New bonding of pre-bonded bunnies not good

[CottonTiger]

Hello,

I am trying to re-bond my female bunny (Cotton) and male bunny (Tiger). About one month ago I had my female bunny, Cotton, spayed.

These two bunnies are brother and sister and have been together all their lives (1 year), except after the neuter operation of Tiger. After his operation they bonded really quick again.

This time it is not going so good. The fist time we had them together a week ago, they didn’t act agressiv at all They even groomed each other after only a few minutes of being together in the neutral room. No fighting whatsoever.

The second time we had them together (the same day, a few hours later) , they suddenly fought. We had to keep on seperating them and it was hard to get them to calm down.

They seem to make some progress (grooming each other) and then all of a sudden they fight again. They will stay on different ends of the pen (about 50cm away from each other) and play around. As soon as Cotton goes towards Tiger, he tries to jump her. At the beginning she would just go back to her corner. Now, she fights back.

At the moment we are frustrated with the non-existent progress they are making. I thought it would be easier to bond them the second time.

Does someone have tipps, how to best go on with the bonding process? I change cages with the two of them daily and let each of them out on their own. I have heard that some do not let the bunnies out alone unless they are out together. Should we not let them have their own play time?

 

Thanks for any tipps you can give.

[jerseygirl]

I would try stress techniques for a broken bond. So things like travel together in a carrier or box (supervised) while someone else drives. Or putting them in a box or basket and putting it on the washing machine while it’s operating. Then follow with a session in a neutral space.

[Deleted User]

Possibly Tiger feels he has to assert himself toward the ‘new’ spayed Cotton. He might pick up a different scent on her from her alteration and so he treats her like a new bunny. Ditto Jerseygirl on the stress bonding.

[CottonTiger]

Hello,

We tried in the bathtub trick, at first there were fights then they claimed each a corner, and flopped, they groom themselves. and mostly ignore each other, but then as soon as one would try to sniff the other, the cruffles start again. We are always talking to them to “BE NICE” and  use a load “NO” when they  try to fight.

We tried the car ride in a basket, that went real well they cuddled and tried to both sit on my lap. However when we got home they went back directly  to the tub. There was only one small scuffel after a few minuets ,then they went back to there corners and flopped.,” Now What” should we get another neutral area?   Or  keep trying the tub?

The only other neutral place is my brothers apartment, and he has caged ferrets. that is too much stress I  think???.

How often can you stress them? please help I am unsure how to proceed.

I thank you  for any suggestions.

 

[Deleted User]

that’s all good. you are preventing any fights but giving them secure time together. you will need to continue these sessions until they don’t try to fight at all anymore in the tub. once they relax there you can move on to a larger space. I would use the brother’s apt as neutral/stressful place. but it is too early for that. bunnies that try to scuffle in a small space will certainly fight in a large area. so let them find a way to get along in the bathtub by repeating the sessions daily for a bit, until you see impromvement.

[Deleted User]

When they scuffle do you see one bunny trying to get away? This would be a promising sign.

[CottonTiger]

Hello. again,  Tiger and Cotton Bonding Update

We had another bunny date in the bathtub, this morning they were 2 hrs, supervised and they tried to fight occasionally. when they ignored each other they were put back in their cages, tonight we tried again, this time it was better. they had less scuffels that had to be broke up, and he snuggled alittle with cotton, without biting, then after a few minuets he nipped, and she went after him, (that is usually what happens neither one wants to back down.)  but I stopped them  by placing my hand between them. and separating Them. I hope tomorrow will prove to be even better.

Keeping everyone informed of the progress, although it is slow gowing, for  being a previously bonded brother and sister.

till next time.

Thanks

 

 

 

[Deleted User]

You will have to wait it out then, the sessions have to be repeated in the tub until one of them starts to realize it is smarter to back down or until both begin to chill out.

[CottonTiger]

 

Hello again,

We had a break though, after this mornings bathtub date ,and things did’t go to well. I held them on my lap and made them stay.petting them  the whole time, Boy ! was tiger ticked at me (i think) he sat their the whole time and clicked his teeth, at turbo speed.     then we put them back in their cages. (which we have been rotating them in cages through the whole bonding process.)

This evening we had another bathtub date there was only alittle circleing this time and when i separated them Tiger went to his cvorner and pouted. then after  few munUets he went over to Cotton and put his head down near her i kept 2 fingers between their heads so he couldn’t bite because they are lop ear rabbits we can’r tell if the may bite except for the tail.

Anyway Cotton started grooming Tiger  for several minuets, then put her head down he started grooming her. Because the bathtub was needed we had to cut their date short it was only 30 min or so. But i think maybe they have decided to like each other??

we will continue with the Bathtub until they can stay without fighting or biting? I thinK. Then can we try semi neutral room? The only neutral place in the house is the bathtub.

THANKS

 

 

 

[jerseygirl]

then after few munUets he went over to Cotton and put his head down near her i kept 2 fingers between their heads so he couldn’t bite because they are lop ear rabbits we can’r tell if the may bite except for the tail.

You’re game!

Good progress! Maybe use a car as a neutral space? Don’t have to be driving.
I’m wondering if you see things go back to how they were before the break, whether you can just pen them up to cement the bond again? Not sure if that’s moving too fast though…

[CottonTiger]

Well! my fury  friends, did well again this morning. after minor scuffels, they calmed down and snuggled. but again it wasn’t long. because of others things interfering of course my hand (gloved naturally) was there petting and keeping them from nipping

I wonder how long it would have went! that way, if  we  hadn’t been disturbed.

tried again this afternoon didn’t go so well back to ignoring each or trying to bite with the other one not backing down. However I noticed that if Tiger doesn’t nip first Cotton will not try to attack. back. Humm!

