Male-male bonding help needed

[swooboo]

Hello,

I’m trying to bond 2 male rabbits. Pi is my first rabbit – Netherland Dwarf of ~3 years, and I got him when he was very little. Recently I got Dorian of ~1.5 years from a friend who rescues cats and rabbits regularly, and just had too many animals at home. Both are males and I heard that it’s virtually impossible to bond them. But with all the ‘Rona stuff I’m working from home so I have more time and patience and want to give it a try and prove all the nay-sayers wrong so…

Traits and details of the boys:

Pi – mostly calm, brave and strong Netherland Dwarf. Has an attitude – if he disagrees with me, I get growls and lunges. No bites though, nips sometimes. Lately he started pooping and peeing on the couch, even though he’s potty trained. He used to do it in the past too, even though he was potty-trained then too. He lived with my mom for some time, and she said he stopped doing it, so maybe it’s about me and my smell or something. I think he somehow feels competition for the couch or something like this, because when he was little and I saw him pee on the couch, I’d immediately put him on the ground. So now every time I approach him and he’s on the couch, I see him trying to go down. If I do catch him and pet him on the couch, he’ll sit for some time, but then he’ll start digging the couch. Currently he lives in a closed room because of the second rabbit, and before that the room was open, and I would only lock him in a cage at night. But now since his territory is restricted, I just don’t close the cage and he’s free to do whatever he wants in the room. For some time he didn’t go on the couch, then I saw some poo, and then he started peeing on it too. Also poo on the floor near the toilet. This all happened after I got Dorian. Hates being picked up. Also lately he started flicking his legs on me for no reason – like, I pet him and then he suddenly walks away, flicking his hind legs to my direction – this happened before I got Dorian.

Dorian – Very friendly Lionhead mix, about 2 times bigger than Pi, started binkying an hour after he was brought to me, licked my hand on the first day, very playful. Very hard to pick up this strong fella, I didn’t have any success yet. Maybe when I need to cut his nails I’ll go to the vet or try to do it on the ground. Dorian can be touched almost anywhere, he will never bite or growl, but sometimes he just walks away. Currently living in the living room, has a pen but I can’t keep him there yet, he is strong and just moves it away. When I just got him, his toilet was in his pen, and he used it. Then after putting new bedding into it, from a different brand, (switched from Cats Best that he was used to, to Woody Cat which I have) and he started peeing and pooping near the entrance door, ignoring his toilet. I’ve put the toilet there for now, but I hope that after I move it back to his pen, he will get the clue because of his smell.

Questions from the template:

Spay/Neuter
Both neutered

Housing
Pi is living in a closed room together with a cage, cage is always open. Dorian has a pen in the living room, which is also always open. Both have toys and carton boxes to play with.

Bonding background
Did you allow the bunnies to “settle-in”? I don’t know what this means, but they met a couple of times on the same day when I got them with no issues, through the pen or the cage of course (one of them is locked in his pen/cage, the other one is free). But then time Pi was very aggressive, lunging towards the pen, while Dorian didn’t even register some hostility. After that I don’t let them to see each other anymore, and I’ll start the prebonding without seeing each other.
How would you describe your bunnies reactions towards each other (answer for each bunny): shy, scared, curious, calm, aggressive, excited, affectionate, etc.? Dorian is curious, calm and affectionate, while Pi was curious on the first meetings, he became aggressive after a couple of times.
Have you done any “pre-bonding” (cage or litter box swaps, etc.)? Didn’t start yet – Dorian’s toilet issue has to be addressed first. Also I still can’t swap their bowls, because Pi’s food bowl is kinda mounted in his cage, and I need another one exactly like that one. If there are other pre-bonding activities I can do, I’d like to know them.
If so, for how long?
Have you started sessions yet? No
How long have you been working on bonding your bunnies?
How frequently do you have bonding sessions, and how long are they?
Have you tried any stressing techniques?

So here I am, trying to get control over these things, but since there’s Dorian’s toilet problem, and now Pi also started peeing on the couch, I got bigger problems before the bonding or even pre-bonding can begin.

Any help is welcome, and please excuse me for the wall of text.

–swooboo

[Wick & Fable]

In actuality, male to male bonds are possible, but male-female just tend to be easier. There can definitely be male-male bonds that work out easier than some male-female bonds– there are many factors at play with bonding, so don’t let the sex match-up dishearten you.

