Mickey, and her health problems

[ThursaLou]

Maintenance and Housing
Is your bunny housed indoors or outdoors?

She’s an indoor rabbit.

Does your bunny live with other bunnies?
If yes, are they bonded?

She does not, I can’t let my other rabbit near her because Mickey ( the one I’m posting  about)  is aggressive towards everyone, but they used to be bonded and all cute together.

How much exercise does your bunny get per day?

She used to have 24/7 of the freedom, but now, since her health getting worse, I let her out for whenever I/we can actually watch her.

How often do you clean the litter box?

.. their litterboxes are always clean.

How often do you groom your bunny?

With Mickey, it’s a two people job, because she bites and growls.

Spay/Neuter

Is your bunny spayed/neutered?

Yup.

If so, for how long?

She’s been neutered when she was little, but old enough.

Pooping and Diet – Very Important

What does your bunny eat normally:

How much hay and what type?

There are no varieties of hay, so it’s just one type, and we pick the greenest of them all.

How much pellets and what type?

About a tbsp for each meal.

How much veggies and what types?

No veggies, just leafy greens.

How many treats and what types?

The only treat I give them is a hay/herb mix, with like chamomile, dill and so on. They absolutely love it.

Our vet  once said that the – best treat to give to them, is the most boring one. So we live by it.

Anything else not listed?

When was the last time your bunny ate? 

She has been munching on hay.

What was the last thing your bunny ate?

Hay.
When was the last time your bunny pooped?

I don’t know, but she does poop, her stomach stops quite regularly but I usually stop it from happening.

How did your bunny’s most recent poops look (round and firm, misshapen, small and hard, soft/mushy, runny, etc.) ?

Usually large, oval – small, hard, it depends  if she’s going into stasis (which she does very, very often) So if she goes into stasis – they are quite hard and small.  Otherwise they are really, really large and oval. And then quite often she leaks brown liquid with some poops. (Which is the problem I’m writing about)

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this bunny?

2 years. Got her very young from a pet store.
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms?

She’s a megacolon rabbit. So she tends to go into stasis once every two weeks, or once a month, however, that is prevented, because there are multiple signs that I know of . Our vet recommended to give her extra liquid – wet greens (leaves) and cucumber, and it works very well for her.

Anyway,  if her poops go back to normal, we cut back with the liquid and the special force feed medicine. Lately (for about a month..) she’s been leaking loads and loads of brown liquid. When she had the whole room to herself, the floor was covered with brown spots – so were the furniture. So we had to move her elsewhere. 

We give her burgess herb hay  to see if that’ll help with the weird brown liquid (she really loves it, so it usually gets her to eat more), but it does not seem to be working.

And so I’m reaching out as to what to do in this situation. I know that our vets won’t know what to do, really.  Perhaps someone has a good advice on why is that happening and what should we do about it.

How long ago did you first notice these symptoms?

Ever since we got her, she started going into stasis and had weirdly shaped poops.

She’s been leaking the liquid from time to time, but in small amounts, and quite rarely, too.
Have you consulted a vet?

Yes, she was a frequent visitor at the vets, when we  couldn’t manage to get her stasis under control -they are not rabbit savy vets and they’re the only ones we can actually get to, they did try their best to research her case, but the best advice they gave us was to give her extra liquid whenever she goes into stasis.

Have you started any treatment for the symptoms?

She’s had special food, which did not help her, she has all sorts of medicine (pain, force feed and a thing called fiberplex, that we give her for her stasis)

Was your bunny physically ill or injured when you got them?

No, but the vets found parasites in her poop, so I’m guessing she wasn’t de-wormed? And she got the parasite treatment after that. (When she was about 1y old)

How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all?

She’s become really, really aggressive towards everyone – us, and the other rabbit included. I really wanted to bond them, but I know it’ll be impossible because of Mickeys illness.

[ThursaLou]

I’m sorry, since I was afraid to lose the thread again, I couldn’t reread my answers – so the pellets I give them are burgess nuggets with mint.

I also give them leafy green mix, and/or dandelion leaves.

Also homegrown basil, dill, parsley and two different mints as a snack.

 

[DanaNM]

I’m sorry you are going through such a hard time with her 🙁

Have you read this info?https://www.vgr1.com/megacolon/

There are some tips there that may be worth trying.