Maybe I will try again this evening, or wait until tomorrow morning. this bunny bonding thing is sure tireing. I think they will wear me down before each other. HA HA!

Have a nice Sunday!

[CottonTiger]

Hello again ,  I am starting to get discouraged.

last night we had our bathtub date and cotton groomed Tiger. He didn’t groom her.

this morning they tried to fight. no grooming , they ignored each other too. Cotton went over to tiger( not threatening )he jumped at her. Then naturally she puts her tail up and jumps back.

I am beginning to think we should try something else. Progress is slow going. I know it could take awhile,  but it is frustrating. We can’t keep

them in separate cages indefinately.  Probably will try stressing again.?

My question is should I not interfer so much? as soon as one goes to investigate the other I put my hand on one, or 2  gloved fingers in front of their heads . And talk to them. have my gloved hand ready just in case. They do not like the gloves.

I Try to do 3 Dates a day.. maybe that is too much? I have tried letting them out separetly for awhile too; before the date. that doesn’t seem to make a difference.

I am at a loss now, what to do , or if I should continue bathtub dates still for awhile?

My dad says we should just put them togther in one place and let them fight it out. I am too soft hearted I don’t want one or the other to get hurt..

Oh well! 

Maybe i will try again Later!

thanks for listening.

 

[Monkeybun]

I like Petzy’s cube idea that she had with hers. Its been great bonding my 2, doesn’t allow for much room for them to bite at each other or charge and chase. Plus I can just pick it up and give it a shake if they try to misbehave.

[Monkeybun]

Suppose I should have said.. its a cube made of the NIC grids, 1x1x1. Its great

[CottonTiger]

Thanks, however Since i live in germany i am not sure where or how to get these girids. I will have to see, then you make 2 sections? placing each rabbit in one? I thought about putting them in a boxed area with a wire divider between them? that was how we started out after Cottons surgery.. then when she was well enought to jump over we had to put her in a cage.
I will have to see how to do this cube and if i can get the grids?
thanks.

[Deleted User]

Hi Cotton, try a box, 30cm x 30cm x 30cm, not much bigger than that, they have to be touching each other. It will work too, only that you have to make a lid that you can see through. Without lid they won’t stay put for long. Put the box on your lap and stroke the two rabbits. You can make a long session like this. It will transfer their scent from one to the other.
As for the ‘fighting it out’. It can work but it can also go horribly wrong. If both seem to want to engage in the scuffles, don’t let them fight it out. You need to be sure first that one will back down. Have you let the scuffles in the bathtub go on for any amount of time? How do these scuffles proceed exactly? Do both charge at each other?

[TARM]

Petzy, if I ship my bunnies to you so you can work your bonding magic do you think that will be enough of a stresser to bond them?

[Deleted User]

Too bad there is no humane live cargo shipping available to here. I’d love to meet Ziinia and Trouble.

[CottonTiger]

Hello again,
we have stopped the bathtub bonding, they both go at each charging, and circling, usually after one has started it by biting.
there is some fur flying but not alot. we had them now in a basket about 30 x 30 x 40? with see through top, we had 45 min in tub and 15 min in basket but Cotton doesn’t want to stay in with Tiger because he continues to nip, she has already a scratch near her that he did. He tries to bite and she can’t get away in the basket. So 15 mins was long enough. I will try again tomorrow to see if it gets better. where do we go after the basket? back in cage or back in bathtub?? This is going to be a long process I am afraid for being a previously bonded brother and sister pair.
thanks again.

[CottonTiger]

Oh! I forgot to say that we don’t let them fight long enough to know who goes away.

[Deleted User]

You might want to wear gloves so you can stop the nipping. You are right not to let it go on since both are involved in the aggression. Add a stressor like putting them on top of your washing machine during a spin cycle. Keep trying the box with the bunnies inside in different stress situations until you find one that works.

 

[Deleted User]

Push down their heads when they get nippy, and make a sound or say a particular word, some bunnies learn quickly to associate the sound/word with their head being pushed down and it can condition them to stop when you say that word.

[CottonTiger]

WE Tried the Basket bonding again this morning, it does seem to work better, although Tiger still nips occasionally.. Cotton even licked his ear a little, but mostly they are both stubern. and ignore each other. he puts his head down I have noticed sometimes to her if she doesn’t respond he nips her. She doesn’t try to go back after him in the basket, she tries to go away or get out, so he can’t nip. I feel so sorry for her because she is being forced to stay with him. But I guess that is what they need to come to an agreement. They were in the basket over an hour. he tried 4 0r 5 times to bite her. So i guess that isn’t to bad for an hour? hopefully it will get less with each session. How long can they stay in the basket at a time? they don’t go to the bathroom in it. And they won’t eat or drink in it. So i put them back in their cages to drink and use the litter box.
I hope this form of bonding works. Because it not I will become a “BASKET CASE ” 🙂
thanks again until next time.

[Deleted User]

You’re right, an hour in this basket is too long because they can’t do routines, cut the time in half. Keep up these sessions til the nipping ceases or lessens — until you see they start to mellow out.

