More Pen-G Woes

[MimzMum]

So this was our fifth injection. After having taken everyone’s wonderful suggestions as to how to have a succesful jab…we almost thought we had done it this time. Then after hubby is walking away to dispose of the needle…down Mimzy’s back comes the meds, onto his blanket and everywhere! I had to hold him by his scruff to keep him from stepping in it (washed his feet just in case) and it took me hours to get his back clean.

I’m not even sure we’re getting medicine into him at this point. Should we even finish the round of injections? I’m afraid one of these times if it comes out again we won’t get it all and I’m scared to death he’s going to swallow some.

I’ve got a call into my vet to ask officially, but the substitute (my vet is taking care of dogs on the Yukon Quest) didn’t return my call today.

What do you guys think? Is there any point if we can’t do this correctly? He’s got a few days left of the oral antibiotic. He’s sneezing anyway, so I would guess it’s just not helping in any case.

I hate putting him (and me) through this. I can’t just pack him up and take him in for these every three days. (We’re 30 miles out, remember.) Also, we currently do not have a good running car. (Husband is limping our ‘trash truck’ back and forth to town until we can get our beater fixed.) God help us if we have to take him in for an emergency (or any of the other animals for that matter).

*slumps* I give up. *waves white flag*

[BinkyBunny]

Oh boy, what a pain. I wonder what is going on that it is not getting in or at least staying in. Do you think the needle is actually poking all the way through the skin? It just doesn’t make sense that it would come flowing out like that. Maybe keep it tented up after you’ve withdrawn the needle so it can’t escape out. ???

I still think you should keep trying to get it into him until you hear otherwise from the vet. Stopping antibiotics short is always a big no no, (same thing that can happen with humans can happen with animals, you can leave the “strong” bacteria behind by not finishing it out) so I’d say, stay on course, until you get hear back from a vet. Also, when you do hear back from him, you can tell him/her the problem with the Pen-g. They may decide to continue it longer if you feel you haven’t gotten enough in and hopefully they can offer some tips that will help finally get these injections in.

I was trying to find some instructions on video somewhere – like Youtube that may help with the injections. I’ll keep looking

[MimzMum]

Thanks BB. (((hugs))) I also was scoping some info tonight…look what I found:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/2009/10/Pus-abscess-missing-bicillin-1.htm

———
Expert: Dana Krempels, Ph.D. – 10/25/2009

Question
QUESTION: Hi Dana
Back in 24-25/9/2009 I posted a question to you regarding my bunny who developed an abscess in her left cheek. Here’s an update on her condition : after multiple lancing and flushing with no improvement to her condition (her appetite came and went and came back again), my vet finally conceded to prescribing Pen G (or bicillin). So far my bunny is reacting well to the injections and doing fine, althought the lump is still there. But at least she’s eating.

My question this time is: what do I do if I think I muck up a bicillin shot? I mean, I thought I got the needle in, injected the bicillin, but upon withdrawal of the needle, I noted white liquid on my bunny’s fur. I suspect maybe I didn’t push the needle far in enough but I’m not sure if I got some of the bicillin in or not at all. So should I give her another shot or wait till her next scheduled dose? I’m supposed to administer the shot every other day.

I can’t call my vet because her office is closed tomorrow. Please advice what I should do – if I give another shot immediately, would there be an overdose in case I got some in the first time? Or should I wait till the next day, or wait till the next scheduled shot in 48 hours?

Appreciate your help.
Amy

ANSWER: Dear Amy,

I’ve done this, too, and it’s frustrating. But to tell you the truth, it probably is not a complete disaster if she misses a shot. The Pen has a long “hang time” and it will probably be all right to wait until the next dose.

If you are dosing at 50,000IU/kg every 48 hours, note that this is the lower end of the dosage range, so even if you gave her a shot the very next day, instead of waiting 48 hours, she’s unlikely to suffer an overdose. Some vets give the shots once a *week*, though I am no fan of that. In my opinion, risking the tissue load of the drug and possibly allowing more resistant members of the population to proliferate isn’t a good idea.

What you should do, though, is wash the antibiotic off her fur as much as possible. Injectable Pen may not be stabilized as well as the oral penicillins, but they still are pretty stable, and you don’t want her licking it off her fur for all the reasons we don’t give oral penicillin to rabbits. Just rinse very well with water and pat and/or blow dry so she won’t be tempted to groom it off.

If she did lick a large amount of the Pen, consult your vet. This would not be good, and a Clostridium overgrowth could result that could be very dangerous.

But I would not worry too much about missing the shot. It’s not great, but it’s also not the end of the world.

Hope this helps.

Dana

———- FOLLOW-UP ———-

QUESTION: Thanks Dana, for your reply.

