Nipping or Fighting?

[maghy7]

I got another bunny today to bond with my Pancho, I noticed after bringing them home that they were "attacking" each other, I don’t know if it was a real fight or they were just playing, how can I tell? I immediately seperated them and said NO! but after reading about it on another website it left me wondering, was a fight or were they just playing?

Thank you!

 

[Scarlet_Rose]

Bunnies that are new acquaintences rarely “play” in that manner and bunnies who are even bonded do not play like that either. This sounds like an act of aggression towards protecting territory against the other bun. I would go with slow bonding in keeping them in cages next to each other and work slowly up to putting them together in the same pen and even some car rides together. I am sorry it sounds like it is going to be a tough bond. It may have been better if you made a trip to the HRS here to bunny-date. Not to say that you can’t work your two into acceptance, it is likely to be a longer process and is going to take a lot of patience.

[Gravehearted]

You need to work with rabbits to bond them, rabbits don’t just meet and become friends. Rabbits are highly territorial and it takes them some time to work through to determine who is the boss. Therefore it is VERY important that you work with them in a neutral zone that neither considers territory.  So, pick someplace your rabbit has never been – like the bathtub or even kitchen to use as your bonded area. Any time you see them attacking or chasing each other in a circle, separate them immediately.

Are both bunnies neutered?  Bonding goes much better if both are fixed first. What sex is the new bunny?  Generally boy / girl bonds are the easiest.

The steps to bond  bunnies take some time and it is very important to be consistent.  It could take several weeks to even several months for a tougher bond. As Scarlet_Rose mentioned a good starting point to move their pens next to each for now. Then you can try car rides with them, since stressing them helps them to bond, try starting with 20 minutes and increase the time. Switching their litterboxes and houses is a good idea.  You can also try some play time in the neutral zone.  They will need to live separately until they are getting along for long periods of time without signs of aggression.

Humping is normal during bonding, it’s about dominance. If one buns is humping the other’s face turn them around IMMEDIATELY, to avoid someone being bit in a very sensitive area.  Grooming is generally a good sign.

 Please take a look at the binky bunny bonding info:  https://www.binkybunny.com/Default.aspx

[maghy7]

Hi Guys!

Prior to adopting Nibbles I did a bunch of research about bonding rabbits and all the steps, including the info provider in this web-site, I have two cages and put them next to each other leaving a little space in between just in case, yesterday I took Pancho with me to the shelter, we met a few bunnies and she was the one that he seemed to like best, when we got home I put Pancho back in his cage and I placed her in the other cage, they were both exhausted, later at night I placed them both in a neutral room, they were ignoring each other at first, then Pancho started jumping and running, he got close to her and started jumping over her, I think she got scared and that’s when the fighting began, I didn’t seem like they were really fighting but just in case I separated them and kept doing it every time I saw it coming, Pancho spread out for a while and she was just roaming around also doing binkies! after a while I put them back in the cages and did a little more research and that’s when I found out about the nipping/fighting, but didn’t really know how to tell them apart.
Today I took them to the bathtub, they tried to fight again, during that time, they laid down, she eat a little, she groomed her self, and I also noticed they were very agitated, is this normal? they were breathing very fast, after a while from resting she got up and came to Pancho, she sniffed his face but he got up and fought, I took him out of the tub so he would calm down, another thing I noticed which I have never seen before was that Pancho made this squeaking sound and stumped his feet a few times, I thought it was the dogs outside but then I realized it was him, I moved the towel away and he laid down on the cold surface, was he mad? hot? annoyed? I really don’t know.
So far I have seen a few good signs and a few not too good, what do you guys think?
Thank you all for your help. =)

PS: I own a male bunny and we got a female, they are both fixed.

 

[maghy7]

Here are a few pictures of Nibbles so you all can meet her.

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[(dig)x(me)x(now)]

What a cutie! Her colors are very beautiful… I love tannish bunnies! She looks a bit like by baby

[BinkyBunny]

Uh oh. Well, I suggest you try stress bonding. Take them on a car ride and see how they react. For the first few times it would be best to bring someone with you just in case they start fighting.

For now,  since they are so hyped up and nervous, and it looks like even a simple nip can turn them aggressive due to fear, then focus on keeping them calm in the neutral area. You may just need to pet them next to each other, but don’t allow them to interact so much.

Pet them, and the separate them when tensions begin to arise. So that they will begin to associate each other with being calm. Later they still may try to nip as this is a normal part of a dominance move. You may also want to try the stunt double – on bonding page towards bottom, so they can associate their potential mate with being non-aggressive.

