My bun peed on my son!!!

[JK]

We adopted an adorable Holland Lop from a rescue 3 weeks ago and Edson has been an absolute angel.  He’s super affectionate, loves to be held, doesn’t chew or dig!  He has been quite a momma’s boy (prefers me over anyone else) though which kind of bothers my 15 yr. old son who was the one who wanted to adopt him in the first place! I was sitting in his pen holding him, then groomed him and then my son came in and wanted to hold him.  So I put Edson on his lap.  Edson went crazy climbing up his chest licking him on the face and lo and behold he peed all over him.  This frieked my son out and the only thing I can think of is he was super excited rather than trying to mark him. This little guy drinks more water than I think is normal too, about 48 oz. a day, so I’m sure he just had to go.  Any thoughts?????  Thanks.

[babybunsmum]

hmmm… don’t know about the water / day so hopefully some one else will have some insight for you.  as for the peeing on your son, could be he was just happy / comfy i think.  is Edson neutered?  maybe for extended cuddles you could have a towel on your lap incase he pees.  i had a bun that would do that.  snuggle right up in my lap & then pee.  he did it every time.

[JK]

Yes he is neutered. My son did have a towel on him but boy did he get drenched! Thanks.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

hello…I pulled this about rabbit drinking habits for you…http://www.exoticpetvet.net/smanimal/rabanatomy.html

The kidneys, ureters, urinary bladder and urethra are all parts of the urinary tract of the rabbit. Interestingly, a two kilogram rabbit will drink about as much water as a 10 kilogram dog in a normal day, so when compared to other species, rabbits have a high water intake normally. The most common problems related to the urinary tract involve high calcium levels in the blood that create stones, sludge or sand that may affect the kidneys, ureters, bladder or urethra. Most mammals have a fractional urinary excretion of calcium of less than two percent, but in the rabbit, the range for calcium excretion is around 45-60 %. This calcium that is excreted through the kidneys can result in the mineral causing a variety of problems as it precipitates out, resulting in depression, decreased appetite, weight loss, lethargy, blood in the urine, decreased or no urinary output, straining to urinate, grinding the teeth, a hunched posture and urine scalding of the skin around the hind end. The urine may appear cloudy, creamy or turbid. If radiographs are taken, it may be possible to visualize calcium sand or stones in the urinary tract. To lessen the calcium excreted through the kidneys, rabbits should be offered grass and timothy hay and vegetables. Alfalfa-based pellets should not be offered, as alfalfa is high in calcium, and if any pellets are offered at all, timothy/grass hay based pellets should be given.

It’s hard to tell if he did it on purpose..he may have been holding it in, since he was cuddling with you and just couldn’t hold it anymore…Or maybe he decided that your son is now his property….I’m sure this grossed out your son-the good news is rabbits usually don’t do this, so it shouldn’t happen again!

[JK]

Thanks for the info. He’s eating a ton of timothy hay and only 1/4 cup of timothy based pellets and 1 cup+ of greens so I know his diet is right. It may be an adjustment period as his prior owners probably only gave him pellets. He pees so much I have to clean his litter box every day. yes my son was completely grossed out and claims he won’t hold him ever again!

[babybunsmum]

glad you got some good info!  wow thats a  lot of pee… no wonder your son was grossed out huh?  guess my old bun made an unusual habit out of it

[xnovalentine]

haha the first time my rabbit peed on me it was like a gallon! It was so funny I’m really glad no one was around to see it. I read somewhere that a rabbit will mark you if they are comfortable and peeing is only a sign of liking you and in a way claiming you as theirs. I thought it was sweet that lullabelle peed on me … but i was not happy lol! She was sitting in my lap around the crotch of my pants when she decided to do it. She peed so much it leaked through to the other side of my pants which was soaked, (disgusting really) my underwear was soaked, and it was also a big stain on the couch. She also had pooed on me and when i stood up it looked like i peed myself more than being peed on.

[LittlePuffyTail]

Well I hope your bunny learns his manners!!! Bindi peed on me a couple of times when I first got him. Never on the floor, only on my lap for some reason. He hasn’t done it in a long time though.

Beat this pee story guys: Velvet loved to sit on the top of the couch whie I watched tv (she watched CSI with me every night ). I was laying down on the couch when she suddenly peed on me, most of it going in my ear!! Pretty gross, but it was my own fault for having her out so long with no potty!!!!

[xnovalentine]

ewwww! your pee story beats my pee story!!!

[MarkBun]

I’ve been lucky and never had my bunny pee on me but the first night I spent over at my girlfriends, I felt her rabbit hop up onto me. I looked up (as I was lying on my side) and saw her towering over me sitting on my shoulder. I already knew what was up and said to her, “go ahead and get it over with,” at which point she turned, gave me the bum and peed on my shoulder. Luckily it was a very small amount and the blanket caught all of it. But since then, I have been ‘hers’ so she hasn’t had to remark me.

