Need opinions on how to help Mae and update

[BunnyLiz]

First off Mae is doing wonderful and I love her so so much.  I think she has improved some just in the short time that she has been here, because the rescue could only give her so much attention because they have many other rabbits.  Now she will approach me without to much hesitating and give me some nose bumps, and then I get to pet her nose.  Ive seen a few zooms recently, and mini binkies, which from my understanding was not all that common for her before.  She flops in her cage all the time and I hardly see a loaf anymore, she has started to enjoy her willow more and discovered what phonebooks are for lol.  She gets out of her cage whenever im home as long as its not Hammer and Lucy time, and gets every night out of the cage too.  My cat and her are BFFs now too, they are just lazy together all the time.  Ive never even had to yell at her once, thats how well behaved she is.  So she is doing great, and Im so extremely happy that I found her.  I’ll admit though that I still slip and call her Rose almost daily.  That was real hard at first, but I do it less now.  And I think I might have finally found a difference in them, Mae’s eyelashes are shorter then Rose’s were.

Second, just so everyone who doesnt know can catch up- Mae was from a meat rabbit business and had a bunch of litters, was abused, and not taken care of.  The rescue says she is definitely one of the worst cases of neglect and abuse they have seen personally, so she was obviously very tramatized and still is.  She has been known to scream, bolt blindly into walls and basically just flip out when scared or something triggers her memory.  Luckly I havent had to deal with any really bad flip outs yet, just a few smaller ones.  Anyway, to the point.  Mae is really only completely comfortable with me, or sometimes my mom, petting her.  She is most comfortable with pets only on the forehead, not on her cheeks.  But she will let me pet her back after I pet her forehead for a few minutes, sometimes she will get a nervous jump the first time I touch her back but only runs 20% of the time.  If I can pet her back for a few I can sometimes pet her sides, she will either have a little nervous jump and stay or run.  So my question is should I try to pet her like this in the hopes that eventually she wont connect it with bad things all the time and get used to it?  Or should I only go by what she is 100% comfortable with so she has no fear of my hand at all?  This isnt something she will just get over because this is how it was with the rescue and foster too.  So I quess this is for people with rescue experience, to teach her its okay or to go by what she feels is safe?  Thought Id get some opinions, its been bugging me for awhile.

Sorry I think I rambled a bit, Ill make it up with a picture!

Added-  I don’t think this is a case were she doesnt enjoy being pet, she loves it.  Ive sat and petted her forehead for an hour before.  And I think she does enjoy being pet on her back and sides, it just still scares her occassionally and she reactly very quickly on instinct.

[Monkeybun]

I’d keep to petting her head for now, til she relaxes more, if she will. Poor thing. *snuggles*

[MimzMum]

All I can say is, definitely keep trying, however long it takes and let Mae give you clues as to what she will and won’t allow. I have slacked off in trying to get Fiver more used to letting me pet/brush/touch him thinking I was pushing him too hard and we’ve actually regressed. He is very reserved again now and hardly lets me touch him at all.
Consistency is key. Rabbits thrive on routine and any deviation from it will tend to set off their warning systems. She obviously sees you as someone who is working hard to bring her back into a loving and warm relationship with humans, or perhaps it is just something she’s never known at all and it’s all quite new to her. Either way, I think you’re doing wonderfully!

[Sarita]

I agree that consistency is going to be key. Also keeping her in a routine as well so that she knows what to expect and hopefully that will build trust. I imagine a change in routine is going to make her anxious.

Poor Mae – I’m glad she is finally in a loving home.

[BunnyLiz]

So by consistency you mean keep trying right? She does have a routine that I try to stick too, and if I can’t be there I get someone else to come and at least feed everyone on time. I don’t think she will settle in anymore, Monkey, she is comfortable its just certain things have been ingrained in her now. Like last night she had a episode when my cat (who she loves) jumped over the baby gate into my room and it scared her so she flipped a bit.

I just thought of this, but I do need to get her to a point where its okay to pet her sides and back (but never her neck!) because everyone needs to be able to pick up their buns in an emergency. The rescue told me she hated being picked up and its a real task, so I did pick her up just so I knew what would happen and how to deal with it. Picking her up is scary to be honest, she has pure fear and it does scare me to think of why she is that way. Its not completely necessary to be able t pet her to pick her up though, I can do it itll just take longer.

