Mild GI stasis, now diarrhea

[JuJooGuppy]

Well, our Bug was eating less and less and not pooing much, so we took him to the vet. He honestly didnt look at him much, just said he thought it was likely early GI stasis (which honestly seemed accurate at this point based on everything he was doing, not eating, not drinking, not poo’ing and sitting in corners over all.) , so he treated him, gave him subQ fluids,  some Metoclopramide and Baytril, and sent us home with Baytril. Well, about 5 hrs after leaving the vet… our little guy is going to the bathroom, but its a goopy mess. He passed a very large poo (I mean, huge.. poor guy) and now is having almost diarrhea? Its mushy poo. Is this normal after such a treatment?

The other issue is he does NOT want to be picked up to get his butt cleaned, and he definitely as a bit of poo in his hair now… we dont want to keep stressing him out, but we also know we cant leave it dirty like that. Honestly, borderline about to take him to the vet tomorrow to get him clean, though worried its going to continue with the treatment?

He still has fluids in him from the SubQ (Still visible), so thats good, and he has ate quite a bit of hay now. But this mushy poo mess has me worried… do I need to get him straight back to a vet..? Did this guy over do it? Our little guy was poo’ing prior to the visit just very very little, so I got very worried. I hope he didnt give me bad advice for the sake of money…

Please do let me know if I should be getting him back to a vet. He’s eating again now so thats good.. should I not stress about his poo butt at the moment and let him get through this?

[DanaNM]

Posted By JuJooGuppy on 8/24/2017 10:33 PM

Well, our Bug was eating less and less and not pooing much, so we took him to the vet. He honestly didnt look at him much, just said he thought it was likely early GI stasis (which honestly seemed accurate at this point based on everything he was doing, not eating, not drinking, not poo’ing and sitting in corners over all.) , so he treated him, gave him subQ fluids,  some Metoclopramide and Baytril, and sent us home with Baytril. Well, about 5 hrs after leaving the vet… our little guy is going to the bathroom, but its a goopy mess. He passed a very large poo (I mean, huge.. poor guy) and now is having almost diarrhea? Its mushy poo. Is this normal after such a treatment?

The other issue is he does NOT want to be picked up to get his butt cleaned, and he definitely as a bit of poo in his hair now… we dont want to keep stressing him out, but we also know we cant leave it dirty like that. Honestly, borderline about to take him to the vet tomorrow to get him clean, though worried its going to continue with the treatment?

He still has fluids in him from the SubQ (Still visible), so thats good, and he has ate quite a bit of hay now. But this mushy poo mess has me worried… do I need to get him straight back to a vet..? Did this guy over do it? Our little guy was poo’ing prior to the visit just very very little, so I got very worried. I hope he didnt give me bad advice for the sake of money…

Please do let me know if I should be getting him back to a vet. He’s eating again now so thats good.. should I not stress about his poo butt at the moment and let him get through this?

True diarrhea is watery… sounds like it is more just unformed mushy poops because things are moving a long a bit too fast, but that is better than too slow! The fact that he is pooping (although it’s soft), and eating hay is all very good. Is he eating any greens? 

I would call the vet in the morning and see if what he thinks. Stasis recovery can come in fits and starts, so I wouldn’t change anything at the moment. Is he currently on the Metoclopramide? Or was that just at the vets? Anything for pain?  Are you syringe feeding at all? 

A larger question is, do you trust your vet? The fluids are good, but I’m surprised he didn’t prescribe a pain med or syringe feeding. 

Many members have had success giving a pro-biotic for mushy poops after stasis or medications. Bene-bac is popular and seems to work well. You might try that if he doesn’t get back to normal quickly. 

Another question, is does your guy have a history or irregularly shaped poops or other stasis episodes? Was it just the one large poop, or were there several?

In terms of the poopy-butt, you’ll need to clean the litter box A LOT (like, three times a day at least), until they clear up. If he really is having trouble keeping himself clean, you can give a bum-bath, or you can try using cornstarch as a dry bath. You basically put the cornstarch on the wet stuff goop, then comb it out.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

Yeah, I was thinking I shouldve changed the wording as its not true diarrhea yet just a mushy mess.

Okay, so first question you asked, is he eating any greens – no, but that is purely because we hadnt even got a chance to give him any, he is a new guy we only had a week. We think he just overloaded himself on pellets and threw himself into a funk, as he wasnt wanting to eat hay when we first got him.. that and we were trying to transition his pellets, and I think it all just made a mess of things. I was told by the vet I could give him greens, but since I have yet to ever give him any, it concerns me a bit? Should I get something like parsley and give him just a little bit, or wait a bit..?

I plan to follow back up with the vet. This was all done today, the mushy poo was about 5 hrs after getting our little guy home… I just wasnt told to expect it, so im stressing out. As is, I have a feeling that I caused him to start into stasis, and so im stressed, upset, and a lot more broke than i was, heh.

He was given a script for … I think the Baytril as a take home, and a pain med, I forget which (Not tramadol, I think it started with an M, I had to go to work.) I was told to start these tomorrow morning. He’s just a tiny little guy, only 1 lb and 11 weeks old, so shouldnt require much medication I wouldnt think.

As for trusting my vet — he seemed to have good reviews online, but this is my first visit, we hadnt had a chance to really look around for a vet for our new guy, and I had to call 5 different places just to get him seen today… this was just the first to get him in. Like I say though, the reviews online seemed generally positive, he said he had raised rabbits all his life. He did say that even with our bun bun being a youngen, he actually prefers completely hay and greens diets, with no pellets at all or pellets as a treat only… i had never heard that before, though. Right now our guy is on hay only due to the situation, but I had figured once he is in the clear to still give him pellets, just in a much more controlled amount. As long as he keeps munching hay down.

How long should I allow mushy poo before taking further action, aside from calling my vet in the morning>?

As for his poo history, again only had him a week, so yeah its all ew. When we first got him, I think he was on pellets only already, as he was making a lot of cecotropes, but he was still making normal fecals. just kinda gradually changed to this point.

I apologize, I shoulda mentioned he was only 11 weeks old too. He’s not fully potty trained yet, he has been fairly good about peeing in it, and he does go there to poo part of the time, but not all of it. So we have had to clean a lot of smeared mush up tonight… we are just concerned about how much he has in his bum fuzz and that area, and heck right now even his feets are a bit dirty. He normally lets us pick him up a bit, but touching his bum or feet sends him into fits fighting us, and I dont want to hurt him or stress hm more. I am just worried about leaving him dirty too long… we can get him a little wet to clean him as we have before, but it stresses him a bit, and if he is going to get mushy poo on himself shortly after, it seems like unnecessary stress on the guy.

Part of it is the subq fluids are still present in his belly area so he’s a bit puffy, making it harder for the little guy to clean down that low.

He had the one large poo, like it was probably the size of a quarter in diameter coming from the tiny little guy… after that its just been mush time.

Right now, since he is at least poo’ing, and generally eating (He ate quite a bit of hay when we got him, he has laid off it now but he had been not eating at all so its a good sign), I think my biggest concern is how messy he is getting and not letting us get the little guy clean. Should we keep trying to clean it despite stressing him out and the fact he still has the mush, or should we give him a bit to get the mush done and then give him a good cleaning..? Not going to lie, I may end up taking him in just to get assistance in getting the guy clean. I dont want him to get hurt from kicking back.. :/

Thanks for the reply, im stressed beyond belief, ive slept only an hour trying to take care of him, and I feel like i put him through this which makes matters worse..

[JuJooGuppy]

As a quick follow up, given the situation, would you say its bes tto avoid greens, or introduce low amounts? Im not sure if they will do more harm or good currently since he hasnt had them before…

[JuJooGuppy]

EDIT: Some how it double posted, and I dont see a delete. Sorry!

[DanaNM]

Posted By JuJooGuppy on 8/25/2017 12:28 AM

Yeah, I was thinking I shouldve changed the wording as its not true diarrhea yet just a mushy mess.

Okay, so first question you asked, is he eating any greens – no, but that is purely because we hadnt even got a chance to give him any, he is a new guy we only had a week. We think he just overloaded himself on pellets and threw himself into a funk, as he wasnt wanting to eat hay when we first got him.. that and we were trying to transition his pellets, and I think it all just made a mess of things. I was told by the vet I could give him greens, but since I have yet to ever give him any, it concerns me a bit? Should I get something like parsley and give him just a little bit, or wait a bit..?

I plan to follow back up with the vet. This was all done today, the mushy poo was about 5 hrs after getting our little guy home… I just wasnt told to expect it, so im stressing out. As is, I have a feeling that I caused him to start into stasis, and so im stressed, upset, and a lot more broke than i was, heh.

He was given a script for … I think the Baytril as a take home, and a pain med, I forget which (Not tramadol, I think it started with an M, I had to go to work.) I was told to start these tomorrow morning. He’s just a tiny little guy, only 1 lb and 11 weeks old, so shouldnt require much medication I wouldnt think.

As for trusting my vet — he seemed to have good reviews online, but this is my first visit, we hadnt had a chance to really look around for a vet for our new guy, and I had to call 5 different places just to get him seen today… this was just the first to get him in. Like I say though, the reviews online seemed generally positive, he said he had raised rabbits all his life. He did say that even with our bun bun being a youngen, he actually prefers completely hay and greens diets, with no pellets at all or pellets as a treat only… i had never heard that before, though. Right now our guy is on hay only due to the situation, but I had figured once he is in the clear to still give him pellets, just in a much more controlled amount. As long as he keeps munching hay down.

How long should I allow mushy poo before taking further action, aside from calling my vet in the morning>?

As for his poo history, again only had him a week, so yeah its all ew. When we first got him, I think he was on pellets only already, as he was making a lot of cecotropes, but he was still making normal fecals. just kinda gradually changed to this point.

I apologize, I shoulda mentioned he was only 11 weeks old too. He’s not fully potty trained yet, he has been fairly good about peeing in it, and he does go there to poo part of the time, but not all of it. So we have had to clean a lot of smeared mush up tonight… we are just concerned about how much he has in his bum fuzz and that area, and heck right now even his feets are a bit dirty. He normally lets us pick him up a bit, but touching his bum or feet sends him into fits fighting us, and I dont want to hurt him or stress hm more. I am just worried about leaving him dirty too long… we can get him a little wet to clean him as we have before, but it stresses him a bit, and if he is going to get mushy poo on himself shortly after, it seems like unnecessary stress on the guy.

Part of it is the subq fluids are still present in his belly area so he’s a bit puffy, making it harder for the little guy to clean down that low.

He had the one large poo, like it was probably the size of a quarter in diameter coming from the tiny little guy… after that its just been mush time.