[CottonTiger]

The bonding session went a little better today he still nips but on the bright she groomed him quite awhile. She definately seems to be afraid of him or cautious at any rate. She would groom him then stop and act as if she waited for a nip or response.Then continue grooming.
I think a few more days at this should be good?? When he doesn’t nip anymore, or hopefully grooms her back, then I assume we can put then then in semi neutral territory???? Or can we try in their room where they share at the moment separate cages????

thanks for all your advice.

[Deleted User]

If you set them loose in the room with the cages, close the cages because those will create a territorially charged spot. A neutral room would be more ideal, somewhere they haven’t been at all.

[CottonTiger]

Basket bonding is going well, This afternoon they got along pretty good, after awhile in the basket he nipped her in the side ,she didn’t jump and he started grooming her, he didn’t groom her long (a couple of min).but, he did, that what martters?
then this eveniing they were in the basket and no nipping took place and she groomed him almost the whole time.
Tommorrow i will try again to see if it was only a fluck or if they solved their problems. then if all goes well on the weekend I will try a neutral place?
The Basket has been the only thing that has worked so far. The car ride worked only when they were in the car. I wish I would have known this method before.
thanks

[Deleted User]

What matters is that you have a place that works, that you can always revert back to when things go wrong. Try the neutral place and if there is a problem = basket time. Your rabbits are grooming so it’s not that bad reallly. they just might have had a tiff and need to sort out a grudge from that.

[CottonTiger]

HI Petzy. Well it has been 2 days later using basket bonding! Umm well I can’t Tell anymore if it going good or not. At this morning session they groomed eiach other i thought i would try alittle bigger area 1 meter by 1 meter maybe a bit smaller(.Naturally a room where they have not been since they were babies the kitchen. But still not totally neutral) .Nope didn’t work they circled each other and i broke up fighting before it got started. then I put them directly back into the basket. they went at it again in the basket. I banged on the basket and they stopped. this went on for a couple of minuets. after a bit being quiet in the basket she groomed him. But when she stopped he got aggressive toward her. I am not sure iif he is biting or not .she doesn’t move so i can’t imagine he is hurting her. It is like he is saying ” Groom me Darn ya Now”” she does, groom him but when she is darn good and ready. They are sitting in there now and he is grooming her (roughly however) at the moment. OOps now she is grooming him again! With each session except the 1 they start out with him Nipping??? (being aggressive) then they eventually groom one another. I have no idea now how long I should keep this up. Until i assume there is no aggressiveness “at all” for several sessions?. Next i will go the parked car, that is the only neutral space left. I knoW there will be no problems in the car though. so when do i know i can püt them back in one cage CLEANED AND DESINFECTED NATURALLY SO NO SMELL IS APPARENT. They are switching cages every night. It is tough not getting discouraged. I know it will eventally work. But it is still hard..
thank you again

[Deleted User]

I say yes try the car. It seems they are stuck in a rut in the basket now. Don’t be discouraged because they will sort out the nipping on their own, but you need to be on your toes to watch if they go nuts on each other. Try a bigger area also but don’t let them fight, chasing is OK at this point. Can you see now if one of them takes off when things get aggressive?

[CottonTiger]

Helloo again Petzy,
Yesturdays basket bonding didn’t go so well they circled, (if you can imagine even in such a small area) and nipped each other. but there was a good note, she groomed him. No i still can’t tell if someone backs down when they were in the 80cm x 80cm area neither would back down. I will try the basket again today 2 more sessions. then i will try the car. Like i said before they will not fight in the car i am sure of it. If the weather stays nice i might try out side in their Run it is movable so i can move it to an area they don’r know. I don’t understand them. She was the dominant rabbir before her operation. and i think she doesn’t want to give it up . before; he was so scared of her, he would run away if she got aggressive ( harmones) now he won’t back down. she is alot calmer now after the operation. and in the basket mostly she excepts the nipping. One time it goes well the next time not so good. It has been over a month and very little progress is being made. Oh well!
I guess there is a good side to it at least they groom occationally one or the other.
I will let you know how it goes later. mabe the car will work.
Thank you –

[Deleted User]

I would try that outdoor run. Whenever I had a hard bond, I would move the rabbits around to any new set up/spot I could think of until I found one that worked.

Is it possible to make a short video of them during a session if you have someone to help you?

[CottonTiger]

We had 2 sucessful basket datess , sucesseful i am saying because after his brief bossiness( nipping?) they both sat the hole time face to face and grooming each other.. she groomed him mostly. but he did a little back. This mornigs session he groomed her more then she did him.. so maybe they are coming to an aggreement, I am still afriad to put them together in a bigger place.because they might start to fight, then that might set us back again!. when i put them in a different place i will try to get q video .of how they react. I will have to wait for some help.
Hopeful it is nice tommorrow and i can put them outside. They still seem to get along the best though in the basket..
Till next time.

[Deleted User]

Try the bigger place, the outdoor run, with you in it to limit their space — there should be no room for them to charge at each other. You could put one rabbit on your lap and sit with her like that in the outdoor run allowing the other to move around. Then switch. This would ease the transition into the new space.