I’m curious about the increase in aggression. Did that happen when you brought the second bunny home? Or maybe it’s tied to always having to give her meds?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[ThursaLou]

Thank you for the reply!

I’ve read most of the articles about megacolon rabbits,  they rarely tell what to do in those situations, because the treatment is different for every rabbit. But I’ll definitely read this one!

The thing is, Mickey is the new rabbit. The other one is so sweet and loving, and is a year older than Mickey. When I bonded them, Mickey was about a year old, it was going great until she started to fight the other rabbit. 😬 Mickey never showed any affection towards Tursa, Tursa did all the licks and cuddles.

What I’ve read, is that megacolon rabbits tend to be very agressive, not from medicine,  but from the illness itself, if that makes sense 😕

So sad, they were adorable together.

[DanaNM]

That’s so sad. 🙁 It’s true it can be very hard for a sick bunny to properly bond with another bun.

One thing I haven’t tried but that might be worth considering is free-feeding pellets for Mickey. Since megacolon buns tend to have issues keeping weight on due to cecal dysfunction, it might help.

If things are stable the way they are, it may not be good to mess with things too much, but you also might experiment with pellet brands to see if one agrees with him better.

Due you currently have the bunnies living side-by-side? Wondering if changing up the living situation might help with the aggression.

Is there a specific trigger for the aggression? Such as cleaning her area, or reaching towards her too quickly?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[ThursaLou]

Mickey used to be underweight,  she’s in a really healthy weight for months now😌 Last time she was at her lowest, she was staying at the vets for days, because she was in a critical condition.  So I’m worried if I free fed her, she’d overeat and bloat.

she’s obsessed with food, she’ll try to climb up the table, if she knows there’s food (that’s the reason she’ll never be a 100% free roam rabbit)

Due you currently have the bunnies living side-by-side? Wondering if changing up the living situation might help with the aggression.

They both live in a separate room. I never let them meet, if I do, one has to be behind the bars, for safety.

Is there a specific trigger for the aggression? Such as cleaning her area, or reaching towards her too quickly?

There are some – Mickey guards food like a dog (I was surprised about that one..)

When I reached to her to give her more dandelions, when she was already eating some, she bit me. What I’ve noticed she won’t let anyone come near the leafy greens. I’ve never seen her getting aggressive because of hay or pellets. I don’t actually go near her when she eats, but I sometimes add something to her bowl, that’s how I know her reaction.

Also, when I reach to pet her, she can snap, that one has happened several times.  Like she lets me to pet her for a while, and then, snaps.

And then, when I have to clip her nails, sometimes she’s really nice and lets me, other times she’s growling and trying to bite, so I have to ask for help, because I just can’t 😅

I feel like her triggers are a bad mood?

[DanaNM]

Hmmmm, I wonder if it could have to do with her vision? Rabbits can’t see very well up close, so perhaps she is getting startled when you reach close to her face?

Maybe you could try using a vocal cue or some other sound anytime you are going to give her food (such as a clicker or a kissy noise)? Then she sould hear it and know more food was coming?

I’m less sure about her snapping at you during petting. 🙁 I’ve alerted the other moderators to see if they have any other thoughts.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Wick & Fable]

Re: the petting and then the “snap”, it makes me wonder if she actually is enjoying the petting in that instance. My Fable is a very anxious rabbit and there are times when she will receive pets, but body language cues tell me she is not actually enjoying it. If she were a rabbit inclined to biting as a reaction, I imagine she would try and “snap” at me once the petting was over.

Admittedly I’m not 100% clear on the timeline and multiple rabbits situation (it’s me; not your writing!), but the food-related aggression — is there any way it is scent related? Whether it be you carrying the other rabbit’s scent, or you smelling different?

My other rabbit, Wick, is very sociable and rarely turns down handling and pets; however, there are times when he is “alert” due to perceiving someone is invading his territory (even if it’s just me), something has caught him off guard, etc.. I’m wondering if there are any body language cues you can become aware of to indicate whether it is an OK time to interact with her.

Also, although things happen due to megacolon, when a rabbit is intermittently moody/aggressive, I do wonder about underlying causes of pain/distress, whether it is a flaring medical condition that is pre-existing or potentially new.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[ThursaLou]

Thank you for the response! I’m sorry I find it hard to use this website in the mobile version,  so I can’t fix any typing errors 😅

So:

Re: the petting and then the “snap”, it makes me wonder if she actually is enjoying the petting in that instance.

