My bunny is making an odd squealing sound…

[syv]

 Hello!

Well, after visiting th website several times, I finally decided to ask you guys for some advice. I have had  2 female rabbits, Chloe and Camelia, since last June. One of them (Cammy) has been unwell for almost 2 weeks. At first we noticed that she was making a strange squeal every now and again, but couldn’t figure out why. One day, we saw that she wasn’t pooping or eating very much and took her to the vet right away. She said that Cammy had fecal compaction and prescribed a whole  bunch of meds, including laxatives and gut motility medication, as well as critical care. We followed the tratment for 5 days, then took hewr back, thrilled, since everything had seemed to go back to normal. However, when we stopped giving her the treatment, she started squealing again. we took her back to the vet, who took another xray and told us everything was fine. I don’t know what to do to help my bunny! She really seems to be suffering. She only makes the noise at certain times of the day, and when she does, she contracts her whole body as if she is trying to poop. I thought maybe it was gas and tried giving her simetthicone, but it doesn’t seem to help. If anyone has any ideas at all, i would be grateful!

 

Thanks so much.

 

Syv

[bunnytowne]

OH noo poor girl.   I would try calling around for another vet.  Nothing wrong with going with another rabbit savy vet.  Getting another opinion

Just make sure the vet is rabbit savy.  I wonder if this is a side effect of going off the meds. She was having laxatives and such and now  she is off could have hardened up again.  Maybe take her off gradually if she is going to take more meds again.  Of course ask the vet about this.

It was just a thought.

[KatnipCrzy]

You need to either take her to another vet or call the vet she has been to and schedule another appt. as problem has not resolved.

[syv]

thanks so much for your advice. I will try to find another good rabbit vet. if anyone knows any in montreal, i’ll check them out! I’ve had a hard time finding people who see rabbits here, and was very hopeful about the last one!… Anyway, i’ll let you know of any developments.

thanks

[jerseygirl]

Gosh, the poor thing! It almost sounds like something akin to a kink in the bowel like humans get. (no idea if that’s possible in rabbits, by the way!)   From what I understand, rabbits hide pain and you’ll sometimes hear a loud tooth grind – I’ve not heard of this noise as an indicator.  Best not to rule out that this noise is caused by pain though.

Here’s a link to recommended rabbit vets in Quebec. Hope that helps some.
 

homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/Vet_CA-QU.html

[BinkyBunny]

Welcome! Gosh I am so sorry that this is what brought you here, but hopefully the advice of seeing the vet again or searching out another vet will help.

When she had xrays, did they check her teeth too? When she squeeks, is it at all food related – chewing on hay, food, grooming? If there is a way in which you can keep a record to figure out when this is happening exactly maybe it would help with figuring it out .

I hope everything turns out okay. Please keep us updated.

[syv]

ok, so here is the update. I called the vet back to find out if she had any advice. unfortunately, she won’t be in until monday. but on the lighter side, cammy seems alot better! Well, I don’t want to get my hopes up too much, especially since she still had a bout of squealing/whining this afternoon… but the last few days, it was going on forever (like 2-3 hours) of her squealing every few minutes… and today, it only lasted about 20 minutes, and it was much less intense… and that was 4 hours ago… she has been great since, hopping around, licking my face and eating happily. so i’m hoping that whatever it is is on its way out. But either way, i will talk to the vet on moday. If she can’t help, I will look elsewhere.

It’s so strange tho, because I can’t quite figure out what’S brought it on. whe only does it in the morning after feeding (9:30-11ish) and in the evening BEFORE feeding (5:30-7ish). and other than that she is ok. today though, i noticed that when she was squealing, whe also peed a bit, so i was wondering if it was possible that the whole ordeal was something like kidney stones? do rabbits get them?

thanks again.

[syv]

oh sorry, i jsut realized that i really didn’t answer the questions. so
1) thanks for the list, jerseygirl. if it doesn’t work out with my vet, i will try the one on sherbrooke west.
2)binkybunny: when the vet checked her out, she looked at her teeth and everything, and said everything was ok.

as i just said in my last post, it’s really confusing because other than her episodes of squealing and contracting, she acts like nothing is wrong. we have been trying o monitor what brings it on and what makes it go away, but the only link so far is the time… and it’s ALWAYS the same times. (except for once when it lasted all night. i was so scared! we went straight back to the vet the next morning).

i hope she is getting better!

[jerseygirl]

The poor darling! Yes, pretty certain rabbits can get kidney stones. I would have thought this would be picked up in the xray though. The hunching up is usually a sign of discomfort. Usually, they hide away and ball up like that. That she is being so vocal is….I don’t know!

I’d look at an emergency vet to have on hand, or one of the other vet options, incase you have to take her in over the weekend.

Here’s some info you might like to look over.

