Mini lop GI issues- on and off liquid leakage for 2+ months- what to do??

[HopsiclesMommy]

Hello all,

I have been following this forum and many others since I have adopted my little baby 2 years ago to learn more and provide the best care for him. 

Unfortunately my baby Hopsicle who is a neutered male, lop about 2.5 years of age, has been having issues that don’t seem to go away despite mine and my vet’s best efforts. A little over 2 months ago, at his regular vegetable time, I fed him organic celery. Even though he had had celery before, it is not one of his usual vegetables (which are parsley, cilantro, kale and collard greens) and this was the first time he was fed a vegetable labeled “organic”, i don’t know if that makes a difference. The next morning he showed signs of diarrhea. We took him to the vet (whom I trust fully), and she wanted us to cut his pellets/ fruit treats/ greens and just feed him hay for a week along with Benebac. However the next day he got worse, and our vet decided to put him on SMZ for 2 weeks (Reglan was added later cause he didn’t seem to want to eat or drink). After those 2 weeks, he seemed to be better with no issues and was off of medication. 

Unfortunately just a day after we cut his antibiotics/Reglan, he started to leave puddles of brownish water all over his cage. At this point we had no clue if this was pee or poo. Since his diarrhea earlier was very very mushy and mucousy but still had substance to it, we thought it was pee (I feel so stupid now for thinking it was pee). And the vet not having seen these puddles Hopsicle was leaving, thought maybe he hurt his back and had trouble peeing so he was dribbling. In the mean time I must say, X-rays, ultrasound and fecal tests were run on my baby. The fecal tests were negative, the ultrasound didn’t show any signs of kidney blockage and X-ray didn’t show slurry, just gas which was expected due to his GI issues. At this point Hopsicle was prescribed Metacam to ease a possible pain affecting his pee habits. That week he didn’t get any better. Left brown puddles everywhere. We still didn’t know what was wrong, because he was eating and drinking normally, and still produced normal fecals (I couldn’t see cecals because he always eats them before we can see). After another bout of really messy bottom and brown puddles I picked him up to clean and realized he was oozing the liquid from his anus. After another vet appointment, we went back to the bland food regimen of just hay with some romaine along with benebac. Nothing changed for another week. Then it seemed to get worse (increased amount of puddles). So we went back to SMZ… Which seemed like it was helping, but overall, he was still leaving puddles everywhere everyday. The amount would change but still he had no mess free days. When it seemed like his eating and drinking was deteriorating (he had lost some weight at this point), our vet was concerned about hurting his kidneys so she switched Hopsicle from SMZ to another antibiotic (i can’t remember its name) that is gentler on the kidneys. So baby bun is back on antibiotics, Benebac, Reglan AND in addition critical care (to make sure he is getting enough quality nutrition) along with timothy hay. 

At this point he acts completely normal. Eats well, drinks relatively well. Plays, and acts social. But we still have a mess everyday. The amount of liquid is less than before but it is still more than it should ever be. He still has the broken little feces as if he has GI statis followed by normal poops and back to little broken poops. The liquid seems to come whenever he is leaving fecal or cecal matter, so it is not about one or the other. He is literally oozing liquid while pooping.

I am very sad and frustrated and feel defeated. We have tried a whole lot of different things, and I am sure it hurt Hopsicle more than it helped along the way, but I don’t know what to do at this point. One thing our vet never tried, that I have been reading about is questran/metranidazole for possible parasite or clostridium infection, possibly because his fecal tests were negative. 

What should I do next? Nothing seems to be helping…

[Sarahsoofee]

GI stasis can also be a symptom of an illness since its been going on for weeks. Rabbits can mask their pain and discomfort as they are prey animals. This explains his normal behavior. Maybe go to another rabbit savvy vet so you can get an alternative diagnosis as the vet you had isn’t successful with curing whatever your bunny has.

[Bam]

He seems to have gotten a lot better, and that’s great. A healthy and diverse gastro-intstinal microbiota can take months to restore. Hay is especially important. Hay, more hay and pellets with a high fiber-content and maybe a re-intro of greens one at a time so you can see if there’s some particular vegs his tummy can’t deal with. (I have a bun who can’t have carrots or he gets poopy butt.)

Questran is just for the safe binding of and out-transport of bacterial toxins from the intestine. It doesn’t kill any bacteria. I ‘m not sure, but if there were still active bacteria producing toxins in his gut, I think he would be a lot sicker.

[HopsiclesMommy]

I am considering getting the opinion of another vet, just worried that bunbun will have to go through another set of Xrays/ultrasounds etc. 

