Not sure if I have made a mistake?

[Deleted User]

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I am wondering if I have made a mistake here. I am due to pick up my little doe on Sunday morning to bond with my 6-month-old neutered male. She is a baby. I was going to get her mother who is 8 months and unspayed, but felt it would be much difficult to handle a fully-grown doe that has just had a litter and unsprayed then say a baby female.

However, I am now reading that it’s easier to bond an unspayed adult doe as you know her hormonal levels more than an undeveloped baby.

This is very stressful as you just don’t know what is going to happen. I really wanted the mother as I loved her when I saw her but was put off by the fact that it may be more difficult given she has just had a litter and unspayed. The lady still has her however I have reserved her daughter. I could maybe change this….but I don’t know. 

She must be getting fed up of me changing my mind!

[Muchelle]

I’m sure more experienced members can elaborate more on the topic, but I can tell you there can be no true bond between buns that aren’t spayed/neutered & kept apart until hormones have flushed out.

So, whatever you choose, you will have to desex both buns. If you like the mom, why not?

[Sirius&Luna]

You will need to spay whichever one you get, and it’s a gamble with either really. But there is no real reason why they won’t successfully bond if you follow the correct steps, including spaying. You shouldn’t bond either unspayed, (and you should spay for health reasons anyway) so I’m not sure that what you’re reading is accurate.

Personally, I would choose the mother as a. you can spay her immediately, so you won’t have to wait 5 + months to bond them, just a month or two and b. She’s an adult so you can see what her adult personality is.

[Deleted User]

Exactly, the plan was to get the baby and keep them apart for a few weeks and let Finn sniff around her cage when his out, after she has settled in. Then maybe introduce them in the bath (no water of course) as I was told this would be ok with a baby by a rescue, and it makes sense how it could be. Then get her Spayed as soon as she was old enough at 5 Months.
However, after what I have read today, that it would be easier with an adult as you know what their character is like, plus with the fact that if anything goes wrong pre bonding may stop them bonding AFTR a spay. The lady that has the mother says she isn’t very hormonal and was reluctant to breed. Plus I could get her spayed straight away.
Sirius – That is just what she said. The lady has also said that she would take Myrtle back should anything go wrong.

[Deleted User]

I am taking Myrtle (the mother) 🙂

[Muchelle]

Posted By Emma on 1/23/2018 7:42 AM

I am taking Myrtle (the mother) 🙂

Yay! it was clear you had fallen in love with her <3 Also, don't forget pics!!!

[Sirius&Luna]

I’m glad you made a decision you’re happy with!

We’ll all be here to support you through the bonding process!

[Deleted User]

Thank you!

I am going to need the support — first time I have done this.

I collect her on Friday and the plan will be to put cardboard around the bottom of her crate for the first 1 / 2 nights while she settles in. I will give her a week before Spaying her so she gets some time to know her new surroundings. 

After a day or two i will remove the cardboard and I will try and block off her crate with NIC Grids so they can see one another but not touch. I will keep things like this until she has been spayed. 

After Spaying I will remove the Grids and let them sniff each other through the bars and keep it like this for a few months until she has recovered. 

I have ordered a Pen that was going to be used a temporary base for the two buns until the Bespoke wooden one arrived. But looks like this may not be needed so i will use it for Myrtle to run around is as she wont be litter trained like finn. 

So my question is, regarding exercise. Finn is free range when i am around so how can i do this without them touching? I can either cut Finns out time and alternate them. Or keep Finn in the hall way while Myrle is in the pen in the lounge. Its going to be tight until they are bonded lol 

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By Emma on 1/23/2018 10:26 AM

Thank you!

I am going to need the support — first time I have done this.

I collect her on Friday and the plan will be to put cardboard around the bottom of her crate for the first 1 / 2 nights while she settles in. I will give her a week before Spaying her so she gets some time to know her new surroundings. 

After a day or two i will remove the cardboard and I will try and block off her crate with NIC Grids so they can see one another but not touch. I will keep things like this until she has been spayed. 

After Spaying I will remove the Grids and let them sniff each other through the bars and keep it like this for a few months until she has recovered. 

I have ordered a Pen that was going to be used a temporary base for the two buns until the Bespoke wooden one arrived. But looks like this may not be needed so i will use it for Myrtle to run around is as she wont be litter trained like finn. 

So my question is, regarding exercise. Finn is free range when i am around so how can i do this without them touching? I can either cut Finns out time and alternate them. Or keep Finn in the hall way while Myrle is in the pen in the lounge. Its going to be tight until they are bonded lol 

You cannot let them sniff each other through bars. If they’re able to sniff each other, then they’re able to also fight if they decide they want too. 

