New Years Resolution: Trio Bonding (2-18-10 HELP! Back to square one?!)

[skibunny8503]

Ok so I’ve tried and then quit and then tried again but never stuck with it.  My new years resolution is to get Archie and Gracie bonded to Sandy.  In my past posts I’ve mentioned that Gracie and Sandy (which I was working on bonding first since they’re both females and don’t get along) were fighting.  So far I’ve done 4 bonding sessions.  I have my gloves in hand and a grid to put between the two.  Gracie’s ears go forward everytime she’s really close to Sandy.  So each time they get close I just put the grid between them in fear that one of them might get hurt.  The first day (back to bonding) when I put Gracie and Sandy together wasn’t to bad.  Gracie did pee but it was because she had to go to the bathroom the first time.  She lunged at Sandy and sprayed the second time.  She even pooped a few times.  The second day I put them together I believe this was the short day…my friend called me up that I hadn’t talked to in awhile.  I tried to multitask but it didn’t work.  Gracie peed and was going to step in it (plus I was by myself), so I just ended it there.  It only lasted a few minutes if that.  The third day I picked Gracie up like I always do (craddeling her like a baby) and I went into the kitchen where Sandy was already in.  I held on to her and for some reason I thought let me sit down and hold her and see what happens.  I was still concerned about who was attacking who because as soon as one got close to the other they would lung.  Sandy hopped over to me and sniffed Gracie who was in a trance.  And what happened after that???!!!  Absolutely nothing!  Sandy didn’t attack Gracie.  So now I know who is the one that attacks (Gracie).  I held Gracie for a few minutes while Sandy got used to her.  I calmly talked to them and (I know I’m weird) told Gracie “Look she’s not attacking you, you have nothing to be scared of”.  She wimpered a bit and I gave them both a raisin for being so good.  I let Gracie down.  She didn’t pee or poop the whole time.  I even washed off some lettuce and they ate together (well not close but close enough on opposite sides of the paper towel).  I’m still using the grid though.  At the end of the session which lasted about 20 min. (woohoo!) I held Gracie again and let Sandy sniff her and gave them a treat.  Today I did the same thing.  But towards the end of 15 min. Gracie wanted out, she was climbing the gate and just being aggressive.  She was even attacking the grid.  So I said that’s it and I held her for Sandy and gave them a treat while petting them both.  My husband was home to take some video.  So what do you guys think, am I making progress?  I know it’s going to take awhile but I think this technique is helping Gracie realize Sandy isn’t as big of a threat.  

 

 

[Deleted User]

THAT IS REALLY NEAT SKIBUNNY! WOW! — you found a thing that works! Stick with it… do it over and over and don’t be too alarmed if Gracie gets nasty now and then, as long as you protect Sandy from getting actually hurt, Gracie’s attempts to attack won’t spoil it. With time, Gracie will soften up toward Sandy. This is so cool, bonding by trance… happy new year!

[jerseygirl]

I thought similar – Ski, you may have invented a new bonding technique.
So you think Gracie is aware of Sandy being there when “tranced”? I’m wondering what would happen if you can reverse things and have Gracie approach Sandy in that posistion?

[BunnyLiz]

Thats a really cool idea! I think I might try to bond Hammer and Lucy to Mae, Im just waiting for Lucy to get a little older and maybe her teenage personality will chill (even though she is 1), and Mae to feel more comfortable here and with me. If I do bond them, Ill probably be stealing this technique.

[skibunny8503]

Posted By jerseygirl on 01/10/2010 02:27 PM
I thought similar – Ski, you may have invented a new bonding technique.
So you think Gracie is aware of Sandy being there when “tranced”? I’m wondering what would happen if you can reverse things and have Gracie approach Sandy in that posistion?

Woohoo new bonding technique!!  I thought maybe someone had tried it before.  I don’t know what made me think of that.    I wish I could trance her but Sandy doesn’t like being held when she’s out and I haven’t been able to put her in a trance (hence I need to call the vet maybe to get her nails trimmed….she’s such a pain ).  I’m going to do another bonding session in a minute.  Maybe I will put Sandy by me and pet her and see what Gracie does.  I don’t want Gracie to get jealous of me giving her attention though.  I so anxious to try to bond Archie and Sandy but I KNOW I have to wait though at least until Gracie stops attacking, right?  

 

ETA:  I just finished bonding.  Lasted about 20 min until Gracie attacked Sandy *sigh*.  I think Gracie gets a little freaked out after the trance and it takes her a minute or two to figure out what’s going on.  I put lettuce out and she’d eat a little and then snap back into it like  “must defend myself if Brown Bunny gets near me…wait is that lettuce nom nom…wait must defend myself against Brown Bunny…oooo lettuce nom nom”   I finally pushed her by the lettuce until she ate the whole thing by Brown Bu…I mean Sandy   Everything was going pretty smoothly.  Gracie went by Sandy and I immediately put the grid up but she didn’t do anything right awhile so I put the grid back and wouldn’t you know it she tricked me and attacked Sandy!  Only lasted a moment but a moment to get a tuff of fur in Gracie’s mouth.  But luckilly that was it and no cuts (Gracie’s teeth aren’t to sharp to do any major damage anyways).  After that Gracie freaked out, peed on the floor and went by the gate climbing it (well stretching across it) and then shoving her nose into it to try to get out like some crazy bun.  I held her and she flung her feet her a tantrum while hitting my hand (ouch!).  So much for ending it on a good note.  I should have stopped after they ate well together (before the attack).    *sigh*  I can’t stress them out with a car ride in the snowy weather.  (maybe when it warms up a bit).  Bath tub no because of the door attached to the tub, basement sink no because it’s high and I’m afraid they’ll jump out and hurt themselves.  I keep going back to the “easy way” but I know we can’t afford a 4th bun and I”d be worried of Archie and Gracie not liking him from their cage.  Gosh I wish our house was bigger and we had more money.