This sounds a lot like my pair Wick (male) and Fable (female) in many ways! There are definitely differences, but the time line is similar. Wick was 3yo when I got Fable. He is a Netherland Dwarf and I had him since young as well. Fable was 1yo when I got her. In terms of my pair, we are one year in and they can live together, but they are not bonded. A unique situation, but has no bearing on the outcome of your pair!

I think the “settle in” time is needed for both. Dorian can benefit from having time to acclimate to you and your environment, and Pi can benefit from knowing through his senses of the environment and of you that there is another rabbit around. My netherland dwarf is honestly not very good at litterbox habits (he’s not motivated to go to a box every time), so whether you can sort that out or not is uncertain. Also, him smelling Dorian (even if he can’t see him; rabbits have great noses) may ramp up his territorialness, leading to more inadherent litter box marking. So you may be able to reduce it, but it is highly likely you’ll be in the “poop wars” chronically until they are bonded or more used to each other.

One recommendation for whenever you do start doing sessions is trying to keep yourself out of it as a middle-block. I have found and still find Wick to be sometimes defensive for me, in that when Fable would approach me, he would immediately try to stop it. That being said, that action can also be considered jealousy. It was beneficial for me to be there because I could reinforce to Wick he was safe and didn’t have to freak out all the time, but it was tricky in doing that while still letting him know to grow a stronger bond with Fable.

 

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[DanaNM]

Thanks for filling out the template! 😎

I agree with Wick, the male-male thing doesn’t matter as much, it’s probably more down to personalities. I know of lots of very happy male-male bonds. Sometimes I wonder if that idea came about before neutering was common. It’s very rare for a bond to be impossible, it’s just a question of how much work it will take and whether it’s worth the stress. Long pre-bonding periods seem to help with tough bonds.

I think letting them both adjust to the set-up for a couple weeks is a good idea, then you can start doing litter box swaps, or full on side-swaps every couple days if you can. It is likely that box habits will be pretty bad until they are bonded. So I would prob try not to worry about the box habits too much until they are bonded (or until you decide to just keep them as two singles).

Not sure if this would work with your set up, but when i was doing side swaps I would lead one bun into a “holding pen” with pellets, then lead the other bun into the first bun’s pen (also with pellets). Then release the first bun from the pen into the second bun’s pen. This way I didn’t have to pick anyone up to do the swaps (much less stressful for everyone).

Some people will also train the bun to go into their carrier (with pellets usually) or the litter box (you can just pick up the box with the bun in it).

It’s very normal for buns to be aggressive towards another bun when they meet near their home turf, so their interactions at their first meetings might not be representative of what it will be like in neutral territory.

After your pre-bonding period, I would try to do first dates in a very neutral, somewhat large, and somewhat stressful space (like a large pen in a backyard, for example). Setting short time goals for first sessions is also a good strategy when you aren’t sure how they will be towards each other, so you don’t push things too far, as you’ll want to try to end on a good note (ignoring each other is better than fighting). If they fight right away, go back to pre-bonding, and plan to do some stressing next. Car rides together can be very helpful for buns that fight right away.

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[swooboo]

Thank you Wick and Dana! I’m a lot more hopeful about this bonding process now.

 

Some follow-up questions:

1. I still don’t fully understand what exactly the “settle in” means. English is not my 1st language, but I do understand the meaning, just not the meaning in this context. If I understand correctly, it’s the time before pre-bonding, where I just let them live as they are now?
2. How do I know when to stop and start the pre-bonding?
3. Regarding side swaps, I understand it’s swapping cages now. But Dorian is much bigger than Pi, so he wouldn’t fit into his cage. Should I just swap rooms? Pi can get into Dorian’s pen, but I don’t close it anyway, so the bun that’s in the living room gets more freedom. Another concern – Dorian is very quick and hates being locked out. The room where Pi lives now is not very big, so I imagine it would be hard getting in and out without letting him get out into the danger zone with Pi.
4. Side-swaps are done during pre-bonding – right?
5. Is there a ‘staircase’ for the pre-bonding, like, which activities to do early and which are for later time? Like, with the bonding sessions – they get longer as time passes.
6. Regarding car rides – when I take Pi to the vet, or another ride, I put him in his first cage (smallish), buckle the cage and go. Should they be in their cages / carriers in the car ride, or should they be in contact? I mean, what if they fight while I’m driving?
7. BTW, need to clip the nails of both of them, maybe it’s a good time to visit a vet. When is it best to do the car ride in the timeline?
8. In what scenario would I keep them as two singles and how would it work? No contact at all? I’d really love if they bond, one of the reasons I got Dorian is because Pi doesn’t move much, so I thought a friend might be good and maybe he’ll move around more. So I really really want them to bond.