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/urinary.html
http://www.rabbit.org/health/urolith.html
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/bladder-disease.html

http://www.rabbit.org/health/pain.html

Sorry if it’s all a bit heavy!

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Oh gosh I’m glad your getting her back into the vet, it definitely is not resolved. If she stops eating or drinking over the weekend, you can syringe feed her some water or pedialyte, critical care or baby food. Just try to keep her hydrated and comfortable until you get into the vet.

If the vet does not resolve is (so she is not squealing-that’s an indication of pain) find another vet. She’s not well and uncomfortable. If things get worse over the weekend do you have an emergency vet you can go see??

Welcome by the way *hugs* {{VIBES}}

[jerseygirl]

Oh and what meds exactly were you given previously? If you still have some left, this may help you over the weekend. I’m sure I won’t know what they are(!) but there are sure to be many here that will.

[bunnytowne]

I do believe rabbits can get kidney stones.  Yes I remember hearing about that.  Also bring in a fresh sample of her urine  could be a bladder infection.

Usually you can collect it in the syringe right after she goes.

Or she may have a hernea.  My Laith had a hernia and would sit hunched in his last days b4 we agreed he had to go to rainbow bridge.

I am not saying this will happen with your rabbit.  Just a though to ask the vet to check these things.

I know you must be beside yourself right now trying to get proper help for your baby

[syv]

Hello again,

So I am starting to think that maybe Cammy was just having trouble coming off the medication. Since we have stopped treating her, she has been alot better. She has seemed perfectly ok since yesterday afternoon! Anyway, we have been able to stay home almost all weekend to keep a eye on her, so we’ll keep doing that until we can talk to the vet. I just want to make sure that she checks the xrays again for kidney stones, and I’ll ask if rabbits sometimes have adverse reactions to the drugs she prescribed, since that’s the other possibility, as far as i can tell (lactulose, metronidazole, cisapride and benebec). Also, i’ll find out if she thinks it could be a urinary tract infection. I do have extra meds (last time we went she gave us more than what she had prescribed, in case we needed to prolong the treatment), but I really don’t think the problem is in the gi tract… she has been eating and going to the bathroom normally, so i think that THAT problem has been resolved… so i don’t want to give her anymore of the meds which are targeting her gi tract.

I have been really frustrated with the whole situation! But i also don’t want to give up on my vet, who, for once, appears to be really experienced with rabbits, and used to have one! The other part of the problem is that we have been to the vet 3 times in the last week and a half, and… well, i’m a student! Money is getting tight, especially after 700$ worth of treatments (some of which i feel were unnecessary). so i will definitely bring her in to the vet if she seems to be in any pain, but if she continues to be ok, i will just try to get as much information from the vet as i can.

anyway, i realize that this is a long post and kind of convoluted, but i really do appreciate everyone’s help and concern! It helped me deal with the situation better and it also helped me to not panic too much! i felt that i was on my own before!

[jerseygirl]

Glad you’ll still take her in. Your rabbit was experiencing the problem prior to being put on the meds. Still, good idea to ask about the meds and possible reactions or interactions. It is possible this has happened on top of the initial problem. Perhaps one of the meds acted as a suppressant that masked the pain but didn’t fix the problem. Did the vet palpitate the tummy to look for lumps or bumps? As BT mentioned, possible hernia, also abdominal cramping, stomach acids could be causing probs..Best talk to your vet, good you have confidence in this one.

Glad to hear Cammie is doing better – hope she continues to be!

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Oh I’m glad to hear she’s doing better!! Keep us posted!

[syv]

Hello,
So Cammy is still not 100%… Although she seems ok most of the time, she has her fits of crying… which are horrible to listen to! even if they are much shorter than they were. we finally got a hold of the vet who said that it might be a urinary tract infection, but wasn’t sure. so we sent her a video of cammy. she will let us know what she thinks and if she thinks it is possible that it is a urinary tract infection, i will go and pick up the prescription tomorrow. if not… well i don’t really know. she was spayed in october, so i am also wondering if it is possible that it is a result of the operation? anyway, that’s the situation.

[jerseygirl]

It’s possible. Something like lesions on the scar, but they can’t be sure on that sort of thing until doing x-rays and the likes. Will the vet be physically seeing her?