Right now, since he is at least poo’ing, and generally eating (He ate quite a bit of hay when we got him, he has laid off it now but he had been not eating at all so its a good sign), I think my biggest concern is how messy he is getting and not letting us get the little guy clean. Should we keep trying to clean it despite stressing him out and the fact he still has the mush, or should we give him a bit to get the mush done and then give him a good cleaning..? Not going to lie, I may end up taking him in just to get assistance in getting the guy clean. I dont want him to get hurt from kicking back.. :/

Thanks for the reply, im stressed beyond belief, ive slept only an hour trying to take care of him, and I feel like i put him through this which makes matters worse..

Ahhh this is helpful. Yes, his stasis was likely due to the change in diet and environment, but it is very good you caught it early. 

Since he is so young, you might ask about a fecal analysis to see if he has parasites (coccidea specifically), which can cause diarrhea in young rabbits. But again, mushy poops and diarrhea are different. Next time he poops, save a sample in the fridge so you can take it to the vet for analysis. 

You are right about not giving greens yet, most wait until 12 weeks, and especially don’t want to upset things when he’s already in a delicate state. But, you should ask if the vet recommends syringe feeding critical care (or something similar) to get some extra nutrients and water into him. 

The pain med might have been Metacam? It’s the most common pain med prescribed for bunnies. 

I was fostering a bunny that got very sick and oscillated between stasis and extremely mushy, mucousy poops. I would give him a bum bath about once a week, and just tried to keep his pen as clean as possible by laying down lots of fresh towels everywhere on his floor and cleaning his box three times a day. 

If he is really very messy, you can do a bum bath. I have used my bathroom sink for this. Here’s a good video explaining the details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UcoZHBlQ80

Very important to get him completely dry, and keep him warm. 

Regarding the no pellets diet, many members here do that for their buns, so it’s not unheard of, but you have to provide a very wide variety of greens, so most opt for a restricted pellet diet. And usually people don’t restrict pellets till the bunny is fully grown. 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Q8bunny]

A big gelatinous poo post stasis is perfectly normal, as are subsequent mushy poos until his system processes the meds & insurge of fluids, and his GI tract stabilizes. Bunny diarrhea -the lethal kind- is brown water.

Honestly, as long as there’s no risk of fly strike, and he has space to move around, don’t worry about his poopy butt right now. Give him a clean blanket or towel or puppy pad to hop around on, and let him groom himself to avoid further stress.

If he’s eating well, feed him hay. Feed him even more hay strand by strand by hand if you can. Hay and water are hands down the most effective means of resetting a bun with a poorly GI. Do not reintroduce greens and then pellets until his poops are forming again and have looked good for a few days. And even then, go easy at first. Buns shouldn’t normally start on greens until 12 weeks, and it’s also possible the pellets he had prior to adoption were not good quality high fiber grass hay ones.

Observe him closely and please keep us updated of any big changes.

[JuJooGuppy]

Thank you, this is all very helpful. Yeah, until he starts on greens I plan to still give him some pellets, just a bit more restricted than before to hopefully prevent this from ever happening again, i havent been this stressed out in YEARS. I feel so bad for my little buddy, he is still so lovey that even after his scary trip he gave me some nose kisses despite everything… such a little cutey.

Metacam does sound right on the pain med, too. Im hoping he doesnt fuss too much taking his meds in the morning, as he is hard to hold still right now if he gets upset… poor guy.

This replies have helped me relax my stress level from a 15 out of 10 to maybe a 10 out of 10, so thanks  I wish I didnt have to work tonight so I could be sitting and making sure he is eating more, he ate a fair bit before I left and I plan to stay up with him when I get home. The fiance stayed up with him a few hrs past my leaving but he had slowed on the eating by then.

He isnt drinking much yet, but he still had a droopy belly from the subQ fluids, so I think he should be okay as far as the fluids go at least till morning. Hopefully ill get him drinking more when I get home in a few hours. 

Thanks all, you cna be sure ill keep updating as ill likely run into questions or concerns too… Only an hour of sleep and yet wide awake from worrying myself.  

[Q8bunny]

Metacam usually smells and tastes like honey, so most buns lap it up quite eagerly straight from the tip of the syringe.

[JuJooGuppy]

Well, that leaves just the Baytril then

[joea64]

Hope he continues to improve well! Are his poops getting back toward normal? If they’re getting hard, odorless and dry and look like they’re all hay bits when you break them open, then it’s getting good.

I was quite concerned that my own buns might have a bout of stasis when they moved in this past weekend due to the huge change in living environment. Happily, that hasn’t happened, in fact my problem is dealing with all the little round poops they’re putting out!  They’ve been very enthusiastic eaters from the get-go and when I changed out the old/soiled hay for fresh last night, they purely attacked it with great vim and vigor.

[Q8bunny]

If he refuses his Baytril, try mixing in a drop of honey or a teaspoon of mashed ripe banana.

[DanaNM]

When Pip was on Baytril he LOVED it, so hopefully they made it tasty for him. 

How’s your little guy doing today? 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

Well, he had one more mushy poo last night that I saw, and thats been mainly it poo wise. He had a couple small hard poo pellets but no significant poo at the moment. He took both medications without incident, so that was good. Ive been able to keep getting him to eat some hay here and there, sometimes only a little sometimes a fair bit.

Hes not super active though thats for sure, prefering to just sit in a loaf. I think he may be in a little discomfort, as periodically I hear him grind his teeth a couple of short times.. its not constant though, like more literally he will grind his teeth together for one or two clicks and stop usually. Its hard for me to tell if he is just relaxing or in pain in this case, because he isnt up and moving around like normal but hes also not grinding super loud / consistently. Just dozing off in a loaf like position.

I can hear his poor tummy from here though, so I lean towards slight discomfort for the little guy..

Since this is all so new, I am waiting to hear from the vet about the possible discomfort, as well as the longish period without much poo again. At least he is eating a fair bit of hay.. ive been mixing timothy / orchard / alfalfa (Lighter on alfalfa at the moment) to help him want to eat it. Sometimes i gotta kinda wake him a bit and get his attention with it to get him munching on it, heh.

Still not really drinking yet, but his belly looks like it still has a bit of subQ fluid left yet.. the vet told me today that he should be fine that way till tomorrow, if he doesnt start drinking more by tomorrow then to call them.

I feel just awful for the guy, trying hard to get him feelin better. I got him out of his cage for a little bit just to hop around a couple of times, but it was clear he wasnt thrilled about it right now.. i know it can help with his gut motility, but if he is uncomfortable right now, seems it may be best not to force the issue?

[JuJooGuppy]

On the comfort issue, I will say that when i give him some love he still readily gently chatters away in happiness at least, so I guess thats good.

[DanaNM]

Sounds like he is experiencing some gas and pain, which often comes along with stasis and can cause continued gi slowdown. I would not force him to move around, but do make sure to keep him warm and as comfortable as possible. And if you can entice him to move with hay that would be good. Are his ears warm to the touch? You can provide a water water bottle wrapped in a towel for him to snuggle up against. 

You can try infant gas drops (simethicone), which are inert and safe to use (and won’t interfere with other meds), and a belly rub to help pass the gas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbyC6CWbm5M). You can also try massaging along his spine to stimulate his gi tract.  

Keep pushing hay, water, and please do ask about syringe feeding or at least offering some pellet mash or canned pumpkin (unsweetened). 

Are you offering water in a bowl as well as a bottle? 

How many hours has it been since his last poo? You may also inquire about a longer course of motility meds. 

Stasis recovery can be like jump starting a train…. keep being vigilant and patient, sorry you have to deal with such a stressful episode so early on with your little one!

Since you are new to all of this, this article is an excellent summary on stasis causes, symptoms, and treatments: http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

Its been awhile since his last poo, the vet said if he hasnt started going a bit more by tomorrow morning that i should probably bring him back in for a possible xray to make sure there isnt a blockage issue, esp with sunday coming up. We are supposed to give him Baytril twice daily, and I still hear his belly gurgle here and there so we shall see. Still eating lots of hay, not drinking much yet but still has fluids (They figure if he isnt drinking more by tomorrow morning, may be an issue by then, but with him still having some subQ fluids I think hes not needing it as much atm.

[Q8bunny]

Something else you might want to consider is forcing him to move around. Bribing him with treats from across the room or shooing him from place to place. Not only can it help pass painful gas, but it can also get his gut started. The Metacam should help with the pain…

[JuJooGuppy]

Well, he still has not pooped in quite some time, which is a huge worry and he will be on his way in for xrays if he doesnt poop when I get home in the morning (Which is right about when the vet opens anyway.)

He is however, seemingly feeling a bit better. Got out of his cage to adventure about a little on his own, which was good to see. Now that the subQ fluids are completely absorbed, I have seen him drink a bit of water, about 30mL and a few sips here and there. Continues to nom nom down his hay, so that is good… I have been holding off on anything but the hay for the moment till we see SOMETHING poo wise. He is a skinny little thing though, makes me worry there IS something going on in his gut…

Still quite the little love bug, giving us kisses (Though, he is a stink bug right now since we havent been able to thoroughly clean him up yet, poor guy.) and enjoying our love in return… I just hope he progresses tonight

[JuJooGuppy]

Dang double post again. Sorry. Also noticed I have started off with “well,” too many times… lol. In my defense, I am fatigued as can be, I was up something like 40 hrs with only an hr power nap in there and a couple of short snoozes at work when I fell asleep (Out of my control at that point heh).

[Q8bunny]

((((((bun bun)))))) Poor little dude…

[JuJooGuppy]

Needless to say this is the longest, most stressful shift at work in a long time. If he hasnt gone when I got home, then I am extremely worried for the little love bug… in the event of needing further procedures (Even the X-rays, really, they will be quite expensive im sure) we will have to apply for the financing thing, we JUST bought a car prior to buying our little guy, and now we are well over $500 in to him, too, with the $250 vet bill being the first unexpected cost… I don’t want to even think about it.

Just going to think positive thoughts for the rest of the night.. going to come home to a large pile of nicely formed poop and never be so happy to have seen poop in my life.

[Q8bunny]

You will quickly find that bunny parents are OBSSESSED with poos. For good reason, too.

Sorry things are so stressful right now, though. I hope you come home to little poo pyramids

[joea64]

Hope he’s back to pooping normally again! I wouldn’t have thought myself three months ago that I’d be happy to see little round balls of used hay scattered all over the floor, but I am! I know where you’re coming from on the money thing – I want to get Care Credit both for myself and my buns’ needs but I need to wait a while more so my credit scores don’t take a ding, as I’d recently obtained a couple of other cards before that.