Keep us updated.

[maghy7]

thank you guys!

last night I switched the cages, is this a good idea? Pancho didn’t look too happy to be in the small cage, on the other hand Nibbles was so happy in her big cage! lol I will switch them back tonight, this afternoon I will try to give them a washer machine "ride" haha I don’t have anybody to help me go for a car ride so it will have to be the washing machine for now, that way I can really keep an eye on them too and be able to separate them in case of.

Last night before I put Pancho in the cage, she was in the small one, he was out side and he came close to her cage and started smelling through the wire and she tried to bite him, nothing happened but when she was out he got in the cage and started marking all her stuff with his chin is it normal? oh and can somebody tell me what the stomping means? he was doing it again this morning in his cage.

thanks!

 

[maghy7]

[(dig)x(me)x(now)]

What’s up, hun?

[maghy7]

 I just need somebody to answer my questions… I’m a newbie at bonding and all I see are question marks in my head, lol

Today I got in the laundry room with them (neutral room) they did so good, I’m so happy, although there were a few times that they tried to start a fight I didn’t let them and instead petted them, they really enjoyed it, actually they were leaning against each other when I was doing that, they had some hay, laid down, Pancho gave me a bunch of kisses and Nibbles even got on top of me to be held, I noticed Pancho started eating after seeing her eat hay, then he just repeated everything she was doing, if she was cleaning her self he would do the same movements, have you guys ever seen that with you bunnies? that they will imitate each other? so cute! when I was petting them I let go of Pancho to see what he would do and he started sniffing her head, he gave her 2 licks! hahaha I know is only 2 but to me this is a miracle!! I can see how things are improving, I feel really pleased with today’s results.

One thing he keeps doing is to stomp his feet, he will make this weird sound and then stomps, why is this? he did it once in the litter box after I stopped petting him, is he demanding attention? I know is not because of any danger or anything, and it isn’t anger either, what can it be? he only started doing this since I got Nibbles.

Thank you!

[BinkyBunny]

It is a good idea to switch cages. Good job.

When they are grooming themselves in front of each other and mimic each other, this is a good sign. And the fact that he have her two licks – GREAT!!!!!!

Regarding the noise and thump. Is the noise like a little whinish..hmpf! and then thump? If so, he’s just feeling anxious. Totally normal during this time. Though he could be demanding your attention, it is most likely due to anxiety and so he gives a warning to the newcomer not to mess with him in a negative way.

I am glad to hear that things are progressing well so far. I know it can make us humans anxious too!

Keep us updated. You’re doing a good job so far!

[maghy7]

yes that’s how it sounds like, whinish..hmpf and stomp! he does it a few times out of the blue, I thought it could be demanding me for attention, because one time he jumped to one side of my legs and he was between my leg and the door and he started pushing my leg with his nose which I know he wanted me to pet him so I did and then stoped and that’s when he did it, also when they were both in the litter box, so I thought it could be a big attitude problem, telling me you better continue doing that until I tell you to stop! also yesterday while being in the laundry room with me he started playing with this toy he has, a very soft kind a ball and he was pushing it with his nose in circles and all of the sudden he did a flip and landed on his back, feet up and head to the side, he laid there for a good few seconds and the got up and started plying again, it really made me laugh, was he just playing or trying to send a message to me or Nibbles?

Thank you!

[maghy7]

Ok, so this past weekend went well, they cuddled, groomed each other, and all the things they are supposed to do when bonding, although she still tries to pick up a fight, when he turns around and his back is facing her or when he walks away and then tries to come back to her she will try to bite him, I’m not sure if it really it’s a fight she is trying to start or if she is trying to nip without hurting, all I can see is that her ears go back and I immediately stop her before she bites him, he gets scared and goes to a corner but I get him close to her and then they seem to be ok, when she is laying down and I place him next to her she seems fine with that, she won’t try to fight or nip or anything she just lays there all comfortable then she will ask for some grooming and she will groom him too, so why is this happening? Can somebody shed some light? I don’t really understand why she still does this when all he wants is to be sweet to her and he is the one that was here before!!

 

Another thing I wanted to ask is, after they seem to be getting along am I supposed to still put them back in their cages or do I have to keep them together? I ask because I have read in some websites that once they bond you are not supposed to separate them or else you are going to have to start from scratch the next time, is this true? Because so far I put them together for 1 or even 2 hours, they do ok and then I put them back in their cages, the cages are next to each other though, am I doing it right? How do I know when they are ready to share more space?