[syv]

ok, so here’s the thing: we are going to the vet’s tonight without the bunny, to pick up meds for a urinary tract infection. I didn’t talk to the vet myself, my boyfriend did. so he forgot to ask her to check the films to see about kidney stones/leftover reproductive organs. I wanted to ask that tonight. he DID tell her that the girls were spayed in october though, and asked whether that might be related. I was wondering (i don’t know if you know this):
1) do urinary tract infection meds (i’m assuming antibiotics + probiotics?) have adverse effects?
2) could they check the xrays from last week (there were 2 dorsal and 2 lateral xrays, about 1 week apart) to see for that stuff (kidney+ repro)
3) do you know if things like lesions can be seen on xray or does it need to be an ultrasound? the vet mentioned maybe doing an ultrasound.
4) if there is a problem connected to the original surgery, is there anything we can do? we were very unhappy with the vet who did the surgery (he let someone ELSE perform the surgery on her, while he performed surgeryon chloe. i don’t know who this person is! we are not even sure they are experienced with rabbits, and cammy had a much harder time recovering thatn chloe did. also, the stitches were badly done on cammy.), which is why we switched vets when she was sick.
that’s the deal. i would like to not have to take cammy in again right away unless it’s necessary, since the trip to the vet freaks her out everytime, and also it’s FREEZING here (-20 °C)… but if we have to we have to.

thanks again

[BinkyBunny]

Oh my gosh! How frustrating that they can’t quickly get to the bottom of why she is in pain.

Regarding if antibiotics can have adverse affects. My bunny, Rucy, has been on all kinds of antibiotics throughout her life, and not one would cause the kind of reaction your bunny is going through. Some can cause more squishy or runny poop, and if that is the case, they usually adjust the dose or find an alternative med.

Regarding your other questions, I will have one of our leaders, Katnip, who knows more about the medical aspect of this come check out this thread, and see if she is able to answer these questions.

One question:  So would it be fair to say that this seems to be around the time she would normally eat, either before or after?   Does it seem to be “near” meal related only?  Does she poop and pee without any pain?

[syv]

thanks alot for your help. I know some of those were tough questions! It IS really frustrating. And I really want her to be ok! that’s what’s the most worrying. I tried last week leaving her at the vet’s for a day… but they said they didn’t know what was going on! I am willing to do what it takes for her, but i also am trying to be realistic about what i can afford…

anyway, as long as she is mostly happy, it makes it easier to deal with… especially when i get little minty licks on my nose!

[KatnipCrzy]

X-rays taken would unlikely show any reproductive organs- uterus/ovaries.  Sometimes if an animal has a infected uterus (filled with infection) called a pyometra that will show as an abnormal pattern on the x-ray.  But typically organs such as uterus, kidneys don’t give any info on x-ray unless they are grossly enlarged, etc- displacing other organs which can show as abnormal shading on an x-ray.   Ultrasound gives a better view of organs typically.  But x-rays are often a very common starting point- to try to determine which organ to ultrasound and if an ultrasound is needed.

Stones will often show on x-ray- if they are dense and made of calcium- they are opaque on x-ray like bone.  Stones can also be seen on ultrasound also.  It can be hard to see “grit” (tiny stones) on x-ray and ultrasound- grit is pretty much what it sounds like- it is usually the same stuff that stones are made of but they have not formed into large stones- but they are still irritating and problematic.  A urinalysis often shows if there are crystals in the urine which can cause stones and “grit”.

Lesions typically do not show on an x-ray.  A thickened irritated bladder wall can show on ultrasound, but will not show on an x-ray. 

X-rays can show the pattern of the organs- but ultrasound looks at them in detail.  Think of it in human terms- pregnancy and baby- and x-ray would show a skeleton (if far enough along) but ultrasound can determine sex, heart problems, etc.

[MarkBun]

 

What does her diet consist of?

 

[syv]

thanks, katnip. i wasn’t sure what the benefits were of the different approaches.
markusdark: she gets timothy-based pellets (oxbow) twice daily, as well as more timothy hay than she can finish in a day, and about 3-4 cups fresh greens a day (1/2 in the morning, 1/2 at night)…

in terms of vegetables, i had seen that some things contain more calcium, which i think is bad if there are kidney pbs (?) so since she hasn’t been feeling too well, we have avoided carrots and parsley. right now she is getting lots of lettuce and cilantro. Mint too, but today i ran out.

so we came back from the vet’s with antibiotics and anti-inflammatories for the “urinary tract infection”… which she may or may not have. as per usual… cammy acts as if nothing is wrong… but when i came home (around 7:30), i heard her squeal once… not very loud, though… I gave her the meds and she has not made anymore noise.

i really hope this is it!

[MarkBun]

The pellets should be only about 1/4 per 5 pounds of rabbit per day. I actually give mine about a little more than that but too much pellets could cause an issue. But overall, you seem to be giving her a perfect diet. Just checking as that is usually the #1 reason for digestive/waste issues.