[Deleted User]

The only reason not to hold meetings between Sandy and Archie would be if Gracie still attacked Archie for having Sandy’s scent. In that case it would be best to bond the two girls first.
You don’t have to drive to do a car ride. You can idle the car and honk the horn, turn on the defrost setting… things like that.
They shouldn’t move much in the sink, it is really foreign to them. You could ask your husband for help to make sure neither jumps out.
Skibun, there is always a way, you have just proven it yourself by inventing the trance-method.

[Monkeybun]

Hmm i wonder if Moose will let me trance him… *ponders*

[skibunny8503]

Posted By Petzy on 01/10/2010 11:38 PM
The only reason not to hold meetings between Sandy and Archie would be if Gracie still attacked Archie for having Sandy’s scent. In that case it would be best to bond the two girls first.

I skipped last night, I was feeling a bit off so I gave them a break for the day.  Gracie has never attacked Archie (at the extreme she TRIED to hump him).  I think maybe tonight I’ll be Sandy and Archie together (or tomorrow) because I want to make sure there’s a possibility that they’ll bond too.  I would hate to go through months (if I last that long haha!) to bond Gracie and Sandy and then put Archie in and Sandy absolutely hate Archie (and he doesn’t really fight back).  And after their bonding session, I’ll try to snuggle with him and get my scent on him so he doesn’t smell like her.  But their cages are next to each other and she’s starting to shed so her hair goes by their cage.  I don’t know if it’ll be that big of a deal if he has a little bit of her scent on him.  I’ll do the same thing with the gloves and grid for protection.  I’ll let you know how it goes

[Deleted User]

Don’t bother with rubbing the scent off. If Gracie does not attack Archie then him having Sandy’s scent will be very helpful.

[skibunny8503]

Just did a bonding session with Archie and Sandy and let me tell you I wish every bunny was like Archie!  He is just the friendliest rabbit.  We did a 20 min session. (could have done longer but thought I should keep it short for their first bond).  Sandy lunged at him once because she’s a little defensive when being brushed up against her rear.  I was really surprised that he didn’t try to hump her.  He did put his nose towards her back but I said no and he stopped.  He even groomed her several times.  I think Sandy’s just not used to other rabbits since when he got near her she’s tense up but I’d pet her and she’d calm down.  When she attacked him and I seperated them poor Archie just stood there like “I didn’t do anything” instead of running away.  But all in all it was a good session.  I just wish that Gracie would be like Archie.  Oh and no worries with Gracie, right now they’re cuddled up next to each other falling asleep.    Maybe he’ll tell her it’s not so bad hehe!

[Deleted User]

Posted By skibunny8503 on 01/12/2010 11:38 AM

Just did a bonding session with Archie and Sandy and let me tell you I wish every bunny was like Archie!  He is just the friendliest rabbit.  We did a 20 min session. (could have done longer but thought I should keep it short for their first bond).  Sandy lunged at him once because she’s a little defensive when being brushed up against her rear.  I was really surprised that he didn’t try to hump her.  He did put his nose towards her back but I said no and he stopped.  He even groomed her several times.  I think Sandy’s just not used to other rabbits since when he got near her she’s tense up but I’d pet her and she’d calm down.  When she attacked him and I seperated them poor Archie just stood there like “I didn’t do anything” instead of running away.  But all in all it was a good session.  I just wish that Gracie would be like Archie.  Oh and no worries with Gracie, right now they’re cuddled up next to each other falling asleep.    Maybe he’ll tell her it’s not so bad hehe!

You could bond Archie to Sandy tightly and use Archie as a mediator bunny. Sometimes a trio bond can be easier than a paired bond if a pair such as Gracie and Sandy seem stuck in a rut.

[skibunny8503]

So do you mean bond Sandy and Archie tightly and then put them together with Gracie?
Did 2 sessions with both last night. Gracie wasn’t too happy. She ran towards Sandy a few times with ears all forward, almost like she was charging at her but I put the grid between them so she wouldn’t attack. She seemed to want to attack her a little more. She’s not to happy being bonded with Sandy. Their session was 15 min. and then I switched them out and put Archie in. He doesn’t mind Sandy but he runs around the kitchen trying to find away to get out. He’ll groom her but doesn’t seem to interested in her. And Sandy’s more interested in me. Sandy did attack poor Archie once. He got to close to her behind and she lunged at him. The poor guy. I’m so proud of him because he really hasn’t tried to mount her. I’ve even petted Sandy in case he had an urge to mount her so she wouldn’t attack but he didn’t do anything. Sniffed her but didn’t seem interested. He was more interested in looking for Gracie.
I’m a little afraid that if this trio bonding ever does become a success that one of them (probably Sandy) will still be “alone”. I just want them to all be happy. I wish they could talk and tell me what they want…well I know what Gracie would say. I just wish I knew how to make Sandy happy. *sigh*

[Deleted User]

Posted By skibunny8503 on 01/14/2010 07:27 AM
So do you mean bond Sandy and Archie tightly and then put them together with Gracie?

I’m a little afraid that if this trio bonding ever does become a success that one of them (probably Sandy) will still be “alone”. I just want them to all be happy.

 

Bonding Archie to Sandy first might affect his relationship with Gracie. Once you move on to trio sessions, one of the three will become a “third wheel”, but only for a time. For the trio sessions you want your husband’s help for an extra set of hands.

When you are making a trio out of a bonded pair and a new bunny, it can change the existing pair’s (Archie/Gracie) closeness. This is why people find trios hard to do. Ideally, you would want Sandy to be the “least bunny” in the trio for a while because being young and not previously bonded it will be easy for her to earn the other’s friendship over time.