Thank you!!

[Scarlet_Rose]

maghy, what bonding method are you using? Are you following Binky Bunny’s? That will help me answer your questions. If you are using Binky Bunny’s method, which one are you using? 

It sounds like when he approaches her, she is aggressive and when you lay him next to her it’s OK but what about when he moves? With bonding, it’s probably best that you let him approach her rather than phsically placing him next to her. Although he was in your home first, it does not mean that is the way in which things will work (generally it does but that seems to not be the case here) and it may be with the way that their personalities are, they are not the best match.  I really wish that you would have taken your bun up to the House Rabbit Society here in Colorado for dating as I thnk it would have been much easier and had a variety of bunny personalities to best match your guy, not to mention save an awesome bunny.

Bunny bonding takes time (the average is a few weeks) and you just need to be patient and stand by to observe.  I would definately hold off on putting them in a cage together since she is nipping at him when he walks away. You are doing just fine with the dating and I would not try to inter-mix too much info from various web sites and basically stick to just one method.  I prefer Binky Bunnies method and if you were to simply leave them in a cage together, a very bad fight could happen while you sleep and some very expensive vet bills would ensue.

There is is some great info availble here on this web site that can help you with the bonding process:

 

BUNNY INFO   »   Bonding Info [script removed]

Bonding Info   [script removed] Many people believe bunnies are sweet and gentle. HA! Just wait until they meet another bunny they despise. They can rip into each other like sharks during a feeding frenzy. So it’s best to go through a bonding process. There are some basics to bonding, but each bonding experience is unique.  You have to figure out through trial and error what works.  For example, one pair of rabbits may like eating together, while another pair may fight over food.   Same thing can happen with the litterbox.   Remember there is no set time line: Though the average is a few weeks, bonding can be as short as a few days to a few months or longer, or in rare cases – never.  Patience and staying calm may become the biggest challenges. We can hinder or help the process with our own reactions. So  take a deep breath and repeat after me, "It’s only bunny bonding, the world isn’t ending, and yes I have other things to do, but maybe I can learn something from this."  I know I learned patience.      MAKE BONDING EASIER Spay & Neuter First: The hormones that drive them to fight over territory are lessened when bunnies are spayed/neutered.  During bonding, bunnies may mark more and seem to lose litterbox habits.  And urine and territorial droppings of bunnies that are not spayed and neutered are pungent. It’s best to wait a month after surgery before bonding to let their hormones die down. It’s important to note that a neutered male can still impregnate an unaltered female within a month after his neuter surgery.  He can still have viable sperm during that time. Note: Most bunnies at rabbit rescues are  spayed and neutered. Plus rescue groups can help you with bonding, which brings me to the next subject. Try Speed Dating for Bunnies: The easiest bonding session I ever experienced was when I took my bunny to the House Rabbit Society and let him pick HIS favorite.                                   There was one gorgeous rabbit there that I loved, and I  hoped he’d feel the same way, but she hated him, and wanted him dead. So that didn’t work, but can you imagine if I picked her out and brought her home to him? Egads! The HRS expert observed his behavior torwards the other "dates", and from that, she was able to choose rabbits she thought matched better with his personality type. This is extremely helpful for those who don’t yet know how to read their bunniy’s body language. I still had to go through a bonding process, but it took only a few days.       PRE-BONDING Put pens/cages next to each other: Some bonding experts recommend placing their cages or pens near each other and switching the bunnies or their litterboxes everyday for two weeks prior to bonding them.  Though this may help, I have found a couple of things to be cautious of: Bunnies can bite each other through some cages/pens, and they can do real damage to each other’s face. So make sure to separate their pens by a couple of inches, or use a thin netting type of chicken wire on one of the cages.    I have also found that placing cages, pens next to each other can sometimes actually make some bunnies more aggressive.  They have this new bunny near THEIR territory, and for some bunnies that just makes them even more aggressive. By the time I want to bond them, they already have murder on their mind.  So just watch. IF the aggression doesn’t die down at all over the two weeks, then you may have to get them out of sight and give them a week or so to settle down before introducing them in the neutral space.   NOW FOR THE ACTUAL BONDING STEPS  START NEUTRAL Be sure to wear gloves to protect your hands if they get aggressive, and have a squirt bottle handy to stop aggressive lunges. I always start in a neutral territory, which is any place that my bunny doesn’t usually go into, like the bathroom, bathtub or laundry room.  I start with 15 minute sessions in the neutral space a couple of times a day, and I increase or decrease the time depending on how they’re getting along.  Rabbits can hold grudges, so I always try and end on a positive note.  Positive doesn’t mean they have to be snuggling. They can just be ignoring each other. Rough Starts?  