need help with new male bunny

[matt]

I recently took in a male bunny from someone moving across the country.  Fozzie is an 11 month old lop and neutered (at least that’s what I was told).  I took him in to be a companion to my female 3-year old hotot bunny (she’s been spayed) named Panda.  They are both staying in the same room but in separate cages.  They are not aggressive toward each other but he constantly chases her (in circles around a box often) and she constantly runs away.  She’ll stop and then he’ll come running after her and then she’ll run again… and on and on.  On the few occassions where she’s stopped for awhile, he’ll place his head on her head or he’ll try to mount her and then she’ll run away.  Well, since he’s been here (2.5 weeks), he’s pooped every day all over the carpet (almost as soon as we let him out) and his pee has smelled so bad.  And until a few days ago we thought he was peeing only in his litterbox but a few days ago we’ve been finding a collection of droplets of his pee in various parts of the room (and we think that’s why it’s smelled so bad… we were just completely missing other times where he’s peed).

He’s a great bunny and he’s very friendly… but I have no idea what to do.  The smell from his pee is driving me crazy.  I thought the pooping would die down with time… I was assuming it was because our other bunny’s scent was around the apartment.  But we cleaned thoroughly on one weekend (trying to descent the place) and yet his massive pooping all over the apartment has continued.  Is this normal for a neutered bunny?  I think my other bunny (Panda) is very slowly warming up to him (Fozzie).. she’ll let him get closer and they’ll lie down within a foot of each other (but no more without chasing ensuing).  Would it be wise to put them in the same cage yet?

So I guess I have a few questions:

1. Is this behaviour normal for a neutered bunny?  I’ve never had a boy before, but everything I’m reading says they should stop spraying after neutering.  And he was supposedly neutered over 6 months ago. Is there a way I can check without seeing a vet?  And if this is normal, is there a way to curb the behavior of pooping and spraying everywhere?

2. When would you recommend putting them in the same cage? I wonder if putting them together would help curb his need to “mark” everything with his scent.

Thanks so much!!!!

matt

[jerseygirl]

1. Is this behaviour normal for a neutered bunny? I’ve never had a boy before, but everything I’m reading says they should stop spraying after neutering. And he was supposedly neutered over 6 months ago. Is there a way I can check without seeing a vet? And if this is normal, is there a way to curb the behavior of pooping and spraying everywhere?

It’s not unheard of for a neutered rabbit, especially a young one. They can still spray… but if the urine is really smelly I’d be suspicious about if he is neutered also. One way to check is turn him on his back and check for testicles. I believe they are usually to each side or slighty forward of the genital mound. Rabbits can draw them up so it’s not a 100% foolproof way to check but if you’re seeing them, well then you know he’s intact!
Sometimes with neutered rabbits you can detect a very fine scar where the incision was.

Any chance his former owner can get you his vet records?

The pooping is likely just that it’s all new territory for him. No doubt his senses are on overload with that plus another rabbit being present. How long have you had him?
If he is infact intact, then I would attritbute this mostly to his hormones.

 

2. When would you recommend putting them in the same cage? I wonder if putting them together would help curb his need to “mark” everything with his scent.

You would need to bond them before they live in the same habitat. This process can take some time but not always. For some pairs it’s very quick, even instant. Because you are seeing a lot chasing, this could escalate to fighting so they are really not ready to be put together to live.
Check out the Binky Bunny info on Bonding if you haven’t already. https://binkybunny.com/BUNNYINFO/BondingInfo/tabid/63/Default.aspx
This is also a useful guide: http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/bond.shtml  
There are lots of other great resources about around so if you’re wanting more info, just ask here and I’m sure the members will be able to point you to some.

Hope this helps.

[Beka27]

It’s very important that you don’t just “put them together”. There is a very specific process that must be followed. A typical, “easy” bonding can take about two weeks start to finish. “Difficult” bonds can take several months. Read the info that Jersey posted. Also, this is a great bonding article:

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/bond.shtml

[matt]

Thanks for the help from both of you. I never read that article.. it was very informative.  I tried looking at his man parts last night but he was too agitated for me to get a close look… I’ll try again tonight.  He sprayed again around her cage.  But I’ll follow the steps laid out in the article and see how things go… I’ll keep you updated.  Thanks again!

[matt]

Here’s a picture of the 2 bunnies meeting for the first time if you’re curious! =)

[Beka27]

They are both so beautiful! I love Fozzie’s coloring!

Neutered males can still spray, especially to mark against another bunny. Once they are bonded, it should reduce or stop.

What is your plan for bonding? Do you have a neutral space (many people use a bathtub or bathroom)? Can you supervise their interactions for at least 30 minutes a day (60 minutes would be even better…). Do you have a method to “stress” them if necessary (a washing machine, a car)?