There are times she’s super sweet, she’ll, you know, teeth purr because she enjoys it (I think it was called teethpurring for rabbits?).  And other times she’ll show the same enjoyment and just snap.

Admittedly I’m not 100% clear on the timeline and multiple rabbits situation (it’s me; not your writing!), but the food-related aggression — is there any way it is scent related? Whether it be you carrying the other rabbit’s scent, or you smelling different?

I’ve had Mickey for more than two years. She used to live in the same room with my other bunny, they used to be friends. They are quite familiar with eachothers scent – whenever I bring them dandelion leaves, she gets them first (because she’s in the closest room), so there’s no way her food might have other rabbit’s scent🤔

She also tends to grab the snacks (basil, parsley leaves) and run away to eat them elsewhere.

My other rabbit, Wick, is very sociable and rarely turns down handling and pets; however, there are times when he is “alert” due to perceiving someone is invading his territory (even if it’s just me), something has caught him off guard, etc.. I’m wondering if there are any body language cues you can become aware of to indicate whether it is an OK time to interact with her.

Well, my other rabbit is super sweet and has never ever bit me – that’s why Mickey really did surprise me.

I don’t know about the body language cues, I just know that whenever she growls, I’ll just leave her be. I’ve never really noticed anything. It really does depend on how she’s feeling that day, because some days she’ll even ask for the pets.

Also, although things happen due to megacolon, when a rabbit is intermittently moody/aggressive, I do wonder about underlying causes of pain/distress, whether it is a flaring medical condition that is pre-existing or potentially new.

Well, she’s had it ever since we got her (megacolon & symptoms)

She used to be even more aggressive once she got her hormones kicking in. I don’t really remember what she did and how she acted, because it was about 2 years ago.

We knew we had to get her neutered and we thought that it would fix her anger issues. (We were planning to get her neutered anyway, obviously)

We brought her to the vet once more (after she was neutered) – because she was still really aggressive – and they said they might have missed something during the surgery or she might have been to young, so they injected some sort of “implant” under her skin, it was supposed to help her with the hormones. It was something capsule-like and it dissolved after 6 months. I don’t think it did anything, but I think she became much calmer with age.

 

Is it supposed to be normal for her? Is it her personality?

 

 

[Wick & Fable]

I think there’s a blood test or something they can run to see what levels of hormones are coursing through the rabbit. It is possible that this may be hormonal. I understand resources (both for you and the vet) may be limited, but it may be something to explore.

I will share that my sociable rabbit, Wick, has different types of teeth purrs. I’ve identified that he does a teeth “crunch” or “click”, rather than purr, when he is not enjoying petting. Eyes tend to be a good indicator as well. If they (and the ears) are open and alert, I find that to be a sign they aren’t too into it.

Re: food presentation and scent, is it possible that YOU smell like the other rabbit due to recent interaction? I wonder if maybe you can test by rubbing a towel on the other rabbit and seeing how she reacts to the towel.

.. It’s not advantageous for a prey animal, like a rabbit, to have an “aggressive” personality– they can’t win fights, so I find it unusual. It would be less unusual if it was hormone-mediated, as hormones do drive those urges to defend territory, which is predominately via aggressive means.

This is also a long shot, but just in case, have you recently plugged in any of those sonic rodent deterrents? I’ve heard tell of apartments or people using them and they drive some rabbits absolutely bonkers when activated.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[ThursaLou]

I think there’s a blood test or something they can run to see what levels of hormones are coursing through the rabbit. It is possible that this may be hormonal. I understand resources (both for you and the vet) may be limited, but it may be something to explore.

Well, we decided that we’ll get her fully examined when we’ll move back to out country. We’ll be able to have our car there and we’ll get her to the best rabbit vet there is (because we actually can)

I have some blood test reports from when she was examined here, but they were done because of her stasis.

Anyway, we were planning on it, because someone there might actually know about her condition and might help us much more.

I will share that my sociable rabbit, Wick, has different types of teeth purrs. I’ve identified that he does a teeth “crunch” or “click”, rather than purr, when he is not enjoying petting. Eyes tend to be a good indicator as well. If they (and the ears) are open and alert, I find that to be a sign they aren’t too into it.

