New member need advice please!

[marneyron]

Hi Everyone,

I have recently “adopted” a neutered male and unspayed female. The male is a german lop aged two and the female agerman french lop x aged about two years as well.

As advised by the sanctuary I placed their cages next to eachother for a few days and let them out to excercise individually.

I have now begun to let them out together but whenever the male approaches the female she runs away and climbs back into her cage. This was unexpected as she is at least twice the size of Ron, so I thought she would hold her own! On two occasions Ron has chased Marney and climbed into her cage before I could get accross the room. This was awful as she began biting him and he retaliated until I managed to pull off the top of the cage so she could get out.

Naively I imagined that litter training and bonding would not be a problem and on the whole they are not too messy.

I am a bit confused though as my rabbits seem to poo everywhere in the cage sometimes even on the food bowls, is this normal?

Both rabbits lived with a partner before they were rehomed with me, but sadly they were separated as apparently not many people want two very large rabbits. I think they have always been kept in hutches until now.

They currently have the run of my kitchen and dining room ( although on a time share basis at the moment!).

Please can someone advise me on how to proceed with the bonding and when to intervene… i am very worried about making matters worse.

Thank You

[Gravehearted]

hi there, welcome to binkybunny ~

i think a lot of the issue stems from the fact that your female bunny is not spayed yet. Considering her age, I would recommend having it done asap, since uterine cancer rates are very high in females. Once she is spayed, you can try to work with them again. unspayed females are often VERY aggressive, so bonding is very difficult. also – since they are not bonded, litter training will be muchhhh harder – since they are marking their territory.

[Beka27]

i also want to add that if the boy was neutered less than a month ago he can still impregnate the female. i’m assuming it’s been over a month, but just in case, you need to be aware of this. the poops are a territory-marking thing, esp. since they are new to your home and they are not bonded. under bunny info you can find tips for littertraining and bonding, but your first step is getting her spayed. do you have a rabbit vet yet?

[marneyron]

Hi,

Thanks for the replies and yes the Ron was neutered over 4 weeks ago.

To be honest I am a little hesitant about having the Marney spayed as she is our pet and will have no opportunity to get pregnant.

I am a bit concerned about the operation itself, although I have always neutered my other animals cats, dogs etc, I know that Rabbits can pass away quickly from fright,shock etc.

She is also a VERY big rabbit and I worry about the anaesthetic. Do rabbits usually recover well without any problems?

They are both very beautiful, but she likes to keep herself to herself, she has only just started to sit near my feet whilst I am on the computer.

If I lay down on the floor she will allow me to smooth her head but does not really like to be handled and growls like a dog!

We recently lost our family dog who we had for 11 years and it was just awful having to go downstairs, the bunnies have really helped.

I have two little boys 1 yr and 3 and a half, the rabbits were suppposed to be for the eldest. He is very good never tries to pick them up and lays on his tummy to offer them food. I am just hoping that they become more accustomed to us or maybe they are too old to adjust from their hutch life?

My husband works nights, so in truth the rabbits have become more of Companions to me. The female is quite confident with movement ,house sounds etc, she can be very grumpy though so maybe spaying her would help.

Also, on a separate note every time I give the male the smallest amount of greens his motions become terribly loose and big. This happens with lettuce cabbage or brocoli, shall I just leave off the greens and will he have enough nutrients from the rabbit food and carrots? I am feeding them both WAGG food as I live in England.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me.

Shelley

 

[BinkyBunny]

Welcome marneyron. I am so sorry for you loss. It is so hard to lose our animal companions.

Your bunnies sound beautiful. I love big bunnies! Regarding spaying – even though the female has no chance of getting pregnant, there three main reason why a spay is still a good idea.

1. Most important: Unspayed femailes are high risk for cancer of their reproductive organs. Many statistics say it’s around 80%. Even other stats that are not that high, it’s still over 50% chance, and those numbers are scary.