TRY CAR RIDES FIRST So what do you do if there really aren’t any positive experiences to end on? Some bunnies want to kill each other even in neutral territories.  If that happens, I put them in the carrier together and take them on a 20 minute car ride first. I’ve even had rabbits fight in the car, so be sure to have someone with you the first few times.  MOVING ON FROM THE NEUTRAL TERRITORY Once I am able to trust them alone during their bonding sessions in the neutral space, then I move them to a semi-neutral place.  (again, this can take days or even weeks of daily sessions) So how do I know when I can trust them alone?  When they can move away from or towards each other without a problem.  When they seem to be comfortable around each other, lying together, and/or at least one grooming the other.   When I see this happening, then I feel comfortable enough to step away and do something else within ear shot.   I don’t ever leave them completely alone until they are bonded in the non-neutral territory – like their space, cage or pen. Next Step – SEMI-NEUTRAL: A semi-neutral place is usually a general area that everyone, humans and animals alike, spend time in.   The bunnies still need to be kept confined during bonding, so I put them in an x-pen in that area. I go through the same routine in the semi-neutral space as I did in the neutral territory.  Sometimes the move doesn’t affect them, and other times the move can cause a little bit of a dominance dance.  That’s normal, but if things drastically digress, then I go back again to the neutral territory for awhile or rethink my strategy.  You’ll see in the bonding journals, that all different types of methods were used in Rucy & Bailey’s long bonding saga.    Final Step – PERMANENT HOME: Once I can trust them to be alone again without direct supervision in the semi-neutral space then I put them together in what will be their permanent space.   My rabbits have a large area sectioned off in the kitchen that they stay in when they’re not running around the house.   But before I bring them to "their" new space, I usually rearrange it, clean it with a vinegar and water mixture, and put in fresh linens and rugs.  This can help make it new even for the original bunny.    I supervise in their space just like I did in the previous spaces.  Once they are getting along there, then I consider them bonded.   But for the first night, I always want to be within ear shot of their space so I can wake up if a nasty fight breaks out. Since our bedroom is too far away, I brought a cot out to sleep on. (My husband decided to take it hostage) BONDING TIPS & TRICKS Don’t have a semi permanent Space? Create one: One of my bunnies considered almost every place(except for the bathroom) her area, so I had to create a semi-neutral space.   I did this by putting a section of sheet vinyl on the floor. (You can use a tarp or a blanket too)  Then I set-up the x-pen over the vinyl.  I then covered the sides of the x-pen with blankets, and cardboard to block their view.  Some general room smells might be familiar but they don’t usually recognize the space. Then over time I gradually removed the side panels.       PASTA STRAINER =  RABBIT PROTECTOR: Rabbits can really do damage to each other, and first few meetings make me nervous.   I learned a great protection technique while observing bonding at a local HRS Chapter (http://www.saveabunny.com.)  A net type pasta strainer doubled as a rabbit protector.  Placed between two rabbits during their initial introduction, it allowed a safe way to see their reaction towards each other.  The strainer can also be used throughout bonding.  If one lunges at another, the strainer can quickly be placed in-between them. THE STUNT DOUBLE: I accidentally discovered a helpful pre-bonding technique; I call it the “Stunt Double”: A Stunt Double is a stuffed animal that is covered in the scent of the"other" rabbit. I do that by putting the stuffed animal in the "other" bunny’s cage for a few days.  I also collect fur from the bunny brush. Then I cut little openings in the Stunt Double’s forehead, and put the rabbit fur there.  (The little grey spot on the bulldog’s head is the "other" bunny’s fur)      The stunt double has helped me predict a bunny’s reaction. It also helped my bunnies safely get used to their potential companion. I can’t guarantee that this will work in every situation.  This isn’t some scientific study or proven method; I accidentally discovered the stunt double technique when I was trying to help a lonely foster bunny, Jack, feel better. Jack’s Experience with the Stunt Double:    At first he charged and growled at the Stunt Double, who smelled like my bunny Rucy.  But because the stunt double didn’t return any aggression, I guess he felt safe, and after a few days, he began cuddling with it.   Later when I adopted Jack and actually introduced him to Rucy, all he wanted to do was cuddle.   Rucy was not aggressive with Jack at all. But she wasn’t quite sure what to make of Jack’s affection, but within a week she was in love with this new affectionate rabbit. I decided to try this with Bailey and Jack.  I made two stunt doubles – one for each bunny. They both reacted aggressively to their stunt double. They showed the same behavior during their first introduction, but at least I was prepared with my strainer, gloves and water bottle.  I continued to use the stunt double during the times they were away from each other.  Over time,  Jack and Bailey began to cuddle with their doubles. Their behavior with the doubles seemed to mirror their behavior with each other.  I don’t know if it made bonding any quicker between them, but it at least helped me prevent aggression because I was prepared for it. Since bonding is never the same, Check out more links regarding bonding. ARE YOU IN THE MIDDLE OF BONDING? Let’s learn from each other. Email your bonding journal, and I’ll post it or post tips gained from it.

