No neuter again…need input!

[skunklionshow]

Leo went in Friday for another neuter attempt.  I asked the vet to also check his teeth while he was under in case he needed his teeth filed & trimmed.  According to the vet, he checked the mouth first.  He had to file and trim several rear molars and the front incisors.  The procedure did not go well and Leo’s teeth were bleeding bad.  He also had issues w/ the anesthesia, basically, not responding well to being under.  B/c of the bleeding in the mouth the vet, the tooth procedure took longer.  The way I understood it is that he was trying to get the bleeding to stop b/f moving on to the neuter.  He was nervous Leo might aspirate the blood or choke on it.  Due to these complications, he did not want Leo to be anesthetized longer and brought him back up b/f being able to complete the neuter.  Apparently Leo went into crisis during the anesthesia. 

He came home Friday night and has been on critical care and 2 pain meds.  He has been eating some veggies, pellets, and craisins, but we are supplementing w/ critical care until he seems more up to speed.  He still seems a little zonked and tired.  So I’m VERY concerned about trying a neuter again.  This will be about the 6th time I have scheduled and b/t Max’s medical emergencies & Leo’s teeth, it just hasn’t happened.  Am I tempting fate by trying this over and over….maybe it’s just not meant to be?  I told my hubby that I just don’t want to do the neuter any more and want to hear from the bunny community that this is not a bad decision and me being superstitious.  Please help appease my guilty feelings!

[bunnytowne]

I am not a vet. to be sure. this is my opinion only. someone else may have better answers and more experience than I. now that that is said.  if he had a bad reaction to the anesthesia and if that is definitely the case you may be right. if he is the only bun I would let things be. it won’t hurt him. he will be thinking of s e x a lot and may start spraying and his litterbox habits may slide but if you can handle that and you are sure the anesthesia is causing him a bad reaction and not the filing itself making his gums bleed. I would skip it. if it is the filing itself making the gums bleed I would proceed. maybe ask another vet for a better educated opinion perhaps. or ask your vet again of what he is sure of a reaction or the filing was the problem. I do get scared too about their surgeries I am a worry wart. I waited the whole time for my buns neuter i never left. partly cuz I had to take a cab. heheee. glad I stayed tho. they were real nice at the vets office. I wanted to watch but they wouldn’t let me.

[bunnytowne]

on rereading your post the vet said he had a crisis under the anesthesia I would leave him intact. some animals are allergic and we dont’ know til it is too late sometimes. in his case maybe he got lucky

[bunnytowne]

I read your bio I am laughing cuz I agree warn the prey so they can escape ahaa cute. yes I feel so bad for the deer and bunnies when they get caught I don’t watch those either animal vets on animal planet I love that. wish they had more on rabbits tho. and animal cops is kind of tough to watch too. hop eall goes well for your buns. if you have 2 males and they get along that is great. I had 2 males 1 neuter and 1 intact. they got on great til I got the intact one neutered then the other started bitin him and hurting him leaving cuts so I kept them seperated. they did lie next to the others cage with no harm. was nice. ok I have rambled on long enuf. you take care and the best wishes and vibes for your buns.

[Gravehearted]

ooo my goodness – how scary! I really feel for you and poor Leo. Is he doing any better yet?

So your vet is pretty bunny savvy right? If not – get a second opinion. But if he is – then it seems to me you’re onto something. If you’ve tried to schedule it six times – and now discovered he’s had an adverse reaction to anesthesia it does almost seem like the fates are trying to tell you the neuter isn’t a good idea. I know there are different kinds of anesthesia, but I am not sure if they have similar reactions in the bunnies.

sending lots of love and healing to Leo…

[Scarlet_Rose]

I agree wtih gravehearted, if your vet is very bunny savvy and Leo had a bad reaction to the anesthsia, talk about alternatives with the vet. I don’t think in this case you are a horrible person for not wanting to do it. My gosh what happened to the little fellow is horrible and I’m glad you still have him in your life. Talk about the options with a second vet or with your current one. Then make your decision.

[Beka27]

a neuter is not as invasive as a spay.  is it possible to do some kind of local anesthesia on rabbits?  or only put him halfway under?  i’m not a vet so i might be very wrong.

[osprey]

Another thing to consider is that Auntie Heather (our director at The Rabbit Haven) firmly beleives that the post-operative effects of anestesia are cumulative, that is the more procedure an animal has in their life, the more likely they are to have a bad outcome.  Maybe all of his teeth problems are making this situation worse?

 

[Sarita]

I have to wonder if as with people if animals with dental problems could possibly have heart (disease) problems – they say there is a direct correlation between dental health and heart disease. For example, my Bunbun who had dental problems and was constantly getting molar trims died unexpectedly after a dental procedure (about 3 or 4 days after – he would not eat or get back to his normal behavior) and he went into some kind of arrest. My vet discovered that he had endocardiosis when she did his autopsy – this is obviously just speculation on my part since I looked up a bunch of info on this afterwards. I do know that with alot of small dogs and maybe all dogs, they do make them take a course of antibiotics before any dental procedures. But I also agree with Osprey that going under anaesthesia regularly is probably not the best thing either (although I know it sometimes is necessary).

[Heath]

Posted By Sarita on 03/17/2008 9:17 AM
I have to wonder if as with people if animals with dental problems could possibly have heart (disease) problems – they say there is a direct correlation between dental health and heart disease. For example, my Bunbun who had dental problems and was constantly getting molar trims died unexpectedly after a dental procedure (about 3 or 4 days after – he would not eat or get back to his normal behavior) and he went into some kind of arrest. My vet discovered that he had endocardiosis when she did his autopsy – this is obviously just speculation on my part since I looked up a bunch of info on this afterwards. I do know that with alot of small dogs and maybe all dogs, they do make them take a course of antibiotics before any dental procedures. But I also agree with Osprey that going under anaesthesia regularly is probably not the best thing either (although I know it sometimes is necessary).