[CottonTiger]

Hello again!
we are about to give up! and build the rabbit condo bigger to accomidate two separate sections.
I Tried the outside run today didn’t go well at all, at first they were preoccipied with the grass then they snooped alittle i had to always keep my hand between them and tell them to be good tails were not really up but I am cautous when one comes over to the other.i try to keep my hand there.then before i got a chance to put one on my lap they went at it. It happened too fast.They were in a grip i littlety had to phyically separte them . i picked up cotton. She wanted to go back after him but i calmed her down that is when i saw the torn ear. (Small rip) i put medicine and bandage on it.
Then i put them both back into the basket. no fighting . or aggression at all .even after they calmed down.they start grooming each other.. i don’t understand after he tore her ear. that they get on fine in the basket.But anywhere else they fight.
Yesturday evenings session in the basket didn’t go to well they were circling he was nipping. but yesturday mornings session went really good they took turns grooming each other.No Nipping .

WE were wondering if we should separate their cages putting them in separate rooms? if maybe being side by side is causing aggressions? they lay in their separate cages togther however they can’t touch. He is in the condo she is in a smaller cage but they switch cages every day. maybe i should makre the outside cage/run smaller?.But then there will be not much room when i am in it with them.
Truthfully i am beginning to think it is not going to work. and now we know letting them fight it out is not an option. I am half tempeted to leave them in the basket over night, but there is no room for food , litter box, or anything. But that seems to be the only place they get along. Of course i haven’t tried the car yet .Maybe i should put them in the car overnight and sleep in there with them? but at the moment it still cold at night for that.
I am almost ready for the BASKET myself.They are wearing me down. intsead of the other way around.

thanks again.

[Deleted User]

I absolutely agree about separating them to be caged in different rooms. When you are dealing with aggression, it is best to let the rabbits only meet/see/smell each other for the sessions. The side-by-side cages can make aggression escalate as they are constantly feeling to have to defend their personal space.

Let’s do something else as far as the sessions go; find a container slightly bigger than that basket, maybe a rubbermaid container or similar. You will have to keep them from jumping out though. Add a stressor to those sessions, like putting this container in your idling car. If we can get Cotton and Tiger upgraded to a larger space in baby steps it will work too. Anything and everything/everywhere you let them spend a session has got to be neutral. I know how discouraging it looks when you see them locked in a grip on each other with their teeth but bunnies like that have bonded too.

[CottonTiger]

Hello, thanks for the tip. i was wondering about the neutral place you said they need to be neutral place thats what i thought outside would be . since they are house rabbits they are never outside except in the summer for a couple of hours in their small hutch with small run. I only have the basement left and it is owned by Ferrets. and the car. and if these don’t work then we will probably give up. i do realize it will take more then just a few sittings.
so i will give these places a chance. How long should I leave them in the container, before i move to the next size. what if they continue to fight,nip or whatever? should i put them back in the smaller basket? and start over?

sorry for all the questions but I am totally at a loss.

[Deleted User]

The outdoor run could have worked, but you never know what works for which rabbits. Don’t worry about it, for now, while you are using ‘containers’ you can hold the session anywhere since the container is the neutral place. Do not allow them to nip or fight. You have to be faster than them: if they look at each other like they’re going to go for the fight again — stop them using your hands wearing gloves. Push down the instigator’s head briskly but of course not too hard either. It is quite possible that your first few sessions in the new larger container will be very hand-on, literally. You will get them to a point where they will mellow out in that container and then you can upgrade to another larger space or containment. Keep the session short, 25 min. is enough in the beginning.

[CottonTiger]

I put them in a 1 bunny size bigger box 3 bunnies could fit side by side. They went at it I had to put one out.even with my hands in the box to stop them but in the end they sat quietly next to each other. and when one looked evil i put their head down. said no! Will see how tonights sessions goes. But I don’t know if i am up to it. Saturday will be no sessions because of other appointements I hope that doesn’t haved a negative effect on these sessions. Will it be like starting over? I know these questions are hard to answer 1. you are not a rabbit 2. you do not know these rabbits.
I have been doing 2 or 3 ssessions a day. For about 6 weeks now. they are now on oppisite sides of the room, since we didn’t have another room to separate them in.
They are usually let out daily from the cages for individual playtime.( however i wonder if that should also be stopped). Now they must play with the dog. instead of each other.

I know it was a good decision to have her spayed , she” had” already at 1 year old a uterine infection. The Vet said Sometimes i wonder if it would have been better just to leave them togther without spaying for the “few years” she would have had. We have had in the last 15 years 4 bunnies, (before these). never did the bonding, all were in separate cages all female. One lived to be 13years old we called her our” Enegizer rabbit” she kept on going, and going …… the last one was 10 years. Had tumors in her lungs. the others probably died of uterine or health problems because they passed at 6 years old.
We had a vet that is a rabbit specialist, but would not spay cotton, because” there is no proof of Rabbits getting Uterine problems” Da!! we got another vet. However still not rabbit savvy, but had done several spay operations.
Sorry I got off of the Bonding theme.
Let you know how later how things are going.

Discouraged Bunny Mamma.

[Deleted User]

Yes, a wise rabbit would be great for advice duing bonding, LOL!

I would add a stuffed animal the size of a bunny or bigger in with the rabbits inside the larger box/cotainer. Skipping a few sessions won’t hurt your progress, it may even help to calm down everyone; your rabbits may need some time off too. No need to cancel their out-of-cage times either.

Can you add a motion stress to your next session, such as putting the box with the rabbits, plus stuffed animal, on top of your washing machine while it is spinning?

this tiger plushy helped me with one bond. you can put a stuffed animal like that in the rabbit’s cages, taking turns. One night leave it wiith Cotton and one night with Tiger. It will acquire both rabbits’ scents.

[Deleted User]

Posted By CottonTiger on 03/25/2010 12:52 AM
Now they must play with the dog. instead of each other.