I’ll take some notes and see if she gives off any signs.  🙏🏼

Re: food presentation and scent, is it possible that YOU smell like the other rabbit due to recent interaction? I wonder if maybe you can test by rubbing a towel on the other rabbit and seeing how she reacts to the towel.

I did the test, as expected,  she did absolutely nothing – she did sniff the towel but that’s about it – no aggression,  no nothing.

.. It’s not advantageous for a prey animal, like a rabbit, to have an “aggressive” personality– they can’t win fights, so I find it unusual. It would be less unusual if it was hormone-mediated, as hormones do drive those urges to defend territory, which is predominately via aggressive means.

 

This is also a long shot, but just in case, have you recently plugged in any of those sonic rodent deterrents? I’ve heard tell of apartments or people using them and they drive some rabbits absolutely bonkers when activated.

Not really – we just moved apartments, so there’s  no way both houses would have rodent deterrents. Also, my other bunny does not react differently,  since she’s lived with me back when we were living in Latvia.

 

Thank you for your reply, but her aggression is not the biggest concern to me, rn (it can wait until we move back and get her fully examined by a savvy vet)

But it’s the best thing to do anyway, from what I can understand from your response.

 

I actually wrote here because – wherever she goes, she drips brown liquid and it’s a major problem for us, because she’s a free roam rabbit afterall. We can’t really take her to the vets, because I’ve seen them for the same problem, and they couldn’t say anything more than a Yes, it’s a symptom. They are good vets, but yes- like you said, limited resources.

So any advice on what to do about this, what medicine to try, what foods/supplements to give her would be appreciated. 🙏🏼

[DanaNM]

Ah, sorry to derail the discussion to be about behavior!

Regarding the brown liquid, I think @Moonlightbunny was dealing with something similar with Pinky, but I’m not sure if she was able to figure out a solution. 🙁

It’s tricky because you want to keep the gut contents very hydrated to prevent stasis, especially in a megacolon bun, so it seems like the problem is more one with absorption and cecal dysfunction. Have you tried any probiotics? I know some members have had success with Bene-bac. My vet also prescribed “poop shakes” from a healthy bun for a foster I had with cecal dysbiosis, so perhaps that could be something you could try (since you have a healthy bun already living near him).

With any changes I would just be sure to make them very slowly. Since his weight is stable and he hasn’t been in stasis, that is a very good thing, even if the brown liquid is an issue.

There are some tips on the disabled rabbits website for dealing with incontinence in rabbits, so perhaps those could be helpful? They have some suggestions using puppy pee pads and cage liners: http://www.disabledrabbits.com/bedding.html

I also found an older thread on similar issues that might have some useful info:

Mini lop GI issues- on and off liquid leakage for 2+ months- what to do??

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[ThursaLou]

It’s tricky because you want to keep the gut contents very hydrated to prevent stasis, especially in a megacolon bun, so it seems like the problem is more one with absorption and cecal dysfunction.

Exactly, it seems like the more liquid she gets, the more it dripps out, so we cut back on juicy things, because she drinks loads of water right now, because it’s hot outside.

Have you tried any probiotics? I know some members have had success with Bene-bac. My vet also prescribed “poop shakes” from a healthy bun for a foster I had with cecal dysbiosis, so perhaps that could be something you could try (since you have a healthy bun already living near him).

What’s a poop shake? I can’t find anything on it 😅

I used to have special pellets for her ( Pro-Fibre ) But back then our vets said they might help with her bloat and stasis and we never got another one, because it didn’t do much – but we’ll grab one tomorrow, maybe it’ll help now? 🤷🏻‍♀️

Also, I usually give her Fiberplex when she’s going into stasis (well, actually – right before she goes into stasis) it’s a pricy medicine, it works very well, but it’s unaffordable if given daily 😕

Another,  thing I give her is the recovery food, I mix it with water and she eats it right from the bowl, and it’s helped a lot for her stasis, but I’m scared if I gave her some now, she’d leak even more.

 

They spoke about a certain hay type that they gave their rabbit – but I have huge problem, since we currently live in Denmark,  I’ve never seen anything besides Meadow and alpine hay (alpine hay is what they currently have, meadow hay looks horrible).