 

You’re quite right, actually. I believe it’s something about the blood systems between the teeth and the heart: they’re connected, or close enough to, that doing dental procedures can cause infections to spread to the heart. I have a heart murmer, and whenever I go in for a dental appointment I have to take a round of antibiotics in case any infections do get knocked loose in the process. I don’t know why they don’t do this with more animals/people: my heart murmer went undetected until I was well into my teens, and that was only by accident.

[kimberleyanddarren]

perhaps wait a few months and then have a go?

[skunklionshow]

Its just been so frustrating and I just feel like I’m tempting fate.  I can’t really explain that unless you believe in fate and “so mote it be”.  So that’s kinda of my first chill down my spine. 

My vet practice is a full animal practice.  2 out of 5 of the vets practice on small mammals w/ 3 out of 5 dealing w/ reptiles as well.  However, none of the vets are small mammal only, they do dogs & cats and then had additional practicum & studies in small mammals.  So I’m confident w/ my vet.  When Leo exhibited difficulties, he did have the other SM specialist come in.  Its my understanding that he wanted a 2nd opinion about whether or not to go through w/ the neuter.  The other vet has also done Leo’s dentals.  In addition, they believe that the reason his teeth are such a mess is b/c he has a maloclusion of the jaw or a misaligned jaw.  Our previous bunny vet felt that the incisors may have been congenital but seems ok w/ the misaligned jaw—if that makes sense. 

Dr. G stated that we can try the neuter again and suggested waiting about a month.  He explained that it is not as invasive & that w/ the teeth and the neuter it was too much for him at this time.  Behaviorally, Leo is not a bad teenage boy.  He does overspray in the litterbox, so I had to maneuver it better and add a 2nd box, but other than that he’s not aggressive, super horny, mean or dominant to Jessica (she’s spayed).  Granted his pee stinks and I was hoping that they could be out more, if I didn’t have to worry about him peeing on the cat beds or my seagrass rug.  He does try to hump Jessica about once a month…but not much more than that.  Maybe he’s asexual or just doesn’t find Jessica that attractive (hee hee). 

I will discuss Dr. G working w/ Dr. B w/ the anesthesia, when I bring Phoebe in for her post-dental follow up this week.  Also, my mom explained the antiobiotics w/ heart conditions.  My mom, ta-ta cancer survivor & double pace maker patient, explained the antiobiotics.  She said that the teeth blood line is a direct line to the heart.  Any infection that goes through an open sore in the mouth can kill further heart tissue or infect a bad heart further.  This could even be something like a cold or mild infection from the dentist.  Her heart became bad after developing a viral infection about 30 years ago.  She ended up going into cardiac arrest when my sister was born.  Now that’s she’s developed diabetes she is even more prone to bad things happening to her body from basic procedures.  So there’s a little bonus knowledge.

Thanks everyone for the kind words.  He’s still being supplemented w/ critical care, b/c he hasn’t been aggressive w/ his eating as usual.

[Scarlet_Rose]

It looks like you’ve got a lot of great input from family and that is very interesting about the jaw-heart connection. Give both of you the break and take your time.

[KatnipCrzy]

If he is going to continue to have dental problems- which it undoubtly sounds as that is the case- no anesthesia ever again may not be an option.  You need to discuss anesthesia problems with your vet before another possible need for anesthesia comes up again- you do not want to have to decide on an emergency basis.  Find out what has been used and did not work well.  It will be important for you to have this info PERSONALLY- in case he ever needs to be seen at an emergency vet and his records are not available (night or holiday).

I would get records of what injectable and inhalant anesthesia was used each time (and dosages) and his reaction each time to them- basically very complete medical records.   There are 2 different types of common inhalant anesthesia that can be used in rabbits and many more injectable- usually a combo of both is used.  Inj to get the relaxed and workable- and inhalant to keep them at a consisent level.  Some methods are more expensive than others- and it might be a good idea to find out what you vet can offer.

For example- propofol- is injectable (also used in humans) it is expensive- and if not used within certain amount of time after vial is opened for your pet- the rest of the vial must be thrown away.  Great for high risk anesthesia patients.

Inhalant anes- isoflurane is pretty common although there are probably some vets out there that are still using Halothane (outdated method).  Isoflorane I believe is typical standard.  But for high risk anesthesia patients- Sevoflorane is an option- but it is about 10 times the cost of Isoflorane.

Not every vet offers these additional “upgrades” in anesthesia- the propofol must be given IV and the Sevoflurane has it own special vaporizer that is unique to its properties (cannot be interchanged with Iso).

I would recommend talking to your vet before consulting another- unless you are unhappy with your vet.   It is not really the neuter I am so concerned about as the anesthesia problems.  I don’t blame you for being scared to neuter-  but it sounds as though you will have to make choices in the future about anesthesia for his teeth- and it is better to think about it now, research and ask questions are opposed to when he won’t eat from dental pain, etc. 

Since this was mentioned……

Dental and cardiac problems related– when dental infections are more than mild- the conditions in the mouth are ideal for bacteria that do not need oxygen- anaerobic bacteria (does not need oxygen) can get into the bloodstream and thru the bloodstream affect other major organs in the body- liver, kidneys and heart.   So infection in the mouth can affect the heart.

[skunklionshow]

That’s some great advice Katnip!  I will ask for a better explanation.  He has had about 3 teeth procedures requiring anesthesia and this is the first one to have problems/ complications.  I will likely wait a bit and try the neuter again.  He must be feeling better, b/c he tried to hump Jessica last night!  We created a special hidey spot for her when he’s horney, though she doesn’t have any issues letting him know that no means no

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