For now my next steps are to just stay like they are now for a couple of weeks, without any bonding-related activities, and only then start with pre-bonding?

I’ll try to update here of the progress.

Thanks a lot for the answers!

[DanaNM]

1. yes, that means just letting them live as they are now until they seem calm and relaxed in their surroundings.
2. I would start prebonding once they seem relaxed in their current arrangement. And continue on until they are bonded. You should wait to start bonding session until both bunnies seem pretty relaxed about pre-bonding. After a while they usually don’t seem bothered or upset by the side swaps, which means they are ready to start bonding sessions.
3. You can swap rooms, or if it’s not practical, you can swap litter boxes (slightly dirty) so they can get used to each other’s scents.
4. yes, ideally (or just swap litter boxes and toys)
5. Not really. I usually swap sides every day or two and continue that until they are bonded.
6. For car rides I usually like to put both bunnies in a plastic tub so I can intervene more easily if they fight. Have someone else drive and have the car running and ready to go. Wear leather gloves in case of bites, pop both bunnies in the bin and take them for a drive. Usually 15 min is a good starting point. If you don’t have someone to help drive, you can also put them on top of a washing machine while it’s running, or just walk them around in the bin. Once you know they won’t fight in the car having the helper is less important.
7. If you have a helper, you could try it now, but it would be good to have a helper, and an extra carrier on hand in case they fight too much in the car.
8. I just mentioned this in case you aren’t able to bond them. But I’m hopeful that you could do it! I have had a few very tough bonds that took several months, and both ended up with very tightly and happily bonded bunnies. But sometimes (rarely) bunnies just won’t bond. So in those cases they would be housed separately, like you have them now. But often single bunnies appreciate having a neighbor, even if they aren’t bonded. So perhaps you could set up some housing that allows them to live side by side and then alternate who gets free-roam time. For example I had a pair and a single, and I would let my single free-roam overnight and the pair free-roam during the day. You might explore these options anyway, as that type of housing might work better for pre-bonding.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[swooboo]

Alright, I got what I need for now. Thanks a bunch and I’ll do my best to report the results too.

[swooboo]

Small update. Finished with the settling in, swapping bowls and toilets now as suggested. No issues. Actually, Pi stopped doing business on the couch, so there’s even an improvement. I’m really hopeful.

 

EDIT: I plan to swap sides in a week or two – is this correct? Should I also start letting them see each other through the cage?

[DanaNM]

Sounds great. 🙂 And yes you can start letting them see each other and side swaps in a week or sounds good to me.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[pinkiemarie]

Just so you know I have a bonded pair of neutered males who are so much in love! It’s 100% possible. Keep up the bonding and hopefully you’ll get to the same point.

[swooboo]

Thanks! It’s good to know there are many people with bonded males. Did yours take long time? Were there problems?

[pinkiemarie]

They were love at first sight easy. I’m currently working a 3rd rabbit into the mix and it’s much harder with her. It just depends on the specific animals. But it can be done!

[swooboo]

Small update – tomorrow I start swapping sides, after two weeks of toilets and bowls swapping. I think Pi is curious now instead of aggressive as before. He would sometimes lunge at the door if he heard Dorian was there. Now he seems calmer and curious if I’m reading him correct – curiously approaching the door, sniffing, sitting near it. Still a bit tense I think. I hope it’s a good sign.

Now, I forgot to tell this, but there’s a big weight difference between the two. Pi, the Netherland Dwarf is the 3 years old guy, and Dorian is less than a year, he’s a Lionhead mix, and he’s almost the size of a regular rabbit. Is it a problem? I would guess that Pi might be intimidated by it – can he still be the dominant dude even if the other guy is bigger? Dorian is so friendly and easy-going that he probably wouldn’t mind any arrangement as long as somebody plays with him and gives him attention. Like, when we let them meet twice just as Dorian arrived, second time Pi lunged at the enclosure, and Dorian had his nose out of the enclosure between the bars. Pi lunged at him and I was afraid he would bite – no bite marks or anything, and Dorian didn’t even register that there was hostility, he’s such a goofball. He also likes to lick all the time, and I can take his head from the very bottom and hold it on my palm, and he’ll like it and even start licking me usually. I think I would get growled and boxed at if I would attempt to do that to Pi – which is normal behavior if I understand correctly, because they don’t see well there and it might be a danger zone.