[syv]

ok, so here is the update, i know it’s been a while: we started cammy on antibiotics for a urinary tract infection… she seemed ok the first day (last tuesday) but wednesday night she had another fit of squealing. i wanted to take her to an emergency vet, but the first place i tried wasn’t open. before trying the next place, we decided to give her some critical care. she actually stopped right away and seemed to get better (i now think this was a coincidence). the same evening, i sent an email to our vet asking her to contact us ASAP, (i gave her both our cellphone numbers), explaining that we really needed to do something to at least help cammy with the pain. i didn’t get an answer from them! I was really upset, as this was the 3rd time that the vet failed to answer one of our messages. So I called another vet (the one jerseygirl mentioned, on sherbrooke), and took her in on friday. the vet was great, she really seemed determined to get to the bottom of things. she also explained what she was doing every step of the way. so it seems that from the xrays, not much seems to be wrong although there was a hint of some sort of fibrous material in cammy’s bladder. the other thing is that her cecum seemed a little over-full. I am now waiting to have results from the urine analysis (of course cammy refused to pee in 24 hours at the vet’s. the only time she peed, she did it on a towel, so that they couldn’t get it) to know what to do next. Anyway, so we picked her up on saturday and brought her home. we were thinking that it might have been a urinary tract infection after all, because she showed no symptoms all weekend. that is, until 3am today. since then, i have been up with her, she has been crying on and off the whole time. i gave her her antibiotics and antiinflammatories, and some critical care, since she didn’t seem at all interested in her food. the next step is to take her back to the vet’s as soon as they open (10) along with the urine samples that i collected so that they can also do blood tests. i think my #1 priority is to get some anti-spasmodics or at least analgesics for poor cammy. when she has these fits i really feel like i am going to lose her! It’s been such a stressful morning, i can’t believe i am going to have to go to work after this….

[jerseygirl]

Glad you can work closely with the vet on this. Hope you get a breakthru. (((Cammy))) (((syv)))

Edit to add: Have you told the new vet about Cammy’s history regarding her spay and recovery?  So this fibrous tissue is actually inside the bladder?  I’m just thinking about what you mentioned about an inexperienced person doing her spay without your knowledge.  Totally throwing out ideas here you must understand – maybe it’s scar tissue here also.  Sometimes scar tissue can adhere to an opposing organ (known as adhesions) but this is what I know regarding human conditions.  If the same thing can occur in rabbits, then the complications of lesions/ adhesions is something worth investigating.  Be pretty important for the new vet to be aware of Cammy’s situation with the spay.

[Balefulregards]

I am so sorry I didn’t see this post before – I am in Montreal – and I use the exotics vet on Sherbrooke. In fact, I stopped in on Saturday to pick up more Orchard Hay, as Coco has been mowing through it.

I have had very good experiences with this Vet – they are an exotics Only practice ( as you know). They also do the neuters and spays for the Quebec Rescue Rabbit group. Every time I have called, I have either been seen, or had someone call back, without fail. They were very good after Coco’s Spay when I was worried about her lack of … everything. Even calling after a few days to simply check in and ask how we were all doing.

I know for a fact that they will work with you on payment plans, if cost is an issue.

I have no advice on your girls pain, except that I deeply hope that the Vet will get to the bottom of it, and you can all find some relief.

[jerseygirl]

Does anyone know if calcium / sludge shows in an x-ray? Could fibrous tissue showing possibly be calcium deposit?

Syv, has Cammy ever been giving sub-Q fluids during this ordeal?

Sorry for my continued guessing…hope this isn’t causing you any confusion.  I suppose the vet knows the answers to these questions so best to leave it with them.   Like you, I just would really love to see the little girl healthy and pain free!   Keep us posted.

[syv]

hey! thanks you so much for your replies, everyone.

I can confirm, Baleful: they are GREAT. Really professional, and they actually CARE about the animals, they are not just in it for the money! So I got Cammy in this morning and the urinalysis came back positive! So it really was bladder sludge, and she had high protein levels in her urine as well. I think the biggest thing that was missing in her treatment (you hit on this, jerseygirl) was really fluids. The vets took great care of cammy all day, giving her subQ fluids and metacam… so we will continue with the fluids for a few days to make sure she clears everything.

The girls get the same diet, but since Chloe (our other bunny) drinks LOTS of water, she did not seem to be suffering from high calcium… so we are just going to be more careful with Cammy, right now we are working through our lists of veggies and cutting out all the ones that have high calcium. I really feel much more confident with the new vets (on sherbrooke), knowing that they really went through everything methodically, checking all the possibilities, instead of taking a wild shot in the dark!

I’m not sure about the fibres in her bladder. The vet that saw the xrays on friday was not the same one who saw Camelia today, but she should be in touch with me tomorrow, so I can ask her then if it could be calcium deposits. Anyway, it’s just a relief to know where the problem is coming from! She must have been in so much pain

She is doing so much better now than she was this morning, so i’m hoping that by keeping up the treatment, she won’t have anymore relapses.