[Scarlet_Rose]

When was the last time your rabbit was seen by a vet? How much litter do you put in the box and is it completely saturated? If so, this may be a sign of a more serious medical condition and you just might want to take him in for an annual check up. The peeing on your son though could be territory or that he just couldn’t hold it anymore either.  How embarassing!

[JK]

We just got him 3 weeks ago from a rescue.  I believe he was seen by a vet because he was neutered by the rescue.  I put a thin layer of stove pellets like they do at the rescue and it blows up with the amount of pee.  I do think he drinks too much water, about 48 oz for a 4 lb rabbit.  He just ventured out tonight from his xpen (which is attached to his cage) and got really curious and then went back in his cage and peed before he got to the litter box.  He has not been confident enough to venture out before and I think because of the quantity of water he drinks he just can’t hold it.  My fault, I should have put another litter box outside of the xpen.  You have a good point.  I will make an appointment with the vet for an exam.  Thanks for that advice.

[Gravehearted]

How often are you refilling that 48 oz bottle? If it’s daily that’s a very large amount of water!

It sounds like it would be a good idea to bring him into the vet’s for an initial exam anyhow, just to make sure he is healthy.

[JK]

Yes I am filling it twice a day – it’s a 32 oz bottle. he goes through a bottle and a half, about 48 oz.. I am definitely taking him to the vet.  Yesterday was the first day he actually came out of his xpen which is attached to his cage to explore.  He was getting quite brave but I steered him back in the xpen as I didn’t want to give him too much open freedom yet.  When he went back to his cage he peed all over the entrance.  OK I figured he just could not make it to the litter box.  But now what stumps me is this morning he had peed all over the entrance again.  I leave the cage door open all night.  What the heck is going on here? This rabbit has had perfect litter habits until the "freedom" and of course peeing on my son.

[Beka27]

i’m getting really worried… something about this doesn’t seem right.  that is alot of water.  how much water on average do other people’s rabbits drink?  Meadow has the same bottle as you do… the 32 oz bottle.   she drinks… AT MOST… between 4 and 8 ounces in a 24 hour period… she’s about 3 and a half pounds.  so i’m thinking your bun is either way overdrinking or Meadow is way underdrinking… and now i’m getting worried.  Meadow can be out for between 1 and 2 hours without needing to use the bathroom.  she has the "ideal" bunny diet… her veggies are usually a tad bit damp when i give them to her.  now that i think about it, i don’t remember how much Stephen (my first bun) would drink in a day…  so what’s average?

[Beka27]

Meadow has also never peed outside of her cage… she has peed next to her litterbox (i think) a total of 3 or 4 times in the 4 months we’ve had her… twice being right after her spay and i don’t think she could get into her box.  1 time she did it b/c instead of cleaning her litterbox every other day like i normally do, i didn’t have a chance to do it and i went ONE DAY LONGER and she GOT MAD!

[babybunsmum]

i’m glad you’re taking Edson to the vet to help sort this out.  Beka, my bun drinks no more than 4oz from her bottle daily and she gets more water in her wet greens (i’ve seen her lapping water up from the bowl i put her greens in).

where is the water bottle hanging?  is it over his litter?  i ask because a couple of time Baby has knocked her water bottle spout around to hard that it partially dislodges and water has leaked out.  i know peeing is a concern for you, but is there a chance some of that water is leaking out?  just a thought.

[JK]

The water bottle is at the opposite end of the litter box.  It does not drip at all.  Now I am really worried.  One person said that bunnies drink as much as a 20 pound dog but I don’t know how much that is.  The thing that gets me is Edson seems so happy and healthy but I am phoning that vet ASAP.  Thank you ALL for your responses.  I am very impressed with this website!

[Beka27]

i looked up some things… the hypothalamus is what controls hunger and thirst IN HUMANS… i assume it’s the same for all mammals, altho it may not be… if people have a problem with their hypothalamus, it may not tell them when they’re full so they overeat thinking they’re hungry.  same with drinking. 

people can get polydipsia which mean they ingest huge quantities of water and also polyuria which means they pee excessive amounts… one may be caused by the other… either they drink too much so they pee too much… or they pee too much so they HAVE to drink to keep hydrated.

this is in humans… it may or may not be the same for rabbits or other mammals, but yes… please contact the vet and see what he or she says.  blood work may be necessary.  i guess some animals can also be incontinent…?

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Ok, here is some better info: From the university of Miami…
You will have to figure out by weight, but I do think your bun is drinking too much and should see a vet (as you said you are taking him…) Keep us posted knowltons4!

http://iacuc.med.miami.edu/x21.xml

Basic Biological Data
Adult body weight: male
2-5 kg1

Adult body weight: female
2-6 kg1

Life span
5-6 up to 15 years1

Food consumption
5 g/100 g/ day1

Water consumption
5-10 ml/100 g/day6

Rectal Temperature
38.5-39.5C4

Heart rate
205-235/minute6

Respiratory rate
30-60 per minute1

[Beka27]

that seems to low tho…

if my conversions are correct 5-10 ml a day work out to be only  .17 – .34 ounces… much less than an ounce…

[Gravehearted]

Yes, I think getting  Edson into the vet’s office sounds like a wise idea. Excessive drinking and peeing can be a sign of renal failure or  kidney trouble.  It’s hard to know what conditions he was in prior to coming into the shelter, unfortunately.