[DanaNM]

How’s the wee one doing today? I’ve been sending pooping vibes!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

No poo today, just a couple of tiny tiny pellets. Lil’ Bug had to go back in today, got the X-Rays done to check for an obstruction… to which they did not see any, thankfully! But he does have a lot of poo stuck in the little guy still, his system just didnt start back up like it should.. so hes staying with the vet a couple of days to get round the clock treatment / fluids to try to get his little system going. We will hear back monday where he is at by then… poor guy.

I really hope its enough to get him up and going, I feel horrible as is, not to mention we are going to be another $500+ in to our lil guy after just over a week, heh.. seems like he was probably already starting to get backed up a bit when we bought him, and his pellet heavy diet continued it immediately (I dont think the people that raised him had even given him hay by that point honestly, but I think I shouldve been limiting his pellets and really forcing him to eat more hay.. just hope he rebounds nicely and very soon.

Thanks for all the help / poop vibes, lol, I really do appreciate it.

[Q8bunny]

Aww… sorry to hear that. ((((((Vibes)))))) for the little man.

[DanaNM]

Posted By JuJooGuppy on 8/26/2017 7:16 PM

No poo today, just a couple of tiny tiny pellets. Lil’ Bug had to go back in today, got the X-Rays done to check for an obstruction… to which they did not see any, thankfully! But he does have a lot of poo stuck in the little guy still, his system just didnt start back up like it should.. so hes staying with the vet a couple of days to get round the clock treatment / fluids to try to get his little system going. We will hear back monday where he is at by then… poor guy.

I really hope its enough to get him up and going, I feel horrible as is, not to mention we are going to be another $500+ in to our lil guy after just over a week, heh.. seems like he was probably already starting to get backed up a bit when we bought him, and his pellet heavy diet continued it immediately (I dont think the people that raised him had even given him hay by that point honestly, but I think I shouldve been limiting his pellets and really forcing him to eat more hay.. just hope he rebounds nicely and very soon.

Thanks for all the help / poop vibes, lol, I really do appreciate it.

Poor little man, and poor you! Stasis is so stressful  

Glad there’s no blockage, hopefully a longer course of motility meds and fluids get’s him moving along soon!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

Well, the vet called us in today, having decided to run another X-ray after the weekend because the meds were seemingly not doing much… and the x-rays confirm that. He’s still extremely full of poo, and not really passing any at this point despite being on fluids and the motility meds. He also noted something unusual up around the heart of our little guy, an area of space that should be more empty seems filled with something that is pushing on his heart a bit. He can’t be sure without doing a lot more work on our lil Bug. He said taht out of the 100+ rabbits he has personally raised, and the countless treated, he has never seen one so young have such a bad time with stasis and not show any real progress… he personally is wondering if its a case of genetics for him, since there is the other issue around his heart, too.

I don’t think he would be trying to steer me wrong, they took off charges for some of the medication / one of the x-rays to try and help us (without us asking mind you) because we are already in over $800 trying to help our love bug. Right now, I really don’t know what to do. He has gone a little, but its the tiniest of amounts, and thats following 2 straight days plus the first round of treatment. At this point I have no idea if trying further of the motility drugs would do anything for him or not, not to mention we are quickly getting to the point where we are going broke trying… not that I mind spending money to save him, mind you. I just dont know what we are even going to do at this point if he doesnt start improving. He is still eating and drinking and even wanting to play some, but just can’t seem to poop..

It does make me wonder since he was able to go fairly normal for a couple of days after we got him, but just slowly went down hill.. right now we have him on hay only due to the situation, in the hopes of getting his gut flowing right..

[JuJooGuppy]

So while reading though, I am seeing that it can take as long as 2 weeks to recover with continued treatment… problem is, its been costing $45 per dose for the stuff.. I don’t personally know the vet, as we had to just find one that was well reviewed and close, as well as available, but looking online, it seems to me like it may be premature to consider our little guy unable to improve..? I dont think he would intentionally steer me wrong.. he just said that generally they see pretty good improvement within the first few days from the continuous treatment, and thus far there has been next to none.

Now I am wondering if we shouldve insisted on him staying for treatment for longer or not… we both love our little guy and want to do whatever we can to help and save him, though there are some financial limitations too… crazy to think we have had him just over a week or 2 and have gone through well over $1,000 already heh. Has anyone run into young bunnies that just dont seem to improve from the medications…?

EDIT: I see people often mention giving Reglan at home, but this was never even brought up by my vet. He took our little guy in for a couple of days, giving a morning and evening round of fluids and I believe Reglan, did this sat / sun into monday, with some treatment on thursday as well.

Is it some how considerably cheaper to do at home..? Given the lack of improvement between xrays (Infact, the ‘after’ xray almost looked worse honestly, there were no pockets that he described needing to be in there, at all. The before he at least had a little space going on. Looks jammed pack…) I wonder if he is right in there is clearly an underlying issue, or if he is being premature.. he seems knowledgeable enough, and as I said claims to have personally raised over 100 himself, so I dont like to doubt a vet, but I am having a hard time accepting my little Bug may not make it..

[DanaNM]

Was just about to head to bed and saw this, so sorry to hear your little one is still not well.

Has the vet been trying different motility meds? The two main ones are cisipride and reglan (metaclopromide). Sometimes one works but the other doesn’t, other times both are needed, depending on the area of the GI tract that has slowed down.

I’m amazed that the medication is $45 per dose! That seems extreme… when my foster bunny had stasis I had to give him motility meds three times per day for a week… but then he turned out to have a genetic issue and will need to be on cisipride for the rest of his life.

So, it is quite possible that he has a genetic issue… but it’s hard because that can never be fully confirmed. I would agree that he would be showing some improvement after a few days on the treatment, but it is common for a week or more of treatment to be necessary to get fully back on track…. but that assumes the treatment is correct.

A new vet would need to do their own exam, so it would incur more costs… It does sound like your vet has quite a bit of experience, but the costs for the medication seem extreme.

This is tough, but if it were me, I would probably ask if they could send me home with a course of motility meds, pain meds, and fluids, along with critical care, and see if more time and consistent treatment would help. Hopefully that would be financially manageable….

I’m so sorry you are having to go through this.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

Thanks for the reply before bed. I may inquirer into bringing some motility drugs home with me and see if we can get any progress (Already on pain and Baytril). Its incredibly painful, we havent had him long but he is SUCH a lovey guy, it took us forever to find a bunny that we instantly connected with and now hes struggling badly. At least he is eating and drinking and moving around, but its looking worse and worse with each day. With him taking an extra xray free of charge, I knew something was up when I got that call… He encouraged us to keep giving tummy rubs and keep him active and to keep trying, but also told us that he felt we were getting to a point where pilling on further charges with no real improvement is likely to be us just throwing money away…

Here’s hoping to seeing some signs of improvement. I will have to double check the medication cost, that MAY have been for 2 doses, but I know it was all pretty pricey as our bill added up really fast.

[DanaNM]

I totally understand.

I’m still very confused as to why he would have him on antibiotics and hospitalized but not a longer course of motility medication. You should ask him about cisipride. If he hasn’t heard of it, you should ask another vet, or ask him to ask another vet. 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

I know that from the x-rays, it seems like the entire tract is out of whack — he is just completely filling up and nothing wants to move. The first treatment did move some poo out, a quarter sized glob and then some mush which was what my original post was about, but he immediately went right back to just nothing but a couple tiny fecal pellets.

And thats where we are again even after round 2, the little guy doesn’t appear to have gone at all since I got home and slept for 5 hrs, he had a tiny poo last night but thats it.

Part of the reason our vet was leaning towards something being messed up genetically was also because of the heart issue I mentioned, he said that really wasnt a good sign in such a young bun and was quite unusual in itself..

I know he has pooped a tiny bit more than we are seeing, because the goofball has taken up occasionally eating his fecal pellets. Not entirely sure why, but I saw people mention it does happen. Does make it harder to track things though, trying to judge whether he ate a ceco or pellet.. but even still, he is just barely going at all and thus far, not looking better.

[Q8bunny]

Jeez, I’m so sorry to hear this… Poor little mite.

The thing that makes me wonder is, in cases of a serious blockage, motility meds can do more harm than good because they induce peristaltic movement in an intestine that’s plugged up. I’d ask for some sort of laxative if possible…

[JuJooGuppy]

We have had our little guy out and moving, been doing our best to keep him hydrated and active. He has actually wanted to move around on his own a bit, even giving us one quick bink of excitement… I can still here movement in his tummy, and things are coming out just very very tiny at this point. Still, its a slight improvement from yesterday. He had a couple little tiny tiny piles of tiny fecal pellets, vs basically none when he got back. Overall he has acted a bit more lively, too. We are trying to make sure he isnt in extreme pain, as I dont want to torture him in the process of trying to save him.

Because we are at such a point where the meds seem to be ineffective, I got him pumpkin and have been feeding him some of that, while still trying to get him to eat hay. We are trying to find critical care today to give him some of that. I am considering parsley, as i have read its effective for constipation in bunnies? I am calling the vet shortly to see if they have critical care there, I suppose I will ask about a potential laxative? I really dont want to make a wrong choice here, trying so hard to save our little guy.

[DanaNM]

That’s great that he made some poops! And gurgles are good! And that’s great that he seems more energetic. If his appetite is still good, more should follow! *fingers crossed*

Pumpkin is great because it will hydrate him and is high fiber.

I would be careful with laxatives…. Petroleum based ones (like the kind they give to cats with hairballs) can make matters worse as they dehydrate the gut mass and make it harder to pass.

I would just keep up the supportive care and hydration (pain meds for sure if he’s still on them), and I think offering a tiny bit of some herbs would be OK. Plaintain (the weed) and peppermint can also be good for bunny tummies out of whack. Our rabbit rescue says they will make fresh mint tea for their stasis buns. Here’s a list of medically useful herbs: http://www.disabledrabbits.com/herbs.html

I might have already mentioned this, but there are some acupressure points along the spine that supposedly stimulate the gut. You can gently massage along his spine, and that might help move things along, especially if he gets a painful gas bubble.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Q8bunny]

If you can’t find Critical Care, soaking pellets and feeding him the mush is a good alternative.

[JuJooGuppy]

Thanks for the suggestions, he is eating a bit less today doesnt want hay thus far. He was munching down the pumpkin earlier, I actually stopped because I was worried about giving too much. He’s back to being uncomfortable right now, not wanting to do much. Going to give him more belly rubs and try to help him relax like last night, we actually had him sprawl out on th efloor which was nice.

The vet we currently see doesn’t sound like sending us home with motility drugs is something he typically does / recommends, and given where he is and how unresponsive he was to the motility drugs over all, I am leaning towards continuing to do our best for him to try to pull him through. Our vet sounds pretty set on there being something awful genetic wise with the little guy, and I think he is concerned we will spend thousands of dollars on a bunny we have had 2 weeks only to have it end poorly…

He is just such a sweetheart, so we are trying anything in our power… I mean, I never expected to find a bunny this young that after only a couple weeks with us would bbe coming up to give us nose kisses and wanting our kisses back.. he’s exactly what we want in a bunny, if we can just pull him out of this… There is still the concern that even if he miraculously pulls through this, he has something going on with his little heart, too, which is scary.