Is there anything to consider regarding the different types of hay (which one is ok)? I know Alfalfa is only for babies due to high protein content, but I was wondering if Orchard hay is ok. I have given him some and he clearly likes Orchard more than Timothy but I am very scared of introducing something new to his diet given his sensitive GI condition.

Thank you all very much for the responses!!

[Bam]

Orchard hay is fine. More or less all grassy hay is fine. There’s oat hay and rye grass (not related to the ceral rye), botanical hay and meadow hay – all of it is fine. Timothy is good and healthy, but if the bun won’t eat enough of it, it can be healthy all it wants, it’still won’t do any good just lying there uneaten.

It’s just alfalfa you should avoid, it’s not an actual grass and it’s very rich and high in calcium, so not suitable for an adult bun. You can introduce it slowly, but generally there are no restrictions on hay like there are on pellets and greens for sensitive buns.

Oxbow has pressed haycubes, some buns find those yummy. Long-stranded hay is of course better, but the cubes can very well be used as a supplement for extra fiber.

There are other probiotics than benebac you can try, I give my buns a type for humans sprinkled on food. There’s no hard evidence that a probiotic will help a bunny tummy, but Medirabbit says yuou can try, it’s harmless, the worst case scenario is that you get zero effect because the probiotic bacteria/yeast is killed by the stomach acid before it reaches the intestines. Some probiotics have brewer’s yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae), my vet sells one of those (Fiberplex paste), but that exact brand might not be available in the USA. It’s used to restore a healthy gut microbiota in buns and other small herbivores.

[HopsiclesMommy]

Thank you for the reply bam!

Hopsicle woke up a little better today. Still had dried brown liquid marks in the cage yet the amount seemed quite less than before. I put an additional water cup in his cage with some manuka honey in it to encourage him to drink more and gave him a small piece of kale yesterday. Our vet insists on Romaine since it is easier on the gut for most buns, but it seems to give my little bun the runs. The last time he had a piece of Romaine (last week) he had his worst episode of diarrhea so I am going to stay away from it for now. So far so good with kale.

I looked into Fiberplex, but it is not available in the US. Critical care has yeast culture in it. I hope it is enough for the little bun.

Has anyone heard of / used Digestive Supplement tablets by Oxbow?? I was thinking about getting them as a supplement. The ingredients are: Timothy grass, barley flour, oat groat flour, cane molasses, flax seed meal, chamomile, fenugreek seed, brewers dried yeast, dried chicory root (source of inulin), ginger root, xanthan gum, hydrolyzed yeast, fat product, mixed tocopherols, rosemary extract. It claims to help with digestive issues.

[HopsiclesMommy]

We woke up to another episode of poopy butt today. It makes me very sad, because even though we give Hopsicle butt baths, he still constantly tries to groom the matted area and pulls his fur out. He had a bald butt for a month and the new hair just started to grow. I was hoping he would be in the clear by now.

Besides the fur issue, his gut doesn’t seem to be moving despite the metacloprimide regimen he is on. He gets 0.5ml every 12 hrs, but as it gets closer to his next dose, he either stops pooping or produces tiny broken poops. Right after his dose, he poops these stuck together poops (not with hair strings more like collided in the bowels). I am not sure if his dose is not enough or if there is something else I should be doing to get his gut moving. He is eating a lot of hay, and I give him tummy massages when I am home and not sleeping, but it seems to be the worst either when I wake up in the morning or when I check him after I get back from work.

Any help is much appreciated!

[Bam]

It seems like it gets worse when he’s inactive, and physical exercise does help the intestines move, so that’s at least not totally in- explicable. But so tiresome. Sometimes it’s recommended to put a bun on a hay/and-water-only diet for three months to restore a gut that’s really out of balance. Such a radical dietary change should of course be discussed with a vet first.
You can put bag balm or diaper rash cream or even a bit of Vaseline on his hairless spots, just to protect his skin from moisture or wet feces.
I have no personal experience with Oxbow’s digestive supplement, but Oxbow is a high quality brand that I trust. The ingredients sound good.

[Fuzzybuns]

My mini lop started having the same issues at the beginning of November in 2015 after the worst GI stasis she has ever had.  After multiple trips to my rabbit savvy vets Dr Clarkson and Dr Poliakof (Bless them both), Dr Poliakof suggested I try a food trial to rule out food allergies.  She said she had treated at least 20 bunnies over the years that developed food allergies.  I was really getting desperate so I gave it a try.  I have found that my baby is allergic to Timothy, Oat hay, and most the greens that you would normally give a bunny.  I’m still trying different greens for her and so far she can safely eat orchard grass hay, romaine lettuce and cilantro.  I honestly can’t believe how much better she is and I have been able to take her off the meds she was on. 