Since I know the bunny is new to you, I’m not sure if you have a bunny vet yet. Since bunnies are still considered an exotic, it’s important to see a vet who is knowledgeable about bunnies. HRS has a list of vets that see rabbits, that will be a good place to start:  http://www.rabbit.org/vets/vets.html

Peeing can also be a marking / behavioral thing, especially since he has done so twice in front of his house. I’d recommend spaying that area with some water / vinegar mix – since that’s good for removing the scent and stain. I use Nature’s Miracle for carpet stains, since it’s bunny safe and works well.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Average weight lets say five pounds…

Result: 5 lb = 2267.96 g

so then 10 ml/100 g; 10ml x 22 Then 220 ml

 

so roughly a cup of water for a five pound bunny….so eight ounces in a cup…

Can anyone check my math? I’m horrible!!!

[JK]

Wow. That just does not seem right.  Are you saying a 5 lb. rabbit should only drink 1 cup of water a day?  I know the rescue told me that the rabbits there drink 1/2 to 3/4 of a 32 oz bottle a day so that’s like16-24 oz a day.  I do have a call into the vet but have not heard back yet.  I will let everyone know what the norm is and also what happens with this water guzzler!

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I know that I am waiting with baited breath!!! I am now very curious! Mine don’t seem to drink much water at all-I would doubt even the one cup a day!!

[Scarlet_Rose]

I am so glad you are able to take your bun to the vet and be sure to let them know exactly how much per day is being consumed. To add to the kidney and renal failure it could also be bladder stones or diabetes as well.  I really hope the vet gets in touch with you soon.  Do you have any idea if he was housed in or around pine or cedar shavings?  It may be ncessary to do a blood test and please let us know what the vet says. I’m glad you found this site!

[JK]

I have no clue about his past life but I assume it was bad.  I’m getting a little frustrated because I have 2 calls into the vet and she has not called me back yet.  She is supposedly an excellent vet that Saveabunny Rescue in Mill Valley uses but I sure wish she would call.  By the way I started a water topic under the food and care forum just to see what other peoples’ rabbits are consuming and it is shocking – 2- 4oz. a day!  Something is definitely wrong.  I’ll keep you all posted.

[Beka27]

if you don’t hear back is there another vet you can call to just ask the question?  i’m very worried for your bun b/c i don’t think that’s a healthy amount.

[JK]

Yes I found another one and I’m going at 10:00 today.  I’m starting to panic about this so wish us luck!

[babybunsmum]

(((luck & hugs)))

for sure let us know when you get back!

[Beka27]

(((((((((((((((Feel Better Edson!!!)))))))))))))))

good luck at the vet!!!

[JK]

Edson Update – Just got back from the vet ($280 later). They took a complete blood panel but I won’t know anything until late tomorrow.  Also took a urine sample and the vet was slightly encouraged because it was cloudy.  The low down on  water consumption is the average rabbit drinks about 4 ounces of water a day! Edson was also slightly on the thin side even though he eats hay all day long. So I really don’t know much more but at least things are in the works and we pray it’s just an infection of sorts and not something very serious. I’ll keep you posted! 

[Beka27]

hmmm.  him being thin could maybe also be related to the amount of water he drinks… he’s basically flushing himself out every single day… [i should really drink more water…]

[Scarlet_Rose]

Oh I do hope that Edson is going to be O.K. and whatever it is, won’t be hard on him or you.  I am so sorry that other vet didn’t call you back.  All my nails would have been chewed off if I had to wait that long, I’m glad you called another vet and got him in right away.  Poor fella, I’m rooting for him!

[JK]

I hope so too but I just got a call from the vet that did not call me for 2 days and she said she’s afraid it is e.cuniculi which has been seen in many of the rabbits from the shelter he originally came from.  I’m so depressed and actually getting mad that I have to go through this with a rabbit I just got! This really sucks. Thanks for the kind words.

[Scarlet_Rose]

Most bunnies have e. cuniculi but do not exhibit symptoms and some things like stress trigger it.  It is treatable thank goodness but I don’t blame you for being upset about it since the shelter didn’t mention anything about it.  But, like I said a rabbit can have it without exhibiting any symptoms. 

Here is some info on e. cuniculi:

http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/rwf/articles/ecuniculi.htm

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/treatment.shtml

Charky and Ash’s web site is a great place for medical info too.