[JuJooGuppy]

He’s definitely not in the mood for hay, but pumpkin he is eager to eat.. I just wonder how much is too much on that front? Soon as the lady gets home with the car ill be looking for parsley plants to give him some.. I got him to eat a little hay by kinda tricking him, I put a little taste of pumpkin on it lol he ate the pumpkin and decided ‘screw it’ and ate some good size pieces of hay.

Fluids are also a little more of a concern today, yesterday we got him to drink a fair bit mixed with pedolyte, today he’s not wanting it. Glad he is getting some from the pumpkin at least. We’ve been avoiding giving him straight pedolyte, trying to dilute it quite a bit… but we may need to give him small straight amounts if he doesnt start drinking some soon? How much should we be diluting it, anyway?

I tried making some pumpkin water, lol.. he came running to it, but was like “Wheres the dang pumpkin!?” and didnt want to drink.. maybe if I just add a little water so its still fairly solid, just extra water, that may work.

Not much on the poo front since last night. Seen him eat a couple fecal pellets (Don’t think they were ceco’s, he had to loudly chew them and a lot longer..) So SOMETHING is still moving, just oh so painfully slowly.

I actually havent seen any ceco’s since we switched to purely hay the last couple of days.. I assume he is prolly just not making a lot of them and actually eating them all rather than making extras. When we bought him, my fiance had actually noticed in his cage it looked like he was making a LOT of cecotropes and not nearly as many pellets. When we got him home he definitely made a lot of cecotropes, though he did make a fair bit of pellets of good size, too… which makes me really wonder about it being a genetic issue, since he was at least pooping fairly normally when we got him.

I keep feeling like I did this to the little guy, by allowing too many pellets and not forcing the hay issue, and trying to change his pellets out… It makes this entire thing that much worse thinking I made him get to this point :/

Definitely wish the vets initial thoughts wouldve been right, that we got to it early and he would come out of it pretty easy… poor little Bug Bug.

I apologize for the rambling nature of my replies of late… just kind of posting as the the thoughts cross my mind, I havent been sleeping much and just so stressed out my thoughts are coming out in a mess, heh. I appreciate everyones replies and feedback so much right now.

[Bam]

I think adding more water to mashed pumpkin might work. Smearing pumpkin on sdtrands of hay is genius

Please do ramble on all you like! It’s very stressful to have a bun that’s poorly.

[MissManders]

I’m Bug’s momma and I felt like I should post an update since I’ve been having better luck with getting Bug to eat, drink and get belly rubs; today he’s back to the low energy mood he had been in when we first brought him back from the vet, it’s a night and day difference from yesterday afternoon. Yesterday when I got off work I had him eating some pumpkin and he got very excited and spent most of the afternoon running around (not at full bink but more energy than he’s shown in over a week) and even laid down flat on his stomach with his legs out (which also he hasn’t done in quite a few days), now today when I got off work I was told he hadn’t eaten any hay on his own and wont drink water and has been sitting hunched up all day. I got him to drink water pretty quick, I had to use more pedialyte than I had been using (I dilute it quite a bit) but he drank it up and I have him eating watered down pumpkin and 2 hours later I made some more but also broke down his oxbow food pellets into a mush and added that to it and to top it off I broke down hay in tiny pieces and sprinkled it in. He doesn’t like it as much but he’s been nibbling away at it, so his food and water intake today has been ok but still no poop. Poor Bug isn’t playful at all yet, I was hoping food and water would perk him up like it did yesterday but he’s got more tummy pain, I’ve been trying to give him a gentle stomach massage but he hops away when i start to touch his stomach and I don’t want to hurt him so I leave him be (I’ve tried many times today, normally he lets me massage him and lift his butt for 5 min or so before wanting to hop away but today its as soon as my hand touched his tummy). I’m not sure what else I can do for him, I’m waiting on the parsley root, I should be able to give it to him in an hour or so; does anyone have experience with using the root? Should i be breaking it down or just feed him the roots as is?

I really hope this helps, I’m not sure what to do if it doesn’t get his system going a bit. Thanks to everyone who’s responded to us!

[JuJooGuppy]

Got him to eat a fair bit of parsley root tonight, woulda kept eating but we are trying to limit it a little.. though realistically he is at the point he either makes some progress real soon or we are out of options. He only had a few fecal pellets throughout the day, and just now another 5 or so tiny, tiny ones.. getting closer to the point where hard choices may need to be made for his comfort.

Hes being a picky eater but still eating, and we are getting some hydration via pedolyte water, pumpkin (and pumpkin mixed with extra water, too). Now probably some hydration from the roots, too. Still lots of gurgling when you put your ear to his tummy, just no real pooping sadly.. he isnt having loud gas though, either. I give him belly rubs whenever he lets me heh. he’s stubborn about it.

Still trying.

[JuJooGuppy]

Got a pleasant surprise actually.. he had been pooping a few small fecal pellets, when he managed to get a couple bigger ones, closer to normal size. Still a bit mishapen, but bigger size is good to see. He had a pee accident on the floor though… he normally is pretty good about that, but on the plus side, he has to be hydrated to be peeing still, and it wasnt super urine-smelly so I take that as a good sign. Its not ideal having him eat minimal hay at the moment, but at this point we gotta do what we gotta do. been mixing hay in the pumpkin, same with a tiny amount of his mushed pellets (they are oxbow young bunny, dont have access to critical care at the moment.)

The replies and help are appreciated it, I think we are seeing the tiniest glimmer of progress, and we will be damned if we are going to give up on our love bug yet.

[DanaNM]

Go Bug go!

And go you! Keep up whatever you’re doing!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Q8bunny]

Yay, Bug! More poo, please.

You guys are obviously both trying so hard, and Bug sounds like such a little fighter. Just keep at it, all three of you, and you may just kick this blockage’s butt (sorry… no pun intended…)

(((((((((Bug Bug)))))))))

[DanaNM]

Not sure how I missed this post Miss Manders! 

You guys are all such fighters! We are all rooting for little Bug at this point.

 I’m not familiar with parsley root, so I can’t help on that one, I’ve only ever fed leafy parsley. 

About the tummy rub, you can try just massaging along his spine if his tummy seems sensitive. 

But based on the more recent posts he seems to be improving a bit? 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

Her post was a bit delayed as it still had to go through the review process, since its a new account. I told her she could just use my account.. but shes as goofy as the little Bug himself.

It seems to me that the larger poop tonight is a good sign, for sure. Its noticeably larger than his poops yesterday, and there were even a couple pellets that were very close to what I think should be his normal size and were fairly round. He still has loooonnggg periods without going though. But I will take any sign from him. I have seem him click his teeth in pain occassionally, but I think overall he is doing okay, more uncomfortable than in extreme pain. Id never want to put him through extreme pain no matter how badly I want him to make it.

MissManders has been the one most successful with getting him to drink, and has been basically in charge of that, she is doing really well. He’s so small it doesn’t seem to take a whole lot, between the pedolyte water and pumpkin. I’ve personally been able to give him some tummy rubs here and there, some rather brief (couple mins at most) and others up to 10 mins or so… my best tactic for doing so… has been giving him kisses, haha. I just get down and start giving him little kisses with a kissing noise on the bridge of his nose, and he will stick it up there and seems to ignore me rubbing his belly most of the time.

It’s amusing when he is really wanting kissed on, when you pause he will often nudge his nose back up to your lips wanting more. So cute.

He hasnt been quite as active or relaxed tonight I dont feel like, but still moving around especially when we encourage him to. I haven’t seen him stretch out to lay down unfortunately, its been more hunching than anything tonight, but again the poop was a good sign. Here’s hoping at least. His tummy when I put my ear to it is definitely making lots of noise, I wanna say its gurgling more than last night actually. So he may just be uncomfortable from that. It’s not so loud that I hear it at a distance like when this started, so I don’t think its super bad gas. I am just glad to hear so much movement in there, just hoping it starts resulting in more movement out his little fuzzy bum!

[DanaNM]

By all means keep giving him snuggles and kisses (not that you had any intentions of stopping!), and just generally fussing over him. I’m sure your love is helping him keep fighting. 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[MissManders]

Bug did start eating a bit of hay on his own and drank quite a bit of water, and he loved the parsley roots, we’re trying to be cautious about how much of it we feed him since he’s having such a hard time and i would hate to make it worse by introducing a new food that messes him up. If anyone knows how much and often he should be getting the roots please let us know, my searching hasn’t led to any answers. Right now Bug is hoping back and forth across the living room showing much more energy (he even binked a little bit) and as I went to clean his litter box I happened to use the empty bucket that we got the parsley in to put his old litter in and when i set the bucket on the ground to grab his litter box Bug ran over to it and jumped right inside of it. I’m glad to see him so happy but i wish it wasn’t right before i was heading to bed, i hate to put him in his cage now that he’s finally moving around today.

[DanaNM]

Go Bug go!

Sounds like whatever your doing is helping him, so I would just keep it up! With root veggies in general, they should be fed in moderation due to the starch content, so that prob applies to parsley root too. Have you tried the leafy tops?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

Lil’ Bug Bug may have a long long ways to go, and there is still the chance things dont work out… but my goodness today has been such an exciting day.

He didn’t poop a ton in the 6 hrs between when MissManders sleeps and when I get home, but he continued to have better size pellets.. he’s urinating plenty, so appears to be staying hydrated despite not wanting to drink from his water bottle itself (We have to do pedolyte blends in a syringe to get him to drink, though he is also getting several ml of water in his pumpkin now too). So the poop was still an improvement, even if small… but…..

His energy level today is amazing! I have not seen our little guy this happy and energetic in quite awhile. He had been hunching in corners when I got home in the morning, generally uninterested in what I was up to etc… today, I opened his front of his cage like normal and walked away to get his meds, since he had been just sitting and waiting… not today, lol. He leapt out before I realized it, eager to get out and hop around, and see what goodies iwas getting him.

He binked about his area. He ate a bunch of hay on his own. He’s following us and eager to move around. I cant explain how happy it made me to see him so energetic today… certainly feels like we are making positive progress. I know it can turn the other way quickly, so we are being careful as can be, but ive never been so happy to see a binking bunny in my life.

He still isn’t doing his relaxed sprawls across the floor, so I know he still has comfort issues, but I have to believe this new found energy is excellent news.

Im curious , aside from tapering down on amounts of pedolyte, what other ways people use to get them back to regular water over time? I think part of him not drinking it is he is getting quite a bit from various sources and thus doesnt need it, but I dont want to cut down his water sources and have him back slide already. This is more of a question moving forward type of thing.