[skibunny8503]

Bonded Sandy and Archie today (I think I might do one one day and the other the next..you think that’s good?). Archie is such a dedicated bunny. He groomed the heck out of her. She attacked him once when he was done grooming and about to brush up against her side. She hates when he brushes up against her and he always does that lol! I kept petting Sandy to reassure her and so she wouldn’t lung at Archie. He’d hop to her but she didn’t do the same. The put their heads together once to tell the other to groom them and guess who gave up and did it, Archie hehe! It didn’t last that long, a few seconds and he groomed her. He was a very good boy, I’m so proud of him! I just don’t want him to get hurt, he’ll always be my baby.

[Deleted User]

I’m glad Archie is being a good example.. hehe. You could rotate the pairings but watch if it scares Sandy unduly. She may take comfort into being exposed to just one bunny and then move on. Plus, you won’t get it done faster by rotating; however, if it was me, I would try it for three consecutive days or sessions in order to find out more cues from their dynamics. Then I would focus on one pairing.

[skibunny8503]

I’m taking your advice with trying to do Sandy and Archie and bond them tightly together.  I was rotating them and pretty much have Sandy and Gracie’s behaviors down (Archie doesn’t do much except groom).  Well today I put Sandy and Archie together but I decided instead of the kitchen I’ll put them in a smaller space like the bathroom, they don’t get in there much since Gracie likes to attack the toliet brush and Sandy likes to grab tissues from the trash and run away with them   So moved all the stuff that they can get into out of the way, rolled up the rug and put it in the tub and put the trash infront of the toliet so they can’t get around and hide or attack and I can’t get to them.  Put a baby gate up and stuck them in together as I stood close by…well inches away, I guess I’m really protective.  I thought I’d get the normal Archie grooming and Sandy nipping a bit but this time Sandy went at Archie and pulled out a good chunk of his fur   Sandy has now officially scared off Archie!    He did seem like he was going to go after her a few times but he had a running start and I stopped him from attacking (which I might add he never attacks but I’m glad he’s defending himself now).  They lasted about 15-20 min. until he finally groomed her and I ended it on a good note.  I should have waited to do laundry until tomorrow darn!  Husband’s on afternoons again and so I can’t do to much stress bonding because I need someone to help me.  

I just tell myself to stick with it and it’ll be worth it in the end.  Cheaper than a 4th rabbit, that’s for sure. 

[Deleted User]

Ski, you are beginning to sound like you know what you’re doing. Don’t be too alarmed about Sandy’s change of modus operandi… she’s a young bun and they are unpredictable and competitive. She is feeling out the waters to see how far she can go. When I recently bonded my two mini rexes, Lint and Neigey, I was surprised to see little 5 month-old Neigey give Lint, my ‘boss bunny’ a run for his money! If Archie didn’t fight Sandy, you are sailing smoothly. As long as you are there to protet them from injury, these encounters won’t harm anybun. Keep it up. You will have your trio soon!

[skibunny8503]

I’ve been bonding Archie and Sandy for the past few days and it’s been going ok.  She attacks him when he gets to close and brushes up against her, especially the side and he likes to do that for some reason.  He grooms her but is being more defensive.  He’ll run pass her now since if he does it slow then she’ll attack.  I DID get her to groom him 2 times (really quick though and then demanded him to groom her).  She’s very demanding in the grooming.  I’ve made it now that when she attacks him once I yell NO and pick her up and warn her and if she does it again I put her in the scary tub for not even a minute.  I put the shower doors back and forth, flush the toilet anything to try to scare them a little.  All in all it’s been about the same and we’ll have to do a car ride or something soon to move forward.  I do have a problem though…Archie keeps wanting groomed from her but he doesn’t get any, and he hardly gets any from Gracie.  So after our bonding session he chases Gracie and tries to mount her.  He’s just sexually frusturated I think.  And I give him the chance if he’s behind her and I’m petting Sandy to mount her but I think he’s afraid of her (Gracie NEVER attacked Archie, she only mounted him once or twice when bonding)  He was THE MAN for Gracie but when Sandy and Archie are together Sandy wears the pants in that relationship.  Any ideas on how to get him to stop, it’s not really fair to Gracie.  Should I just give him lots and lots of attention after the session?  What do I do about Sandy and Gracie, just wait until Sandy and Archie are bonded more and then start back up on them or do a trio session?  That 4th bunny keeps looking better and better haha!

[jerseygirl]

I doubt it’s sexual frustration but could be plain old frustration though. My guess is it’s just a stress reliever for him. Also could be a way he feels more secure after being in situation outside his comfort zone. So a combo of dominance/stress related behaviour. I think some one on one time just petting and settling him after a session would be beneficial.

So you think Sandy attacks through fear?

For my 2 cents, I think you should continue on as is. The more sessions you do, the more familiar with one another they become and their interaction should change.

[Deleted User]

I agree with Jersey. You are really on your way, Skibunny, to get them bonded. It is just tiring I know. I like the toilet flush distraction, you are just full of original ideas. –My Lint will mount other rabbits in his group when he is stressed or frustrated, when I crate him with another rabbit in a small carrier for example, or if he just met a new rabbit, etc. Don’t feel bad for Gracie, she will let him know not to do it, or just run off. It’s part of rabbit communication, it is more than just reproductive/sexual in nature. I would now hold off with Gracie and Sandy since you are making progress with Archie and Sandy (any interaction that is not fighting is basically progress!) And you already got them grooming, wow. My rabbits take weeks of cementing a new bond before grooming! Car rides are a good idea as always, but any setup now that they are comfortable in and not fighting will work. Don’t be too alarmed about the small attacks when he brushes up against her… as long as he doesn’t aggress back, they will come to an understanding, it takes time.