[JK]

Another Edson update – So we finally got his blood work back and there are a few slightly high readings on liver enzymes and BUN values but nothing high enough to warrant drugs.  He does have an abnormal urine reading (sorry I forget the medical terms for all this)  and high calcium levels in the urine but it could be from a number of things. So now he has to go in for xrays tomorrow to see if he has a kidney stone!  If not, then they will keep him and do various tests by withholding water and then monitoring exactly how much he is drinking.  Two interesting things – they want me to give him filtered water because there may even be something in our tap water that is setting this off AND they said no broccoli or anything from the cabbage family.  I had given him some broccolini a few days and that is BAD – can trigger something that can stay in the system for 7-10 days.  I had read that it is fine to give him this and now I feel bad that I did. I do feel this vet is being very thorough but it is $$$$$!  I am so attached to this rabbit I will do whatever it takes.  They did not test for e. cuniculi because they needed more blood but they will next week .  I wish they had, that’s the only complaint I have so far. BUT this vet said there would be more symptoms than just the excessive drinking.  Anyway that’s it for now.

[MooBunnay]

You may also consider getting in touch with the rescue you adopted him from to see if they know anything about him drinking more water than normal. It may have something to do with his past owners.

Also, relating to the litterbox habits, when a bunny starts to get comfortable in their new home they will start marking their territory, and when you start giving them new space, they will try to mark their new areas as well, so that could be the reason for the lapse in his litterbox habits.

[Beka27]

don’t feel too bad about the broccoli thing… you didn’t purposely give it to him to hurt him.  and you’re doing all you can to make him feel better and he’ll appreciate it.

[JK]

Oh believe me I did contact the rescue and they thought it could be from the change in diet because when Edson was at the rescue he was not eating much hay or drinking.  But we now think there is some physical reason for this. We know nothing about his past but I’m sure he was not fed properly. He probably never got hay. We all agree it was most likely something in his unknown past.  The peeing in the xpen we really don’t think is marking. Vet doesn’t either.  He simply cannot hold it for some reason.  This really didn’t start until 3 weeks after I first got him. It’s such a large amount of pee that this makes sense from the amount of water he is drinking. But who knows.

[Scarlet_Rose]

Poor Edson! Don’t feel bad about the broccoli, you’re taking steps to get him better and bless you for doing so! Hmm, high calcium levels, make sure not to give him alfalfa or foods high in calcium. Here is a list of Calcium Content in Raw Vegetables, here is a bit of a read leading into calcuim content, discuss with your vet the max you should give him.

[JK]

Thanks for those links.  He’s getting only timothy hay and greens on the low end for calcium.  The vet did go over his diet and we only had to make a minor change, that being the broccoli. Once again, it must be from his unknown past!  Thanks for the info.

[Scarlet_Rose]

No problem! It can be hard to know what happened in his past and how he was treated and what he was fed and all.  But it sounds like it’s going to all be O.K. for him. He is one lucky bun!

[osprey]

Wow, poor Edson.  I hope these dietary changes help him feel like a new bunny.  May I ask which vet he saw?  I always try to keep up with the bunny savvy vets in the Bay Area.  I am fortunate that we live near Adobe Animal Hospital, but it good to know about other options too.

 

[JK]

The vet is Dr. Ken Bacon and Dr. Lenkes at the Central Marin Cat & Exotic Hospital.

[osprey]

I have heard good things about Dr. Lankes, and she does some volunteer work for the rescue I work with.  Keeping my fingers crossed for you and Edson.

 

[BinkyBunny]

OH wow, what a saga here. I sure hope everything turns out okay with Edson! Regarding e.cuniculi. It is estimatedt that 1 in 4 rabbits has it or at least will test positive for it. The thing is, even if your bunny tested positive for it, but that doesn’t mean that the symptoms he’s having would be a result of it. And since most of the treatments FOR e.cuniculi can cause liver damage, they wouldn’t add that medication as a “just in case” med.

My understanding though is that e.cuniculi can affect and shed via the kidneys, and that sometimes it can be the only symptom, but for the most part other symptoms will be present. But the hardest part is that zero symptoms can also be present. A very tricky disease. Some bunnies never suffer, and just seem to be carriers. Like with Rucy – she has tested positive for e.cuniculi (which she got from my other bunny Bailey) and Rucy has zero symptoms and her titer levels are very low, so the vet said that that means that she’s been exposed, but it doesn’t mean that she will ever develop the disease.

Anyway, I am sending healthy heal vibes Edson’s way. Keep us updated.

[Gravehearted]

oo I’m so glad they were able to do tests and figure out what’s going on. It sounds pretty overwhelming, especially since he’ll have to have the other test this week too. I am glad he has such a loving home and a family willing to make sure he’s getting the best care. I hope the poor lil guy doesn’t have kidney stone, but far better that then kidney failure. sending lots of good healing wishes Edison’s way.

[JK]

Thanks all of you for your advice and encouraging words.  We are off for xrays this morning.  I just hope all this going to the vet doesn’t add more stress which I’m sure it does. I’ll keep you posted!

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Just catching up again-phew what a saga indeed!

I second that-don’t feel bad about the broccoli, it is a rabbit safe veggie; Just not in his case.

*HUGE vibes* Keep us posted!!