Thanks a bunch all of you!

[Wick & Fable]

Size difference typically doesn’t mean too much in my experience and recollection. My Wick is 2.5lbs and Fable is 7.5lbs. There definitely seemed to be a period where Wick had to learn her movements weren’t harmful  but whether that was heavily influenced by her size is unknown. I dont see weight as something that could heavily deter a bond!

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[swooboo]

Okay, thanks a bunch. For now I’ll side swap them and maybe start ‘through-fence’ dates in another week so they get used to side-swapping first? Or should I start both and if they react badly to dates, do just side-swaps for some time?

[Wick & Fable]

At the end of the day, no harm (that I can think of) to a bond can be done by going slower versus faster. At the same time, if you do notice maybe things are being rushed and the rabbits are not melding as they should, the signs are usually obvious and you can simply retrace steps and go back. The only exception is if a significantly bad interaction happens which causes the rabbits to hold grudges.  At the end of the day though, I completely understand a pressure and want to get bonding over as soon as possible, haha.

I think starting with side swapping is great, and you can decide as you see how the rabbits react to it if you want to try giving them a shared wall. It will seem obviously pretty soon (most likely) if they aren’t ready to share a wall in a space yet.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[swooboo]

Thanks Wick! Actually, I can’t have a wall between them – I have 2 rooms that are each for another bunny. The best thing I can think of now is to put a fence in the doorway (2 fences, because Dorian can put his face through the fence, and Pi can bite him right on the nose or close). I’m buying this Lego-like pen (search in images on Google: Tespo Playpen), so I’ll put 2 layers (maybe not even connected, just one in the form of Π (Pi hehe) so it stands, and just add another separate layer only at the top of the Π, so it just adds some centimeters to the width of the “wall”. I plan on putting this Π in the doorway between the two rooms for the dates – is it OK?

[Wick & Fable]

Admittedly having a hard time imagining it, but if you’re using Tespo stuff to create barriers/pens, that gets a green-light from me! Tespo has been most reliable as building blocks for the permanent pens and set-ups I’ve made for my rabbits! As long as it’s secure and can handle potential shoving/jumping/chewing from the rabbits, it should be OK!

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[swooboo]

I found out that they’re not real Tespo parts, but still very good. One thing though – the bars might be a little too close so maybe they don’t see each other too well through even one layer of it. The usual scene was that they both sniff on the bottom of the fence, then Pi gets frightened or something and he lunges at the fence. I think he even hurt himself once or twice. Now they started to be less tense a little bit, so I started the dates but they fight so hard right away! I’m using leather gloves and a small dustpan to separate them right away when they fight, but it’s so violent. They’re on a somewhat slippery surface, so it’s hard for them to lunge at full speed but I think if there would be rugs, there probably would be blood. Is this normal and should I continue? It happened once – they sniffed at each other and Pi was about to lunge, then they both kinda turned around right before lunging. I’ve separated them right away to end on a good note – was this correct? I always try to give them treats right after a session – is it OK even though they fought? Also, I’ve noticed Dorian lunging towards Pi too, even though he was only curious before – can he turn aggressive? Oh and one more thing, I found one more guide to bonding, they say to maybe use a water bottle to spray on them when they fight, to separate them – do you think it’s a good idea? Link to the guide here.

In any case they fight very fiercely, or maybe it just looks like that to me, but I really have a strong will not to meet between them because of this violence. I can send a video in IM if needed, I just don’t want it publicly available.

 

Thanks in advance from Pi, Dorian and Me

 

EDIT: More questions. Should I stop side swapping and swapping of bowls / toilets once I start bonding sessions?

EDIT2: Forgot to add the link to the online guide – http://www.saveabunny.org/rabbitcare/bonding-guide (also added above)

[DanaNM]

Hi there,

So if they are trying to fight and lunging at each other immediately, I would do more pre-bonding. And yes continue swapping throughout bonding sessions as well.