[HopsiclesMommy]

My vet mentioned that around that time (November 2015) all of a sudden she had several bunnies come in with similar issues that was linked to a brand of hay. When I told her I replaced Hopsicle’s hay shortly after he started having issues thinking it could’ve been tainted hay, she said “good, use Oxbow”, so I didn’t think about it again. But you might have had a bad batch of hay as well.

I’m trying different types of hay with my bun right now. He seems to prefer Orchard over Timothy. But it could be that the Timothy I got was 1st/2nd cutting so full of long stems, whereas the Orchard hay is 3rd/4th cutting so very leafy. I looked on Amazon to see if I can get Botanical, Meadow, Rye Grass or Oat hay, and it seems like Oxbow is the only company that provides such varieties (except Rye grass – couldn’t find that anywhere), but the reviews for some suggested that the quality decreased over the years whereas the price went up. Does anyone know of any suppliers for these variety of hays other than Oxbow??

Apart from all that, little bun Hopsicle, woke up to a dry butt this morning, first time in two weeks. YAY. So I will keep giving him a mix of Orchard/Timothy hay with some fresh Kale along with some juice in his water. He is still on his antibiotics + metacloprimide + critical care & benebac. I talked to my vet last night and she suggested going forward, to help his gut, administer metacloprimide (0.5 ml) every 8 hrs instead of 12 and start him on Papaya tablets. She mentioned the papain enzyme helps with gut motility and digestion (but not hairballs it turns out). I got some Nature’s Bounty papaya tablets (for human consumption) for now, and ordered Sherwood Digestive Support which was the only product with papaya for rabbits that I could find on Amazon. There is a Japanese product (it says Oxbow) as well but I couldn’t trust.

[Fuzzybuns]

Considering that Stewie has been fine when BB has not, it was not the hay but my rabbit.  I got the hay from a company that bales hay for horses and other livestock.  I tried a small bag of Timothy from Kaytee, I think, so I could see if she would be better or worse  with a different hay.  She was far worse and Stewie was fine. I really do hope you find a solution soon.  It can be really stressful trying to get it figured out.  So I feel for you.

[HopsiclesMommy]

It turns out it was too soon to celebrate. When I came home from work I found Hopsicle with a wet butt, oh well. But his litter box was full of nice poops and his water bowl was empty.

One thing I noticed was that his pee was a pinkish color. Is that because of the cranberry juice I have been putting in his water?

[Bam]

Bunny pee is frequently red or pink or orange from plant pigments that oxidize when the pee meets the air. It’s perfectly normal and healthy. Can look scary though, but in general, normal healthy bunny pee comes in many colors.

It sounds like you are starting to see some real progress now, even if his butt was wet when you came home. Yay!!!

[HopsiclesMommy]

Thanks Bam! Yes Hopsicle does seem to be getting better. He has been leaving softer (not diarrhea soft) and smellier poops recently, I am thinking now that he is eating better, the Critical Care regimen is too rich at this point. I am going to reduce and stop the CC regimen.

[JackRabbit]

HopsiclesMommy — Have you discussed doing a round of something to treat for possible unidentified parasite? Has the vet mentioned acquired megacolon (not all symptoms match, but some dol.

[HopsiclesMommy]

Honestly after the stool tests came negative our vet ruled out the possibility of parasites. It does linger in my mind time to time, but when I asked our vet, she said the diarrhea would be more severe and wouldn’t be intermittent. I am thinking about bringing it up again our next visit, because even though the severity of it differs, Hopsicle still has one episode of brown or clear liquid leakage along with normal (not healthy normal but either a little soft of hard with wet surface) fecals and cecals. He still has days where he eats and drinks great and then days which he is not in the mood.

We did briefly talk about megacolon but Hopsicle never had the giant egg shaped fecals so I believe that was ruled out.

Another question I have is, how can I tell when he is gassy?? I do give him simethicone when he seems off, but I don’t know if he is gassy.

[Bam]

You can’t really be sure a bun is gassy, unless it’s a lot of gas: then the bun will sometimes press it’s tummy against the floor in a push-up like motion. I’ve seen it once with Bam. He was also letrhargic: When i put him down from having had him in my knee, he didn’t run away, he didn’t clean himself but immediately dropped to the floor and was still.

I can tell when my Yohio has gas, because of the smell =/ But the smell of course means the gas has escaped, the problem is when it can’t. Since simethicone is not absorbed by the body, you can give it on suspicion.

