be sure to ask any new vet the screening questions, I posted the link to above.  

[Beka27]

What Binkybunny posted in blue is exactly the route you need to take. I’m not knowledgeable about all the ins and outs and specifics of the different infections, but I do know it’s a waste of time and money to medicate (possibly forever?!) with a med that might be of no use against the bacteria that is actually causing the problem. You can medicate forever and it will never go away… or do a test and maybe medicate for a month and be done with it… It makes sense to spend the money on the culture. Vets will usually prescribe a med (like Baytril) at the beginning as part of their “therapeutic diagnosis”… basically meaning, “I don’t know if this will help, but let’s give it a try.” Either it helps and problem solved, or it doesn’t and in a couple weeks time with no improvement they decide, “Wait, this med is not working, we need to figure out what WILL work…”

You wouldn’t settle for a doctor telling you that you had to be on a med for the rest of your life with nothing backing the diagnosis, so you can’t settle for that with your sweet baby boy…

[rosalie68]

i totally agree with both of you. i think if the baytril was going to work then he wouldnt have gotten fluid back into his lungs after being off his diuretic, and he has basically been on baytril for over a month now. he pretty much seems to be the same to me. maybe a little better but not enough. i dont think he should have fluid in his chest at all and his airways shouldnt be inflamed or irritated. if i had to pay over a hundred dollars to get a culture done that would be fine. and especially considering that the meds have already costed me over that amount and havent cleared up the problem.

i read that section in the article a few days ago when i got the link on the post for the allergies. that had me thinking that something wasnt right. she does call it pastuerella when in fact it could be other bacteria causing all of this. the other thing that bothered me is that she doesnt need to see him for a whole month. why wouldnt she need to see him sooner if he is developing fluid around his lungs again. ugh!

well, i dont have too many choices around here as far as vets for exotic pets or rabbits. i had originally looked them up on the house rabbit society link and they are pretty far from here. a few hours. i did find a vet that was recommended by some rabbit organization and that happened to be the last vet that didnt see anything wrong with charlie and clearly didnt know much about rabbits and this vet that he goes to now. i have been calling around everywhere and asking all sorts of questions before even considering having either of my rabbits seen. ill keep trying.

if anyone knows of any other ways to find a rabbit specialist or has a website that can search one, my zip code is 52241 im in iowa.
thanks for your help i appreciate it!

kim

[BinkyBunny]

 Well i found this list but really this is pretty old and it is based on comments?  So even if the vets were still there you’d have to go through your screening questions. 

Link edited out

(NOTE: if one of the vets or the vet places from that list is one that you just saw or previously had seen just let me know and I’ll delete the link. from this post)

Another idea is you could call and ask to speak to the rabbit-savvy vet that is too far and ask if she/he knows of a rabbit-savvy vet closer to you.   The person who answers the phone may not know and be of no help, so it would be best to leave a message for the vet.   

[rosalie68]

your right the post is old but i somehow got to it too lol. i tracked down 2 of the vets on there. i went to [Edited out] first. he is the one that said charlie seems to be fine and it was my choice whether to try baytril and see if he got any better but he didnt see anything wrong with him. [Edited out] is the woman that he sees now. i dont know where the other 2 people are working now. thanks for the help. i think i will call places that are farther away and see if they have anyone that they recommend or possibly what they would suggest that i do as far as a treatment or tests with charlie. i hate that i have to wait until monday. im very thankful for all the help you have given me.

kim

[Beka27]

I took out the specific names from your post. We can’t post negative reviews of vets on this site for legal reasons.

If you can’t find anyone that can help within your immediate area, you may need to travel a bit further out. Like someone mentioned above, the closer vet might be fine for your basic, regular care, but in a situation like this I hope you can find a second opinion. Is the vet you’ve been going to willing to do a culture at your request? If you insist upon it?

[rosalie68]

oh ok sorry about the name thing. i think if i insisted on a culture she would do one for me. i was worried about the incision. im probably calling her on monday and also a few other places to see what other vets would do in his situation. i think she may have to go into his chest bc im thinking he has a lower respiratory infection instead of upper? ill keep u updated with what happens tomorow.

kim

[Author]

Messages