The Language of Logomorphs is a great site that will help you figure out what bunny language is going on as well.

http://www.muridae.com/rabbits/rabbittalk.html

[Toki+Pumpkin+Elmo]

I had a real tough time bonding my bunnies too. When I first got Pumpkin, she was stomping her feet making weird noises too. In the wild, rabbits stomp their feet when they feel threatened, scaring off a predetor, or claming a territory. Pumpkin was doing it to my dog and she still does it but not as much. I think it’ll go away as the time progresses and as Pumpkin gets more comfortable over time.

[maghy7]

I don’t know what you mean by which of her methods, I only see one, I have explained above how I’m bonding them and I also said I did read the instructions here at BinkyBunny, the only thing I’m not doing is the car ride, I don’t have anybody to go with me so it’s difficult.

I didn’t go to the Colorado House Rabbit Society because I tried to get in contact with them about taking Pancho there and I never got a response back, I got tired of waiting and they are really far away from where I live, I think that getting a bunny from the pound is also a way of saving a life, I didn’t buy her if that’s what you thought, thank you for your help, I am really getting confused reading info from different web-sites but since I’m in the process of bonding I have questions and here it takes a long time to get an answer, I know you guys do all that you can and I thank you but if I need to find answers in the mean time I have to look for them somewhere else, I will follow your advise about not forcing them to be together, when Pancho tries to get to her she will nip, I don’t know if she is being protective of her self since she is new here and comes from the pound which is a very stresful place to be for any animal or if she is just plain mean hahaha, I doubt she is though, she seems to be ok when he is laying next to her and she is ok grooming him, I know this takes time and patience, I spent every minute with them in the laundry room, sitting on the floor just watching paint dry haha, I don’t mind, I will do it for as long as it takes.

Thank you all!

 

 

[maghy7]

This are a few pics I took yesterday.

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[Scarlet_Rose]

Maghy, by methods, I meant all of the ones I got the imression you read about on other web sites. : ) I would just stick to what Binky Bunny has listed and what the House Rabbit Society has online.  What other sources have you been looking at that tell you not to separate them and is confusing you?  I think it might help if you posted those links so I can take a look at them. 

These are some reliable sources (other than here of course) that stick along the same philosophy of bonding;

http://www.rabbit.org/chapters/san-diego/behavior/bonding-tips.html

http://www.rabbit.org/chapters/san-diego/behavior/expect.html

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/bond.shtml

Wow, that is awful that the HRS didn’t respond! Something must be going on because usually Nancy is really good about getting back to potential adopters. Oh well, like you said at least you saved a cute little fuzzy face from the pound. : ) Car rides are definately best with someone to accompany you, so sorry that is not an option. : (

I am sorry if you feel it takes a long time to get an answer here, we try to come here as often as we can and sometimes it can take a little time to get an answer as sometimes we need to look up things too, think about it for a bit or consult with each other. Thank you for your patience.

[BinkyBunny]

Regarding the advice you have read about separating them once they are bonded. That is true – but ONCE they are bonded. Yours, as far as your description goes, are not bonded. They are getting there, and are making progress like grooming and hanging out calmly, but you can’t trust them alone yet right? When you know you can trust each other, groom each other and no longer fight or nip at each other – Once they are best buds, calmly hanging around each other, then they are bonded. This can take weeks, and sometimes even months. So I think the confusion isn’t necessarily about the statement but more about what “bonded” means. Hope that helped.