[MimzMum]

I am glad to hear that Cammy is doing better and you have a firmer diagnosis. ^_^ It’s so great to know exactly what is wrong…this having to guess and hope and wait is very difficult. Lots more healing vibes on their way to both bunny and you! (((((((hugs))))))))

[Balefulregards]

Hey – if you are there on Sherbrooke, pop over to the Marche Akhavan – They have the greatest greens – I get all my greens for Coco from them and it is cheap…and if you love Feta, they have amazing homemade Feta, among other things ( like that Nut bar – the Lemon and Salt marinated pistachios are just yummy!)

I am so glad that you got a firm diagnosis and that they are taking charge of her care. That is incredibly reassuring, and it sounds like she will be on the mend, and pain free!

[jerseygirl]

Oh good! Fingers crossed the problem is fixed!

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

That is FANTASTIC news!! So glad it’s figured out!!

[Beka27]

a GOOD VET can make a world of difference! It sounds like you really are in great hands! Feel better Cammy!

and Please keep us updated!

[bunnytowne]

OH my you 2 have been through a lot recently.   Glad you found a vet you and Cammy are comfy with.  Keep us updated will you  We all care.

[BinkyBunny]

What a relief that the problem was diagnosed so now the right treatment and healing can begin.

Jerseygirl – Good call and thanks so much for all your help.

[syv]

hello, just ANOTHER update…

well, since we have come back from the vet’s (that’s monday night), Cammy has been doing well! I have to say that we are seriously struggling with the sub-Q fluids, since she vehemently objects to being forced to hold still on the table… which is so scary, cause when she tries to kick and she has a needle in her, it really worries me. but CLEARLY, this is what needed to be done.

she still cried a little on tuesday night, because it had been more than 24 hrs since her last treatment with fluids, and again wednesday morning, despite getting them the night before… but both of those times, she stopped quickly once once we gave her the fluids… and since yesterday night, she has seemed ok all the time. Keeping our fingers crossed! thanks again for all you kind words and thoughts!

i just hope that she will be able to clear the sludge soon so that we can stop giving her the fluids. we will check again toinght, but last time i looked at her urine, it was opaque still. I was just wondering if anyone knows how clear the urine is supposed to be? every time i have seen the bunnies’ pee, it has looked cloudy, if not totally opaque. soo i don’t know if this is normal or if they have had kidney problems all along?

anyway, it helps that the two girls are great eaters! we gave them things we don’t usually feed them (radishes and brussel sprouts) because they are supposed to be low in calcium… and they took one sniff and started chowing down! it’s such a relief to have them both seeming healthy and happy again.

so we are still treating her until saturday, then we will call the vet back to get directions about toning down/stopping the fluids…

[jerseygirl]

Hi syv, very glad to hear you are still seeing an improvement! Bladder sludge is tricky and there’s been some discussions here about the true cause. Sarita, one of the forum leaders has ad a lot of experience with this issue with some of her bunnies. She mentioned that current thinking in on it is not so much dietary calcium but also inactivity – especially in older rabbits. (Is this right Sarita??)

I’ve always been wary of it as I observed a whitish paste in my rabbits urine when she was younger, but not so much now. I think keeping calcum watch in the diet is still important. The calcium in veggies is highly diluted, but it’s the calcium content in pellets you really have to watch.

When you say radishes….is that the radish tops/leaves? I know buns are a fan of them but not so sure about actual radish…????

I think it is normal to see slightly opaque urine. Pale yellow, slightly opaque though colour can vary bun to bun and depending on the last meal too!

[syv]

oops. is it bad to give the whole radish? my bunnies ate it. also… well… imay have spoken a little too soon. Cammy started squeaking again, we gave her her fluids about 30 minutes ago, but she is still crying. i think it takes some time before she pees and it feels better. i will search the other forums on bladder sludge. if it is not dietary calcium, what can we do? we have already cut back on the pellets…

[jerseygirl]

Oh, I am not saying it isn’t that. The vet is the best person to say one way or another. As I said, “sludge” is tricky. A bit of whitish stuff in the litter box is not necessarily real bladder sludge. She may have the UTI on top of this. Weren’t you getting treatment for an infection too? Maybe that is also causing discomfort when she pees. Important thing is she’s getting fluids and eating! Are you keeping notes? Be a good idea to note when you give fluids, when she cries, when she eats/ drinks etc as best as you’re able. Then take them into the vet on Saturday so they can get a better picture.