But being an over anxious bunny mummy, I gave my bun another shot the very next day, and another 24 hours later as per scheduled. So far she’s okay. But I didn’t clean off the Pen G from her fur like you said, I only wiped off what I could see (though not a thorough wash) and I think she licked some off. By the time I read your email, it was too late, she had already groomed herself pretty good. I don’t know how much she ingested. What is this “Clostridium overgrowth”?

Thanks again for being there to help.

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Answer
Dear Amy,

Just keep a close eye on your girl for any sign of runny stool, which is the worst you’d expect from an overdose or ingestion of penicillin in a rabbit. Penicillins, taken orally, will kill off much of the normal, beneficial bacterial flora in the intestine, but will not harm such potentially dangerous ones as Clostridium, which are related to those that cause things like tetanus and botulism. The ones that live in rabbit intestines, but are kept in check by the normal bacteria, also can produce toxins that cause enteritis, liver damage, and other dangerous problems. If the normal flora are killed off, the Clostridium can proliferate and “over grow.”

If you don’t have a good rabbit vet now, then find one here:

http://www.rabbit.org/vets

and call to let the vet know what happened. I doubt she’ll have an overdose problem, but you do want to be on the lookout just in case she got penicillin into her intestine that could cause a problem. Please see:

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html

since much of the treatment protocol for that is also effective for enteritis caused by oral penicillins. Of critical importance is to absorb the toxins produced by the harmful bacteria, if they are there. This is why we use Questran (cholestyramine resin), which must be given several hours away from other oral medications so as not to interfere with their activity.

Signs of Clostridium overgrowth may not appear immediately, and may take as long as ten days to develop. But if she got only a very small bit in her mouth and then never again, I am betting you won’t see a problem. Just be alert.

Hope this helps.

Dana

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———–

This poor girl did NOT clean all her bun’s Pen-G off, but there is no further discussion regarding how this case turned out. But it gives me hope that, even if we’re not getting the whole shot load in, we’re getting some of it and that helps.
And considering how thoroughly I wash, dry, wash, dry and wash and dry again (poor Mimz, but he’s so good about it until I try to get to anywhere underneath him) that I kind of doubt he’s going to have any problems. Plus this person didn’t seem to have their bun on a probiotic, which must help keep the tummy running better than to not have it just in case of ingestion.
Going to get some more of those. *nods*

If we have to have more shots, I’ll have to have the vet instruct me. This is frustrating my husband no end and I want to take that away from him. He has enough physical pain, he doesn’t need any more mental to go with it.

[BinkyBunny]

Perfect find Mimz!!! That is great info and I bet that will help put your mind at ease. So I wonder if it’s the size of the needle…maybe it’s too small? And here I was worried it was too big! Now if we can just find a clear cut video of how to inject, that may be the last piece to this “solution” puzzle.

Of course, you’ll have it all figured out when it’s all over, and you’ll never need to inject any meds ever again….isn’t that they way it goes?

[MimzMum]

Well, I got a call this morning and the doctor told us to discontinue the Pen-G shots. She is agreed that it sounds like we’re not getting any into him and it’s frustrating and hurting him more than it’s helping. When my regular vet returns at the end of the Quest, we’ll ask her what kind of adjunct therapy we may need if any.
I think I’ll still try poking an orange or two though. It can’t hurt to learn to do this and if I ever need to even do sub-q fluids, I should be practiced.

And it’s probably a good thing too, since it looks like my hubby is going to need some extensive dental surgery soon and not only will I have to let him take some time off to recoup from that but I’ll have to be doing more driving and town runs by myself for awhile. Not fun during snow time, especially with breakup coming on.

*sigh* Can’t say it’s a dull life, by any means. *shrugs*

[Monkeybun]

*hugs* Sounds like you need some snuggles up there where santa lives.. poor MM and poor Mimzy

[BinkyBunny]

Where well else can you have a vet who doubles as a dog sled racer! I am glad though that you did get some confirmation about this from the vet and hopefully then when your vet does come back you can figure out a new plan. From your other post, sounds like Mimz is getting his “moxie” back.

And ugh….dental surgery for your hubby, sounds like a theme going on here with humans and bunnies alike. Happy healing and safe non-slippery driving during the snow break up. That is no fun!

[RabbitPam]

MM,
Your orange just called. It says it’s feeling better and you can stop poking it now.

My deepest sympathies to your hubby. I just broke a tiny piece off a back tooth while sticking to my weight watchers diet and eating a chewy bar of theirs. It’s been such an awful, stressful week of things going wrong that I almost cried. Now I am ignoring it. Doesn’t hurt, but a dental bill would. Sigh.

[Author]

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