Sorry for any latest delay in response. We are short-staffed by one right now – me! I’ll be back on my regular schedule in a few days!

[maghy7]

No problem at all, and thank you guys for responding, about the web-sites where I got it from I will looked for them and post them later today or maybe tomorrow, I will not look for more info and will stick to one method which is the one given in this website, I’m confident things will get better and my bunnies will bond one day, I already have a semi neutral place set up for when they are ready to move to the next level.

One thing, why does she nip? what is the reason for her to be that way towards him? and only at certain occasions? Pancho is so nice and looks for her all the time, but she is not having any of it and will only let him close by when she feels like it, I have noticed that when he goes around me where he is out of sight from her she will start looking for him, I think is cute and I hope she does it because she is getting used to see him close to her.

Thank you!

[Gravehearted]

well – bunnies are very territorial, and female bunnies are often even more so than boys. Nipping is a more gentle than a bite and is used as a form of communication with bunnies. My guess is she’s nipping to remind him of the social hierarchy and that she’s in control.

I don’t put up with nipping, if I catch them in the act, they get a squirt from the spray bottle.

[maghy7]

I don’t know what to do, it has been almost two weeks and I know this takes time, but I really think this is going no where, I have tried so hard and they have made progress but it seems like when I try the next day it all goes back to square one, like she has never seen him before, she keeps nipping at him all the time and he is becoming scared of her, I don’t want this for my bunny, it is so stressful to see it and not be able to stop the behavior for good, even if she becomes more confortable on the next day she starts all over again, what should I do? I’m considering taking her back, it brakes my heart into a million pieces and just the thought makes me feel like a bad mother and person, Pancho was here first and he is my baby bunny, I have seen a few bite marks over his body, I guess the nipping comes with a real bite too, I’m so sad, please give me some light.

 

Thank you.

[Scarlet_Rose]

Have you reprimanded her for nipping him?  I would suggest keeping a squirt bottle at the ready. Has he mounted her at all?  I am wondering if she might be going through a false pregnancy.  If that is the case, then she would be nipping at him, keeping him away.  She is fixed right? So there is no chance of her being pregnant?

I also have another question to you, how long are you willing to wait for the bond to happen, and are you willing to keep her if they don’t bond? Time, work and persistence are a big key to bonding bunnies. I would encourage you to keep up the persistence and maybe, just maybe give it a break for a while as it seems that she is not even settled into your place quite yet and doesn’t understand things.  Do you know anything about her background at all? It might also explain her behavior, like why she was surrendered.

[maghy7]

Yes I do have a squirt bottle with me all the time, he did mounted her when they met at the pound for just seconds and then another time the first day here at the house but I seperated them and didn’t let him do it again, I’m not sure about the false pregnancy I do know they did check her to see if she was pregnant I don’t know why they might have thought that, they didn’t spayed her because they say they found a scar and figured she was already spayed, I have been thinking that she might not be and that’s why she acts that way, I really don’t know, I told him I only wanted a female who was already spayed, they don’t have background on her because somebody left her there outside the front door and they found her the next morning in a box.

About the time that I’m willing to wait there is only a month that I get in case it doesn’t work out, in case they don’t bond I really don’t want to rabbits who don’t get along, the whole reason that we got another bunny was for Pancho to have a partner and that is my goal, I don’t want to take her back and it would be my last option, I will try anything and everything to make this bonding happen but if it doesn’t I got no other choice.

I noticed she is missing hair from her chest, they didn’t know why at the pound which I don’t really believe, any way, another thing I noticed is that she doesn’t pee in the litter box, she sticks her butt over the edge and pees outside the box, I read males that are not neutered do this but I don’t know the reason why a femela bun would do it.

Thanks!

[Scarlet_Rose]

Oh boy, the fur missing from the chest is a big indication she is/was going through either a false pregnancy or pregnancy. The act of pulling out fur is called "nesting" and they usually do it right about the time they are going to give birth. I am assuming that they felt she was not pregnant then at the shelter? I’m like you, I don’t know if I would believe them since they didn’t know why the fur was gone. May I ask which shelter you got her from? If you don’t want to post it here, please just e-mail it to me.  I would like to check them out or at least find out how "bunny savvy" they are to give us a better idea.