[syv]

ok, thanks for the info. the thing is, i have been saying it’s bladder sludge, but i just realised (through reading about it) that bladder sludge is actually white… cammy’s urine has never been white, always yellow-orange, and opaque. i thought that the fact that it was opaque was because of a problem. also, the vet said that urinalysis showed that her urine was “sandy”. i was planning on calling the vet saturday, but now i think i should call tomorrow to ask what else we can do… we are thinking of maybe taking her in and leaving her there for a few days so she can get her fluids and more supervision. I’m not sure what is best. I don’t want to upset her more than necessary, but on the other hand… well, it’s hard to tell what is going on because she seems to react well to a treatment, and then starts crying again. i’m feeling so guilty about her being in pain! also, we are on our last little bit of metacam, so i think i will try to get them to give me something else tomorrow. but i also don’t think it’S great that she has been on medication for the last 3.5 weeks! i’m so sad… i wish i knew what else to do…

[syv]

oops, i meant to add in to that post: she has been on antibiotics and metacam for a UTI since feb 3rd

[jerseygirl]

Hopefully they’ll do another urine test on Sat to see if infection has cleared. If it hasn’t, could be the antibiotics weren’t aggressive enough. The grit from memory is calcium crystals. At least it’s coming out. Opaque urine is normal as this is how rabbits excrete excess calcium. Bladder sludge is supposedly a thick pasty, almost yellowish colour I think.

Ok, had a very quick look at this. I think it’ll help answer some of your questions about calcium/sludge etc
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/urinary.html

You’ve given her outstanding care and she’s no where near in the state that you first reported here. Maybe it’ll be good to call the vet and just touch base. They may have some tips or put your mind at ease until Saturday.

[syv]

… another bad night… cammy cried last night for SOO long!
she started around 7:30 and didn’t stop until past midnight… we did everything we could: metacam, antibiotics, fluids…. i even gave her a few syringes of water and a bit of a tummy rub, on the off chance it would help her pee…. in the end she stopped crying, and, as per usual, this morning she is a happy little bunny, scooting around at top speed and looking for ways to get herself into trouble (“ooh, what’s in that ikea bag?”). I was concerned this morning, because there was no pee in her litterbox, but then i realised she had peed all over therug in her cage! so… unfortunately, i won’t be able to collect any to give to the vet… but anyway, i will call them today to see what they say…

[BinkyBunny]

I’m so sorry it was a bad night! What id the vets say when you called them? I’ll also contact Sarita to see if she can help with this post as she may have some advice to add at this point.

[Sarita]

I have alot of experience with bladder sludge with many of my rabbits.

It really sounds like you are on the right track – ask the vet to show you how to express her bladder – you want to hold her upright and basically cup your hand and run it up and down the stomach (bladder area) and uterus area to help give her that sensation to release her bladder – holding her upright will help the sludge go down to the uretha where it can be released otherwise it is just sitting in the bladder.

Are they on pellets? Usually alfalfa pellets can be a culprit – veggies are high in water content so while some may be higher in calcium most vets don’t worry about the calcium content as it is diluted in the vegetables.

Unfortunately not as much is known about bladder sludge as we rabbit owners would like – it just has not been studied much according to my vets. Many theories are slowly being discounted though – like too much calcium in vegetables. In fact many vets who have studied this on their own have found when they do blood work that the calcium levels are lower than normal…

Bladder sludge is like a very thick paste – that’s why it’s important to try to express her bladder to encourage her to release it.

What type of antibiotics is your vet giving you? Baytril is supposed to be good for urinary problems and that is normally what my vets give me.

It is difficult to get a good urine sample too because of the sludge but hopefully your vet can get one for you.

[syv]

hi… well, it’s been a few days. friday morning, i called the vet… they told me that basically we were doing everything that we could… to stop the fluids and continue the antibiotics (i was giving her enroflaxacin, which i believe is the active agent in baytril). I went back to see them to get extra medication, since the metacam was running low. the thing is, friday and saturday nights, she cried again for about 30 minutes per day… on sunday morning, she did it again, and when i picked her up, i noticed that her heels and tail had these dark rust-ccoloured streaks on them… .i was really worried, since it seemed that it might be blood in her urine. i checked the corner she had been in, and sure enough, when i wiped it, i saw a little bit of a reddish colour on the tissue. but the thing is that a soon as i put her back down, she seemed completely ok. i called the vet this morning, and she said that she was concerned about the fact that things haven’t really been improving that much (well, not enough, at anny rate)… so i am going back tomorrow to get new treatment: penicillin injections, instead of baytril. they are supposed to be subcutaneous, once a week shots. i don’T know if this will help, but i really hope it will make a difference… tonight, she has had another bout of crying, and it has been going on for an hour already…
i am bringing in another urine sample tomorrow…

as for the diet, sarita: she only gets timothy-based pellets, and only 1/8 cup per day… otherwwise, she gets plenty of greens. i have been cutting out high calcium vegetables on the advice of my vet, but i still mke sure she gets a good variety of things. usually 3 or more types of veggies per meal.

thanks for your help… i’m getting very frustrated! it has been so long since we first realised that she had a problem… i really was hoping it would be solved by now. i just can’t stand hearing her cry, and knowing she is in so much pain

[MimzMum]

Hey syv, I’m sorry to pop in here but, are you sure the vet said penicillin? I’ve been reading up on antibiotics lately and I thought penicillin in any form is toxic to a rabbit? Would one of the other members chime in here please who are more knowledgeable?