[skibunny8503]

Ok I think we’re getting somewhere now…hopefully!  I did a bonding session with Archie and Sandy and the first 10 min was a bit tense.  They started nipping at each other more than usual.  I got fed up and I grabbed Sandy and put her in the tub for a “time out” but then I thought, you know what Archie was biting her too so he goes in the tub too!  They were both in the tub and they still tried to nip, I yelled no really loud but nothing…hmm….IDEA!  I turned the water to the tub on really quick, just enough for a little water to splash on them if they were close and to scare them.  I did this about ever 20 to 30 seconds or so for 15 more minutes.  Well…I stressed them out alright!  Both breathing heavily and Archie even thumped twice and was snuggled next to her.  I’ll point out that as soon as I started doing the water Archie immiedately became the protector and wanted to let Sandy know and got brave enough to mount her!  I petted her as he did his thing for a few minutes and I pushed him off not to let him do it too long and have her get mad and start attacking again.  He even hopped past her and she didn’t do anything.  He’s a little paranoid with her though because if she moves her head he’ll jump by her like he’s ready to attack.  So that was why there was one scuffle during that time (that and I let up on the water a little so they didn’t get too stressed).  They didn’t care for their feet being a little wet but oh well.  I’m not sure if that will work on Gracie or not but it’s worth a try once I start back up on them.  Oh and Archie and Gracie haven’t fought at all…he does mount her sometimes though.  He likes to try to mount her while they’re in the litter box because she can’t go anywhere.

I wish I had my camera or I would have taken pictures…I’ll have to remember next time.  But I’m pretty happy about today’s session!  

[Deleted User]

The splashing was a good idea. They really hate it, more than a squirt bottle. Have you taken Archie and Sandy on any motion rides such as in the car, on top of a washing machine or even just on your lap in a box with your knees bouncing? I have watched my favorite shows sometimes with two rabbits in a box on my lap that way.

[skibunny8503]

I might have to try the box thing tonight!  Leaning over the tub can strain your neck after awhile.  Well they’ve been doing pretty well in the tub.  I did something different last night but I don’t think I’ll do it again since it really didn’t do anything but it was interesting.  I left them in the tub for about a 1/2 hour.  Then I took them out of the tub in the bathroom floor to see how they would react.  Well it’s weird because in the tub Archie will run over to Sandy and thump, groom her and just sit by her.  He even mounts her…a little to much I’d say but I pet her and tell her it’s ok and give her a raisin when he’s done (I pushed him off a few times last night because he was going over board and I didn’t want her to attack him).  As soon as I let them out they ran by the gate (hoping to be free and back to their cage).  Archie wouldn’t mount Sandy at all when outside and she nipped him twice.    After they attacked I put them in the tub and it went back to him mounting her and she just sat there not knowing where she was or what was going on….he was her protector.  I took them out again and they were a little better…I think I even saw her groom him really quickly before she laid her head underneath him.  

It’s like he’s king of the tub but she’s queen of the bathroom floor, I don’t get it.    Maybe tonight I’ll put them both in the travel cage and watch some tv while I bounce them around.  We haven’t done a car ride because of my husband’s weird shifts and our busy schedule during the weekends but hopefully we’ll get to it soon…maybe this Saturday?? 

I didn’t get video of last night but I got some from the night before.  It’s a bit boring but it’s progress.  Here’s a picture of them and there’s 2 videos below.

[Deleted User]

Oh, I like your bath tub, haha. No iron stains like ours. It is really going well, skibun. Transitioning them from a confined space to a a larger area like the bathroom floor is the hardest step because that’s when they tend to have it out.
I am pretty sure the session in a box will go very well again being a small space. For the bigger space, try maybe another spot in your apartment, or on top of your couch as a compromise.
Nice clear videos, thanks for posting.

[skibunny8503]

LOL we didn’t video the part of the tub that needs cleaned lol! I want to scrub it down but have to wait until their done bonding to use any harsh chemicals to clean it
Hmm I guess I could go in the spare bedroom or the basement (brr cold down there!). Only thing about our house, not too many different spots to bond, they mostly have everywhere except our bedroom (not enough room), the basement and our spare bedroom. Let you know how the travel cage works out. Oh and I have to be careful because Archie’s tried to munch on our bath mat haha!

[Deleted User]

Maybe save the basement for Sandy and Gracie. It will be the most neutral.

[skibunny8503]

Ok I’ll save the basement for them. I just did a whole hour of bonding and it went very well! I took your advice and put them in a travel cage and flipped on some tv for a 1/2 hour. They didn’t do anything, just sat and breathed heavily. I then put them in the tub and Archie didn’t mount her at all! (well he mounted her once when I had the travel cage on the floor when I was setting up the tub). They spent 45 minutes in there and I only ran the water twice to scare them a bit. Sandy was a little more lively than usual and she even groomed Archie for about 10 seconds!! She’s never groomed him that long, maybe just one lick or so but she was full on grooming him, so proud of her! Maybe tomorrow they’ll get along outside the tub?? Who knows though.

[Deleted User]

Maybe try them on a non-slippery surface outside the tub.

[skibunny8503]

Ugh I’m a bit frusturated today.  I put them in the tub for a little bit then put them in the travel cage together and walked over to the spare bedroom to stress them a bit.  I setup the x-pen and made it pretty small and put Archie and Sandy in it.  First few moments were ok and then Sandy nipped him and then he nipped back and didn’t trust her anymore and then he would attack….they  just kept fighting.  I used a spray bottle (yay I finally bought one that works!) and sprayed them.  It was working for a bit and they would stop for a moment but go back at it.  They got kind of wet   I got fed up, put them back in the cage and back in the tub and they were fine.  What the heck?!  And another thing, Archie has been obsessively humping Gracie!  He’s doing it all the time, I don’t know if he thinks he’s going to loose or to Sandy or what.  I just know that this is so very hard and today I just don’t have enough patience.  