Is this dog trustworthy with your rabbits? You may be able to add him into a session if he is.

[CottonTiger]

HI Ha!
that is the question . trustworhty? I think. she (the dog) has the hunt instinct but is not much bigger then the rabbits, she wouldn’t hurt them intentionally. as a matter of fact when cottons ear got tore yesterday the dog tried to lick it to make it better. And I had thought about using the dog but didn’t know how and now the way they are. the dog might get bit. I tried a smaller pen outside again today just big enough for 3 rabbits. same thing again as this morning in the box only this time i had to litterly hold them down so they wouldln’t attack the other. they didn’t try the whole time but it was a long 20 min session. And I ended it on a good note. I put them in the small basket to bring them in the house and they were fine. I don’t get it. When they have to sit next to each other they nip but no major scuffles. and groom each other, although this afternoon they were not in the basket long enough to see if they would groom each other.
Should I put the dog in the pen/box with them?

” No! nothing happened you can go back to your hay!”

[TARM]

I would just be concerned that the dog would get stimulated by the bunnies if they were to start fighting and jump in herself and hurt someone. What kind of dog is it?

[Deleted User]

If your dog may hurt them, it’s too risky. It sounded like your dog was rabbit–proof when you posted that the rabbits have playtime with your dog.
You could do a bathtub session, though, with the faucet running into the open drain as a noise stressor. You will have to keep trying different scenarios til you find one bigger than the basket that works. Use a plushy in the tub too. And treats like in the picture I posted.

[Deleted User]

I am reminded of Valmore and Clifford I bonded. They were 2 rabbits that initially got along but had a  falling out resulting in utter hatred for one another. They both wanted to be boss. They would lock their teeth onto one another and neither wanted to back down. It was extremely frustrating and I tried many setups with them unsuccessfully. They, too, would always try to get fighting in a large space. They fought in the bathtub.  I ended up holding many sessions in the bottom half of a hay-filled cat carrier. I would put that on my lap and watch TV at night stroking them and bouncing my leg. Eventually they stopped nipping and would just loaf there. Then I upgraded them to a big container, an old sandbox I had. I didn’t want to use the bathtub because they had fought in there many times and I wanted a setup that was mobile enough for me to move to different rooms. It is important that you make the sessions comfortable enough for yourself as they should get lengthier.

Here is how I used one of my dogs but he is constantly around rabbits so he is very much proofed.

 

 

This was them in the sandbox. They quickly learnt that I was not going to allow them to jump out. Those sessions could last for hours and eventually wore them out to start bonding.

[CottonTiger]

Thank you for the video however i can.t view it . it says that it was privit and i have to ask you for exceptance????? i have never had that before . anyway to answer your question about the dog , she would run if the started fighting. but you are right it is too risky , for both the rabbits and the dog. She is a bischon frise /chihauhua mix???? she weighs 5 Kilos (10 pounds?) so she is a bit bigger then the rabbits,when they are out they have a cardboard castle to play in , and the dog spends the time in there with them. and she is young 1 1/2 yrs old , and is learning she must not chase the rabbits . but sometimes the bunnies will come and stand infront of her and do a binky, sometimes i think just to get her to chase them.

We tried the 3 bunny sized box again tonight, and there was nothing , of course i petted them the whole time. she even groomed him a little. Then tried to push her heaad under his. i thought it looked like he might try to nip. and put my hand in the way.but nothing happened. They do not like my gloved hand there though they try to push it away.
Are the rabbits in the pictures Valmore and Cliford? they look like very frisky happy rabbits. beautiful. bunnies.
Till next time.

[Deleted User]

try the video again.

[Deleted User]

be patient. your rabbits will come around!

[CottonTiger]

HELLO again.
i did another bonding session one yesterday morning., then since i was gone . one this evening. yesterdays bonding session was ok. not much aggression.I think he tried to nip her. she groomed him, but he won’t groom her. Today the session was better they sat cheek to cheek, they would try to push their heads under each other (to be groomed i guess) Cotton is a the one doing the gromming.then she puts her head down. he will lay with his head over hers but refuses to groom her. So maybe we are making some progress, i guess i can try another size bigger box? and increase the time they are together or is it pushing it alittle? they do seem to be chilling though. athought i will see how tomorrows session goes.

have a nice eveineng till next time

[CottonTiger]

Yipee yeh! this mornings session, went real well after a small circling action which i broke up. he growled at her i banged on the lid, saying don’t bite, then when she didn’t groom him , after a bit he started grooming her. Yeh! it is apparent that they still have some differences. but he seemed to groom her more this morning then she did him.. after watching closely, i think he is pushing her face an not nipping.but sometimes it is hard to tell. since she isn’t attacking back when he does it, it must be a good sign. it is soo sweet to see them grooming each other.

But i think we still have a long process in front of us.
till next time.

[Deleted User]

hi again, I am catching up now.
What type of box are you using right now, how big and where? Are you just sitting with them in the box without stressors? If so, you may want to try a larger enclosure, but one where you have access to intervene readily. Refresh my memory, please, how did these two behave in the bathtub, did you ever try that? It may be a good space now, as you can resort to using water noise as a stressor if they act up. You would just run water beside the bunnies into your open drain, or hold the shower head close to the drain and make a scary noise for them that way. The rabbits are not suposed to get wet, unless there is a bad fight.