I would also probably try some stress sessions. Car rides can really work wonders (have a helper drive so you can make sure they don’t fight in the care). If you can do your bonding sessions in a very new and somewhat stressful spot, that might help as well (like a backyard).

A spritz of water or a loud noise can work fine to break things up, but in my experience if they are already going at it, it doesn’t really work. It’s important to have your gloves on and or a broom handy to separate them safely in case they latch on to each other despite your best efforts.

It is important that you prevent fighting before it starts, I think it was excellent that you ended on a good note (after they turned away from each other). I think the most challenging thing for new bonders is knowing what to allow and what to stop. In the beginning, it’s better err on the side of intervening too early rather than too late. As for lunging, watch the ear and tail position. Ears back and tail up = aggressive. Ears facing forward and tail down = curious/wanting to mount. Sometimes the ears will be moving forward and back when they aren’t sure of each other, so it’s important to be right there with them and ready to intervene.

One thing I like to do, especially very early on, is when they approach each other and get close together, I will start petting both on the head and swap scents. This makes them think the other rabbit is grooming them and helps them start to build a positive association with the other rabbit. I also find it a lot more calming than just squirting the rabbits with water whenever they get close together and I’m worried about fighting. The hope is that you will start to see them interact more calmly around each other. Then you can back off slightly and allow them to interact more freely without it escalating to a fight so quickly.

Dif things work for dif buns, so if those things don’t seem to help then experimenting with the space can often help (larger or smaller, with our without hides, etc).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Wick & Fable]

As Dana mentions, continuing to swap things is always good. You are getting the rabbits acclimated to each other’s scent, which is essential for bonding.  Ending on good notes is really important as well, so keep with that judgement. In many bonding processes, negative interactions will happen as a part of them working things out, but trying to end on times that are positive (this includes ignoring each other) helps leave a good impression when they are separated.

Re: treats after sessions, my initial concern would be if either of them are especially food aggressive. If sessions become associated with food, and one or both rabbits are especially food motivated, it may amplify the energy within those sessions negatively. Just something to consider!

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[swooboo]

Hi all, more updates.

In short, there is some progress, but there are a lot of fights.

They don’t start fighting right away, but they fight in every meeting. I’ve limited the space for interaction to a little bit more than 1m². Dorian (the bigger one) tries to sit in a corner and not to move, while Pi is usually looking at him with both eyes. Dorian also lies down in a flop sometimes, while Pi is usually sitting and not lying. Once or twice I saw him flop though. Usually Dorian is turning his side to Pi, while Pi is looking directly at him. Dorian is lying down seemingly relaxed though, while Pi looks tense most of the. Pi pees on the floor sometimes. When they come closer they usually fight. Last couple of meetings they start fighting in a later time, after approaching each other and backing out, albeit they are irritaded when they back out, especially Pi, who jumps high and growls. But most of the times they meet – they fight. Should I finish the date after the first fight? Last time though, Pi came to Dorian from behind and sniffed his tail for some time, which surprised me because on that distance they usually start fighting pretty quick. I did try to calm them by petting on their heads so that helped for sure. I think maybe I’m doing something wrong. For example, I don’t really have a truly ‘neutral’ territory. I have 2 areas, one is a working room, and the bigger one is a living room together with a corridor connected to the working room and the bedroom. In that corridor I’m doing the dating. The door to the working room is always open with a fence inbetween, so they can always approach each other.

The process:

1. Lock one of the bunnies inside the fence. (The fence is a small cage with a door)
2. Close one of the bunnies in the bedroom.
3. Position the fence with the bun so it blocks a small area in the corridor with the door at the other side.
4. Get the bun from bedroom to the area by opening the door.
5. Close the door
6. Open the fance cage door, and close it after the bun is out.
7. Fight! (Unfortunately)
8. Sometimes they approach each other and then each backs out, Pi is very irritated.
9. Dorian looks so miserable a lot of the time, trying to stuff himself in the corner.
10. Sometimes he’s more relaxed though.
11. But sometimes he’s the one initiating the fight, lunging from a long distance and without and visible (to me) provocative actions from Pi. Dorian is a sweet bunny otherwise, never showing any agression even when I would either get bitten or growled at by Pi if I do the same to him.
12. I try to separate them when they’re not fighting for some time, and I also get bored that they just sit each one in his corner, looking at each other, like two boxers on break. But Pi is very pissed after this.
13. To separate I either open the fence’s door and close one of the buns there, or close one of the buns in the bedroom and then distribute them wherever they need to be.