[Deleted User]

Those days happen during bonding. You did the right thing by going back to the bathtub with them. When things go wrong, always go back to what worked. Nipping, humping is all part of them sorting out their relationship. I wonder if you can add a stressor in their xpen. Like a blow drier on low setting  instead of spray bottle, or even a cassette player with a weird soundtrack… something not soothing…once I used a pot with a big metal spoon to clonk when mine got nippy. car ride would be good too now.

[skibunny8503]

Well we can’t do car rides…although us spinning out of control would be stressful haha! We just got a ton of snow. I wasn’t very good this week, yesterday and today I didn’t bond them *smacks* I will bond them tomorrow…it’s just been busy. I am worried about Archie’s humping with Gracie, he even tried to hump the front of her today o_O I’m just afraid if he does that again and we’re not there and she freaks out….*sigh* Any ideas or just keep pressing on with the bonding session? Gracie doesn’t seem to mind too much, she will run away but she hasn’t attacked him….yet.

[Deleted User]

If you stop the sessions you may find the buns at square one again. You don’t have to do sessions every day though, just consistently. You could do a session every other day, for example. Humping is typical behavior during bonding, Archie is probably confused being switched between the two lady-buns, poor guy, haha.

[Deleted User]

how about a ride on top the washing machine? make it a long one maybe.

[boogercj]

Or maybe try walking around with them in a box, which works with our buns. We also tried vaccuuming around a box with them in it which worked well too

Great vids btw, and super-cute bunnies!

[skibunny8503]

Last night was the longest I’ve had them together…an hour and 1/2!  She only gave him a little warning nip but that was all.  And I was soooo excited because they were so comfortable around each other!  Sandy must have flopped 4 times and Archie 2 times!!    Granted they are still in the tub but today I’m going to put them in the tub a little bit until they’re comfortable and then put them outside the tub and hopefully everything will still be ok.  Archie is still a little humpy but only did it a few times instead of most of the session.  He still goes after Gracie though but I just gotta monitor him and make sure he doesn’t get too happy and hump the other end   He did try that with Sandy in the tub last night and quickly told him no.    
I have some amazing video to show you guys and yes I caught both of them flopping over!!  I had to pretend I was reading my book (it does get quit boring sometimes.) because they would just stare at me if I was look at them and filming  

I put a fleece blanket in for something different so maybe the transition to outside the tub might be workout better??  And this time I put Sandy’s litter box in because the other day Archie peed on the blanket.  They did really well with the litter box, no fighting.  They both used it too.

I’m trying to train Sandy that grooming = good.  Everytime she grooms him, I give her a raisin.  She did pretty good today, most I’ve seen her groom him in the past few days. 

[Deleted User]

Sandy is such a lovable bunny! She is a beauty.
They are bonding Woohoo! BONDING!
Skibunny: your new year’s resolution is materializing…

[mrmac]

Those videos are great! They are really making progress! Those flops are priceless! Sandy is so big now! Is she bigger than Archie? They really seem to be getting much more comfortable around eachother. Go skibunny go!

[skibunny8503]

Posted By mrmac on 02/12/2010 10:00 AM
Those videos are great! They are really making progress! Those flops are priceless! Sandy is so big now! Is she bigger than Archie? They really seem to be getting much more comfortable around eachother. Go skibunny go!

Yes she is!  She’s about 7lbs now!  She’s a mini lop and Archie is a holland lop (I think he’s about 3.5lbs or so).  Let’s hope they’re as comfortable outside the tub than they are in the tub.  I can’t wait to get Gracie in there   She’s been pooping all over the cage recently…it’s so fun haha!

 

Petzy, I KNOW, I don’t think I’ve ever followed through on a New Years resolution   I’m kind of proud of myself.

[mrmac]

Now that you have worked with Archie, hopefully Gracie will be easier to add into the mix. Once you get into teh bonding it turns fun. I was kind of sad when my trio was done, but I got over it!haha!

[skibunny8503]

LOL well then maybe you should get a 4th so you can start bonding again   I really wanted to bond them tonight but I forgot about the Olympics (plus my brother’s b-day is today) so I’ll bond them tomorrow morning

[mrmac]

Haha no, not yet. A move is in our future so it will be around then I think. I still see my trio’s relationships evolving week to week, I don’t think they are ready for another buddy just yet.

[skibunny8503]

Last night I bonded Archie and Sandy for about an hour.  I did a 1/2 hour in the tub.  Sandy flopped over twice (so cute!) and they did pretty good with the litter box.  So after the 1/2 hour I put them out of the tub and let them roam the small bathroom.  They did really well, a lot better than they have in the past.  I put her litter box in the corner.  They did have a few nips.  It’s always when he gets to close to her behind.  He went behind the bathroom door to find out it didn’t go anywhere and had to “shimmy” backwards.  As his butt wiggled towards her, she got nervous and nipped him   But after I yelled at them they stopped and didn’t try to attack each other anymore.  I think by next week I might be able to get Gracie in the mix  

[mrmac]

Have you though about doing overnights with just Archie and Sandy? Maybe keeping them locked in the bathroom?

[skibunny8503]

I put them in the bathroom tub for about 2 hours and then I moved them out into the hallway, caging off all doorways.  They’re on 3 1/2 hours so far and are doing pretty good.  Sandy’s still territory about her litterbox when she’s in it and Archie gets near her.  My husband decided to do a little exercising and with his feet thumping on the floor it was actually a stresser   Archie thumped a few times and they cuddled together.  If they’re ok today until 9 or so (and then I’ll let Gracie run around) should I try putting Gracie in tomorrow (in the tub) or should I do another long day with the two of them together?  

[Deleted User]

I would not add Gracie until you have had Archie and Sandy together for an overnight session at least. You have to be sure that Archie and Sandy are really OK with each other before putting Gacie in. Gracie will rattle things up.