[matt]

I actually didn’t have a great plan. I did the whole “put the cages next to each other”. But they both seemed to get along pretty well… they were approaching each other and not trying to hurt each other that I probably accelerated the process too quickly. I’ve been letting them play outside their cages in the same room for many hours each day since I first got him 2 and 1/2 weeks ago. But this area has been Panda’s play space… so her scent is everywhere. For the most part, he’s just been chasing her around and she’ll let him approach and sniff her for a second and then she’ll run away again… and the process just repeats over and over (he’s very persistent). I was just assuming with time they would get used to each other and like to be next to each other (which I think is somewhat happening… he’s chasing her less and they rest occasionally, albeit briefly, about 1 ft from each other). I only just realized he’s been spraying… but he has been pooping in excessive amounts all over the play area since the beginning. I also assumed this would go away with time once they were used to each others’ scents.

So I read that article from rabbitnetwork.org last night… so last night I switched their cages (they slept in each others’ cages). And I’m planning on now giving them time in the bathtub (neutral space) each day… 15-30 min. I do have a question about this though… is this the only time they get outside of their cages? This is part of the reason I’ve had such a hard time with the slow bonding… i just feel bad when they’re rattling their cages wanting to come out (I’ve given in each time).

[matt]

Oh… about “stressing” them to help them bond. I thought that was mainly used if they are aggressive toward each other. And since they’re not, I wasn’t planning on using the car technique. Do you think otherwise?

And thanks again for all your advice… I appreciate it.

[Beka27]

It is used mainly for aggression, but it can be helpful to do it once or twice, because it will usually result in instant snuggling. It’s hard for them to fight when crowded in a small laundry basket atop a moving, noisy washing machine. You might want to give it a try.

At this point, they can still have out of cage playtime individually. But eventually you will want to have their only playtime be in the presence of the other. If they want to play, they HAVE TO BE NICE.

Are you switching them between cages every 24 hours? That is another technique that works well to mix up their scents. Leave the litterbox, the food bowls, hidey houses/toys in place… JUST switch the bunny. (I am assuming they’ve each been vet-checked so there are no parasites or other contraindications to having them in the same space.)

[matt]

Ok. Now I’m really confused. I put them in the tub for about 20 minutes. But it was pretty much Fozzie non-stop humping her. I did what the article told me and I wouldn’t let it last more than 15-20 seconds and I wouldn’t let him mount from the front. But the article didn’t say anything about humping. I’d push him off her and hold him away for a while but soon after that he was back to humping her. And she was making this squeaking noise… she’s never made any noises before. I can’t help but feel like he’s raping her and it’s my fault. Is this normal? and am I just overreacting?\

[matt]

Sorry for the freak out… as you can tell, my wife and I are very attached to Panda (we’ve had her 3 years). I just reread the section in the article about mounting and it warns that mounting may be incessant in the first few days. I’ll keep everyone updated if it continues…

[jerseygirl]

Bonding bunnies IS stressful on the humans, so don’t apologise.

Likely Fozzie thought his chances of getting to her were better in the bath tub. Its a useful place when you first put rabbits together because you can intercede quickly if needed.
Space can effect them very differently and varies rabbit to rabbit. You have to experiment a bit. Some do better in larger areas and some in even smaller areas. One of out fourm leaders used a cube made from NIC grids and had her rabbits in this side by side.

As your 2 have already had interaction in a larger space without aggression, you could probably continue with that, just in a more neutral zone. Try the bathroom floor maybe. You can also create neutral zones by putting a pen on a blanket or tarp. When I did this, i pegged sheets around the pen to make it feel more enclosed.

Since Panda is just escaping Fozzies pursuits and not fighting him (which is great!) you could put a hidey box in the area for her to go to. You will want to help move things along though. So petting them both siide by side, and feeding them in there together are some good ways for them to have positive interactions. Many rabbit Does are territorial when they were in the home first, but from what I can tell, Panda is not. That is a big bonus. : )

Edit to add:  You will really need to confirm if he’s neutered above all else. If he’s not, any efforts you make in bonding now are pretty much pointless. You may be able to call your vet and see if a vet tech can take a look. You mightn’t have to book in or pay for that. Alternatively and rabbit rescue that does things like grooming services? They would be accustomed to people bringing their pet rabbit in.   I’d even want the sex confirmed. The previous owner might have had a girl all this time and not known. It’s not unusual….lol

[Beka27]

About him being neutered… or not… the people you got him from, did they say THEY neutered him THEMSELVES (meaning: they made the appointment, they drove him to the vet, they picked him up after, they paid the vet for the neuter.) Or did they get him from someone else who SAID he was neutered? I’ve even heard of petstore employees telling people that 6 or 8 week old bunnies were neutered, when clearly, they were not. Can you find out more info about this?

That being said, neutered males (or females) can and will still hump as a show for dominance.

[matt]

You’re right, the previous owner did not have him neutered herself… it was original owner. She said she received Fozzie from a friend who shows rabbits when he was about 6 months old and she confirmed twice to me that she knows the original owner neutered him. I guess the only way to be sure is to bring him to the vet… but that’ll probably be a few weeks before I can schedule something. I’m just really hoping he’s neutered.

Thanks again for all your help and advice… I’ll keep you informed.

[Beka27]

Typically people who show rabbits do not neuter since the guidelines state that neutering disqualifies them from being shown. I’ve heard, on a rare occasion, of responsible breeders neutering prior to rehoming, but that’s very, very rare. Keep us posted.

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