[JK]

Another update – Well Edson was at the vet all day.  I’m thinking of renaming him Trooper because he has been stuck with needles and prodded and carted around now for 2 days and he is sooo good! Anyway the x-rays showed nothing, no kidney stones or anything else!  That’s good. They drew more blood for the e.cuniculi test.  At this point the vet is consulting with an internist to see if there’s anything else to check.He’s a bit stumped but that blood test may show something but that test won’t be back for a couple days.  So more waiting…

[Scarlet_Rose]

Maybe it’s diabetes?  I am not terribly familiar with it in rabbits, but I assume they run the usual blood-glucose tests for it on rabbits.  Well, my fingers are crossed.  I was going to ask, does he have a salt or mineral lick in the cage?  That will also make them drink an excessive amount of water and should be taken out of the cage as they are unnecessary.

[JK]

No salt or any kind of licks in his cage,  only timothy hay and greens in the pm and pellets in the am.  I spent $250 on blood work so I assume they tested for diabetes but I will ask.  There is also a very very slight chance he’s just psycho about drinking water kinda like kids sucking their thumbs or hair twirling or some other habit.  Maybe due to the fact he didn’t get enough water in his past.  Jeez I wish he could talk!

[Gravehearted]

sending lots of good thoughts, it sounds like they’re making progress toward figuring out what’s going on. I hope they’ll have some answers for your soon.

[babybunsmum]

wow i’m so glad they’ve ruled out several possiblilities!  he’s a trooper for sure!  i would think they’d of checked the diabetes angle since its about his high water consumption (i had a family cat that was diabetic & excessive water drinking was what tipped the vet off instantly).  good that you’re going to ask to be sure tho.  yup… it’d be GREAT if he could talk.  poor guy!  good thing he has you to look out for him

[JK]

More test results – HELP!  This is becoming a real stumper!  The e.cuniculi blood test came out negative.  Great!  As I said before the vet is a bit stumped.  Edson does not have regular diabetes as his blood sugar is normal although the vet mentioned looking into diabetes insipidus.  Haven’t researched that yet. Now they want to do another urine test, this time a culture where they swab the urine and see if any bacteria is growing.  Because his urine is so diluted with the vast quantity of water he is drinking, the standard urine test did not show any infection.  If the culture does not turn up anything, they are talking about doing a hormone assay, which is experimental, which compares a normal bun’s hormones with Edson’s to compare values.  This other bun would be Dr. Lenke’s bun.  If that doesn’t show anything they want to do a water deprivation test which the vet admits makes him nervous and it stresses the kidney and could make him really sick!  Also, the vet wants me to try Pedialyte for a couple days because if he is craving salt then he’d get it from the Pedialyte and things might stabilize.  I actually may have that wrong. Can’t quite remember the reason now. Edson is such a happy guy, eats well, affectionate, social etc. I hate to put him through all this except for the urine culture. God knows how much more $$$ this will be and risky and experimental.  My husband says no way and I am starting to agree. What do you guys think, especially from the experienced rabbit people?  Thanks.

[Sarita]

I think my question to the vet is if he does have this particular diabetes is there a way to control it? How is that done, what would the costs be?

Can he confer with another rabbit experienced vet on this to see if they have any ideas or perhaps is there another rabbit experienced vet that you can get a second opinion from?

Those would be my next 2 routes. Of course getting a second opinion is going to require more costs.  But some vets will confer at no costs.

I would really want alot more information before I put my rabbit through more tests where even my vet has concerns and it is experimental.

[babybunsmum]

like sarita, i’d want to know… what would knowing for sure that it *is* this certain type of diabetes help with?  is there treatment for it and what would it involve?  this is from a not-so-experienced rabbit person, but a fellow pet decision-maker.  its good that Edson is otherwise a happy guy.  since it seems he’s not in immediate danger (based on all the tests you’ve had done so far) i think it’s prudent that you’re waiting & getting more info to make an informed decision.

[JK]

The vet has spoken to an internist and those were his thoughts.  I am looking up diabetes insipidus and I’m getting really worried that this is what he has even though it is rare.  He’s doomed if it is as there is no treatment. I’m leaning more towards ruling this out first but I don’t know.

[Sarita]

Since there doesn’t seem to be a cure for the diabetes insipidus there could be no reason to put him through the tests other than to know so I would definitely not do that. I always say it’s better to know but in this instance it seems like even knowing won’t do any good if he has it since they cannot control it and the tests are too stressful.

Let us know what the culture says and if the pedialyte helps too. I hope that the culture will tell you something too.

[JK]

I know I agree.  Thanks.

[Beka27]

this is a tough thing.  knowing what the problem is called, is not going to help it go away necessarily.  and if that’s an experimental test… i’m guessing there’s probably no cure for what they’re looking for… yet.  hence the experiments to gather data.  i would probably not get a second opinion b/c that doctor would just end up redoing all the tests you’ve already had done b/c each one has to "rule things out" for themselves.  i would first ask, like the others said… if there’s anything that might fix the problem before doing more tests.  if you can do medication or something, that may be your best (and most cost-efficient)way to handle this.  good luck.  and i do not blame you for being skeptical at all.  you need to do what’s best for you, your family (your wallet) and for Edson.  let us know what you decide to do.