[skibunny8503]

Ok I spoke too soon. They were doing great, 4 and 1/2 hours. They were sleeping next to each other for awhile so I decided to run into the kitchen to get a quick snack and I come back and they are attacking each other ugh! I know we’re getting close, if Sandy could just trust Archie some more. When he runs past her she tenses up and lunges, so he must have done that or something to cause the attack.
I’ll def. wait to put Gracie in now. I didn’t know that you had to put them overnight with just the 2, I thought maybe that might do something to Gracie and Archie’s bond being apart for the night.

[Deleted User]

well, the reason I recommend to leave them overnight is because you are looking at a hard bond with Gracie. Some trios do better as a 3-bun combo, but most need to really stick in pairs first to make it work. Gracie in my opinion is not the type of bun to help any other bunny bond at all. so you need to have a good bond going between Archie and Sandy first, the overnight sessions should cement them to a point where they can handle facing Gracie’s attitudes.

[mrmac]

With my trio, I focused on Delilah and Dexter first. I did overnights with them for about a week maybe a little more before I added Davey in. Delilah was happy to see Davey but having Delilah already having some kind of relationship with Dexter kept the bullying of Dexter down some.

[skibunny8503]

Ok that sounds pretty good. My mom made a good point the other day when I was talking about bonding overnight and being afraid they’ll fight and we won’t hear them….my husband is on midnight shifts right now and on Saturdays he stays up as late as possible to get back in the groove so that would be a good time to do an overnight session without worrying while we’re sleeping. I have a question before I forget; after I do an overnight session, what do I do with Archie? Do I put him back in the cage with Gracie or does he go with Sandy? I wish I could put his litter box with Sandy when they have bonding sessions so maybe she won’t be so freaked out but since Gracie uses it, I can’t. I have an extra in the basement that I can clean out, do you recommend I just start with a fresh one that they’ll both use just for bonding?
You guys have been so great! I think I would have given up by now if it wasn’t for this board!

[Deleted User]

Archie will go back with Gracie after the overnight session. This will be an important milestone in your trio binding. He will return to Gracie after some absence and with Sandy’s scent! Gracie will be shocked… supervise carefully.
–I’d go with a fresh box just for bonding sessions.

[skibunny8503]

Yesterday I did a bathtub session for about 3 hours I think.  I had to stop since someone peed on the blanket and I had to clean it up so I put them back but they ended on a good note…actually there was no bad note at all they didn’t fight.  So being tired of sitting in the bathroom all the time we decided to put them in the living room but with towels on the ground like we did with Archie and Gracie’s bonding session.  It makes it a neutral area even though it really isn’t.  We don’t have to many neutral areas here.  The first minute or two was ok, they ate some hay, pellets hopped around a bit.  We tried making some noise with a paper towel roll going across the x-pen to make them a little scared.  I don’t know what happened but I have NEVER seen Archie like this.  He attacked Sandy and made the loudest growling sound and when we tried to separate them he growled at me, trying to bite my hand.  He sounded like a little pig grunting about.  He was pure evil at that moment.  It’s like we were getting somewhere and Sandy finally is trusting Archie and not attacking him and now we’re back to square one and he’s attacking her.  I don’t get it.  My husband is convinced that this isn’t going to work out and I’m starting to think so to.  We can’t do tub sessions forever.  

[Deleted User]

It does not mean it isn’t going to work out. Remember you are asking a lot of Archie here, to accept a new rabbit into his kingdom.
I would scrap the bathtub sessions as they are not going to move you forward now. They have figured out to get along in the tub but outside of it they still need to work it out.
Go back to close sessions. Take 6 grids and make a cube. You can spend a whole week doing cube sessions, long ones, stressy ones, calm ones…. If there is attacking don’t give in: settle them down and continue on with the cube session. Then, you can build up the cube by making it two cubes wide and go from there. It will then be a stationary bonding cage. You get my drift? You are going to build up and around them using NIC grids from both their condos, making their together-space bigger and bigger. This is what I would do.

[mrmac]

Keep being persistent with the sessions. Like Petzy said try mixing up the sessions now. The bathtub for Archie and Sandy won’t work anymore, they have outsmarted it. Maybe try the cube, a table top (supervise-we don’t need any bunnies falling off tables!) or counter/desk top (I did this with my trio, it was a good stressor for them). I also tried putting them in a laundry basket/box/spare cage and walked around with it shakning it a little both inside and outside. The biggest thing is not to give up, as annoying and frustrating as it is.

[Deleted User]

I feel I want to add to what I posted yesterday, skibun, as I was in a rush and had to log off.

You mentioned that you are running out of neutral areas. I was wondering where you are planning to house the rabbits for their cementing phase once they are bonded. In this context I figured you may want to think about taking down Sandy’s existing condo, use the grids to make a cube for sessions such as mrmac mentioned: motion stress on top of a washing mashine or walking around with the 2 inside the cube and shaking it up a bit etc. Then you can build a new pen for Archie and Sandy in a different spot, away from Gracie’s condo, in another room, your kitchen for example. You would start out small, and build it up. You would be using Sandy’s condo grids to do this. You’d want to rinse the grid panels beforehand in your shower. Since Sandy still needs a condo to live in until she can move in with Archie, you would take down her condo gradually, as you increase the bonding pen for her and Archie.

I used the cube a lot for my bonding to speed it up.

At some point I replaced the rug at the bottom with a sheet of newspaper and hay and also attached a water bottle so the rabbits were able to eat, drink and potty. They won’t in the beginning, though, so you keep those sessions short until they get more relaxed in the cube.

[Deleted User]

oh, and once you get to that point of moving in Archie with Sandy, you will still have Gracie’s condo grids to work with. You would essentially repeat the process with Sandy and Gracie, taking grids from Gracie’s condo and eventually setting up a smaller condo in your basement where Gracie has never been. First you would go through stress session with the two girlbuns of course.