So I know some of the things (like the area) affect the process negatively. But is it hopeless like this and I have to think of other possibilities like trying to get them into the balcony? Is it normal that they fight so much? Admittedly, I started doing 1-2 times a day only recently, before that, the dates were more rare.

Thank you all for the help,

Dorian, Pi and I

EDIT: What is food motivated? Pi sometimes (rarely) growls at my hand a little bit, for not giving away his precious food even though it’s not above the bowl yet. I give him a mix of Beaphar Nature and a small amount of Versele Laga Nature, which he loves in contrast to Beaphar. So he runs to the bowl to the good stuff but he’s over it pretty fast. So I don’t understand how much aggressive it has to be to be considered food-aggressive.

[DanaNM]

So, it’s very important to prevent the fights from happening at all. Even if that means the session is only 1 minute long, or you have your hands on them as soon as they get close together and you just pet them constantly and end it then.

Ignoring each other is better than fighting, and sitting in opposite corners is still a choice to NOT fight.

Neutral space is important, so I would start thinking about where else you might do sessions (a bathtub is often the only neutral space for some people, so you could try that).

Have you tried any stressing? My first bond was really tough and they would fight right away. Car rides helped us get past that phase. Have someone else drive so you can make sure they don’t fight. I usually use a plastic bin rather than a carrier so I can have easy access to them, and wear thick gloves to protect your hands. Have the car running, pop them in the bin, and drive them around for 10-15 minutes. Do that daily for a few days, and have that be the only sessions for a few days.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Wick & Fable]

Can you do anything in your bathroom? It was definitely inconvenient, but I didn’t make any head-way with getting Wick and Fable to get along until I made everything happen in the bathroom.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[swooboo]

Thanks for the replies!

Bathroom is usually open and is accessible from the living room, so it’s almost an extension of  the bigger area. Is it still good? I’m thinking to just put them both on the balcony. I have a big balcony and a big pen, so I can make that happen. But – Dorian usually really wants to go out and I let him play there regularly, while Pi is very cautious and doesn’t go out too far for too long. So the same question – is that still considered a neutral space? How small should it be? I heard that they should be forced to interact, that’s why I made it so small.

Thanks.

[DanaNM]

I have never had good luck with tiny spaces, especially when they are fighting. Most rabbit rescue orgs also do not recommend small space bonding methods anymore (at least not as the primary strategy). Consider the fight or flight response: if one bunny is threatened by the other, and has no where to flee to, they have no choice but to fight. Giving them more space can allow one bunny to get away from the other and can help things not to escalate to full on fighting. So I personally prefer to give them the largest space possible (like two x-pens linked or a whole room). Lots of people like to bond in an area the size of one x-pen, so it is big enough for them to move around a bit, but small enough that it’s easy to manage them. Since small spaces are not working for you, I would try for a larger space next if you can.

I don’t think the balcony is fully neutral, but would be worth trying. Same goes for the bathroom.  You can try cleaning and disguising the area a bit too. Clean the whole area with vinegar and try to make it look unfamiliar with some new towels or blankets.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Wick & Fable]

I echo Dana, in that small spaces has not worked for me. I used the entire x-pen in my bathroom so there was a good amount of space to move around. Forced interaction can make things difficult — they don’t need to interact with each other all the time. As stated, the choice to ignore each other is really good. And learning to ignore and not interact with each other is a natural part of a relationship between two rabbits, so allowing that space can actually be very advantageous. Bonded rabbits aren’t necessarily side by side all the time.

The bonding process has a lot of learning both on your end and the rabbits, so you’re doing great in keeping it up and trying to keep in mind what your sessions are reinforcing vs. not.

This was the bathroom set-up I was able to fit in:

I eventually added the second sheet (pink, on the right side of the 2nd photo) to cover the bathroom visual, and that helped too.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[swooboo]

Hi people,

Thanks for the reassuring words. This is what keeps me going actually, because I see that it doesn’t work because I’m doing something wrong and not because it’s impossible. I have several more questions and a little situation that really upsets me.