[JK]

Now I have all these questions!  Why would Pedialyte be tried for a couple days?  How could that solve anything long term?  I’ll ask tomorrow.  And now I am wondering why they didn’t do a urine culture along with the standard urine test.  I guess it’s a process of elimination but it seems like I am already having to subject the little guy to more tests than necessary when they could have all been done at the same time.  Ugh.

[Sarita]

I am just like you when I talk to the vet – I can get very overwhelmed especially when it’s something as complicated as this. I always try to take notes but I don’t always understand what I’ve written. And many times I cannot spell what the vet is talking about since I’m not familiar with the word.

You did mention you weren’t quite positive what the pedialtye was for so maybe you can just call him for clarification on this.

I’m not sure why he didn’t do the culture and analysis at the same time other than perhaps he hoped the urinalysis would show him what he needed to know – that may always be the first step in urine problems – but I’m not 100% sure of the protocol for these things or the process of elimination as you mentioned.

[JK]

I’ve already talked to him twice!!!  I can’t bear to call him again. I’ll just write all my questions down and ask when I see him tomorrow.  I just didn’t ask much about the diabetes insipidus because he doesn’t have the regular diabetes so I was more concerned about writing down all these other things.  Now of course I’m convinced he has this after reading all about it on the web. (My husband is now accusing me of being an internet addict (which I definitely am) and jumping to conclusions.) Well if he read what I am reading he might change his tune. The problem is with the first urine test the pee was sooooo diluted it showed nothing so I guess that makes sense to do a different test but jeez it seems like a vet would know that that might be the case and do the culture too. You guys are my therapy!  It just feels good to talk to someone about this!  Thanks.

[BinkyBunny]

Wow, well this is sure educational.  Unfortunately, at your bunny’s expense. I am so sorry you and Edson (and your family) have to go through this.  Hopefully you will have more answers tomorrow, and I know getting a second opinion would send your wallet to the moon. 

You can try asking Dana Krempels from All.Experts.com.   She is very rabbit savvy resource (EDITED HERE because I said she was a vet before), She answers within a few days at the the latest.   You don’t have to be a member of All.Experts, anyone can just ask a question.  You do have to supply your email so you can be notified when she answers the question.  I have never received spam from them.

I went to her section and clicked on the "ask question" for you – so here’s the link  http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=4&expID=35789&catID=703 so you can ask any questions.  Be sure to include what already has been done and the resultsI

If I were in your shoes, I probably wouldn’t have my bunny go through the "experimental" tests especially if they were stressful, unless my bunny’s life was at risk and if there were any helpful treatments that would result from experimental tests. 

I’ve been in situations before where I have had to ask myself "Is this a good idea?… is it worth the stress for the rabbit?"  And so many times I will factor in my vet’s opinion.  I just ask them…"what would you do if this was your animal companion?"  And they always tell me what they would do.   That doesn’t mean I have to follow that, but it does help me factor in an opinion I value.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I’m so sorry this is not going well…

Here is alink on diabetes insipidus…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetes_insipidus

I’m really sorry for him but of he is feeling well that is very good!! *VIBES*…I would think that although it may be experimental as the link says, the water deprivation is what characterized the diesease so it may be worth the test…I think DI is the diabetes that is like diabetes type two and treatable, but of course go over with your vet what the outcomes/prognosises wll be before you spend tonnes on vet treatemnt…Give your bunny nose rubs for me…Is there anyway we can help you with these vet bills?? I’m almost thinking they could be astronomical!!!

[Sarita]

Dana Krempel’s is a good source but she’s NOT a vet – she does have a multitude of experience with rabbits and I have asked her questions on this all experts before. It wouldn’t hurt to ask her though if she has had any experience with this or know of anyone that has. She always give good and thoughtful advice.

[JK]

Thanks guys for all your advice and comments and even asking about helping with vet bills!!! Koaneeandkahlua, you are so unbelievable and sweet to even ask! Thanks so much for even the thought but I have no problem financially other than it’s December and  you know what kind of bills we all have this month and it’s not exactly what I want to dole out right now for an animal.!!!! It’s more that I don’t want to put Edson thru anything experimental and I’m sure it could be hundreds of dollars, if not more. I will check out Dana Krempel just to see. I’ll keep you posted…

[JK]

ANOTHER update!  Went to the vet for a second urine sample and lo and behold they could not get one.  Edson had peed in his carrier – poor guy I woke him up from his morning nap and did not put him in his litter box so we would have no trouble getting the sample. Then we waited another 2 hours and they did not get a sample because they waited too long to get it and once again he had already peed.  So after all this frustration Dr. Lankes decided to heck with the urine culture and put him on antibiotics (Cipro) and probiotics (Probiacin) to see if this might have any effect.  I didn’t want to wait any longer or have to come back AGAIN so I was actually ok with this decision. She would not usually do this without seeing that indeed there was a bladder infection but at this point it was worth a try. Another chapter in this long and frustrating book!

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Oh my goodness two hours at the vets!?! That’s terribly long and I’m soo sorry you don’t know yet…Hopefully these antibiotics clear things up! Keep us posted!