I also havent seen a cecotrope since this issue started, which I imagine is a large part due to switching from too many pellets to almost no pellets… but should we be concerned not seeing any at all? Or is it a fair assumption he is having some at night, and just eating them all? He keeps wanting to eat some of his fecal pellets, too, which makes it harder to track his poop amounts… not entirely sure the WHY behind him eating them, aside from being a pain… maybe he is just used to making so many cecotropes that he is eating some out of habit, i dont know.

Anyway… here’s to continued positive signs. Thank you all so much for the support and info.. at this point, if he continues to improve, we will be looking into other vets, since our current one seemed ready to throw in the towel… we just couldnt do it, and still cant.

[DanaNM]

Posted By JuJooGuppy on 8/31/2017 4:06 PM

Lil’ Bug Bug may have a long long ways to go, and there is still the chance things dont work out… but my goodness today has been such an exciting day.

He didn’t poop a ton in the 6 hrs between when MissManders sleeps and when I get home, but he continued to have better size pellets.. he’s urinating plenty, so appears to be staying hydrated despite not wanting to drink from his water bottle itself (We have to do pedolyte blends in a syringe to get him to drink, though he is also getting several ml of water in his pumpkin now too). So the poop was still an improvement, even if small… but…..

His energy level today is amazing! I have not seen our little guy this happy and energetic in quite awhile. He had been hunching in corners when I got home in the morning, generally uninterested in what I was up to etc… today, I opened his front of his cage like normal and walked away to get his meds, since he had been just sitting and waiting… not today, lol. He leapt out before I realized it, eager to get out and hop around, and see what goodies iwas getting him.

He binked about his area. He ate a bunch of hay on his own. He’s following us and eager to move around. I cant explain how happy it made me to see him so energetic today… certainly feels like we are making positive progress. I know it can turn the other way quickly, so we are being careful as can be, but ive never been so happy to see a binking bunny in my life.

He still isn’t doing his relaxed sprawls across the floor, so I know he still has comfort issues, but I have to believe this new found energy is excellent news.

Im curious , aside from tapering down on amounts of pedolyte, what other ways people use to get them back to regular water over time? I think part of him not drinking it is he is getting quite a bit from various sources and thus doesnt need it, but I dont want to cut down his water sources and have him back slide already. This is more of a question moving forward type of thing.

I also havent seen a cecotrope since this issue started, which I imagine is a large part due to switching from too many pellets to almost no pellets… but should we be concerned not seeing any at all? Or is it a fair assumption he is having some at night, and just eating them all? He keeps wanting to eat some of his fecal pellets, too, which makes it harder to track his poop amounts… not entirely sure the WHY behind him eating them, aside from being a pain… maybe he is just used to making so many cecotropes that he is eating some out of habit, i dont know.

Anyway… here’s to continued positive signs. Thank you all so much for the support and info.. at this point, if he continues to improve, we will be looking into other vets, since our current one seemed ready to throw in the towel… we just couldnt do it, and still cant.

Oh my gosh this is so great!!! 

Regarding water consumption, offer water in a heavy bowl or crock, use bottled or filtered if your tap water is gross (like mine), and refresh it often. For adults getting lots of greens, serve the veggies dripping wet (you can do this with the parsley you’ve been giving). Mine rarely drink from their bottle, but they have one anyway just in case they tip their bowl. 

About the cecotropes, it’s normal to never see a cecotrope in a healthy bunny, as they eat them all straight from their bum. When you see extras in their box, it usually means the diet is too rich (or they are on certain meds). 

He may be eating his fecals to get a bit of extra nutrition since he didn’t eat very much for a while.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

We are trying to mix in his young bunny pellets in tiny tiny portions, we are so afraid of sending him in the opposite direction, but we also know he is a growing bunny and needs nutrients. Just being super careful.

He doesn’t seem to ever want to drink from bowls, either… he’s a doofus when it comes to them, often just getting his ears went trying to sniff it, lol. But we will put out a bowl just the same, give him more options… its hard to do in his cage, not because he doesnt have the room, but he can hop around it quickly and make a huge mess lol.

Now we need to see more and more poops… he’s still quite slow on that front, often taking big chunks of the day only to poop a handful of pellets. but progress is progress… I think if he was getting worse, he wouldn’t be binking and exploring at all, and continue to hunch in the corner.

[DanaNM]

Posted By JuJooGuppy on 8/31/2017 4:39 PM

We are trying to mix in his young bunny pellets in tiny tiny portions, we are so afraid of sending him in the opposite direction, but we also know he is a growing bunny and needs nutrients. Just being super careful.

He doesn’t seem to ever want to drink from bowls, either… he’s a doofus when it comes to them, often just getting his ears went trying to sniff it, lol. But we will put out a bowl just the same, give him more options… its hard to do in his cage, not because he doesnt have the room, but he can hop around it quickly and make a huge mess lol.

Now we need to see more and more poops… he’s still quite slow on that front, often taking big chunks of the day only to poop a handful of pellets. but progress is progress… I think if he was getting worse, he wouldn’t be binking and exploring at all, and continue to hunch in the corner.

I think offering some pellets mashed into the pumpkin mix is a good solution, and will help him stay hydrated. 

And yes, moving around and eating are great signs that things are coming back online again.  

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Q8bunny]

Moving around more also means helping that poop block move along. Doubly good.

[MissManders]

So we have an exciting update, Bug has poo’d much more later this afternoon! The most recent bit has been normal size; he’s running around and has a big appetite, it’s such a relief to see him like this!

[JuJooGuppy]

He has been pooping a lot this evening, and sounds like he went a bunch when I left, too.. I think the only poo concern I have is he passed a BIG poop… it was one long oblong poop, kinda like 3-4 stuck together that smoothed into one solid shape (Rather than being able to see individual poops attached by hair or something, it was just one big smooth oblong one..)

When that one was coming out, he got a little bit excited and hopped around flipping about till he stopped to let it out, lol. Considering he had a couple days of nearly no poop, I am guessing it was likely just excess building up… it sounds like he went back to normal poops after I left…

We are both so happy and excited to have our little guy rebounding… I mean, we were very close to taking the vets advice for the sake of not putting him through pain for nothing.. but it just didnt sit right with us.

EDIT: Correction, MissManders is telling me that in addition to more regular poops he did have a few more that were like 2 stuck together, too. How concerned should we be about that, given he is coming out of a serious backup? Is there anything in particular that could cause it, if its not just from all of the days not pooping?

I am still shocked to see him coming out of this, I mean he had some 24 hr periods where there was basically NO poop, which is so scary for him..

[Q8bunny]

This is totally normal post a bout of stasis. Right now, it sounds like his little gut is eliminating all that compacted poo, which is fabulous!

[JuJooGuppy]

Looks like I am not the only one to have it post multiple times on me, haha.

I figured it was. Just being sure to check out anything and everything. Gotta get him back to drinking pure regular water, we are cutting out the pedolyte and mixing more water with his pumpkin… since he is back to eating lots of hay we are slowly limiting his pumpkin a bit, too, though we were already keeping it fairly light. Any changes are going to be slow and steady.

I really cant say enough just how excited we are, and how glad I am that we did our own research and continued the fight… to be honest, im also proud of us both for how much progress he has made, we had no experience with this prior and to have it happen so fast to our little guy right off the start was INCREDIBLY stressful. Im still a bit stressed and nervous bout it all, but ive been able to have a big sigh of relief finally lol.

Again, soooo many thanks to you guys.

[DanaNM]

This is all so great!

Way to go you guys!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bam]

So happy to hear he’s pooping! My Bam has given me that “big poop” experience after a bout of tummy distress in the past. Like a plug coming loose, sort of.

[MissManders]

So far today has been a great day for Bug! I had the day off so I’ve been able to keep a closer eye on him and although he didn’t poo as much as he use to overnight, he’s been going close to normal the rest of today. Bug is nom-nom-nomming away on hay, im still giving him pumpkin but in very small amounts mixed in with lots of water (so far he still hasn’t drank any plain water). I really hope this means he’s recovered, he still isn’t flopping onto his belly so we aren’t sure if he still has a bit of tummy pain (he hasn’t been grinding his teeth or showing any other sign of discomfort) but he’s been running around and binking a bit so I’m not too concerned at the moment.

I’m so happy we didn’t listen to the vet, I can understand why the vet thought he wouldn’t pull through (Our vet even called Bug a lemon! He said given how bad his impaction was at such a young age and the fact his heart didn’t look quite right in the xrays that he might just be a genetic lemon) when I saw the xrays and the vet explaining how bad it was plus the fact the second round of treatment did nothing to help we really did think he couldn’t make it. But we got him through this, I wish we hadn’t taken him into the vet the second time, I think all it did was stress Bug out and stress us out, plus put us in a bit of a financial spot for a few weeks. I will be looking for a different vet, the vet we had seemed nice and knowledgeable about bunnies but because of this situation we will always second guess his judgement and that makes for a bad vet/pet relationship. Thanks to everyone who read and responded to us, we are new bunny parents and worry about every little thing (JuJoo worries more than me, Bug got the hiccups once and he freaked out asking why is he doing that and I told him it looks like hiccups but I had to pull up a youtube video to show him it was normal so he’d stop stressing out lol) so having people to talk to has truly helped us!

[MissManders]

Oops double post

[Q8bunny]

Your guys’ reaction was totally natural. All doting bunny parents would’ve experienced acute anxiety, first timers or not.

I’m sure we’re all really glad Bug proved the vet wrong and we’ll continue to root for his tummy to be a healthy tummy (and a healthy ticker) from here on out. If Bug’s a genetic lemon, you sure got a tall glass of cool sweet lemonade.

Please give him some gentle nose rubs from me.

[JuJooGuppy]

Today was, from what I can tell, back to completely normal, and better than he was when we got him since hes not on a heavy pellet diet. We are extremely slowly introducing minimal pellets, I think given how bad this got we are going to try to focus on a hay / pumpkin / greens diet moving forward, with a very small amount of pellets to help nutrients wise. But I was able to get him to drink his normal water today, he’s been eating hay like its going out of style, and being a little goof ball. Also starting to do his happy flops after eating again, which is so good to see.

I am curious bout one thing ive noticed of late, when he drinks a fair bit of water or really watered down pumpkin, he often sits in a little poof ball position for a short period afterwards, then goes back to normal. It seems like he is just letting the water settle in or somehting? He doesnt look like he is in pain, doesnt act like it either aside from sitting like a little ball of fuzz. Not overly concerned, just curiosity.