[CottonTiger]

yeh, we started out in the bathtub and they fought everytime so I started with the 30cm x30cm box that you said, only it was a basket. now they are in a 60cm x44cm basket just big enough for 3 bunnies. so there is still room. I have no stressor only they sit in the front room. with me either on my lap or on the chair beside me. we tried the water thing in the bathtub did not change a thing. Iam getting ready to move them to a biigger box tonight to see what happens. one just big enough for 4 bunnies. siide by side. will probably need the gloves again, haven’t needed them the last few sessionss only had to shake the box or bang on the lid to get them to stop the aggressions.

so i wiil let you know whatr happens

[Deleted User]

Do you have someone that can help you with a car ride? You could have both rabbits loose with you on the backseat while someone else does the driving, or you could just sit in the backseat with the car parked but idling. Seems Cotton and Tiger can be checked with the ‘earthquake’ method, being shaken up etc.

[CottonTiger]

Well! Petzy they seem to get along in the smaller confinement. we had them in a box, pretty big, again in the front room. and they circled and tried to fight we drug the box and moved it she jumped out and ran to her cage. So we put them back in the smaller box and they get on together fine, she groomed him just a bit. why do they circle and look like they will fight in the bigger area , I don’t understand… I can only do 30 minute or so sessions in the small confinement, if i could use the bigger one i could put a litter box( neutral) in so they can do their thing during the bonding. and have them toghether longer?
i DON,T WANT TO USE THE BATH TUB IT IS ALOT BIGGER THEN THE BOX . and they are sometimes hard to control. when they start being aggressive.
Sometimes I feel like we are starting over, if they do this everytime we move them to a bigger area.
I don’t know.
I think we are making progress but i am getting tired. Patience is wearing thin. “I know” you said to be patient..
till next time-

[Deleted User]

Monkeybun on here was in a similar situation, where her two would only get along in a very confined space. It is like they have an understanding in that basket, but outside of it they feel the need to challenge each other. This is because they have not sorted out who is in charge.
Some bonding rabbits only bond by being worn out, but you will need a way to stop their fighting at any given time to do this.

Whenever I was in a bonding scenario where I couldn’t know which way a session would go, I would keep a pitcher of room temperature water within my reach so that if things got out of control I would dump that on the aggressing bunny’s flank to break it up. I found it gave me some security knowing that I could stop them even if they were looking for blood. A measured, well-placed and unexpected splash of water is often the only thing that works on rabbits that are in fighting mode. Along those lines, you could hold a session in your bathtub with 2 cm of water at the bottom to give them a set of soggy feet. It has prevented some of my rabbits from going at each other that previously would fight in the bathtub. It generally gets them grooming themselves or just makes them motionless. A session like this should not exceed ten minutes. Next session you can use less water at the bottom until you get them to stay in a dry bathtub without fighting. Most rabbits do learn the association of running faucet and soggy feet.  If you do use water in any setup, your rabbits may need blow-drying afterwards which can also serve as a stressor between them. You could have them in a box and blowdry at their feet on low setting. If you have wet bunnies and can’t blowdry them, make sure to set them up very cozy in a draft-free area after the session.

In the beginning, the sessions in a bigger place will be highly volatile and therefore you should keep these extremely short. You could set the basket with the two bunnies down in a larger space and let them hop out one after the other. Wear gloves and have measures handy to stop an attack. You might want to hold one rabbit in the larger and have the other one loose and then switch. You would be a shield.

Or, try the car ride.

 

[CottonTiger]

Well it is the 2nd day in the bigger box,
she is grooming him and he groomed her just short. When i put them in the box they did their typical circle thing and he growled and stomped. and went to their corners.
when they looked like they might get aggressive i jiggled the box as if they were on a washmachine. Then they snuggle thats when the grooming statred.
I wanted to make the session a bit longer so i got a litter box and put in the corner there was no territorial disagreements over the litter box and they even ate ther favorite dryed apple chips and dryed dandlelion greens together, no aggressions. He pushes behind her or under her and puts his head down. It is funny they almost act like before the bond was broken however i know when i put them again in a bigger area they will show aggressions again. Although i am suprised at how well it went in this bigger box.
I Still do not know who is becoming the boss when he puts his head down she grooms. so maybe he is? she tries pushing her head under him but then gives in and grooms him. they have been in the box now for about 1 1/2 hrs no aggressions. only pushing for kisses( and there has been no stressor other then the box itself).They even bunny flopped together.
Iin all the sessions til now if he nipped her, she would go back at him , but she wouldn’t start it. he has not nipped her today. Maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Ohh! he is grooming her.
I am thinking about getting a playpen to put them in as a final step for bonding? Because I am running out of boxes Can I put it in the room that they share together? or in the frontroom? It is Semi neutral, the dogs also use the room. This is where I have been holding the sessions In The boxes.
well it time to put them back in there cages for awhile. i wil see what will happen at the next session.
till next time.

[Deleted User]

I would use the frontroom and be careful when taking the sessions to the playpen; in the beginning, try holding one rabbit on your lap while you are sitting in the pen and have the other bun explore around you, then switch. At some point you will want to let them both loose in the playpen together but sit in there with them. Wear gloves and watch their dynamics unfold. Chasing and nipping at fur is OK, it has to happen, but watch for escalating aggression. If they get upset with each other, grab them both, put them on your lap and stroke hard to end on a good note.

[CottonTiger]

We had another bunny date in the big box. Everything went well and there were no problems. They were together for about 2 hours with litter box and hay.