[Sarita]

Picking up large rabbits is quite a task! If you aren’t confident they surely must know it. I honestly think I would not try to pick her up. What I would do in an emergency is to bring the carrier as close to her as possible and scoop her up and sit her in there.

I think yes, just keep trying and pet her in the way you know she feels comfortable.

Sometimes too these red eyed whites seem to have more trouble focusing and they sometimes scan so I imagine she would be startled with the cat jumping over the gate. She may never get used to that.

I think you are right, these fears may be ingrained so it’s good you are keeping her routine as consistent as possible. I imagine even the routine will take awhile for her to feel comfortable with. I imagine too it’s just going to take quite a while for her to feel comfortable. She’s in good hands with you – you understand why she is fearful and that she is. And you accept her for all of that :~)

[RabbitPam]

I have had no improvement with Sammy when it comes to being picked up, and she has never been mishandled. I almost think it’s a fear of heights.
Anyway, if you continue to try petting her more, you can start with the pets she does like and then move along gradually. Frankly, when I get to Sammy’s sides, she runs away. I also wonder if she could be ticklish! Anyway, Sarita is right about the need to pick up Mae. You can just herd her into her travel box from her cage or in a room you close up if she’s out. If she’s unable to get up or walk in an emergency, you’ll be able to pick her up gently anyway.

She is absolutely adorable, BTW. Thanks for the pix.

[MimzMum]

Fiver is the same way, Pam. You can rub his nose all you like and only now have I gotten him tot he point where he’ll let me rub his ears (little boys picked him up by them obviously) but once I run a hand down his flank he’s off like a shot and grunting and lunging. Since bunnies are so fast, (and slippery…remember the childhood song-“Oh I wish I were a little bar of soap”?) anyone who wants to get hold of them in a pet store or breeder situation would have to grab and squeeze (if one wasn’t well-versed in how to calmly lift a bunny) so I can imagine even in a situation without abuse, there’s been some grabbing done to poor Sammykins. To most bunnies I would guess.
Consistency just means doing the same thing routinely, Liz, to be very basic about it. Keep those schedules and routines for Mae. If at all possible, try to be the one who handles her/feeds her/cares for her. I know it’s not possible to be there all the time and you want her familiar with other family members so she doesn’t feel apprehensive about them in any way (where’s mom?? who’s this person??) but the more that every day is the same, the less scary it will be for her. And of course, the better a bunny slave you will be when she gets to diva stage.
And yes, she is lovely! What I wold give for my bunnies to pose so nicely! ^_^

I have to find that cartoon that I think Markus posted a while back with the 50’s looking family surrounding the bunny and talking about how sweet he is and when can they hold him and the thoughts going through his head are all, “Why are they showing me their teeth? Why haven’t they eaten me yet??” It’s a rather humorous look at what “we” think and what “they” think.

[KatnipCrzy]

Schroeder was a bit hard to win over- but when we let him out we would have a little bowl of chopped up Craisins that he had to jump onto the couch to beg for them- and we would hand feed them to him.  He learned he could leave whenever he wanted- and that really helped build trust between us.  He now stays up on the couch longer and longer and even after the treats are gone- he enjoys the affections now too.  It was a very slow process to get him to this point.

[Sage Cat]

After having Kay & Winston for 1 year and 9 months – Winston is just now letting me and J pet him more than just a few head pets. He is now asking for pets too!
Yesterday, for the first time, I spent several minutes petting Kay with both hands – one on ether side of her – she was totally relaxed.

Keep trying. You are doing a great job!

[Desma]

I am very happy that you are taking good care of dear sweet Mae. The love you consistantly give her will in time help her overcome her fears. I would never want to hear what it is like to hear a rabbit scream. Pretty soon in time, I am sure you will get her hooked to be tranced!