[Sirius&Luna]

To be honest, depending how she adjusts, I would probably leave her the entire week without seeing Finn, just so she has some time to settle in. Of course, play it by ear, but he might be upset at the intruder (although less likely with boys) and his stomping and sulking might be distressing to a bunny in a brand new environment!

I understand the exercise problem! At the moment i’m cycling three bunnies exercise time, and none of them are getting as much as I would like. I would alternate them, but if he wouldn’t be put out by the hallway then that could work as well You might have to play around a bit at the beginning to see what works best for you and them.

[Deleted User]

Posted By sarahthegemini on 1/23/2018 10:30 AM

Posted By Emma on 1/23/2018 10:26 AM

Thank you!

I am going to need the support — first time I have done this.

I collect her on Friday and the plan will be to put cardboard around the bottom of her crate for the first 1 / 2 nights while she settles in. I will give her a week before Spaying her so she gets some time to know her new surroundings. 

After a day or two i will remove the cardboard and I will try and block off her crate with NIC Grids so they can see one another but not touch. I will keep things like this until she has been spayed. 

After Spaying I will remove the Grids and let them sniff each other through the bars and keep it like this for a few months until she has recovered. 

I have ordered a Pen that was going to be used a temporary base for the two buns until the Bespoke wooden one arrived. But looks like this may not be needed so i will use it for Myrtle to run around is as she wont be litter trained like finn. 

So my question is, regarding exercise. Finn is free range when i am around so how can i do this without them touching? I can either cut Finns out time and alternate them. Or keep Finn in the hall way while Myrle is in the pen in the lounge. Its going to be tight until they are bonded lol 

You cannot let them sniff each other through bars. If they’re able to sniff each other, then they’re able to also fight if they decide they want too. 

I did say after her Spay. 

[Deleted User]

Posted By Sirius&Luna on 1/23/2018 10:34 AM

To be honest, depending how she adjusts, I would probably leave her the entire week without seeing Finn, just so she has some time to settle in. Of course, play it by ear, but he might be upset at the intruder (although less likely with boys) and his stomping and sulking might be distressing to a bunny in a brand new environment!

I understand the exercise problem! At the moment i’m cycling three bunnies exercise time, and none of them are getting as much as I would like. I would alternate them, but if he wouldn’t be put out by the hallway then that could work as well You might have to play around a bit at the beginning to see what works best for you and them.

Ill play it by ear. Finn is a chilled bunny but I could keep the cardboard up a week. But Ill need to get her Spayed after the week, weather she is ready or not lol.

[Deleted User]

He will smell her on me though — is that going to be an issue?

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By Emma on 1/23/2018 11:21 AM

Posted By sarahthegemini on 1/23/2018 10:30 AM

Posted By Emma on 1/23/2018 10:26 AM

Thank you!

I am going to need the support — first time I have done this.

I collect her on Friday and the plan will be to put cardboard around the bottom of her crate for the first 1 / 2 nights while she settles in. I will give her a week before Spaying her so she gets some time to know her new surroundings. 

After a day or two i will remove the cardboard and I will try and block off her crate with NIC Grids so they can see one another but not touch. I will keep things like this until she has been spayed. 

After Spaying I will remove the Grids and let them sniff each other through the bars and keep it like this for a few months until she has recovered. 

I have ordered a Pen that was going to be used a temporary base for the two buns until the Bespoke wooden one arrived. But looks like this may not be needed so i will use it for Myrtle to run around is as she wont be litter trained like finn. 

So my question is, regarding exercise. Finn is free range when i am around so how can i do this without them touching? I can either cut Finns out time and alternate them. Or keep Finn in the hall way while Myrle is in the pen in the lounge. Its going to be tight until they are bonded lol 

You cannot let them sniff each other through bars. If they’re able to sniff each other, then they’re able to also fight if they decide they want too. 

I did say after her Spay. 

It doesn’t matter. You can’t let them physically touch each other when you’re pre bonding. 

[Mikey]

My Badger lost a chunk of skin from being able to reach through the bars before my trio was officially bonded. Seconding that you really shouldnt want to risk it if you can help it.

Them smelling one another on your clothes could be an issue. Some rabbits freak out, some become angry, and some dont care at all. Youll have to play that by ear, sadly.

[Deleted User]

Hold on wait a second. I have ready on rabbit blogs like Rabbit Society that when they lay together through the bars that is normally a good sign to start bonding. I am confused as i am hearing different stories. It doesn’t make much sense to me to just let them see one another for the first time when they actually meet psychically. To me that is asking for trouble as that can be quite a shock. Surely its better to build up the bond. They can do far much damage to one another without bars between them.