I am wondering if maybe she was dumped after she had a litter and is a "new" mom (a huge possibility). I’m going to have to check and see how long it takes for mum to return to normal after birthing a litter. I really think we may have hit upon something here.  If so, give her some time, I am so glad you are willing to work with her.  Can you take her to a vet to be certain she has been spayed? Unfortunately it may take having to cut her open to find out for sure, plus have her checked to see if she is pregnant and/or if she has had a litter recently.  Were her mammary glands swolen at all when you got her?

[maghy7]

Yeah that was something I did ask them, the guy who helped me out with the adoption didn’t know why the fur was missing, on the paperwork they gave me with her history it says they did cut her open to check for a pregnancy and to make sure she was spayed, she was put under anesthesia and that’s when they found out she was not pregnant and they found a scar that indicated them she was spayed.

I got it from the Dumb friends league, I will take her to my vet either way, I want him to see her so he can tell me for sure, I did check her mammary glands that day but to tell you the truth, I really don’t know if they were really swolen or that’s how they normaly look.

What should I do for now?

Thank you!

[BinkyBunny]

Wow, sounds like this has been quite stressful. I think for now, until you take her to the vet, don’t try to bond them anymore. Give them a break. I also think this may help you keep calm too. Staying relaxed and calm during the whole bonding process is important. I know that is much easier said than done. I used to bring in a stereo to the bathroom (where i first bonded them) and listened to Enya or some calm music to keep me from hovering over them and jumping at every movement. I could still protect them, but in a calm way.

Then when you start again, do the car ride method. Also, do you notice that they just fight at the beginning and then calm down, or does she sort of get like this throughout? If she’s doing it at the beginning, then pet them right away and use the first 10 minutes to pet them and help them relax. Hopefully that will help them associate meeting each other with something pleasurable and calming. Also, if you find that they do better over time, do a whole weekend of bonding. Sometimes this works. This means, you basically give up your whole weekend to hang out and bond.

During this time when they are separated, start switching litterboxes and/or putting them in each other’s space every other day. Also, try the stunt bunny double method. All of these "Pre-bonding" methods may make it easier when you start the bonding process.

You might have mentioned this before, but are their pens/cages near each other?

[maghy7]

thanks binkybunny, I already started to keep them separated since yesterday,no more bonding for now, I also have their cages next to eachother and switch them everyother day, also I put on soft music when they are together and since Tusday I have been dedicated to bonding them, Tusday was the last day I went to work until tomorrow, so I took all those days to be with them and try bonding them, I’m always calm, that is something I have no trouble with, the car ride I said before I can’t do since I don’t have somebody to go with me, so as you can see I have tried everything and I do believe I have done it right so far, I have tried all the steps given here including the stunt double, I think this problem is more about her personality due to hormones or something else I might not know, if she went through a false pregnancy how long does it take for her to go back to normal? should I let her run free around the house for now so she can get comfortable or will she get to territorial if I do this? I noticed she nips at him whenever he gets close to her must of the time when he comes up to her in a fast pace or passes by her, I see her intention is not to hurt but to protect, she seems very scared of everything.

In the mean time being separated I will do the stunt double again, and will keep switching cages.

Thank you!

[Scarlet_Rose]

OH OK Maghy.  You said that the shelter mentioned that they found a scar but didn’t detail that they had actually opened her up.  Poor baby.  Mother bunnies pull out fur shortly before birth but this sounds like she is acting it out longer than usual so it may be partly caused by stress.  I have not had much luck with how long the "nesting" phase lasts in a false pregnancy, but I am thinking that it should be over in a week or two. I am glad you are taking a break from the bonding though, I think it will help her settle into a new environment. The DFL doesn’t really have any bunny people so it makes sense they weren’t sure.  Usually they just stick to dogs & cats and am surprised that they had a rabbit. I would say just to keep on doing what you are right now.  Is she actively pulling out fur still? How are both rabbits reacting to the cage switching? It works with not letting them be territorial over "their" space but sometimes it can also cause more stress.

[maghy7]

She is not pulling her fur out anymore, actually she has never done it since I got her, I noticed she had bald patches on her tummy and chest at the pound, her hair is growing back now, I was looking at her tummy last night to see if she has a scar from getting spayed, but I didn’t see anything, will it be visible to the naked eye? and exactly where should I be looking? also if they say they put her under anesthesia, doesn’t that mean that they opened her up to check inside for babies or to see if she was spayed already? I really don’t understand. =(

thank you!

Oh another thing, why doesn’t she like to pee in the litter box? she sticks her butt out of the edge of the box and goes out side, why this behavior? isn’t that a sign that she may not be spayed?

thanks!