[Lara]

Aw… I have nothing helpful to add, I just want to give sweet Mae some love via the internet. She’s such a love, and it breaks my heart that she was ever treated with anything less than complete care and gentleness. I know that she is happy to finally have a home with you to love her and make her feel safe.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I think she has improved some just in the short time that she has been here, because the rescue could only give her so much attention because they have many other rabbits.

It’s super hard for shelters to give attention -your so right

My cat and her are BFFs now too, they are just lazy together all the time.

hehehe great match

I’ll admit though that I still slip and call her Rose almost daily.

I can see why *HUGS*

She has been known to scream, bolt blindly into walls and basically just flip out when scared or something triggers her memory.

Rupert isn’t that bad-but close (minus the screaming) he has an unknown past but probably nowhere near as bad as Mae. Honestly it’s just taken time-he’s come SO FAR since brinign him home. The first time I saw him in person was at the pet expo, and he was hiding in the corner of the cage-terrified. He gets startled stil but quickly recovers. Lots of time in a safe comfortable environment will really help.
Also you’ll want to completely AVOID anything like spray bottles, penny pop cans etc(ie. pp’s=postive punishments or corrections)

Or should I only go by what she is 100% comfortable with so she has no fear of my hand at all? This isnt something she will just get over because this is how it was with the rescue and foster too. So I quess this is for people with rescue experience, to teach her its okay or to go by what she feels is safe? Thought Id get some opinions, its been bugging me for awhile.

What I’ve always done is sitting on the ground and allowing bonding time (patience!!) and handling them super confidently-only pick her up if you feel confident-you’ll pass on that info if you aren’t! Hold confident, hold nicely and put down gently-then give treats. Once you’ve handled them safely many times they just get used to it. I woudn’t say any of mine like being picked up-but I have no prob picking any up-and NONE but Kahlua came used to be picked up. They are all very comfy being toted around

It takes time, be consistent and proper and good-she’ll trust you soon enough

So by consistency you mean keep trying right?

Honestly I know buns are prey animals and don’t like being picked up normally but dogs don’t like heeling naturally either right? sooo work on it, do it a lot and do it nicely and with lots of positive reinforcement and things will go good. I don’t pick mine up gratuitiously but they are all comfy with it now

Picking her up is scary to be honest, she has pure fear and it does scare me to think of why she is that way.

Towel. Put a towel over her, wrap her up and then pick her up. You need to be able to restrict kicking or upset behavior-and eventually your bun should not be doing that anyways. But in the meantime for learning-you can’t have the bun flailing around and hurting you and possibly getting dropped So a towel could certainly help you hold her

[Lintini]

I don’t have anything helpful to add, but she is a gorgeous bunny

[Beka27]

I was also thinking that she probably has very bad associations with her back being touched and then being snatched up and carried here or there. I would do what she is comfortable with. It’s so important now that she only associate you with GOOD THINGS!

[Elrohwen]

Poor Mae. She’s so lucky to have a good home with you!

Have you ever tried clicker training? I’ve started using it with Otto lately and it’s given him a lot of confidence (he’s never been the bravest of bunnies, though he doesn’t flip out like Mae either). Originally I could only touch his foot for a second before he ran off to the other side of the room and glared at me, even though I tried to give him treats and make it a good experience. Now I can wrap two fingers around each foot for at least 5 seconds and he doesn’t mind at all; just hangs around waiting for clicks and treats. The clicker really gives him motivation to continue letting me do whatever I’m doing in a way that just giving him treats didn’t.

I found it worked best to clicker train a silly trick or two until I knew he really understood the clicker, and then I started moving on to things that were scary for him. I think it could really help with Mae and getting her comfortable with being touched on her body and maybe even being picked up some day (at least picked up enough to quickly get her into a carrier or something).

[BunnyLiz]

GRR lost my post! much shorter version:
Thanks everyone for your post and kind words.
Mimz- she doesnt mind strangers so much now as long as they respect her personal space and rules. Thankfully the rescue worked on that, as she didnt trust any humans. Once she got comfortable with the rescue people they had everyone that visited and everyone at adoption events interact with her regardless if they were interested in her or not. So she learned that cruel humans were the exception and not the given she thought it was.