1. So the towels and blankets Dana suggested are to obstruct the view, make the territory unfamiliar, and force them to at least pay attention only one to another? That’s why Wick added sheets?
2. If they almost fight and I diffuse the situation – should I continue the date? What is the breaking point? Sometimes I see them approach each other and kind of jump while growling but then they back off and not fight. Dana said “or you have your hands on them as soon as they get close together and you just pet them constantly and end it then” – so if even after a little hostility I should end the date?
3. Dorian, the sweet docile guy actually sometimes lunges at my little brave Pi – why could that be? Is it because he thinks Pi is in his territory? Or is it a preemptive strike because he feels hostility? Once he even lunged and bit my slipper.
4. I’m trying the balcony solution, the size looks like what Wick showed, maybe even a bit bigger. I put plastic sheet on the floor, and I’ll put sheets too, because Dorian just kind of walks around a lot looking outside. Also it’s kind of hard to make them both go there and not start fighting right away. I put Pi first (and he’s very pissed when I do it because he still doesn’t trust the balcony, sometimes he cautiously walks out by a meter and then goes back), and then Dorian. If I do the reverse, Dorian will probably run towards Pi inside of it and there’ll be fight right away. Any tips? Or should the pen be divided until they both are in?

As for the situation. 2 days ago I noticed that Pi has some of his whiskers cut off. He has such cute whiskers. That same morning I saw Dorian actually get into Pi’s room by moving the wall, but most probably I just moved it when I needed to go into the room. A lot of the time, Pi sits near the wall, and Dorian too. I think they kind of communicate like that. The problem is that Dorian hates all kinds of walls and cages, so he sometimes digs near it, and that pisses Pi off, although lately it doesn’t bother him as much. One thing though, I noticed that when Pi brings his face close to the fence to sniff, Dorian sometimes tries to bite it. I think he’s trying to nip and it’s not hostile, but the fact is that Pi’s missing halves of some of his whiskers, and when I see or think about it, no joke I feel a little bit sick. What should I do?

Again, thank you all for the support, I would’ve given up long ago without it.

Pi, Dorian and I

[DanaNM]

Hi there, see my answers below:

1. So the towels and blankets Dana suggested are to obstruct the view, make the territory unfamiliar, and force them to at least pay attention only one to another? That’s why Wick added sheets?

I use them to block view of familiar territory. If you are in completely neutral spot they aren’t necessary.

2. If they almost fight and I diffuse the situation – should I continue the date? What is the breaking point? Sometimes I see them approach each other and kind of jump while growling but then they back off and not fight. Dana said “or you have your hands on them as soon as they get close together and you just pet them constantly and end it then” – so if even after a little hostility I should end the date?

If they decide not to fight on their own, that’s awesome and is progress! You could choose to end it there, or soon after. I would try not to end a date right after anything aggressive. Wait at least a few minutes (till they are calm or ignoring each other), or after a positive interaction.

 3. Dorian, the sweet docile guy actually sometimes lunges at my little brave Pi – why could that be? Is it because he thinks Pi is in his territory? Or is it a preemptive strike because he feels hostility? Once he even lunged and bit my slipper.

In rabbits, nearly all aggression is fear-related. It can be tempting to speculate what they are thinking, but sometimes that sets things back because we project human emotions on to them. He could be feeling threatened by Pi, so he lunges out of fear.

4. I’m trying the balcony solution, the size looks like what Wick showed, maybe even a bit bigger. I put plastic sheet on the floor, and I’ll put sheets too, because Dorian just kind of walks around a lot looking outside. Also it’s kind of hard to make them both go there and not start fighting right away. I put Pi first (and he’s very pissed when I do it because he still doesn’t trust the balcony, sometimes he cautiously walks out by a meter and then goes back), and then Dorian. If I do the reverse, Dorian will probably run towards Pi inside of it and there’ll be fight right away. Any tips? Or should the pen be divided until they both are in?

Perhaps you could put them both in separate carriers, and then open them at the same time? Or put one in a carrier, then carrier the other one in and open the carrier?

Regarding the whisker situation, I wouldn’t worry about that. It’s very normal for bunnies that aren’t bonded to try to nip each other through the fence, so it makes sense that some whiskers could get nipped. That said, if they are constantly trying to “get at” each other, and are acting aggressive constantly though the fence, you might try adding a visual barrier (like a towel) or increasing the buffer space between the fences so they can’t reach each other at all. If they are constantly sensing the other rabbit as a threat, that might be hindering the pre-bonding process.