At the end of all this, you would be able to assemble 1 large condo in your office again for all three. It is however very important that all 3 rabbits take a hiatus from their old territory for at least 3 weeks; this will prevent their budding bond from going back to the “mosh pit” (a new thing MimzMUm invented for rabbits that don’t get along)

[skibunny8503]

I guess we were going to cement their bond in the hallway like we did with Gracie and Archie since it’s outside our bedroom (but it’s not really neutral).  I kind of get what your saying about the cage….if I read it right.  I wouldn’t even know where to take apart her cage because she loves sitting up on the 3rd level all afternoon.  With bonding 2 all we did was spray down the floor and whip it up and redo their cage a little but I guess it’s different with 3.  In the meantime; today I went over to my parents house, about a 15 min. drive (lots of weaving through pot holes from the winter season).  I put them in separate travel cages because I was the only one in the car and I didn’t want to chance them fighting and it’s hard to put them in one carrier (I need a bigger carrier for Sandy pretty soon!).  Drove over there and set up the x-pen and blankets in the basement.  Put them in there and they did ok for about an hour or so.  It’s def. Archie that is now starting the fights.  He kept going to over to Sandy all the time and putting his head under her to be groomed but she wanted nothing to do with grooming and would shove her head under his.  She was being very demanding and persistant of that.  I think Archie finally got fed up with her and started nipping at her.  She got a big chunk of his fur and even bit ME!  That hurt a lot too, I didn’t have gloves on at the time but it didn’t matter anyways since she my arm.  I picked him up and let them cool down for a bit.  Put them back and a few minutes later he attacked her again (even started growling) and got a big chunk of her fur (so they’re even now).  The phone rang for me and I put Sandy in her cage.  After the phone call (my husband) explaining everything that had happened, I put them both on the couch and made them sit next to each other and then gave them a treat and ended it.    So now we know why he’s attacking her but I really don’t have any idea how she can groom him.  They are absolutely fine in the tub and she will even groom him like crazy but outside, nothing.  I was going to close in the x-pen some more so they have less room because maybe she wanders off because she has more room than in the tub and feels she can just walk away.  It just seems so hard and we’re not even on the 3rd one yet!  Archie and Gracie took about 2 weeks and I hardly had patience for that   It’s been 2 months just for the two of them.    Can I just fedex them over to you, Petzy

[Deleted User]

yes, fedex them up to Alberta! I have all new neutral spaces for them, haha! Bonding by fedex…hmm…there is another idea you came up with, cargo stress! (j/k!)
I really want your trio to bond, they will be so nice together.
Do not give up. Mops was like Archie, attacking Neigey for no reason at all. It will stop. Don’t think about Gracie too much, one thing at a time.
I like your plan for cementing, that sounds good. No need to take apart the cool condo.
Keep at it, Archie needs to get it out of his system, he will get tired of attacking her. Protect Sandy though, wear gloves.

[skibunny8503]

My arm still hurts from the bite, geez I never gotten bitten like that before! It’s all black and blue. Actually it wouldn’t have mattered if I wore gloves at that moment, I think she jumped up when she did that and got the middle of my arm (through my hoodie!)…bad Sandy. *shakes head*
Well found out the washing machine won’t work at all. I don’t know if they’re just not phased by it or it’s not loud and scary enough. Put them in the basket with a blanket overtop because they kept trying to jump out. I even shook the basket but they kept trying to pop their heads out and Archie almost jumped out of the basket too! So there went that session…I’m just not in a good enough mood this week to have patience for them. lol! I’ll try another session tonight. But the washing machine is a no no for us since no matter how careful we were to try to keep them in they tried to jump out o_O

[jerseygirl]

I found covering the pen sides with a sheet helped with my 2.  Sorry, I don’t have much to offer, just some bonding (((vibes))).

[Deleted User]

Posted By skibunny8503 on 02/21/2010 01:49 PM
the washing machine is a no no for us since no matter how careful we were to try to keep them in they tried to jump out o_O

 

that’s why I used the cube. It has a lid. Don’t let the bunnies dictate what goes and what doesn’t. if you want to use the washing machine, you will. If Archie wants to attack Sandy, you will stop him by pushing his head down. You are in charge. These rabbits are not allowed to drive you crazy.

[skibunny8503]

LOL ok I’ll try not to let them drive me insane   Oh geez I should have used the cube that would have been so much better!  Ok next time I’ll use the cube!  It’s hard with Archie because well with Gracie when she was about to attack her ears went forward and you knew but with Archie he’ll be fine one minute and not the other and just attack.  Would petting him when he pushes his head down and Sandy not doing anything maybe help his aggression?  I’m thinking tonight setting up the x-pen so the bathroom is smaller and putting them there maybe putting 5 layers of sweaters on too

Thanks for the vibes Jersey, I think I’ll need as much as possible with these 3 devils

[Deleted User]

Petting them both helps keep them checked. Petting them hard down the length of their bodies I mean.

Another thing to try is putting the two rabbits on your legs. One rabbit on each leg and keep moving both your legs in and out as you are sitting on a chair in a upright position, so that the rabbits ‘meet’ when your knees meet. It is a stressing technique and keeps you in control of how close they get to each other. If one rabbit decides to jump off, it’s OK, it isn’t very high. You might want to wear thick jeans, lined ones… LOL.

When you have them inside the cube sitting on top of the washing machine and they act up, pick up the cube briefly and swiftly put it back down hard, like a thump.