He may very well have a more sensitive tummy than other bunnies that get away with lots of pellets, but his system is working perfectly now on a hay heavy diet. He’s pooping round the clock and eating tons too. When we first got him, he often pooped fairly far apart, large amounts all at once… so I think the issue was already building up when we got him. Glad we paid attention from the start.

We have been running into an issue of him peeing where he shouldnt be of late, which sucks since he had been so good about peeing in his box. But we also had opened up the entire living room the last few days to help encourage him to move around, and we are thinking since he hasnt been going back to his cage where his litter box resides, that may just be unsure due to the large amount of new space, or something along those lines. We plan to get a 2nd box to set out when we is having free roam of the room… and we are going back to his smaller (But still pretty big for him) play area for right now till he starts getting back into using his box… he doesn’t poop there consistently though, he likes to just poop wherever the mood strikes his fancy heh. Hopefully he makes some potty training progress… but the pee is the big thing. I can live with finding poops here and there, pee’s are more of an issue

Again, so many thanks to all of you and this forum, the advice here has helped drastically to save our Bug. And I will gladly give him lots of love for ya, lol. He probably will give some back, too He’s moved on from kissing my nose to trying to kiss my nose and lips now… not sure how I feel about little poo eater licking my lips, but who can resist the Cute Lil’ Bugger?

[Q8bunny]

We were just talking in another thread about why buns love to come over for kisses right after munching on bumberries.

[DanaNM]

This is so wonderful!!! I think at some point we would all love some pics of the little scrapper. You guys behaved as any loving bunny parent would, and did a stellar job IMO. I wouldn’t beat yourselves up over the second vet visit… the x-ray was prob beneficial in knowing that he didn’t have a true obstruction.

Good luck with the litter training, I’ve heard its very hard with young bunnies, but should should get better as he gets older, and then again once he’s neutered. I’m dealing with a similar issue with my Moose, all I have to say is Nature’s Miracle is your friend.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

I know MissManders has a couple pics of him on her profile, but I will definitely upload a few here in the next couple of days.

Man, he has quite the hunger now… he’s going to eat us out of hay at this rate, lol. He eats hay a large part of the day, just nom nom noming away! I know he ate far less when we first got him, and I imagine that was partly due to eating so many pellets, and partly due to filling up with poop slowly but surely. Its just crazy to see how much hay he eats now, lol.

We are mixing in alfalfa with timothy / orchard currently, since he is still quite young, and not getting as much nutrients since he isn’t on pellets really. We are probably a bit overly paranoid about the pellets at this point, we don’t want to send him back down that path… so right now, I have been doing 3-4 pellets in the morning, couple more in the afternoon and evening. All in all, generally 10 or under pellets in a day, which I know is so so few, but I don’t think he is lacking in healthy stuff since he is eating sooo much hay and still getting ~2 tsp of pumpkin a day and some parsely roots (Next week we are going to introduce the parsley leaves slowly, too.)

I don’t think we need to be too concerned since he is eating so much hay in a day? He is only ~1 lb right now. We havent decided exactly where we are going to taper off at on the pellets, we are just extremely slowly giving him some of the young bunny ones to help him grow. I don’t want to feel like we are not providing enough daily nutrients, but I also don’t want to risk his tummy going down hill when he is doing so extremelywell, just a little poop factory now. He’ll be rooting around in his hay and come out after 5-10 minutes of eating it, only to find a pile of poo too.

He has also stopped eating the fecal pellets now, from what I have seen, so I am guessing his nutrients needs are more closely being met?

Thanks for the kind words, too. We both learned a lot very quickly from this, and are far more confident going forward. We don’t think the vet was entirely wrong about him, either, we think he may have a bit of a sensitive tummy compared to more ‘regular’ bunnies, but I don’t think its very bad. Just can’t handle a poorly done pellet diet like some bunnies can.

[JuJooGuppy]

Oh, something I am also curious on.. we bought this foam mat to go under his cage when its not connected to its actual base (Makes it easy for him to get in and out.) Its perfectly flat and works great that way, he cant really even try to chew on it. I do have a slight concern bout the smell though, it has a strong smell, like certain foams do. It doesnt seem to bother him at all, but I am concerned it may pose health risk breathing it at all? Should we not use it or should it likely be safe if he isnt trying to eat it?

Its something along these lines: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Anti-Fatigue-Kitchen-Floor-Mat-Fresh-Fruit-18-x30/141556947#read-more I cant recall off hand what type of foam it is. I know if he starts trying to eat it at all, we will remove it as thats a big no no, but I dont think he can even try to eat it really. Just concerned by the smell is all.. figure its worth asking.

[Q8bunny]

Nomming on hay and pooping all day. Perfect!

I would remove the mat. IF he decides to sink his little fangs into it, I guarantee you’ll only find out after the fact, and you do not want another blockage. Also, bun noses are even more sensitive than dog noses, so smelly to you is reeking to him.

As for food… some buns, even without genetic abnormalities, don’t do well with pellets or veg. Probably because bins in the wild eat primarily grass/hay. But that’s not to say your little guy needs a hay-only diet – it’s just that after a blockage caused by too MANY pellets, it’s not unusual to need a hay-only fast until his GI regulates.

Since he’s still a wee bub, mixing in alfalfa hay is great. If you notice that he tolerates the pellet ‘treats’ well, you can also up those to a teaspoon twice a day (but I would still feed them as treats so he doesn’t gobble them up all at once – the idea is to encourage him to continue the high hay consumption).

Tiny bit of pumpkin supplement is ok, but parsley root I would cut out and introduce greens since Bug is almost 12 weeks now. Start with parsley since it’ll have a familiar flavour, but careful to introduce only one new green per week, and in tiny quantities to avoid gastric shock. Also look at the Bunny Info tab at the top of this page to get to the list of greens that should be fed only occasionally due to high oxalic acid or calcium content.

Finally, remember: a healthy bun will eat his own volume in hay every day. So cheer Bug on. He’s doing great!

[MissManders]

Thanks for the info. I am torn on the mat, the smell is my only concern, though I have to be down sniffing right on it to smell it, and he hasnt acted weird around it. I don’t see how he can possibly try to chew it at all, its completely flat with no texture to get his teeth on, and he has shown zero interest since its underneath him. Every edge of the mat are on the outside of his cage — while he is in the cage, its just a flat surface, no edges to nibble at. It allows us to take his top cage piece off from his base and put it almost directly on the floor, which he likes way way better since its easy to get in / out. Having the base adds a few inch lip that he doesn’t care for. But if the smell may be harmful or annoying to him, I will look into setting up some sort of ramp or steps that he may like just fine to get in and out. He could try to nibble on the edges when he has his cage door open and able to go into his play area, but we only allow that when we are present anyway.

He loves to be able to dart back into his cage with ease when the mood strikes him though, when we had it set up the other way with a simple ramp set up, we found that he wasnt often going back into the cage portion which is where the litter box, hay etc are at, which is of course an issue.

I know they love to chew, but the setup as it is I am less concerned with potential chewing then the smell bugging the bug. We did use it all day today, and he didnt act bothered by it or unusual around it, I just wonder if such a smell can be harmful in itself. Having the cage sit straight on the linoleum doesn’t work real great as it slides easily, and he gets no traction on it and goes ice skating lol.

If the smell is a big concern and the chewing is still a potential concern despite it being flat, I will definitely look into other options, I am overly protective and worrisome as it is I will make sure he is living in the healthiest happiest and safest place possible.

EDIT: Oops… I may have used MissManders account on accident (This is ‘dad’ JuJoo). Didn’t think about who’s account was on the laptop haha.

[Bam]

I once had to air out a memory foam pillow (for humans) on the balcony for a whole week, the smell was so strong. But after that week, it was perfectly ok =)

I just love hearing he’s eating so much hay! They’re supposed to eat a pile of hay the size of themselves every day, but that’s of course a rough estimate since it doesn’t say how compacted the pile should be. Hay is SO the best thing for a bun that’s had tummy issues. (Hay is actually so the best thing for anybunny, come to think of it). The alfalfa will provide the extra protein and calcium a growing bun needs. You can weigh him weekly if you feel you want to make sure he’s not losing weight on this diet. I weigh my Bam in a bowl on my digital kitchen scales. It didn’t take him long to get used to sitting in a bowl for the weighing.

[joea64]

As far as hay goes, I just make a small mountain at one end of the litterbox twice a day and let the buns go at it. I know I’ve put enough in there when either Panda or Fernando is more or less hidden by the mound. I got 1/3 bale of mixed hay from Friends of Rabbits Saturday, which came in five highly compacted squares/rectangles; I put three of them in the almost-empty storage bin and it’s full to the top now even after I’ve pulled off several meals’ worth, I still have two spare compacted squares to hand in the bag. I guess I’d better get an extra bin…

[JuJooGuppy]

Hmm. Not sure if the little guy really doesnt tolerate pellets at all or what, but he has already slowed way way back down to concerning levels.. still happy and playful, but his poop went from a factory back to small pellets / very infrequent. He will still eat alfalfa like mad, and some orchard, and we are giving pumpkin.. but we are having to cut ALL pellets. Really hope he pulls back out of it quickly, I didn’t think 10-20 pellets in a day would cause sucha sudden drastic change like this. I get to feel horrible all over again…

At least he was staying well hydrated and eating lots yesterday, he drank a LOT of water and ate a good amount of hay. The pellets are really the only thing I can think of causing such a rapid swing in the wrong direction.. its been really the only change. We’ve been limiting the alfalfa a bit, so I don’t think its that. Anyone ever have a bunny that couldn’t tolerate pellets, at all…? Man, he can be a stressful little guy. I don’t want to have to try to go get motility meds all over …

Edit: Well after a belly rub this morning we did let out a little pile of smaller / harder poo’s.. not the super tiny ones like when it was really bad, but not normal size again either. We really hadnt changed his diet much aside from maybe a slight increase in alfalfa, and the 10-20 maybe 30 pellets in a day, and I started out doing 5-10 a day just increasing a little each day as he seemed fine. So I really donno, seems like It either has to be the pellets, or alfalfa maybe, but don’t fully know yet.

Here’s to hoping for a quick return to normal today.

[Bam]

Cut all pellets. Some buns are sensitive to some ingredients. BB herself has a bun that’s been tested allergic to timothy. Since practically all good quality rabbit pellets have some amount of timothy in them, her bun has to be pellets-free.

The alfalfa and grass hay should be enough to make him thrive.

[JuJooGuppy]

Yeah that’s what we are doing. Glad I had started him on tiny amounts. He’s still pooping, had some regular size poops, but they are darker again, and he has had longer periods between them (6-8 hrs was the long stretch, now a few hrs), so its clear its throwing him off already just from that little bit itseems.

He’s still eating drinking and playing etc, so I dont think we are headed for anotherbad spell so soon after recovery.