Revolution (selamectin), an ivermectin derivative, is an antiparasitic and anti-helminthic (de-wormer) that’s bunny safe. You can give it empirically, i e without determining the exact nature of parasites/worms. It’s prescription only, so you can discuss it with your vet – that’s of course always safest.

And here’s the warning we always give regarding anti-parasitics:

Do not under any circumstances give fipronil (Frontline) to a bunny. It’s deadly to rabbits.

(Not that you would, but many people might be reading the thread.) 

[HopsiclesMommy]

I will definitely ask about Revolution. Thank you!!

[HopsiclesMommy]

does topical selamectin treat anything other than fur mites?

[Bam]

Yes, it treats internal parasites as well. And ear-mites. Some types of ticks too. And scabies. It’s always applied topically. The preparation for kittens is suitable for bunnies. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selamectin

[HopsiclesMommy]

Hopsicle’s next vet appointment is next week, but until then I started giving him the digestive aids the doctor recommended with papain and other enzymes/herbs. He had back to back episodes of wet poops, not mushy or puddingy but literally hard poops covered in liquid and with discharge of brown liquid. Can it be the digestive aids (Sherwood Digestive Support)??

[HopsiclesMommy]

Hello all,

So here is a little update on my little bun. He has been off the antibiotics and a lower dose of metocloprimide for about 2 weeks now. He went through a whole week with no issues, so on his check up, our vet recommended starting him back on all the good stuff he has been missing out, aka veggies (bunbun has been on water and hay only diet for a while now). He seemed in good health with a little gas in his tummy, but he had lost a lot of weight, down to 3.8lbs from 5lbs. So he is also put on 1 Tbspoon pumpkin X2 daily to get his weight up and provide him fiber. He gets 0.5 ml metocloprimide once a day in the morning and 1 ml simethicone in the evening to help with his lazy and gassy gut. He is also on the Oxbow digestive aid tabs which the vet loved when I showed the ingredients to her.

Hopsicle was put on this new regimen of pumpkin, digestive tabs, meds slowly and one by one to monitor if any of them would give him the “runs” again. And when he was stable (yesterday) I gave him half a cup of kale, since romaine gave him bad diarrhea before. Kale is/was his favorite and he never used to have any issues with it. But unfortunately he couldn’t handle it and had a bout of liquid cecals after eating it.

At this point my question is how do I reintroduce veggies in his diet? Should I give kale another try in a couple of days or try something else completely? What veggies should I go for? He was fine with herbs/kale/collard greens/ green tops of root vegetables before he started having the gut issues.

Thank you!

[HopsiclesMommy]

And forgot to mention in a couple months, the vet is going to put him through preventative anti parasite treatment, but she wants to get his weight up first.

[Mimsy]

Maybe chat with your vet again about the pumpkin, perhaps that is too rich for him right now and then the additional greens pushes him over the top?

Have you tried alfalfa for fatting him up? Not sure if that would be easier on his tummy right now, but perhaps worth asking about.

Not sure where you live, but we have a lot of black berry vines around here. Wild bunnies eat the leaves to help regulate their gut. If you have any near you not treated with pesticides that might be a good green to start him on as well.

[HopsiclesMommy]

I live in Philadelphia. I don’t think I would be able to find black berry vines, but maybe I could add black berry tea to his water. Maybe that could have the same beneficial effect?

[LBJ10]

Perhaps this whole ordeal has left him sensitive to veggies. There are some bunnies that can’t eat veggies, but are fine with pellets and hay (others are fine with veggies and hay, but not pellets).

[Azerane]

Just read through all the history on this thread. I feel like a week with no issues was a bit quick to start reintroducing so many things. While a week with no issues is great, it’s better to give the gut more time to completely stabilise before adding too many new dietary elements.

When reintroducing Kale, you need to do it much more slowly. It’s been a while since he’s had it and his gut flora has been messed up so you need to start with the bare basics. I would wait two weeks from the current episode and give him a tiny piece, no bigger than your pinky finger, if the next day he shows no symptoms, give another piece the same size. After two days with no issues you can increase the size of the piece, not by much, maybe double it so it’s the size of two fingers, and so on. Don’t increase the amount given too quickly, if it takes a month to reintroduce kale without issue, that’s fine, better than him having a bad reaction. If at any point the kale causes issues, stop feeding for 2-3 days and reduce the amount back down to the previous size that didn’t cause any issues and feed it for longer (ie. 4 days instead of 2).