[skibunny8503]

OMG, I’m so angry right now!  I really don’t think I have the patience for them anymore   I had my husband make the cube before he went to work and I put a blanket in and put Archie and then Sandy in.  He snapped and attacked her.  I thought maybe it’s the blanket so I took that out and put a tile down and but Sandy back in.  He went at her again and she fought back just growling at each other.  I had gloves on and I put them in to separate them and Sandy bit the front of my hand (and I have skinny hands so it HURT!!), and that’s when I pretty much got upset with them.  Yelling at them to stop, I pushed their heads down and said NO!!  A few seconds later let them go and they just attacked each other.  I was too afraid that someone was going to get hurt, just circling around growling and biting at each other.  He just really hates her now and I can’t even get them next to each other without them biting each other.  UGH I’m just so upset right now.  I don’t know how much longer I can keep this up.  Obviously I didn’t end it on a good note because I was just so upset and put them back in their cages.  We’re actually worse than we were in the beginning, he can’t stand her now and wants to kill her.  I dunno, I’m just really loosing patience here.  I just don’t see them bonding.  I know one thing’s for sure I’ll never try a trio bond again after this.

[Barbie]

Awww I’msorry to hear about all the trouble you’re having with the bonding. I’m a bit late to this thread but I want to send some (((((((((((((good bunny bonding vibes))))))))))) your way!!!

I haven’t read everything so I apologize if this has already been said:

One thing that I do when the bunnies have been fighting… I hold them down like you were doing on their shoulders, and smoosh them right up next to each other so their sides are touching and they’re smelling each other but you have a grip on their shoulders and your (gloved!) fingers are close enough to their heads to be able to turn their heads away if they attempt to bite. Hold them there for a bit (as long as they’ll let you without trying to squirm away from you) and pet them if you can. Then end the session. I don’t know if that even helps (Petzy, opinions?) but I’ve done that to end the bonding on a “good note” when the session wasn’t going very well. They way I see it, forced into that position or not, they were touching and not fighting which is a good thing.

I know it’s easier said than done, but… animals are very intuitive and can pick up on your feelings, so try to remain calm. If you go into the bonding session stressed or worried or if you become frustrated, they’ll feed off of that vibe and become stressed/worked up themselves. So if you have to scream, put the bunnies away and go scream at a tree I try to keep my voice no louder than a stern “I mean business” tone when they’re being bad. I think tone has more impact on them than volume. On the flip side, praise them if they’re being good.

Stick with it! (((Hugs!)))

[Barbie]

Oh, for future bonding sessions, have something like a pasta strainer (anything that they can’t get through – a NIC grid probably isn’t ideal because unless you have ginormous bunnies, they’ll probably be able to get their noses through the bars and still bite) nearby to stick between them if they start going at it to save your poor fingers!.

[skibunny8503]

Thanks Barbie! I didn’t think they would attack like that or else I wouldn’t have done it by myself but I just got over my head with their attacks and just had to end it before I got to upset…which at that point I was starting to cry Haha yeah I shouting was probably unnecessary. When I came into if I was calm and thought they would be ok, I knew they might fight but not as soon as I put her down with him. Archie was not pleased at my yelling either, he thumped and Gracie just looked at him like *Gasp* What did you do to piss her off so much?! lol! My mom asked if they made muzzles for rabbits….wouldn’t that be a little better, then he could get his aggression out without hurting themselves! lol! I just need a good nights sleep and hopefully be better tomorrow.
Probably just stick them in the tub tomorrow since they are best there….hopefully they still are.

[Deleted User]

I’m sorry skibunny, (healing vibes for your hand…)I know how discouraging it can be. You might feel better after some days’ rest from bonding sessions. It won’t hurt to take a break. Even the rabbits will appreciate the break from the aggression.

Barbie’s description of how to force ending on a good note is exactly what I had to do with Valmore and Clifford. They hated each other and good notes just didn’t exist between them. I did the same for Mops and Neigey, it usually works well.

Remember that you don’t have to bond them. But you can if you want to, now or at a later point. What you are seeing is a vicious cycle of attack and retaliate. Your two friends have a little grudge going on. If you want to do a session again do it on the premise of total restraint, (yes, I too, have looked into muzzles for rabbits, and they don’t make them…)holding them down in a box on your lap so that they are touching but cannot fight, nip or charge in any way. These sessions are draining because there is no reward for you. When I did them I would just focus on TV and not think of the frustration I felt over the bunnies wanting to fight.
The other thing I had suggested in the past is the wet feet session in a sink with a little water at the bottom. You had said that they would jump out, in that case, eiither get your husband’s help, or try it in the tub.Only do this if you house is warm and dry with the heat turned up so nobunny gets cold afterwards, rabbits dry slowly. With very aggressive buns that will fight to break skin you might want to have a cup of room temp. water on hand during any session to break up a serious fight without getting your finger chomped off. You would dump this water on the aggressor’s lower back in case they lock their jaws onto one another. It startles them apart. I always have the cup of water with me during sessions in larger space but only had to use it twice.

You could suspend any bonding until the summer and start fresh with an outdoor bonding pen at your parents’ possibly.

I would like to point out that you are not at square one really. You had come very far with Archie and Sandy and it is not unusual for two newly bonding rabbits to want to fight.

How is Archie doing with Gracie?

[Deleted User]

Skibunny, I was thinking about your bonding some more, and watched the videos of Archie and Sandy. Those looked so promising.

There are rabbit bonding situations that aren’t about ‘good notes’ or grooms or signs of friendship. They are about preventing bloodshed and only that. Take this approach and with patience you can wear them down. Any session without bloodshed = step in the right direction.

[skibunny8503]

Thanks guys! I’ve taken a few days break and might start up tomorrow. Archie and Gracie are doing very well, nothing has really changed between then (except he does hump her sometimes….haven’t seen it recently though). BUT today I was in the living room and I heard something, I went to the office to see what they were doing and Gracie I think was trying to hump him but started in the front and climbed over him and then humped him the proper way. Kind of freaked him out and I’ve only seen her do that twice. Sandy was laying outside her cage right across from them. So I think Gracie was like “This is MY man *hump hump*” LOL! And Gracie poops everywhere in their cage still but I knew that was going.

[Author]

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