I do have a concern still, is that maybe alfalfa in general is tied to the issue. The pellets we currently have are alfalfa based OxBow young bunny.. where as the pellets when we bought him, we are unsure, but most likely standard timothy pellets. Hes been eating alfalfa separate, but that makes me wonder if it was the combo of alfalfa hay and pellets, and that he doesn’t tolerate alfalfa well, like what you’re saying with the timothy allergy.

We will cut the pellets and limit the alfalfa for a bit, then slightly increase the alfalfa to get a feel for it, I think. Poor Bug

[JuJooGuppy]

Oh, I’ve been trying to research more about it, but I am curious, is oat hay perfectly fine to give as much as they want? We are trying to keep a good variety, right now its timothy, orchard and then some alfalfa in limited amounts. He is a bit picky, some days not wanting one of the hays entirely (yesterday, timothy was off the menu, alfalfa was in high demand, and orchard was a “If I HAVE to eat one” lol. Today, he’s hunting certain pieces of timothy. Alfalfa has been the most consistently sought after, but again we are limiting it till we know for sure he handles it fine, not to mention we don’t want him to get too stuck on it when it comes time to cut it down in his diet.

So is oat hay good / safe to add? Are there any others we can be trying that are safe in unlimited amounts? Or even limited amounts?

Thanks bunches, as always!!

[joea64]

The San Diego chapter of the House Rabbit Society, for one, strongly talks up oat hay on its website; it’s been a while since I read that page but IIRC they say it’s especially good for promoting gut motility or something like that.

[JuJooGuppy]

Cool, thanks that is good to know. I’ll have to go down and grab some tomorrow.

His poops are looking roughly normal size, but much further apart and not as large of quantities as id expect, as well as pretty dark, so still not back to 100% but at least I am seeing some move through him, we’re not back to square one.

[Q8bunny]

My bun eats VERY limited pellets, a HUGE amount of oat, orchard, timothy, and meadow, and varied greens (with the odd treats thrown in or stolen). Even so, we’re going nearly pellet free as of next summer (pnce I have access to my dad’s garden again). There are WAY too many fillers in pellets (even in good ones) and I want to cut them out. So it’s totally possible BUG is reacting to them.

(((Bug bug)))

[JuJooGuppy]

He seems to be back to near normal again, so I suppose there is the chance it was a mere hiccup, but I had noticed his poops getting smaller and then he stopped for a good 8 hour period or so, and had smaller poops for a bit. He’s mostly come right back out of it, so that’s good. So we are left deciding whether it was just a unrelated slow spot, or the pellets were already taking a negative effect in the small amounts he was receiving. For now, we are siding on the path of caution and removing the pellets entirely — if he goes through another slow spot or 2 like this one again in the next few days, then we have a pretty good idea that it may just be that he has a bit of a sporadic tummy, and the pellets were unrelated. If he’s a little poop factory all week w/o the pellets though, he will just have to go without for good.

Nonetheless, he’s being the happy little goofball he always is, with binky’s and now that he has figured out we keep most of his goodies in or near the fridge, any time you go to the fridge you suddenly have furry feet, lol. He starts running circles around you, standing on his hind feet trying to stand as tall as he can to see what you might of got him, lol. So cute. He will chase us around if he thinks we got him something. We may or may not use this to get him to hop around and watch his little ears bounce while he sees what we are up to, lol.

Pretty sure I will end up dying from a cuteness overload with little Bug hoppin’ around!

[Q8bunny]

I would not fault you for a moment for wanting to indulge in hoppy cuteness.

[DanaNM]

I think you can trust your instincts on this and cut out pellets, as long as you feed a variety of hays, and start introducing greens. Dandelion and cilantro are good ones to start with. There are lots of threads on this forum about going pellet free. Usually it isn’t done so young, but the main takeaway is that you’ll need to feed a wider variety of greens, and a variety of hays (which you are already doing).

I tend to think of pellets as fortified breakfast cereal. If a kid has a deficiency in some area of their diet, the fortified cereal will help them get essential vitamins and minerals. Of course breakfast cereal is not really that great for you most of the time, and it isn’t necessary in order to get all your vitamins, but I’m sure it helps many kids in many parts of the country to not be deficient in their B vitamins. Same thing with pellets. Not really the best thing, but if you can’t feed the full variety for whatever reason, it can fill the mineral gaps.

It might be especially good to look into some wild forage in your area. Everything is pretty dried up where I live, but dandelion, sow thistle, and plantain (both narrow and broad leaf) are all very nutritious and high fiber. Fennel and peppermint are also good for bunny tummies.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

He certainly enjoyed his new Oat Hay today, whether because it was a new flavor or he just loves it in general I can’t say lol.

This week, we are doing Parsley greens, since we have so much of it from the roots we took. Once we have slowly introduced a green to his system, how much should a bunny of his size (Roughly 1 – 1.5lbs last we checked) be eating of them in a day? And with him doing better, we are cutting the pumpkin back to a treat status… but haven’t decided exactly how much is safe on a daily basis, or whether it needs to be less often than daily..?

I also saw OxBow ‘Botanical Hay’ while at the store, it looked like it was Timothy with some various herbs / plants mixed in to sweeten it. Is it a safe hay to give on a daily basis?

As for nutrients, we also saw little nutrient treats that we thought about getting to make sure he is getting all he should. They are from OxBow. Would it be a safe / good idea to be providing our young guy with those? Perhaps every couple of days or something?

As for the plants, I want to make sure I am looking for the right thing…

Sow Thistle, I see a variety of pictures, I take it there are a variety of the plants? I recognize multiple of them as being around our area, though not sure if I can find any this time of year. This one, “Canada Thistle”, is one I see around here http://bcinvasives.ca/images/photos/_full/Can_Thistle001_LScott.jpg

As for Plantain, I know we have this plant around here: http://www.offthegridnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/plantain-healingearthfarmDOTblogspotDOTcom.jpg Is that what you are referring to?

I would want to be sure I am picking the right plants, so probably would post pics on these boards or something to triple check.

Seems like with being on essentially a hay only diet, he spends a lot of his time eating now lol, the pellets he would spend a fair bit of time flopping lazily about. (Which, he hasn’t really been doing any happy flops any more, not that he seems sad or in pain or anything, but just havent had his happy little flops. We are hoping that he is still getting over the vet visit, but im not entirely sure.)

[joea64]

My own two buns spend a LOT of time eating their hay too; they have pellets (a total of 1/4 cup of Oxbow timothy for both of them) in the morning and spring mix, at least 4 cups (2 cups for each of them) in the evening, but the bulk of their diet is mixed hays refreshed twice daily with a big handful at least equal to their body size into the litterbox plus more in the hay feeder. I haven’t timed it as yet but I estimate that in the evenings, after supper, they spend at least an hour chewing through the mound of evening hay, sometimes 20-30 minutes at a stretch.

By the way, the commonly accepted figure for a bun’s daily greens ration is at least 1 cup per 2 pounds of adult body weight per day. Washing the greens before serving them not only cleans them but provides them with additional water, since a domestic rabbit eating their optimum diet gets much or most of their water from green vegetables, using their water dish as a backup.

[Q8bunny]

I use the botanical hay instead of plain timothy cuz it smells amazing! So yes. Daily unlimited is fine.

As for green leafy veg, I would say since you’re not feeding pellets, aim for one cup per 2lb of bun daily and use non-leafy veg and fresh fruit as daily small treats.

[Q8bunny]

I use the botanical hay instead of plain timothy cuz it smells amazing! So yes. Daily unlimited is fine.

As for green leafy veg, I would say since you’re not feeding pellets, aim for one cup per 2lb of bun daily and use non-leafy veg and fresh fruit as daily small treats.

[Q8bunny]

I use the botanical hay instead of plain timothy cuz it smells amazing! So yes. Daily unlimited is fine.

As for green leafy veg, I would say since you’re not feeding pellets, aim for one cup per 2lb of bun daily and use non-leafy veg and fresh fruit as daily small treats.

[DanaNM]

That IS the right plantain (narrow leaf plantain is also safe), but NOT the right thistle. Here’s sow thistle: http://www.ediblewildfood.com/sow-thistle.aspx
There are a few species of sow thistle that are all safe for humans and rabbits. It basically looks like spiky dandelion, but the key is that it does NOT have spines on the main veins and stems of the leaves (there is a poisonous species that does). Since ppl eat it, there are lots of good guides online.

Parsley is high in oxalic acid, so it should be fed in limited amounts, and in rotation with other veggies in that group:
Here’s a full list:
http://rabbit.org/suggested-vegetables-and-fruits-for-a-rabbit-diet/

That list is massive, and often things are not available all year. Also they list Kale as Low in oxalic acid, but many people list it as high. It also has super high calcium content. I actually treat all brassica’s (broccoli, kale, bok choi, broccoli, etc.) with caution. They can be very nutritious, but can also cause problems in some bunnies (gas, bladder sludge, etc). I try to think of things in terms of plant family also, to make sure they get a wider nutrient profile. (there is a kick-a** cook- book called Vegetable Literacy, by Deborah Madison…. if you’re into that sort of thing)

To simplify things, I would pick 3-4 things to start with, from the low-oxalic list, and introduce 1 per week as Q8bunny mentioned.
With my two, I aim to give them minimum 3 types of leafy veggies per day, twice a day. There are certain things they can have a lot of, and some things that are good but only in limited amounts. For my 9 and 5 lb monsters, I aim for about 7 loosely packed cups per day!

My simplified list of veggies that I typically feed from looks like this (this is not exclusive, but is what is usually available at my local market/garden):

~75% should come from this group:
Romaine or Red leaf lettuce (really any fancy lettuce, NO iceberg. some folks bun’s don’t do well with any lettuce… so treat this with caution)
Dandelion/ sow thistle
cilantro
fennel (leafy parts and the bulbs)
basil
mint
carrot tops
plantain if available

~25% MAX ( these have either high oxalic acid, or high calcium, or both)
Spinach
kale
chard
beet tops
parsley

I think I know the Oxbox treats you mention. The digestive ones? I’ve tried them. One sick bunny I fostered loved them. Not sure if they helped him at all, but they didn’t hurt. Bertha turned her nose up at them. Since Bug doesn’t do well with pellets, I would be reluctant to try them until you figure out what’s bugging him in the pellets (no pun intended). You might try some of the Flopper’s botanical blends though (they have them on this sight).

And yes, eating hay all day is great. Good for his teeth, his tummy, and his little bunny brain, as rabbit brains are basically wired to eat ALL DAY.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

I don’t see pumpkin listed on there, now that he is doing well we are cutting it down significantly, but should we cut it out completely until such a time as he is having tummy issues? He is around 1-2 lbs, so we had been cutting down to around 1 tsp heavily watered down throughout the day (He still loves it even w/ it being watered down, and it gives him a good fiber / water source still.)