Then we decided to put them in the pen, which is standing in their room. We put blankets on the sides, so they can’t see where they are. But that didn’t work for too long, because Tiger jumped out before we had the top on. At first they seemed to start circling, but we shook a bottle with pennies in it and they stopped. Now after 45 min. they are doing very good. There are no agressions or signs of agressions and they are even grooming each other, flopping over and eating together out of one bowl. This was not possibe before without fighting. They are behaving as if they were never apart from each other. We have decided to leave them in the pen over night, if nothing happens in the mean time, and see how they are tomorrow. Since they are in my/their room I will hear if anyhting happens.

I finally have some pictures and a video of the two in their pen. Cotton (the black and white one) is shoving her head under his tummy like she has been doing the last few dates.

My mother (the one who has been writing the most posts and doing lots of the bunny dates) and I are very optimistic that the night will go well!

[Deleted User]

Can’t wait to see the video! Great work, CottonTiger
You are very creative, to put the blankets along the sides of the pen = great idea. I like your setup for this bonding.
Sending calm vibes for a successful overnight session!

[CottonTiger]

We just had a brief fight and don’t know how it happened, but we broke it up right away. Now they are back to laying beside each other again. Now we are not sure, if we should keep them in there over night anymore. At the moment we think it’s best to just put them back in seperate cages.

It does seem that they have overcome their difficulties, but still haven’t decided who is boss.

Still trying to upload the video…….

[Deleted User]

What was the fight like? Describe. What did it take to break it up?

[CottonTiger]

There was a lot of furr flying. It was actually a real fight. Right before we could seperate them, Tiger was on his side and kicking. Cotton also. I checked them afterward, and there are no injuries. It was only a few seconds, but we had to physically part them. I took Cotton while my mother took Tiger and they were still trying to go at each other.

As soon as we had them calmed down, Tiger jumped over her and then Cotton seemed to try to ride him. At that point he started circling but we broke it up. Well, at least the were peaceful for a few hours.

 

[Deleted User]

Too early for the overnight. It often takes two attempts at moving them in together, no worries, next time might just be a charm! Separate them at bed time.

[CottonTiger]

Thanks for all the help!

[CottonTiger]

Good morning,

we  tried the pen this time in the frontroom same set up, with blankets. i planned to leave them all day until my daughter comes home. then we move the pen to her room.

The  the first 30 min or so session did not go as good this morning. There was alot of aggressions.

Then they mostly lay next to each, eating together, and grooming each other.   I watched them and it appears things are Ok unless cotton tries to ride Tiger, He would mostly try to get away, but if she was insistant he would go back after her, but now after  almost 2 hrs in the pen. They just push each other for kisses, and grooming. and breif episodes of chasing, and circling, I stop the circling, again He mostly tries to get away.  he hides in the litter box because she continually tries to ride his head, I try to stop that, I am afraid he will bite her parts.

It is a complete turn around from the other days she is being the aggressive one, only by trying to ride him. He seems to have mellowed some. Like i said mostly tries to get away from her advances. And he no longer nips. They look like they are getting along .but i still don’t trust them to leave the side of the pen.

I wonder how it will go after we have them finally in the same cage. if they will be able to have playtime together, out of the cage, or pen  they had normally have run of the whole house. I am still not sure when to try and introduce them back their condo.

till next time,

 

 

 

 

 

[Deleted User]

You are right to stay with them, do not leave them unattended at this still volatile stage. It is too early to house them together, but keep up the sessions as much as you can. I would also now add a stuffed animal to them for Cotton to mount. Leave it overnight with Toger so it will have his scent on it. Sometimes a stuffed toy like that can take the edge off.
Is the condo you are planning to move them in together neutral? Whose was it before?
Is Cotton’s mounting the only aggression for now?

[CottonTiger]

Hello!
I was able to grab a quick bite to eat or run quickly to the bathroom, with no episodes.

They have been in the pen since i first wrote, this morning, it is now evening 6:30 and except for the first 30 min or so. there has been no other episodes. The pen has been in the front room, I don’t know if it being in their room will change things.

They have been grooming each other the whole time and THE ONLY AGGRESSIONS ARE COTTON riding him, she rides his head , he lets her, when he has had enough, or if I don’t stop it, he will run away and hide in the litter box so she can’t reach him. Since he is not biting I try to let her ride for a few seconds. Then push her away. They still push each other trying to get kisses, but no biting, or aggressions. there are no territorial problems with the litter box. It was also switched between the 2 cages.
“She” has even been doing some Binkies in the pen.
The condo that we want to put them in was both of theirs, before the broken bond. now they have been changing cages every night, She also has time in the condo every other night, and day.
We thought we should wash everything in the condo with Vinegar? To eliminate ones smells.
But we are concerned about the playtime they both have. they used to run all over the whole house, but especially in their room and hallway. I am worried about Territorial fights. Even if they do OK in the condo.
I don’t know if we should try an all night in the pen either. I feel like since they have done so well now for over 10 hours, it would still go overnight.
But with all the previous problems, I makes us skeptical.
I think it is apparent though That “She” is the boss again. And that” I” am the boss of them. because when I stand and grab the cloves they stop and look innocent like. “I am not doing anything”.

We used the stunt double before too, and it didn’t effect anything, but maybe now it will! If it is even needed.