[HopsiclesMommy]

Bun bun has been loving his pumpkin treats and haven’t had an issue with just pumpkin so far. I don’t want to take that from him, but I will try again today (after 2 day break) to give him a tiny pinky sized kale and see how he does. I have beet tops as well, but it isn’t something he ever had before, so I don’t want to give him that. Maybe I could try cilantro.
Are there any veggies that are significantly harder to digest than the rest, that I should avoid? I don’t want to break him again.

[Bam]

Carrots are hard to digest. They have a lot of sugar too so I’d avoid those. One of my buns can’t digest carrots so he can never have any. It gives him poopy butt.

[HopsiclesMommy]

It pains me to inform you all that Hopsicle unfortunately passed away last night. He was doing so much better, even put on half a pound at his last check up last week, we are still in shock that he passed away so abruptly. I want to mention what happened so that maybe it will help one you to notice the signs of a bunny in a fast declining state.

Hopsicle had his last vet check up last week as a follow up for his poopy butt/GI issues. We had been trying to put weight on him since he dropped a lot, he had grown sensitive to almost all foods except timothy and orchard hay, even then he still had random poopy butt incidents. He passed his check up with flying colors having put .5 lbs on him. He had been doing well. but two days ago he had another episode of poopy butt, which I was monitoring as usual. There wasn’t much to change in his diet at this point. And then he had another the day after, but he still seemed like his usual self. Or so we wanted to think. His energy levels had been low, he would sit and stare at the wall in his cage instead of hopping around, but it had become the new normal, so we didn’t think much of it. Yesterday morning he seemed normal. Jumped at the sound of his pumpkin, devoured it. Ran to his hay box when I replenished it. And we went to work. When we came home, we let him out and he was sitting under the dining table far from us, which sometimes he does so we let him be. Couple hours later I grabbed the Oxbow digestive cookie box and shook it, which he always responded by running for it. Yesterday he didn’t. I knew immediately something was wrong, went to check on him. He was unresponsive sitting in a goop of mucus. I picked him up and he didn’t even detest or blink, he was like in a trance. We freaked out and immediately took him to the vet. He was still breathing and we thought he could be saved by some fluids or something. But he was far too gone in shock. Our vet tried her best, but he was gone so quickly. The diagnosis was mucoid enteritis. Our vet told us that even if he was brought in in the morning he might not have survived, if he did he wouldn’t have too much time.

Hopsicle was only 2.5 years old. We loved him to the moon and back and it is so infuriating that he passed because of some bad reaction to celery he had one day.

[Bam]

I’m so terribly sorry to hear this. I thought he was going to be fine

He had the best owners though, you were really there for him. He was lucky to be part of your family. It’s just so sad and unfair that in spite of you doing everything, he didn’t get well.

Binky free, sweet Hopsicle

[Q8bunny]

I’m so sorry…
I, too, thought he was out of the woods.
(((binky free, little lop)))

[MiNinoJack]

I just read your whole history in this thread. So sorry for your loss!

Sounds like you were the best bunny parent a little one could ask for.

[HopsiclesMommy]

Thank you all. I imagine my sweet little Hopsicle eating all the bananas and kale in heaven, which he couldn’t for the last 6 months of his life. I am so very sad, but knowing he lived a happy life filled with love eases my pain.

My only concern is I still don’t know what to do in the future if another future bunbaby of mine has this kind of GI issues. I am scared now that it will always be a death sentence. After all we couldn’t figure out the situation, none of the medication or diet changes seemed to help. =(

[redbunbun]

I’m so sorry for your loss – what a terrible thing! Binky free, Hopsicle!

I hope I can maybe soothe your worries for the future a little. Mucoid enteritis, or infection of the stomach lining, is a symptom and not an illness in and of itself. If, in the future, you have a rabbit you suspect has mucoid enteritis, it’s important you get them antibiotics and get them those antibiotics quickly. However, the situation won’t be resolved until the reason behind the mucoid enteritis is found and solved. This is really not easy, and it varies from rabbit to rabbit. Even then, any rabbit with mucoid enteritis is already quite poorly. Even when caught very early and the cause isolated and solved, there’s still only so much you can do in this situation. Thankfully, mucoid enteritis is relatively rare – I wouldn’t be too worried of getting another similar case very soon. You did the best you could for Hopsicle, and it sounds like you did the right things – unfortunately, as much as we may wish it, even that isn’t always enough. Any future buns in your life will benefit from your increased knowledge after this episode with Hopsicle, and maybe, if there is a next time, that will be enough to tip the scale in your favor.

Good luck! My thoughts are with you. What a horrible thing to have to go through.

[Author]

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