2. False pregancies can still occur. They usually last about 3 weeks, and each time they happen, it’s stressful on your bunny. Stress affects a bunny’s immune system as well as can cause a serious digestive upset.

3. Aggression type behaviors and urine smell is usually stronger

However, wth that said, you are right that bunnies are more sensitive to anesthesia, and that’s why it is important to find a rabbit savvy vet. As long as you have one, then it shouldn’t be a problem. A vet who is not rabbit savvy can be a danger to a rabbit of any size.

Here is a list of some rabbit vets in the UK. http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/Vet_EU-UK.html Hopefully there will be one that is somewhat close to you.

Even with this list, things could have changed, different vets, etc, so you should still go through a screening process. Here is a list of questions you should ask (it also provides the answers, so you know how the vet SHOULD answer http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/spay-neuter.html#good-questions

Regarding poo problems – cabbage and broccoli can cause gas issues, so it may be causing digestive upsets.  Some bunnies can eat anything and not have a problem, while others are especially sensitve.  So it sounds like these are things that do not set well with him. Do you have access to fresh dark leafy greens and herbs, like dandelion, parsley, cilantro, mint, dill. 

EDITED:  I forgot to ask – How old are you bunnies?

Also, what kind of lettuce are you feeding.  That can make a difference.  NO iceberg.  Romaine is okay.

For a more comprehensive list check this out: https://binkybunny.com/Default.aspx?tabid=144   Make sure though, they have leafy greens though too.  i’m not sure what you have readily available there.

[LittlePuffyTail]

Welcome to Binky Bunny.

I know it can be scary when considering having a bunny spayed/neutered. A few years ago I had my female lop spayed, I was so scared but there were no complications and in a day or two she was back to normal. My new bunny will be getting spayed in a few months.

I think the benefits of spaying outweigh the risks of the surgery. By spaying your bun you are giving her the chance to live a healthier, longer life. Although it’s obviously your decision I recommend you do as much research on the subject as you can and then make an informed decision.

ps. I wanna see some pics of your big bunnies!!

[Beka27]

i have a 4 year old son. we got our rabbit last summer. she was part of his “birthday present” (or so we told him, but my husband and i both knew she was actually for the whole family with me as the primary caretaker.) she has bit Michael a few times, and it was bad. i would not risk having a small child unsupervised around an unspayed female b/c their aggression level is so much higher and they can turn nasty in a moment. females are more territorial than males, and when they are unaltered it is much worse. at this point you need to start to teach your children to have a healthy fear of them. they should not be picking them up under any circumstances. rabbit can twist and break their backs very easily when trying to get away. by all means, everyone should go about their lives, but stress that they cannot be too loud or else they will scare the buns. it is good that your son is interacting on the floor with them.

here is the link to the House Rabbit Society’s FAQ on rabbits and children. http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/children.html

[Sage Cat]

Hi Marney & Ron,

So sorry to hear about your dog – it is so tough to loose a friend.

Have you ever had rabbits before? Isn’t it crazy that they growl?

Sounds like you are off to a great start and have gotten some really great advice.

Laying on the floor with my bunny’s has done wonders for us getting to know each other on the same “level”.

Considering that your buns are only about 2 and can live till 12 – 15, then is is defiantly not to late for them to adjust to “house” life.

We all always have to be careful with young children and pets – in the long run, you teaching them to respect pets (aka life) is a great thing.

[Sage Cat]

PS – have you seen the movie Marnie?

It is Alfred Hitchcock staring Tippy Hedren & Sean Connery. It is totally chauvinistic but that is kind of the “kitschy charm” of movies from that era.

I love it!

[rabbitsmba]

Binkybunny posted all the facts and info you need for why spaying is so important.

As for the pooping everywhere, this is completely normal for bunnies in a new environment and especially if bonding is involved. They are marking their territory to let the other know where they stand. Spaying will help and once your bunns are more used to their surroundingd and each other, it should dissipate.