I dont want to keep giving him any if we shouldnt, he just likes it so much lol.

Do you personally limit alfalfa even in young bunnies? We have been keeping it fairly limited, maybe a few handfuls in a day roughly (Maybe 1/2 – 1 cup a couple times a day currently?) Don’t want to be under or over doing it, I know I have seen some people say unlimited alfalfa for young buns, but I also read people saying unlimited pellets for young buns, too, soo being super cautious here and trying to avoid under doing things too.

On the plantain plants, should I feed the leaves only, or can he eat the little seed strands mixed in, too? I almost think we will start with that plant this week since its readily available, pretty sure I saw some yesterday and know for sure they are all over our property (23 acres, mostly wooded though.) We were doing parsley this week, but since that needs to stay limited anyway, and its been a few days of it already, I think itll be safe to start another new veggie. So either the plantain or lettuce as I know we can get those.

With dandelions and that sow thistle, is it leaf only, or leaf + stems?

As always, thanks a billion for the help. I apologize for all the questions, but given what he has gone through and that we are having to change his diet from what we expected, I want to be extra sure we are doing the right things to keep him on the healthy path!

[DanaNM]

I’m not sure about the plantain stems, I have usually just fed the leaves. For dandelions and sow thistle (which are super closely related), the stems and flowers are fine too. I usually just harvest the leaves since I want the plant to set seed for next year.

I would try plantain over lettuce since it has much high fiber content. It is typically very well tolerated by bunnies with sensitive tummies. If you have lots available, you can also dry it and feed it dried in times when it isn’t in season.

I have very little experience with young bunnies, so I’m not sure about the alfalfa amount. You might want to scan some other forums that allow discussion of breeding, as they might have more info. Have you been tracking his weight? I think if he is gaining weight slowly, then the amount you are feeding is prob good. If he is losing weight, or not gaining, you might need to bump up the alfalfa.

I would keep reducing the pumpkin until you’re down to nothing. It is good for fiber and water, but it does have some natural sugar, so it’s best reserved for emergencies when you just need him to eat something.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

He’s back to being a fussy butt about eating his hays, being extra picky. Out of the oats, he only wants to eat the little seed pod things, and alfalfa, and thats about it… I normally refresh his hay a bit, but he is being super picky and I am trying to get him to eat more of his hay in general. We have a bunch of types mixed in there, he just wants to be a butt about it.. I am hoping leaving him with a big pile of hay that he will start to be hungry enough to just eat more of the stems and such, but I also dont want him to make himself go hungry waiting for his favorite bits.

He also didnt particularly like the plantain unfortunately.. ate most of a leaf and decided he had enough of that adventure, lol. We plan to keep trying tonight / tomorrow.. but if he wont eat more, I guess we will try something else more quickly than we would have? Since we are trying to find greens he likes.

He needs to stop being a fussy fuzzy butt and eat all of his food, lol. Don’t want new problems to come from him being picky.

We also weighed him, he was 1 lb when we took him to the vet ~2 weeks ago now? He weighed 2 lbs exact today, so he has put on weight at least. not sure if that is a good rate or not. But he seems healthy and happy, he  just gets frantically excited when he thinks he is getting treats, like parsley or alfalfa, he loses his mind lol.

You ever have your buns be so picky about grabbing only certain pieces of the hay? I am hoping leaving it in there longer causes him to eat more of it. I know he will eat it or has at least, ive seen him go to town on it. but once he figured out his favorite pieces.. .he started being a butt.

[Q8bunny]

Everyone knows the best piece of hay is always buried at the bery bottom centre of the pile

[DanaNM]

Bertha will only eat the seeds out of oat hay, or will at least dig through all of it to get to them first (and then pee on everything else), so I stopped giving her oat hay! I think you should consult a vet about the alfalfa hay question. My instinct is that since he’s so young and not getting his young rabbit pellets (which have alfalfa in them), it’s prob fine to give large quantities of it, assuming his poops are still looking good. But again, I know very little about young rabbit nutrition, so prob best to ask an expert.

Bertha also doesn’t go crazy for plantain, but will eat it eventually. Sometimes things are an acquired taste, so him even eating a bit sounds OK. There’s a fine line with bunnies… you have to find things they like, but they also can’t just have treat herbs all the time. Bunston was kind of picky, so I had to feed him his favorite veggies last once he was bonded with Bertha. If I gave him a whole salad at once he would just eat the things he liked first, then Bertha would eat everything else, so he wasn’t getting the balance I wanted him too. So I’d feed them their romaine first, then the kale, then the cilantro, etc.

You might try carrot tops or dandelions next. Those are usually scarfed by my buns readily, are very nutritious, and well tolerated by sensitive tummies.

Oh and as far as being picky about hay, try putting a smaller amount at a time, so it’s always “fresh”.
Also, not sure where you live, but my bunnies LOVE the hay from Sierra Valley Hay Company. I order online from them. I never saw Bunston eat that much hay until I switched to them.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

My big thing is I have no clue where to acquire things like dandelions if they are not just growing on the property at the time. I think I may have actualy found the sow thistles you posted, I need to take a pic and upload it see if it looks right. But there currently are no dandelions growing, and I have no idea where id acquire them at this point. Carrot tops, I imagine I can find store bought carrots that still have the tops to them, so thats a bit more doable if not expensive.

Really looks like we should be starting a garden of these things, haha. At least next year we can easily harvest a lot of dandelions and such.

As for the alfalfa, yeah like I say I have sene people say unlimited is fine for a growing bun, but part o fus limiting it is the concern he will get too fussy and ONLY want alfalfa moving forward when he needs to be switched off. But we have been meaning to start looking into other vet options, I will be sure to ask about it. So far I think he is doing fairly well how we are doing it, he is growing still and seems quite energetic.

Since I dont have a lot of things readily availble, I think we are going to try to pick up one of the lettuce types to try next, unless I can figure out where i ight acquire dandelions, just gotta get him eating some form of leafy greens on a daily basis and very soon. His little stasis fit kinda put us off schedule as we didnt want to introduce anything when he was having problems.

We are up in washington state, too… I will look into the hay company, we have just been using OxBow since its a name we know, and their hay smells pretty good for a store packaged hay (We originally got a kaytee brand timothy, and the difference in smell quality is crazy. So much yummier smelling from OxBow.

[DanaNM]

They sell dandelion at my local farmers market, and they will also give me carrot tops for free
I swear my bunnies eat so much better than I do!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[joea64]

Ha! I expect they have a better/healthier diet than me, too.

[JuJooGuppy]

I got Bug to eat more of the plantain today, happily in fact, though this afternoon I have found a couple soft fecal pellets.. I am worried I upset his tummy, because since he was showing so little interest in the plantain we bought cilantro, and I gave him a tiny tiny piece of it to see if he would eat it, with the plan being going with that this week instead of the plantain if I couldnt get him to eat more of it. But since he was willing to eat plantain, I continued with that, and no more cilantro till next week. Would the tiny piece cause soft poop? Ive only found 5 or so soft pellets thus far.. should I stop plantain till its normal again?

The other concern would be the sugar in the pumpkin is throwing him off, wehave stopped it entirely now, though. Are soft pellets common when introducing a new green?

[DanaNM]

Yep, soft poops are not uncommon from new greens, or too much of something. It doesn’t sound like too much cause for concern though if it’s just a few soft pellets, especially if they are fully formed.

If he continues having soft poops today, stop the plantain. But if it’s just those few, I would just reduce the plantain amount for his next portion. If the soft poops get worse, then it might not agree with him.

It’s going to be a trial and error process with his diet, so I think being careful to only change one thing at a time, and gradually, so he has time to adjust, will be important so you can actually track what agrees with him and what doesn’t.

I also just remembered, if you can eventually get hold of critical care (which I recommend, you can get it from amazon), some members make “critical care cookies” for their sensitive tummy buns. Might be good moving forward with him. Many members also recommend a pro-biotic, Benebac, for sensitive tummies and post-antibiotic buns.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[JuJooGuppy]

I will have to look into the pro-biotic, as he is just about to run out of his antibiotic the vet put him on. I actually can get critical care down where we shop here, and hadnt heard of doing critical care ‘cookies’ before so I will look into that! Aside from the 5 wet / soft pellets, he went back to normal quickly, I mean they may be a tad soft but not wet or anything. So I think it was probably the small taste of cilantro since it was a poor choice on my part. We are running a week of the plantain now, gradually doing a little more each week till we get close to the daily amount for him, now that he is nom nom’ing it down. Probably try cilantro next week, and see if he has the soft pellet problem from it. If so, we will have to avoid it…

So, a question w/ introducing the greens.. say next week we introduce the cilantro officially, and he gets soft poop problems and we decide its not a good choice for him. How many days of him being back to normal poop should we wait before starting a new green? Basically, if he has issues with a green and we only feed it for a day, then he is pooping fine after that day or so, can we start onto the next one, or do we need to wait a longer period despite not feeding the new green long, if that makes any sense?

I plan to post a thread up w/ pics and a short clip of Bug for ya to see finally, been meaning to do so. He’s been happy as can be! Hasn’t been giving me kisses on the nose any more.. still loves his kisses, but not wanting to give them, stubborn butt. He also took a step backward as far as picking him up goes, we used to be able to pick him up briefly for short distances, but now he reacts poorly if he thinks you are going to try to pick him up. He lets me pick up his front paws and nudge him around etc, but picking him up kicks his run away mode into gear sadly… Hopefully we can work him past it.

[Q8bunny]

Always wait at least a few days to make sure good poop is here to stay

[DanaNM]

Yeah, second waiting at least a few days before trying something else if one doesn’t agree with him.

That’s great that he’s eating the plantain. (It’s a bonus that it can be harvested for free!). Sometimes they can develop tastes for things after a few tries. I’ve read that wild herbivores will sample a little bit of something they aren’t familiar with to make sure it isn’t poisonous, then go back and eat more if it is safe. So maybe he’s just using his instincts!

Just wanted to mention (and you might already be doing this), when you add a new veg, keep feeding the old veg too, just swap out a bit, so that you can work up to feeding at least 3 veggies at a time. I also think the new veggie will have less chance of upsetting him if it’s mixed it with lots of familiar stuff. I think you could either work up to feeding the full recommended amount of one thing first, and then slowly swap out some for new things, or, you could work up to the portion you’ll end up with of plantain, then just add the new things to get up to the full amount you need. Not sure if that makes sense, or sounds kind of rambling…. but basically don’t just swap all of the plantain for whatever you decide to try next.

Overtime, with these slow increases, he will build up a healthy gut flora and will hopefully be able to handle new things more and more easily.

And yes, he is such a cutie!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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