EDIT: Ah, I’m sorry, never mind. I jsut Googled it and it says as long as it is the injectable kind it is okay. Sorry , I jsut got spooked there for a second. >.<

I want to add some healing vibes for your sweet little bun, I know it is SO hard watching them go through something that is uncomfortable for them and feeling helpless in the process. I do hope she feels better soon! ((((((big hugs))))))))

[syv]

haha, thanks, mimz! you freaked me out too for a second, until i forced myself to read down to the end of your post! thanks for the vibes!.

she is doing ok right now, she should be alright for the night. at least i hope…!

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

The red is likely from the beets/radishes I’d think? But yes, just the leaves, not the veggies are good to give-not toxic but very high in calories and carbs

Injectable is fine for bunnies

The color of the urine isn’t so important-sandy is what your vet said and that means their are crystals/sludge in the pee. The color will be caused by diet (White means their is calcium in it) and generally yellow/orange/red are fine-my buns pee seems pretty opaque as well.

{{vibes}} Keep us posted!!

[Sarita]

Enroflaxin may be causing the pee to turn brownish reddish – common with antibiotics. Honestly most of my rabbits pee in an orangish reddish color.

It sounds like the vet has a plan and it could take awhile for her to get better – this condition may never go away but you can at least control it. Hang in there – I know it’s hard when your bunny is in pain.

Do ask your vet to show you how to express her bladder as well – this is not difficult and it will help excrete some of the sludge.

[bunnytowne]

OH my goodness.   Poor bunny.   I know it just breaks your heart to hear her cry.   This is  a very difficult situation for the both of you.  Vibes coming your way.

You are doing all you can we know.  And  I am sure so does your girl.  May this be cured soon. 

[bunnytowne]

You know I am just wondering if this is similar to a cats urinary tract infection.    The crystals get too big to pass through the urethra or penis.  A cathetar is done to remove and get the urine moving out again.  Jsut a thought.

[bunnytowne]

about the blueberries.  I give mine 2 everynite.   Thats how I trained Cotton to go to bed.  I dont’ think the blueberries would affect the urine like this.

[syv]

well, i went to the vet’s tuesday and cammy got her penicillin shot. on the upside, we have hardly heard her cry since we came home (so far… knock on wood). unfortunately, she seems really lethargic, and doesn’t want to eat anything… it’s the first time throughout this whole ordeal that she has actually been refusing food! i’m a little worried…. but she doesn’t seem to be in any pain, just a little drugged up and woosy. last night, we gave her some critical care, since i didn’t want her to spend 24hrs with an empty stomach… we only got her to swallow about 10mL (I had at least as much on myself)… she is such a stubborn girl… i was just wondering if anyone had any experience with this?

otherwise, we have started up the fluids again… but that too is a struggle. we tried splitting it up into to 2 times: half the morning and half the evening… but really it is just as hard. she just does not like to be handled… and i think we are doing it right because at the vet’s, my boyfried actually did the penicillin injection, with the tech watching, and she said he was doing it perfectly… since they are both sub cutaneous, it should be the same technique.

as for the urine… well, yeah, we were told that the colour was probably not something we needed to worry about, as it did not look like blood… but it was still cloudy, which is why we are giving her fluids again.

anyway, thanks for your advice! i am again cautiously hopeful… but i really wish cammy would run around a little!

[syv]

well, that last wish just came true at least! just when i stopped watching her, miss cammy decided that actually she wanted to run around for a bit and jump on top of a cardboard box that they have to play with… phew! she is still not eating tho, but i am at least glad to see her active!

[Sarita]

Oh that’s great – I’m so glad she is getting better. It sounds like the fluids and pen-g are helping quite a bit. Sometimes pen-g will keep them from eating so that could be the reason – how often will you be giving her this?

[bunnytowne]

no more squealing what a relief for you both.   Yes the meds may make her decrease in appetite.

Keep up the good work all 3 of you. Sounds like  your hubby has the injection stuff down pat.  Yes buns usually give you a hard time with syring feeding.  They can be so difficult sometimes.

[Beka27]

I’m sending out continued feel better vibes for Cammy! You’re doing a great job to help her thru this!

[MimzMum]

((((((((((((get better, Cammy!))))))))) Oh I do hope this will work out! Poor thing, both you and your bun must be about tired of treatments at this point. Feel better!