[Sarita]

Cipro is very strong stuff – definitely watch to make sure he eats taking this stuff. This is what they use for anthrax patients so that tells you how strong this stuff is. I’ve used this on 2 of my rabbits and I think one of the side effects might be stomach cramping and that’s not to say that will happen with Edison, I just want you to make sure he is eating. I hope this works for Edison – I can tell both you and your vet are frustrated.

[JK]

Grrreeat just what I want to hear. I’ll watch him like a hawk.  I heard from that Dana Krempels already and she said some very interesting things.  She said she has seen rescue rabbits drink huge amounts of water before and then has seen it taper off after a few weeks or even months. She says it is possible that some rabbits have not had much water, if any at all, in their past and perhaps they drink so much because of that or even because the body is trying to get rid of toxins!  Boy that would be the greatest answer of all! I updated her with the antibiotics to see what she says.  She is a great resource. Thanks for that.

[Sarita]

That is interesting! I’d love to hear any updates from Dana that she sends. Comforting vibes to you and continued healing vibes to Edison (I just love that name).

[JK]

Of course I will let you know what Dana says. I think I like her so much because she is saying what I want to hear!

[Scarlet_Rose]

All I have to say is poor Edson! My best to the fella and I hope it all gets sorted out. I really think I would put a stop to the testing, it’s making both him and you miserable and you’ve eliminated pretty much everything as the cause with a few exceptions of course. His quality of life is good otherwise and like was mentioned, it could just be hoarding because of his past.  He didn’t know when he would get it again. Hang in there!

[Beka27]

i am wondering… if you were to reduce the amount of water he gets (an ounce or two less each week) would that help it to taper off?  would he start to crave less water?

[babybunsmum]

i have my fingers crossed for you & Edson that this is a case of him just drinking lots to detoxify.  or possibly for hoarding until he realizes he’s got a dependable water source?  i’m sure you’re hoping to put this behind you soon & enjoy your furry friend.  glad you’ve found help & support here.  ((((((vibes))))))

[JK]

Dana Krempels update:  Jeez this is becoming a long book!  Dana says she thinks it is a wise decision that the vet put Edson on antibiotics in this particular case.  She also says Cipro is a good choice. This makes me feel better. She says she has bunny with slightly wacko kidney values and drinks a lot and he has been doing fine for 2 years with no signs of deterioration.  She’s a very cool lady…and very prompt.

[Scarlet_Rose]

Wow, well that’s great you’ve gotten some wonderful support and advice, especially when it seems to be such a mystery what the cause is.  I am definately going to put this discussion in the FAQ’s section.

[Gravehearted]

I’m really sorry that you and Edson have been going through such trials with all of this – but am glad he’s getting good vet care and all the good advice everyone (including Dana) has shared.

[JK]

Edson update:  I THINK the little man is starting to drink less water!  Well when I say less I mean from 48 oz to 30 oz.  That’s pretty encouraging!  He still has one week left of antibiotics which by the way he loves!  I thinks he’s a drug addict.  He knocks me down and tries to pull the syringe out of my hands to get that stuff, same with the probiotics! It’s quite comical. He’s had no bad reaction to the Cipro.  Maybe there’s hope yet!

[Sarita]

That’s great news! I’m glad he hasn’t had any negative reactions to the cipro and that he loves it – that is too funny.

Sending continued healing vibes to Edson and thank you for the update.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I am so glad to hear he’s doing better! Too funny that he loves his meds-makes it alot easier!!

[Beka27]

since he’s drinking less water, are you having better luck with him holding his pee until he’s in his box or at least in his cage?  so, the medications are just a temporary thing?  if they work, does the vet say he’ll have to continue taking them from now on?

[JK]

Well I’m a little paranoid about letting him out of the xpen (which is attached to his cage) but yesterday I did and I let him snoop for a few minutes and then put him in his litter box to pee.  He has not had any accidents in the cage EVER and no accidents in the xpen for quite a few days now.  We are putting him in the cage at night only as he peed on the bed in his xpen before. The medication is for a potential bladder infection which can cause excessive drinking.  Like I said in an earlier post the vet didn’t do a culture because they missed the pee sample twice so not to stress out poor bun even further  they prescribed antibiotics.  I’ll see in another week if he’s drinking even less water and if so then maybe the drugs are working.  The drugs are only for an infection and only for 2 weeks.

[babybunsmum]

great news that he’s drinking a little less!  fingers crossed that the meds continue to cause improvements.  good thing he likes his meds so much… thats pretty funny.  baby was not that impressed with her meds even tho they were strawberry flavored.  she fought me every time… silly goose.  give edson a head pet for me!

[Scarlet_Rose]

I’m glad to hear the meds seem to be working!