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By Emma on 1/23/2018 3:10 PM

Hold on wait a second. I have ready on rabbit blogs like Rabbit Society that when they lay together through the bars that is normally a good sign to start bonding. I am confused as i am hearing different stories. It doesn’t make much sense to me to just let them see one another for the first time when they actually meet psychically. To me that is asking for trouble as that can be quite a shock. Surely its better to build up the bond. They can do far much damage to one another without bars between them.

No, you keep them unable to touch one another whilst you commence pre bonding. You need to pre bond for at least a month after hormones have settled. You do a physical introduction after sufficient pre bonding. They should be able to see and smell one another but not touch. 

Why would a physical introduction be a shock, providing you’ve gone through the pre bonding process properly? 

[Deleted User]

Posted By sarahthegemini on 1/23/2018 3:17 PM

Posted By Emma on 1/23/2018 3:10 PM

Hold on wait a second. I have ready on rabbit blogs like Rabbit Society that when they lay together through the bars that is normally a good sign to start bonding. I am confused as i am hearing different stories. It doesn’t make much sense to me to just let them see one another for the first time when they actually meet psychically. To me that is asking for trouble as that can be quite a shock. Surely its better to build up the bond. They can do far much damage to one another without bars between them.

No, you keep them unable to touch one another whilst you commence pre bonding. You need to pre bond for at least a month after hormones have settled. You do a physical introduction after sufficient pre bonding. They should be able to see and smell one another but not touch. 

Why would a physical introduction be a shock, providing you’ve gone through the pre bonding process properly? 

I think we are getting a bit confused. I said once she has been Spayed and healed (maybe after a couple of months), there will be NIC Grids protecting her area so they can see one another and not get too close. What I mean is that they need to be able to see one another before a psychical introduction. I am just going to take it step by step as we have no idea how either will react. They will be in the same room so they are going to smell one another as the crate she will be in is to big to go in the hallway. 
Everyone has had different experiences and its the different stories that has stressed me out as to what bunny to get. I was going to get the baby based on some stories, and then decided a Doe his age will be better because the spay can begin straight away. 

So all I can do is play by ear as no bunny is the same. 

[DanaNM]

Posted By Emma on 1/23/2018 3:10 PM

Hold on wait a second. I have ready on rabbit blogs like Rabbit Society that when they lay together through the bars that is normally a good sign to start bonding. I am confused as i am hearing different stories. It doesn’t make much sense to me to just let them see one another for the first time when they actually meet psychically. To me that is asking for trouble as that can be quite a shock. Surely its better to build up the bond. They can do far much damage to one another without bars between them.

The idea with pre-bonding is that they can see and smell each other, but not physically touch. I use an x-pen with a buffer space of about 8 inches in between (with things weighing it down so they can’t move it around). 

At first they may be more likely to fight through the fence than they would be in a bonding session because the bonding session will be in neutral territory, whereas their play areas in your home will not be neutral. So they are more likely to get defensive and nippy towards each other.  

They may still lay near each other on opposite sides of the fence, but shouldn’t be able to touch noses, that’s too close. 

Wild rabbits would learn of another rabbit in their territory through smell long before they would come into contact, so the idea is to try to mimic that process and have them realize the other rabbit isn’t a threat. 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Deleted User]

Posted By DanaNM on 1/23/2018 3:34 PM

Posted By Emma on 1/23/2018 3:10 PM

Hold on wait a second. I have ready on rabbit blogs like Rabbit Society that when they lay together through the bars that is normally a good sign to start bonding. I am confused as i am hearing different stories. It doesn’t make much sense to me to just let them see one another for the first time when they actually meet psychically. To me that is asking for trouble as that can be quite a shock. Surely its better to build up the bond. They can do far much damage to one another without bars between them.

The idea with pre-bonding is that they can see and smell each other, but not physically touch. I use an x-pen with a buffer space of about 8 inches in between (with things weighing it down so they can’t move it around). 

At first they may be more likely to fight through the fence than they would be in a bonding session because the bonding session will be in neutral territory, whereas their play areas in your home will not be neutral. So they are more likely to get defensive and nippy towards each other.  

They may still lay near each other on opposite sides of the fence, but shouldn’t be able to touch noses, that’s too close. 

Wild rabbits would learn of another rabbit in their territory through smell long before they would come into contact, so the idea is to try to mimic that process and have them realize the other rabbit isn’t a threat. 

Thank you for clearing that up! Thats fine as I will be using a buffer with the NIC Grids, but I will use cardboard around her crate for the first week so they can’t see one another while she settles in. I am hoping to get her spayed at the end of next week. But I need to see how she is first as I haven’t even got her yet. I will set her crate up tomorrow so Finn gets use to it just being there.