[maghy7]

ok so now she is growling at him from her cage, she thinks she can get to him but of course she can’t but since I have their cages next to each other they can be close without being close, any way I think I’m going to take her back, I thought I was making a good decision but as time goes by it seems like things are getting worse and I don’t want for Pancho to get depressed, stressed out or anxious, that’s not what I wanted for him, I might taker her back and take him to the colorado house society for them to match him to the best bunny, I know it is far away but it might be all worth it, it brakes my heart to see this happen and to take her back but she is living me no other choice.

=( this is not a good moment for me.

[BinkyBunny]

Well, it looks like it’s been two weeks with little improvement. I do know on average it takes three weeks, which means for some it takes longer (to create that 3 week average) I know you said you were going to confirm at a vet about her spay, so really that’s the only way if you have doubt. There is no way for us to know for sure.

The fact that she’s in the box and peeing over the box, might just be architecture.
It sounds like her litterbox is too low or you may need a litterbox with a lip or cover. My rabbit used to back up and lift his tail over the box. He wasn’t really meaning to go over the edge, he was just meaning to get it as far back as his legs would go – just his method. So I got a box with a lip and it solved that problem. Maybe that’s all you’ll need. If she was peeing everywhere outside of the box FROM outside of the box, then I might think she’s extra territorial, has a possible illness, or she’s not spayed. But from the description, it just seems like it’s her style, like it was Jack’s.

Final note: In my opinion, I think since the “spay” thing is still in question, before making a decision to give her back, have a vet check her out first to confirm whether or not she’s spayed or if there might be any other healthy issues that are making her aggressive.

Keep us updated, and I’m sorry this has not been easy.

[Molotov]

aww, thats no good! When i added the second bunny they fought whenever put together (the new female, muffin wasnt spayed) and fur flew until a month or two after the spaying. She was always instigating spats with my neutered male Lou. I thought about finding her a new home but just when i’d lost hope they started grooming each other and meatloafing together.

The scar is up and down on her belly, between the back legs and pretty close to the tail end. About two inches long on my 2 lb girl. I just went and checked to see if you could still make it out but the fur is so thick and bunny so squirmy you cant really tell. The only sign left is a little bumpy “line” on her tummy muscle. If she were any fatter you wouldnt even be able to tell. Are you sure they opened her up and looked for a uterus/ovaries? It would be very difficult to tell from the outside if a rabbit is spayed or not i would think. Nothing against the place you got the girl from but I wouldn’t put complete confidence in their opinion. I adopted a bunny from the shelter and they didnt even sex her right.

When we added the third bunny (another female) the trio was seperated for a little over a month before the tiffs stopped. But I think we lucked out with her getting along with the fixed buns, she isn’t spayed yet, im on a waiting list w/ the vet.

If your mind isnt made up on bringing her back you could give them a couple more weeks? If you have an X pen and a nice quiet lawn try putting them on grass to bond. The outdoor setting kinda helped when making the couple a trio. Maybe something to do w/ the sounds and smells of the natural world made them appreciate the security of the group.

[maghy7]

thank you both, I looked for a scar and I can’t find any sign of anything besides missing fur, I really don’t think she has been spayed, I will take her to the vet anyway, they can tell me for sure and if she hasn’t been spayed the pound will taker of it free of charge to me which is very nice.

I will take on your idea Molotov of the pen outside on the grass, I was thinking about it, I will give that a try.

About her peeing thing the other day she peed out side on top of the towel I had by her hay, don’t they pee away from their food?

thanks!

PS: Molotov where are you from? if it is ok to ask.

[BinkyBunny]

Rabbits can use hay to eat AND as bedding so it is not unusual for them to pee on it to claim it.

[Molotov]

Let me know how they react to the great outdoors hopefully they will focus more on the scenery and smells than fighting. I am from south Mississippi. About 10 miles from the gulf of mexico.

[Scarlet_Rose]

Maghy I am very disheartened to hear about what has been happening.  Here I was hoping that things were going well. Like everyone said, there is no way to tell for sure if she has been spayed without taking her to a vet to find out. The peeing since she is being so aggressive with your poor guy is probably to mark territory.  Covered cat litterboxes do well for the peeing over the side but peeing outside of it is a training thing.  Did the shelter say she was litter trained? If it keeps up, you may want to start over with litter training. I’ve got my fingers crossed for you.  It was a nice cool, sunny day outside today, a little windy, but still real nice.  Take care and keep us updated.

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