[syv]

haha, yeah, that’s an understatement, Mimz! We are getting really frustrated with everything, and Cammy now gets upset when we come near her: we are usually either trying to force-feed her, stick a needle in her, or some other form of bunny torture… poor girl!

yeah, i don’t want to ge too excited until a few more days have gone by, but… i AM so relieved that she hasn’t been squealing since her shot… it was just heartbreaking!

sarita: The penicillin shots are once/7days. the plan is to give her 2 shots (so she has already had the first), and if things are better, then we stop. if not, we can give her a third. But since she is having such a hard time with the treatment, i really hope 2 shots will be enough!

hah, the vets now recognize my voice on the phone: “oh, camelia…”

as long as my bunny is better, it’s all worth it

i just can’t get over the fact that despite ALL the treatments, the repeated trips, x rays and even having her stay overnight at this new vet’s (on sherbrooke), we still haven’t spent half as much as what we spent at the first vet’s in 3 visits! grr. i wish we had known where to go from the beginning!

i know i’ve already said this, but… thanks again for your support, everyone!

[BinkyBunny]

I know your vet already recognizes your voice, but if your bunny is not eating soon and is still lethargic, then you need to tell your vet. Keep up with the fluids as prescribed the best you can as that can affect appetite too.

Sending HEAL PLEASE vibes!

[syv]

hey.. yeah, actually, when cammy hadn’t voluntarily eaten for over 24hrs, i called the vet… they told me that they were concerned, as it is not a normal reaction to the penicillin, but suggested that it might be an accumulation of the different treatments, as well as the stress of going in to the vet’s so many times, etc… so basically, the best thing to do is just to keep giving her critical care and fluids, and they boosted the dose of metacam…. and that’s it. she STILL is not eating much, only a bit of hay (so this has been going on since tuesday night, now!), but we make sure she gets a good bit of critical care twice a day… she is pooping a little, but not as much as i would have liked… but she is getting more and more active, actually, she is practically herself now! she jumps around on her shelves (she has an NIC cage with 4 levels) and as soon as we open her cage she comes out and runs around, she even binkied this morning! so at least behaviour wise she is ok. what’s bothering me is that we will have to give her another penicillin shot on tuesday… so it might be the same thing all over again. grr.

[jerseygirl]

Are you noticing the pain relief is affecting her behaviour? You mentioned she just received more an now she’s more active…I’m still wondering about her spay complications and possible adhesions. Has the new vet looked into any of this yet or shared any info? ((Continued healing vibes for Cammy))

[syv]

hello again. yes, i had wondered a little about the pain… but all week we have been paying close attention to her behaviour, and she has steadily been getting better… we phased out the metacam over the weekend, and as the drugs wore off, she started eating again… saturday was the first day that i actually saw her eating food voluntarily, and yesterday she polished off her bowl of greens and her pellets… so i am thinking she is back on track. we also gave her her second penicillin shot last night… i was concerned that she might stop eating again, but so far she seems ok… so i don’t know if the behavioural changes were really due to the penicillin, or if they were because of the stress… ? but regardless, she is just doing SOOO much better! we knew she was feeling good when she started getting herself into trouble again (climbing up on our kitchen chairs, trying to make a break for it, etc…!)

phew! hopefully she will continue like this!

[bunnyluvr]

I have been following this thread since the beginning of yours and Cammy’s ordeal and you have both been in my thoughts. It broke my heart to hear of the pain she was going through. I lost my sweet bunny angel girl in July of 2008 due to complications from bladder stones. Whenever she would try to pee she would squeal for what seemed like forever and it would rip my heart out. I am so glad to hear that little Cammy is feeling better (and you!) and getting into mischief again! I’ll keep my fingers crossed that the trend continues. ((((((((((((((Cammy!!!))))))))))))))

[syv]

hello… i’m so sorry to hear about your loss… i think there are few things sadder than hearing a bunny squealing non-stop… and not knowing how to help! i am so very relieved that she is feeling better… it really looks like she is back to her sweet little self… i am still very jittery: every time i hear a strange sound in the house i wonder if i is her!!! but she hasn’t peeped since she first got her penicillin… we’ll be keeping an eye out this upcoming week after the penicillin wears off (normally as of tuesday) to make sure that nothing comes back…. but i am hopeful. she just looks perfectly ok!

i love happy bunnies!

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

That’s fantastic news that shes eating well again! In fact it sounds ilke she’s steadily been doing better and better! {{Continued Healing}}

[jerseygirl]

Some bladder sludge issues are currently being discussed in the forums and it reminded me of Cammy. How is she getting on?

[bunnyluvr]

Yes I would like to know how she’s doing as well.

[skunklionshow]

I’m so happy she is getting better.  Healing bunny kisses from my crew (Jess & Leo…those Jess doesn’t give kisses)

[Author]

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