[Deleted User]

I wouldn’t worry about the free-range area, it should be fine at this point. The condo however I would not use until the two buns have cemented their bond in another area first. I say this because Cotton has had the condo to herself sometimes. She is the boss, so she may freak out at Tiger in the condo, even after you wash it. Let the condo stand empty for a month while they cement their bond in the pen. It all sounds good, the fact that Tiger takes off when he has had enough of her mounting is very good. You might try the overnight if you are a light sleeper that way you will wake up iif they have a serious dispute.

[Monkeybun]

Petzy, reading this and thinking of M&M, I’m wondering if I should do an overnight with them. They’re behaving quite well, except that Moose stole Monkey’s treat last night which made her cranky… He doesn’t chase her much anymore, and Monkey got close enough to groom him last night before scampering off. I’d of course be sleeping next to the pen with them

[Deleted User]

Monkey, you won’t get any farther with them than where you are unless you cement their bond by housing together. Once bonding rabbits share a defined living space they become family. If they don’t turn on each other any longer, and it sounds like they are just thriving together, it is time for the 24 hr session. If it goes well, move them in together.

[Monkeybun]

Sounds good.. will wait til saturday, as I pack hay for the rescue saturday morning and I don’t want to leave the hubby alone with 2 freshly room-mated buns

[CottonTiger]

YES!!!! We have a breakthrough!!!!!!

Tiger and Cotton spent the night in the pen in their room. They were not soo happy about being confined to the pen, as they knew where they were. We had to weigh down the pen with bricks, to keep them from trying to get out. After moving them into the room, they still behaved as before in the front room, no change.

The night went very well, without any problems. Early this morning, as Cotton was gettting restless in the pen, she started riding him again. Tiger just kept running from her and they were quickly running in circles, but no fighting or aggression. I got up and made them stop as quick as possible.

As soon as it was light outside, it was very hard to keep them in the pen. So we decided to try something risky and put them in their condo. We cleand it with vinegar und put in new bedding. Then we fastened a new board, so they would have more room to lay down in. We made this condo ourselves, while they were still small. That was not that good of an idea, because they got a lot bigger than we expected them to. Especially him. He is the first male we have had and he is huge! He can no longer lay outstretched on the top or middle platform. He can lay down, but not to his full length. Who would have thought, he could get so long. He is about 22 inches (55cm), when he lays all stretched out. Is that normal for a dwarf rabbit?

The condo is 120 x 80 x 40 cm and the two platforms are 40 x 40 cm. On top they have another small extension of 40 cm x 20 cm (with a hole to get up the steps). It’s a bit small, but they have time to run around the whole house daily.

My mother had Cotton and I had Tiger when we put them in the condo. We expected a fight or some sort of scuffle, but nothing happened. They started smelling the new platform (board) and then went to their normal snuggle corner. There have been no incidents, no fighting, no pushing, no nothing, except snuggling and grooming.

Their bond seems to be reestablished. We hope that the day goes as it has started. Now are next challenge will be the first run of the house together. We hope this goes okay too but are optimisitic.

The whole bonding process took us about 5 weeks, which seemed a lot longer.

But we finally have two happy bunnies again. Tiger (orange) was always the type to get a little depressed, when he was alone while I am gone for the weekend even though my mother was always there to take care of them.

 

Thanks for the help and have a happy bunny day!

*happy bunny parents*

PS: I couldn’t upload the video.

 

I have a very strange bonding story, which I would like to share.

We got Tiger and Cotton from a breeder. The woman had two female bunnies (Tiger and Cottons Mommy and one other) in one pen (they were not sisters). Both bunnies had a litter of babies at the same time, in the same nest and would share the nursing of all babies. Tiger was very smart and decided to drink milk from both mommies, so he had always been the biggest of his litter. We thought this was so amazing, that two unaltered females, even with babies, got along so well. At no point did the breeder have to seperate the mothers. This shows us, that in some very rare occasions even females can bind a friendship.

 

 

[CottonTiger]

Hello again.
It is now 8:00 in the evening here. and Cotton and tiger have been together in their condo for over 12 hrs. No problems
only Cotton riding tiger (once in awhile) I guess just reminding him she is boss. And he runs away when he has has enough, They even had free run of their room, all went well, They played together, in their cardboard castle.
Only after being put back in the condo something strange, happened and I don’t know if that is a good or a bad sign and if they should still be watched over night. He started riding her, she let him, then after a few seconds I broke it up. Other then that they still groom and lie beside each other, eat together etc. Does that mean that the dominant rabbit has not been 100 percent established??? And do I need to be concerned?  I hope we haven’t jumped for joy too soon!!

Thank you again. for everything.

[Deleted User]

A set of very humpy bunnies you have! Well, if the humping results in either bun taking off, it’s fine. They will sort it out. Some people believe strongly that even altered rabbits mount each other more in the spring time. Observe them but don’t separate unless there is real aggression; remember, though, that even a fur tuft getting ripped out during mounting is still acceptable.

[jerseygirl]

Gosh, that other story with the 2 mothers is something!! Wouldn’t have expected that. I wonder sometimes if domestication plus these rabbits having less survival stress results in situations like that? Like, in the wild Does are particulary aggressive and competative when it comes to ensure their young survive. When they are in a home where they don’t have to compete for shelter or food, I wonder if they accept each others litters more readily?… Anyway, going off topic a bit.

Happy to hear your 2 have finally made up!

[TARM]

Digger mounts Marshmallow all the time. And she just lets him. Which is strange because she seems to be dominant in everything…first to eat, first to get pets…but she lets him hump. It’s funny too because she’s bigger than he is…lol

[Author]

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