[JK]

Since my last post on the 14th things have gone down hill slightly.  Edson has peed twice now right under the gate to his cage that opens up into the xpen.  I can’t figure out why he’s doing this.  His litter box is literally inches away from the door so even if he is having trouble "holding it" he should be able to make it a few inches!  He’s actually back to drinking more water after I just said I thought he was drinking less!  I wonder if he’s really thirsty from the antibiotics????My husband is on them at the moment and he says he’s drinking more water. I’m feeling a little discouraged as I truly had convinced myself that maybe he really had a bladder infection but now I really don’t think so. At this point my hopes for this guy to get free run of the house have dwindled. There’s really nothing more to do because I am not going through more tests. I guess things either will have to resolve on their own or they won’t. Sorry but I am getting discouraged especially after I thought  things were looking up!  I hate that Edson’s going through this.

[Scarlet_Rose]

I am very sorry you are getting discouraged. Well, it has only been about a month now since you have had him. Rabbits can take up to several months to adjust so you just might want to try and re litter-train him and confine to a smaller space in which to run if it is behavior related. If it is something psychological, it will probably take him a while to learn that he doesn’t have to “hoard” water.

[JK]

You’re right.  I guess I need to be a little more patient.  Thanks.

[MooBunnay]

I’ve been following along with the conversation – though haven’t added much because I’m not familiar with the problem that Edson is having – but as Scarlet Rose said – he may just need a bit of time to recover from a traumatical past. A couple just very basic things I recommend for bunnies that may be stressed is keeping them on very strict schedules as far as feeding times, and in your case, medicine times. Also, letting him rearrange his cage how he “wants it” and keeping things that way may help him feel secure. If its stress related – a set schedule, and giving him some time to have his surroundings feel familiar can really help a lot!

[Scarlet_Rose]

Hey no problem, and I totally understand you getting frustrated, here you have this wonderful bun and the poor guy has this problem. If you need to vent, by all means do. Just try to understand the little fuzzy fella and to keep your stress down, confine him to an x-pen that has a drop cloth, linoleum or sheet covering on the floor for easy cleaning until he is over this little trouble he’s having and is a good little bun who uses the litterbox.

I just had an idea, does the litterbox have high sides? I am wondering if he has trouble with that and if a litterbox with a low entrance side would help. Does he have any trouble jumping at all and has his spine been checked for injury? If it was injured it could cause this problem too. Their spines are really fragile and just them twisting to get away could break or injure it as like you said he has an unknown history.

[JK]

Hi – I have plastic under a big sheet just for these accidents. The litter box has low sides.  He has absolutely no problem at all getting in.  He actually takes flying leaps out of it sometimes when I come in the room!  He had xrays so I know he is perfect spine wise.  Also, he could care less about rearranging things but I never do.  When I go in his area to clean up he follows me around and jumps up on my legs.  He is extremely nosey and a bit of a beggar.  He has no interest in toys whatsoever and could care less if I move anything.  Everything though is always put back exactly how it was.  I also have a schedule for feeding and keep to it. Pellets at 5:30am.  Meds at 6am & 6pm.  Greens at 4pm! So there you have it. Thanks for all your comments.  It does feel good to vent!!!

[JK]

Well we have determined why Edson is peeing in the xpen.  My husband was working in the office today and Edson was sound asleep and apparently peed in his sleep. This makes sense because he is always asleep on his stoop and sure enough there has been pee below it.  Now this has only started happening since the 14th so this is a new development.  I called the vet and he really said there is nothing more to do than this risky water deprivation test which I am NOT going to do. He also said that there is no real test for diabetes insipidus.  I am all of a sudden not too confident this vet really knows what to do.  I may have to call Dr. Scheenstra and see if she has any other ideas but I don’t want to go through the same testing.  Sorry to rant but this is so dang frustrating as I have this incredible rabbit and I have to limit his freedom until this resolves, if ever.

[BinkyBunny]

I have never heard of a bunny peeing in his sleep. That seem extremely unusual. I am so sorry you have to go through thiis! I sure wish I knew more about diabetes insipidus, so I could be more help. A good rabbit savvy vet is Dr. Harvey but she’s now in Hayward with Chabot Vet, so I know that’s a bit of a drive for a second opinion.  You could check with SaveABunny to see if there is another vet they may recommend.

[JK]

They mainly use Dr. Scheenstra.  I know …this is sure an extremely weird case.   Thanks.

[BinkyBunny]

Well, I’ll  put this on my list of things to ask Dr. Harvey about next time I send her my "list" of questions.   It also might  interesting to find out what Dana Krempels thinks about this latest tidbit.

[Scarlet_Rose]

Poor you and poor Edson! I really, really hope there is a light at the end of this adventure where you can truly enjoy each others company. Is he getting urine scald at all from this? If not, you just might want to keep an eye on that. I am also beginning to wonder, like for special needs bunnies if Edson would be better off having a diaper. I would really hate to put him through that though.

[JK]

Thanks for asking Dr. Harvey about this.  I’d be very interersted in hearing what she has to say. No urine scald at all, he’s totally dry.  That’s so funny that you mentioned a diaper because I actually thought about that.  Great! Now I need to buy Pampers for my rabbit! I just can’t bear that unless things get way worse.  I think what I should do is when I see him going for his long nap, I should put him in his cage.  I HATE doing this but maybe just for now.

[Author]

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