Merry and Banner bonding… maybe

[cainan]

I am feeling really discouraged about this bonding thing.

Trying to bond Merry (3 yr old spayed female) and Banner (5-6 month old neutered male).  Bonding is taking place in the tub.  The kids have lived in adjoining xpens since February when Banner joined the family.

First bonding, Merry immediately attacked Banner…

Second one she waited a little bit, attacked, he went into TOTAL submission mode and she ignored it (better than fighting) but after a few minutes he said, “Okay, she’s not attacking so let me mount her!”  That was a total surprise because I figured he was going to be submissive no matter what… of course she didn’t like it and the fur was a-flying again.

Third try – it was like Merry knew I was taking her to the tub – she whimpered and ran away when I entered her pen.  I put them into the tub and it was like the tables were turned and Banner was chasing her and trying to mount her…. fight, fight, fight again.  I tried to use a water bottle to stop the fight but just ended up with two very wet bunnies.

I noticed that the last time we did the bonding, Banner was honking – he couldn’t possibly still be hormonal over a month after his neuter?

I’m moving in two weeks – what are the chances that I’ll have better success when ALL territory is new?

[mocha200]

have you tried stressing them? try putting them in a basket on the drier while its on, or bouncing it on your lap while there in it before you put them in the tub.
I think once you move it should get a little better.

[cainan]

I haven’t tried stressing them – they’ve stressed me though

I do have a question about the basket thing, which I have considered – if they attack once they’re in the tub, how do I get them both in the basket?

[mocha200]

Put them in the basket and bounce them around a little before they go into the tub and if they start to get wild again just pick one up at a time and put them back in the basket. If they are being shacked around they most likely wont fight. always end on a good note. a good note doesn’t always mean snuggling and licking each other, It can be them just sitting there ignoring each other. also if things are really bad in the tub maybe you shouldn’t do the tub right now and maybe just do stressing.

Do you have any NIC grids?

[cainan]

Yup, I do have NIC grids – what do you have in mind?

I definitely want to try the basket thing!

[RabbitPam]

Those who are more expert at bonding may disagree with me (please step in if that’s the case) but I would suggest putting a hold on the bonding totally until after the move. My reasons are:
1. There is a chance that he is mildly hormonal, and time always helps that. Even a few days too soon can be an issue. However, don’t forget that humping is now the establishment of dominance in their relationship, so you have to let them do it, either way, unless one humps the other’s face or they start a real fight. Resist the urge to stop the humping.
2. The move will be stressful to them both. A new home makes neutral territory a given, so you can limit their “own” space to their cages, and have the rest of your home available for neutral bonding sessions and it will become both of theirs as you succeed without pre-existing territory.
3. They will both be timid about the new home, and stress tends to bring bunnies together. It would work in your favor. You could even designate a new bathroom, or set up a bonding xpen in a new room where you work with them.
4. If you want to keep it going daily until then, take them together in a carrier for short car rides once a day. Like 15 minutes around the neighborhood. Just keep the car moving and put them back in their separate homes afterward until you move. You also can begin using 2 surrogate toy bunnies in each of their cages for the next 2 weeks. Put a toy in with each bunny overnight. Then switch the toys the next day. do it again so the toys really get the smell of each one on it. It will get each used to their others’ smell. Also, any aggression will be taken out on the toy. A 2 week window for car rides and surrogates followed by new turf sounds like a real advantage to me. Plus, if you’re moving, you’re stressed too! Give yourself the time you need to do this.

[cainan]

Thanks RabbitPam! That was my thought too, but for whatever reason FosterMom didn’t think it would work as well. Of course, not making any progress now, I can only go backwards if things keep going this way…. so where I am NOW isn’t so bad!

Of course I do still have the “where the heck do I put the bunnies in the new place” dilemma I just can’t solve lol

[mocha200]

 

Sorry I didn’t answer If you have NIC grids you could make a cube like this  

This way they closer together then they would be in a basket. Sense there isn’t much room it would be hard for them to fight. When they seem to be doing good in one cube you could extend it so it was a 1×2 then when they are good with that you could make it a 1×3 then you could do a 2×2 ect. If you do that at the house your in now, make sure its neutral territory. I hope this made sense

 

[cainan]

Yes! That’s a perfect visual (esp. the gloves LOL) Thanks Mocha!
The poor buns have been so mad at me because it’s all about packing and not them this week Hopefully come Friday I’ll be able to lavish them with love again! I hate moving!!!!!!!

[cainan]

So moving was probably the best thing I could have done to bond the little guys! I put them each in their individual carriers – carried ’em around a bit to get them a little nervous, then put the carriers door to door, opened them, and Banner crawled into Merry’s carrier. Just to make sure that they were going to be okay in there, I carried them around the apartment some more… and everything was okay!

Banner took full advantage of having Merry there on the ride and totally cuddled up to her – he kind of laid around her with his nose buried under her behind Merry didn’t exactly cuddle back, but she didn’t do anything to bite him, but I’ll take that! I wonder how much of it has to do with the fact that Banner is still young and had two sisters, and we don’t know anything about Merry’s background.

When we got to the new place, I put the carrier on the bed and opened the door. They stayed in there for a while huddled and cuddled… and then finally came out. I was afraid that now that the stress was done, they’d go at it – but it was VERY positive! They ignored each other a bunch, and a few times went nose to nose with no aggression. Yay!

Now to build my NIC bonder

[jerseygirl]

Yay!

More sessions in all the neutral territory you now have and you;ll be well on your way.
You could do the carrier stressor before hand…or not. It’s not always necessary so play it by ear.

@Mocha, that is one cute picture!  I don’t remember seeing that one.  I love the look on their faces. lol  

[mocha200]

I never posted it because it had my face in it, but I cropped it for this post. That was the first day of bonding. As you can see they loved it ( NOT) lol.

[cainan]

an update:
I haven’t gotten to NIC crates yet (hee hee I can’t wait) because Foster Mom suggested that for a week or two I switch the buns’ pens so that they “get used to the others scent”.
It’s been going along well so far – except for the time or two when Merry makes a run for it and nips at Banner when she runs past him *sigh*. I just don’t get her sometimes – most of the time I can leave the door wide open and she’s fine. Other times she’s a little devil!

They’ve had separate living room time (that’s a treat to manage ha). I’ll probably do this for the remainder of the week and then on the weekend try ’em in a NIC crate. Whew, I had no idea it was going to be this tough!

[cainan]

So I have a bit of an update! I put the both the kids into a basket last night to do a little stress bonding (it worked), and then brought them to the tub. They snuggled together for a while, ignored each other, and got into what I now think is a “groom me first” contest (no one won). They behaved for 15 minutes or so, and then a little chasing and nipping began. I let it go longer than I had been (since from what I’ve been reading I’ve been overpanicking a bit). No one got hurt, but Merry lost a wee bit of fur for the first time, instead of Banner! When they were snuggled together and shivering at first I was petting them both and it seemed to have a positive effect.
There may be hope yet!

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