[DanaNM]

You’re welcome, sounds like a good plan.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[sarahthegemini]

Sorry Emma yes here has been some confusion and crossed wires but what you’ve explained now sounds great. They should see and smell but not touch.

The trouble with bonding is as you say – so many people have different experiences, it’s hard to find a ‘one technique fits all’ For some, a large space for introductions is a hindrance. For others, too small a space creates problems for example. I certainly went against the grain when bonding my two.

It sounds like you’ve done plenty of research. All I would advise is, have a rough idea in mind as to how you’re going to proceed but be open to changing methods if one doesn’t seem to be working. And try not to get too stressed (easier said than done!)

[Deleted User]

Posted By sarahthegemini on 1/24/2018 5:14 AM

Sorry Emma yes here has been some confusion and crossed wires but what you’ve explained now sounds great. They should see and smell but not touch.

The trouble with bonding is as you say – so many people have different experiences, it’s hard to find a ‘one technique fits all’ For some, a large space for introductions is a hindrance. For others, too small a space creates problems for example. I certainly went against the grain when bonding my two.

It sounds like you’ve done plenty of research. All I would advise is, have a rough idea in mind as to how you’re going to proceed but be open to changing methods if one doesn’t seem to be working. And try not to get too stressed (easier said than done!)

I think I am going to set up a thread with day to day updates on the progress with pictures and video 

I feel it may help others as well.

Its been very stressful! I have spent a lot of time and money on buns in the past few months. Hopefully when this has all been sorted I can go back to a little more self care 

[Sirius&Luna]

Have you read some other people’s bonding diaries Emma? I found it really useful, and it’s great that you’re going to set up your own. You do have to go back a bit to find them though…

In fact, something I’ve been thinking for a while is that it would be really useful to have a pinned thread that linked to a few bonding journals… FLs, is that possible?

[Sirius&Luna]

Here are a few I found for someone recently, but there’s plenty more!

Mark pretty recently bonded two bunnies – they were quite an easy bond, but there was some fur pulling and aggression to get out of the way, and it includes good advice from experienced members
https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/163216/Default.aspx

Here’s mine, although sadly after a bout of stasis I’m going to need to rebond them:
https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/162731/Default.aspx

Here’s a bond that failed despite best efforts:
https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/162560/Default.aspx

And here’s Dana’s tricky but eventually successful bond:
https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/158740/Default.aspx

[Deleted User]

I collect her tomorrow afternoon, yay!

I was setting up her crate yesterday evening and Finn wasn’t that interested in it, and it probably would have smelt of rabbit from the last one, until I had cleaned it. In fact i noticed he retreated back into his hutch and just sat there. Is this a sign of things to come lol.

[Deleted User]

Not necessarily, as bunnies have their own individual scents.

[Deleted User]

Posted By Asriel and Bombur on 1/25/2018 10:57 AM

Not necessarily, as bunnies have their own individual scents.

Rabbits can smell other rabbits is what i mean.

[Deleted User]

That’s why I said each rabbit has their own scent. He might not have been a fan of the previous bun, but maybe he’ll smell the new bun and take a big interest. Asriel smells Bombur and always seems to want to go find him or whatever (they aren’t bonded yet). But if I touch other buns, he like flips out and starts thumping and will huddle in one spot in his cage until I thoroughly wash my hands.That’s why I said he could have a very different reaction tomorrow.

[Deleted User]

Ah ok! It could also be that he scared himself by going behind the kitchen units. His nose was twitching quite quickly after that (or it could have been the cage). Who knows lol.

[Deleted User]

silly buns do have a way of scaring themselves xD

[Deleted User]

My collection of Myrtle has been pushed back as the ladies little girl has been rushed to hospital. So not sure when I will collect her at the moment as she has other things going on!

[DanaNM]

Oh no! Hope she makes a speedy recovery!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Deleted User]

I got Myrtle this morning! She appears to be settling very nicely if not quite shy. She is already using her litter tray for both wee’s and poops (obviously there are scatter poops with her being un spayed). But this gives me hope that she may be easier to train.

I have put cardboard around the bottom half of her crate, and kept Finn in his cage most of the day while she recovers from the journey. Plus Finn had to have his Vaccinations today.

I have let Finn out this evening, and so far even though they can’t see or touch it appears to be going ok. Finn is very interested in her create but not in a territorial way. His not pooping around her crate, or making any sounds. His just really intrigued which didn’t surprise me with him. He will stretch up to try and see over the top of the cardboard and sit by her crate cleaning himself. She is also interested but again not in a territorial manner.