So hopefully Pro-fibre pellets will be enough 😬🤞🤞

 

[Wick & Fable]

I’ll mention that probiotic use in the rabbit community has neutral to positive reviews. Some vets do not mention probiotics because there is the belief (which I believe is scientifically validated?) that probiotics currently on the market don’t actually contain the same “stuff” that is naturally found in a rabbit’s GI, and therefore it does not have the intended probiotics effects as advertised. That being said, there are many stories of rabbit owners who do see improvements with probiotics, so I think, especially with everything you’re going through, it may be worth a shot to try a different probiotic of different composition and see if that shows differential effects than previous times. Not all probiotics contain the same “stuff”.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[DanaNM]

The “poop shake” was some cecotropes (ideally) or regular poops mixed up in critical care and given to the poorly bun.  In general you would want to be careful with this because the poops from the other bun could contain pathogens, but my vet said if the buns are already living in the same house they would have already been exposed to the same things so it was less of a concern.

Do you know if fiberplex is similar to latulose? Lactulose is another one that is commonly given to megacolon buns to help with keeping the gut mass hydrated.

I know this isn’t a super satisfying answer, but I would talk to your vet to see if they think the liquid is a problem. Since the hard dry megacolon poops are the ones that can cause scarring in the gut, it maybe be better in the long run for him to have this liquid issue (even though it’s gross) if it goes along with smaller poops.

In terms of hay, oat hay tends to may my bunnies poops look amazing. Anecdotally, one of the ladies at the rescue I volunteer with will give her buns small amounts of alfalfa when they have a cecal upset, she swears it gets them back on track right away.

I also know that some megacolon buns don’t do well with veggies, so perhaps a certain veggie is the main culprit? But again I wouldn’t change anything without consulting your vet, because it seems like changing things with megacolon bunnies can cause more problems.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[ThursaLou]

The “poop shake” was some cecotropes (ideally) or regular poops mixed up in critical care and given to the poorly bun.  In general you would want to be careful with this because the poops from the other bun could contain pathogens, but my vet said if the buns are already living in the same house they would have already been exposed to the same things so it was less of a concern.

Oh I’ve heard of it, but my other rabbit never leaves anything behind, she eats them on the spot 😅 I’d rather not risk it, tho.

Do you know if fiberplex is similar to latulose? Lactulose is another one that is commonly given to megacolon buns to help with keeping the gut mass hydrated.

I’m not really sure about Lactulose, since I don’t know what it is, but Fiberplex is like an oily paste in a 15ml syringe, it usually makes the poops slippery.

I’m assuming lactulose is meant for humans? I might take a look if they have it in the farmacy, but they don’t even have liquid simeticone.

I know this isn’t a super satisfying answer, but I would talk to your vet to see if they think the liquid is a problem. Since the hard dry megacolon poops are the ones that can cause scarring in the gut, it maybe be better in the long run for him to have this liquid issue (even though it’s gross) if it goes along with smaller poops.

She’s not getting big dry poops, her huge poops are actually moist, she gets the hard dry ones when she goes into stasis, they are usually small/normal in size.

In terms of hay, oat hay tends to may my bunnies poops look amazing. Anecdotally, one of the ladies at the rescue I volunteer with will give her buns small amounts of alfalfa when they have a cecal upset, she swears it gets them back on track right away.

I’ll take notes about the alfalfa, I’m not sure if they have it, but maybe – is it supposed to have more fiber?

I also know that some megacolon buns don’t do well with veggies, so perhaps a certain veggie is the main culprit? But again I wouldn’t change anything without consulting your vet, because it seems like changing things with megacolon bunnies can cause more problems.

Sadly, no. I don’t give them veggies. There was a time where I went to the vet once every two weeks and we just cut so many things out of her diet – weirdest thing is, after she’s recovered from stasis, she’ll eat hay and everything else, but she’ll avoid pellets for a good couple of days.

Like I said, I give them leafy greens (baby green mix, dandelion leaves)

[Wick & Fable]

I believe it’s the increase in protein from alfalfa hay that’s linked to some benefit for megacolon rabbits.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[DanaNM]

Sorry  for the misunderstanding, when I said “veggies” that was inclusive of leafy greens (basically any fresh foods).

And Wick is correct, I think the benefit from alfalfa would come from the additional protein as it’s a legume rather than a grass.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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