KK- I have a spray bottle but its got Lucy’s name on it. Thanks for your post, very helpful

Beka- Its possible she thinks back= picked up(which leds to god knows what). But she was picked up by the skin on her neck (we assume, we can only guess at her story by her actions), so I have no hope of ever being able to pet around her ears or neck.

Elrohwen- Awesome idea! I hadnt thought about that, even though Id heard it can really give a bun confidence. Mae is really food driven too so this could really work. Thank you thank you thank you! Im off to check my cards balance and then a stop at the BB store!

[Elrohwen]

BunnyLiz, I’m so glad you like the idea! http://www.clickerbunny.com is also fantastic (it kind of goes with the Clicking with your Bunny book). I’ve turned Otto into a clicker monster now. Whenever I try to stop his training sessions, he just sits in front of me, sitting up, spinning around, anything to keep training. Lol. And he’s a far more confident bunny than he used to be when I touch his feet or put both hands on him at once (which previously sent him running for the hills). I hope it works for Mae! Just remember to be really patient with it – it took Otto at least a few weeks of almost daily training to really understand it (less than 5 minutes per day). But I know you’re so patient with her anyway 🙂

Heck, maybe you can even train Lucy to do a trick or two. Sometimes the naughtiest animals are the fastest learners. 😉

[BunnyLiz]

Yay it shipped already! Less then an hour after my order too, thanks BB!
Thanks for the site as well, Ill definitely read that so when I get my book and clicker ill know something already and be able to start sooner. Hmm, Lucy.. only if she is in the mood for a treat that day. She doesnt always want a stupid treat, has to complicate everything.

[BinkyBunny]

Posted By BunnyLiz on 11/06/2009 06:39 PM
Yay it shipped already! Less then an hour after my order too, thanks BB!

 

Oh…funny. I didn’t realize that was your order. The last one of the day. We had actually finished up and closed everything, and then your order came in, and I thought if we hurry, we could get  it done today as Fedex won’t ship out on the weekend.  

As far as helping your bunny trust and get used to more touch etc: You’ve received great advice 

I think the clicker training is also a great idea! Keep us updated with your progress. 

I have always been drawn to bunnies with behavior challenges.  Some can change very quickly, while other can take a very long time, but I have definitely found consistent gentle patience seems to really help turn things around.   Jack made a turnaround in a just a few months times, while Rucy took over a year.    And Vivian, who had a head start of love and affection at SaveABunny , where I adopted her, has learned to not stress about her backside being pet now.  She used to whip around to give the stink eye, and a possible nip or  run away.  But now she doesn’t mind at all, so I’d say it took her about 5 – 6 months, since I adopted her,  to get to this point to trust me fully.   I would just pet her and get her used to affection she felt safe with which was her head and upper spine/back for the first month or so.  

Then when she began to fully relax, I began to just slowly progress to her side or farther down her back about 1 out of 10 pets, and each time I would touch the her side or lower back, I would quickly get back to what she was comfortable with – she would progress from flinching to just breathing harder from being anxious about going to her sides or lower back.  Then she became less reactive, but I would just watch her breathing to figure out if she was getting too anxious, and would go back to what she was comfortable with, and then try again, and over time her breathing and reaction became more and more relaxed.    

Now she’s fine with me petting her fully, but I still have to always start with her head or shoulders first and then pet.  And help ANYONE who doesn’t know to do this because she can still turn on the divatude if she wants. (many people who aren’t comfortable with rabbits seem to want to pet the back first  - maybe because they mistakenly think it’s safer because it’s farther away from the teeth?)

But at the same time, Vivian  is one of the most interactive extroverted bunnies I have ever had.  She used to once scare people off at the shelter, and now she runs to greet me everyday when I enter the bunny room.  My understanding is she used to scare volunteers with her threatening behavior at approaches, but today, she has no problem with me reaching toward her.  She either comes right up to get the pets she knows  are coming or she starts to settle in right  where she is knowing affection is coming. 

I think one of the most rewarding things is seeing a bunny, who has dealt with bad human behavior, turn around with loving human behavior. 

it’s really a wonderful rewarding gift to for both the Bunny AND the human.  Your bunny  is very lucky to have you!

[Author]

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