Also, when you are allowing Marney and Ron to be together, make sure it is in neutral territory. Try a bathroom, spare bedroom or basement. This way, no rabbit can lay “claim” to a space and be aggressive about it. It will also prevent Ron from chasing Marney back into her cage where she will attack him as she sees him as an “intruder” in her space.

Neutral dates can start off as short as 2-3 minutes. Have treats on hand, read body language to avoid a fight and end on a happy note. Do this daily and slowly increase the time each date.

Good luck – we are all here to help you along the way!

[marneyron]

Hi everyone,
Thanks for your replies I think this site is fantastic!
It is great to know that I can ask for advice and have so many knowledgable and caring people answer.
I have had rabbits before when I was a little girl, but they were in a hutch and to be honest most of the hard work fell on my mum!

I have always grown up around animals and as I became older have adopted sometimes helped many kinds of animals domestic and wild.
The list goes from hamsters,rabbits , guinea pigs hedgehogs, dogs, cats, budgies,pidgeons, crows and seagulls. I was brought up to respect animals as are my children, but my lack of knowledge on bunnies at the moment is pitifully inadequate and I like to try to offer my pets the best.
Lucky I found this site and you lovely people, though I am sure you will become sick of my constant questions! lol!

I have never liked looking at animals in cages and when I used to have my 10 budgies they were all room free.
To be honest when our family went to the rescue it was on the intention of homing two Guinea pigs. I watched my little boy with the piggies, they were very young quite scrabbly and small. Although I would never leave my children unsupervised with the animals, I could envisage him trying to pick them up, them falling or maybe him holding them too tightly.

I looked over at the hutch and saw beautiful Marney, My little lad saw her at the same time and told me he wanted the fat guinea with the big ears!
It just made sense, that hopefully we could offer her a far better life than she had and at the same time she would be far too heavy for my little boy to pick up. She brought us so much joy, even though she is a bit of a grump, that we decided three weeks later to home Ron.
(My little boy is a Harry Potter fan..hence Hermione or marney for short and Ron….and I had such lovely names..sigh!)

Marney was found at a busy round-about with another rabbit and Ron was found wandering the streets, reclaimed by his owners from the rescue then sent back when they split up. Apparently he was a show rabbit.

In regards to the spaying thank you for the information, I never imagined the risk of cancer was so high,,,terribly frightening.
Luckily we have had the same family vet for over 25 years so I will speak to him soon. I think I might just let her settle for a few weeks longer.
From what you are saying it is definately the way to go and I trust my vet completely, the risk of cancer alone outweighs my concerns over the anaesthetic.

Someone mentioned the lettuce… I have been giving them mixed lettuce leaves so probably had iceberg lettuce with it.
I also have tried them on dandelion and milk thistle which they love. I think you are right Marney seems to eat anthing but Ron I have to be very careful with I guess it is just trial and error at the moment to see what does agree with him.

On a bonus note, not sure waht happened today but they both snuggled up shoulder to shoulder for over an hour… then jumped into their repective cages and have gone back to running about like mad things! oh well it was good while it lasted and at least there is hope.

Sorry for waffling just wanted to let you know a little bit about us and thank you for your help.
Kindest regards
Shelley

[skunklionshow]

I too LOVE this site!  W/o it, I never would have become the bunny expert I am (said very sarcastically)  I had a spayed and unspayed female together.  They were fine and super cuddle buddies until one day….Jessi (unspayed) ended up getting injured so bad, she needed multiple stitches, over 2 weeks cage rest, & losts of wound care / medication administeration.  I bring this up anytime people having bonding issues & have observed bunny fighting.  W/ that bunny fighting can be very visciuos and have awful consequences.  Remember, bunnies have thin skin.  I was never able to have these 2 bunnies in the same room together again.  Even in separate cages, during segregated hip hop time, they would try to attack each other through their cages.