There are small gaps where they can get a small glimpse of one another, but not enough to cause damage. She will lay and also sit and clean herself near where Finn sits.

Its very very early days yet but I am hoping they like one another.

[BinkyBunny]

This is a great start.  You are doing well.  I am glad the misunderstanding about sniffing through the pen bars was cleared up, as yes that gap is important. A long while back – one of my bunnies bit my other bunny’s lip through the bar (as one bunny stuck her nose and lips out to sniff the other.)  They can move an xpen over a few inches.   It required a trip to the emergency vet.  So it’s always a good idea to create that gap until you can trust them. Sounds like that is all set.   Also, sounds like she is settling in well if she is already lounging and grooming herself.   

Also — I understand “stressful”.  It is stressful.  When I would bond, I would have to have my husband take over at times (as he is much more chill than I am).  Most of us here can relate to feeling stressed by the unknowns of bonding.  

Just remember, take a deep breath.   

OH, and congrats on your new fuzzy family member!  Any pics?

[Deleted User]

Sure I took one today as he was pretty spooked after the journey home. But I will take more when shes settled 🙂

Myrtle

Finn looking at me after snooping around her create 🙂

[Deleted User]

She’s beautiful!!! I love and adore blue eyed bunnies!

[BinkyBunny]

Squeee! Fin is so cute!! And Myrtle is stunning!

[Deleted User]

She is stunning, Finn more a cutie pie 🙂

She is very very shy though. I am not quite use to shy bunnies as all mine have been placid like Finn. Her little nose is going like the clappers all the time. Understandable i suppose being a new environment.

I have to wait for her milk to dry up before spaying so around 2 weeks to a months.

[sarahthegemini]

They are going to make such a gorgeous duo! 

[sarahthegemini]

They are going to make such a gorgeous duo! 

[Deleted User]

Here are some more of Myrtle

[Deleted User]

This is what I am looking at a lot of the time. Finn just sat looking at the cardboard waiting to see her 

(sorry its showing the wrong way the forum is doing that for some reason). 

I have just caught them kissing noses through a tiny gap, until i busted in and stopped them. I felt like the grumpy parent walking in on two teenagers. 

Now his really happy trying to pull the cardboard away and reach over the top. Again not in a territorial way — just a happy way. She dosen’t seem to mind either. But obviously I am going to keep going like this. If they like each other then it will wait. Finn just needs to be patient. 

[Bam]

Cuties 

[Deleted User]

Thanks Bam!!

While I had Myrtle in her pen today (Finn in his indoor hutch), the cardboard I have been using against the side of Myrtles pen that faces Finns hutch fell down while I was out. I got back and saw that they could completely see one another (but 2 feet apart).
Again, none where bothered. Finn was cleaning himself and Myrtle would just look occasionally stretch up and sit at that side of her pen.
Then when it was Finns turn to come out, the little bugger pulled away some cardboard from her cage while i was in the kitchen. They didn’t get much time as i heard him do it….but again nothing territorial or aggressive. They just appear to want to look at each other lol.

[Deleted User]

At this point, if neither bun was bothered by it, it’s okay to drop the cardboard and let them see each other.

[Deleted User]

Ok, I will keep the cardboard up until my Pen from Cozy Pets arrives and then i can use the NIC Grids as a buffer. Finn is desperate here haha.

[Deleted User]

lol he looks like my buns at each of their cages. They both will stop and groom the other one during play time.

[Deleted User]

Posted By Asriel and Bombur on 1/29/2018 1:51 PM

lol he looks like my buns at each of their cages. They both will stop and groom the other one during play time.

His bonding with her quicker then I am 

I need to bond with her first and her with me. But hey I am not complaining so far. All looks good. I am very surprised at her behaviour. Being unspayed and having just left her litter i thought she would be quite territorial. Apparently she’s not overly hormonal as she didn’t want to breed. So maybe thats why, that or I did something right. 

We shall see. It might change when they get sick of seeing each other 

[Deleted User]

I let Finn see Myrtle tonight (with a buffer). His such a nosey bunny I knew he wouldn’t be happy until he had seen what was going on inside the create. His gone over to the other side of the lounge so his happy now. I think the anxiety was driving him nuts. 

Myrtle was really trying to push her nose through the bars to sniff him, again not aggressive.

Finn was just acting like a dork. But it was ok – although I wont leave it like this. Myrtle did lift her tail a little so I am not pushing it. She is unspayed so that is her space. But it has helped Finn I think seeing what / who she is. His was neutered at 2 and a half months so he doesn’t know any better or about moody women.  

[Author]

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