I would definately read Markus Darkus’s bonding journal w/ Mary Ann (I hope I’m remembering that correctly).  I followed the bonding suggestions on this site and ended up w/ a successful bond b/t Jessi and an unaltered male.  She since has been spayed.  Her recovery required some hand feeding, but otherwise she did well.  There are many success surgical stories on this site, I’d case more successes than problems.  I will be attempting Leo’s neuter (for the 4th time) again soon (but that’s another story).

As an FYI…my Jessi was a super mean beast b/f she was spayed.  I have many scars from her multiple attacks.  She hasn’t attacked me, well like she used to, since her spay.  Occassionally she will lunge, but is easily corrected w/ no further aggressive acts.  Her box habits have become impeccable since the spay as well.  The only “accidents” she has had have been territorial marking on Cat items.  Actually, it could be Leo my unneutered male.  Since she had peed on the cat bed b/f the spay, I’m assuming it was her again.

Please “harass” us regularly.  Besides pictures, it may be helpful for u to post your city b/c we have many people from “across the pond”.  I’m thinking they can provide more specific directives.  I’ve learned that we use different terminology for some veggies as well as other things.  Welcome and post those big bunny pics.  I dream of having a big bunny someday.

[Deleted User]

I think the same thing of gravehearted , “I think a lot of the issue stems from the fact that your female bunny is not spayed yet. Considering her age, I would recommend having it done asap, since uterine cancer rates are very high in females. Once she is spayed, you can try to work with them again. unspayed females are often VERY aggressive, so bonding is very difficult. also – since they are not bonded, litter training will be muchhhh harder – since they are marking their territory.”

[Beka27]

like Skunklionshow said… please continue to harass us. we want everyone to be informed b/c it gives buns the best chance. i would speak with your vet and make sure he is experienced with rabbits. caring for dogs and cats are very different than buns. read BinkyBunny’s above post again, she posted a link halfway down that has questions (and the correct answers) you should ask your vet. if your family vet cannot help, hopefully he can refer you to someone who is more experienced. remember, it’s more than just the spay that you are needing vet care for… in case of a medical emergency, you need someone who will be able provide fast, and correct, treatment.

[babybunsmum]

welcome here

i was so glad to have found this site… glad you like it too!  you’ve gotten some great advice and i think you’re off to a really excellent start. marney & ron are lucky to have found their way to you & your family.

i can offer a personal testiment to spaying.  baby bun is my 3rd rabbit.  she’ll be 8 yrs old soon & was never spayed.  exactly like you thought, i also thought since there was no chance for her to be impregnated that it was fine.  plus my vet told me about the dangers of rabbits & anesthetic & that rabbits stress easily when i adopted my fist bun several years earlier and this stuck with me.  

a couple of years ago baby developed a bump on her belly.  it slowly grew larger & larger until last year when it started to look sore & irritated.  i was terrified about bringing her to a vet but i had to do something more than trying to keep it clean because it just kept getting worse.  then a heard through a friend that some one she knows has buns & takes them to an exotic vet nearby.  i took baby in there about the same time i found this forum & suddenly i opened the door to current medical care for buns.  thank goodness!

baby had a lumpectomy (which turned out to be a mammary carcinoma) and although she’s too old for a spay now she’s doing really great.  she still has a great risk of developing uterine cancer and so my vet is careful to monitor her but her wee belly remains lump-free. 

i adopted pinky earlier this year & had her spayed after she settled in nicely.  she was about 1 yr old when spayed and boy o boy did it alter her behaviour for the better.  she is no longer ‘frisky’ with the dog and seems much more relaxed around me for cuddles (she used to nip me quite a bit).  also, after having seen baby suffer through her sore lump & then sugery i really feel much better that i’m doing more to help pinky avoid a similar fate. 

i would encourage you to talk to your trusted vet about the spay.  if this vet is not experienced with rabbits ask for a referral to an exotic vet who does have rabbit experience.   an experienced rabbit vet will explain the risks of surgery to you but will emphasize that the benefits outweigh the risks.

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