Have you tried any car ride sessions with them? Or perhaps a session at a friend’s house so it is 100% new? Both of those things have really helped me with rabbits that continue to act aggressively in bonding sessions. “change the environment, change the behavior”, as they say.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[swooboo]

Thanks for all the answers Dana! I mostly got it, but I have some follow-up questions and comments.
Perhaps you could put them both in separate carriers, and then open them at the same time? Or put one in a carrier, then carrier the other one in and open the carrier?
I didn’t think of that, will try. Also will try the unfamiliar apartment solution. My concern with car rides, is that even with the helper, if they start fighting inside the basin (or whatever container we use), I’m not sure how to separate them. When they fight they suddenly become 100 times stronger and blinded by rage probably. You think you knew your buns and then you see the dark side…
That said, if they are constantly trying to “get at” each other, and are acting aggressive constantly though the fence, you might try adding a visual barrier (like a towel) or increasing the buffer space between the fences so they can’t reach each other at all.
Is the nipping also sign of aggression? Lately I see them almost without aggression, but I need to really know what you mean. Pi almost never lunges at the fence when Dorian is there, sometimes he lowers his head and ears, but lately they don’t fight through the fence, unless Pi is getting nipped or very irritated by Dorian’s digging. But it’s very very different from how they behave during the dates, at any time.

This is valuable information. Thanks!

EDIT: The button “Increase indent” doesn’t work correctly, I needed to edit this to remove them. It looked like this:
<p style=”padding-left: 40px;”>That said, if they are constantly trying to “get at” each other, and are acting aggressive constantly though the fence, you might try adding a visual barrier (like a towel) or increasing the buffer space between the fences so they can’t reach each other at all.</p>

[DanaNM]

So, you should set things up so they can’t nip each other through the fence. That can definitely make them annoyed with each other. Lowering the head is a request to be groomed, but with ears back is a more dominant/aggressive gesture. The digging might calm down with a partial visual barrier.

And oh, believe me, I know they can turn into little tasmanian devils when they want to… I still have some numbness in one hand due to a bite in a bonding session (my own carelessness, wear gloves people!).

So for car rides, I like to use a big plastic tub, like the rubbermaid or sterilite ones that you use for storage. You can put hay on the bottom if you want, but keeping it slippery can also prevent fighting. I will get ready and have my gloves ready to go, car running with the driver ready. Have a back-up carrier in the car. Pop one bun in the bin, then pop the second bun in, and then get going. Sit in the backseat with them and have your gloves on so you can interfere if necessary. I’ve worked with some buns that really wanted to fight in bonding sessions, but most buns won’t fight a moving car. The first time will prob feel a bit stressful, but if they don’t fight, then you know you’ve got a good strategy. If they do, then you don’t need to try it again.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

One final suggestion, are there professional bonders where you live? Some places (esp in the UK) there are professional bonders that will bond your bunnies for you (or will tell you that you prob just don’t have a good match).

Might be worth looking into if all else fails.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[swooboo]

Hi all,

Still taking it slow, there’s progress. Sometimes I can get them to sit nose-to-nose, and while I was petting them both they were calm. I can also usually finish the date on a good note.

As mentioned, I have a fence between their areas, and it looks like they also behave a lot better over the fence. Dorian, the big guy, sometimes still nips and digs near the fence, but I did some squealing when he was biting near Pi’s face, so I think he understands now that it hurts, because he does that a lot less. Also they’re pretty chill there usually, I saw them both lying down on a side there. They also sniff each other a lot, and also at times they press their body against the fence so the hairs stick out from the other side, and then the other rabbit sniffs it. Is this some kind of dominance or bonding related behavior? Sometimes it seems that Pi is licking or maybe chin-marking, I don’t know. They’re both calm in this, which is good.

One very stressful thing happened this morning. Dorian got into Pi’s room by mistake, and Pi went crazy inside the cage, running in circles like crazy. I thought he was going to have a heart attack or something. I first tried to get Dorian out of the room but then switched to calming Pi, when he was somewhat calm I got Dorian out. I think he understood that he did wrong, I talked very sternly to him and didn’t pet him for some time. He then sat quietly.

I just need to know what happened and what’s the best way of dealing with this. I understand that owner’s hand on the ears/head (my guys like to have all the head covered I think) should be calming. But in this case he was doing laps in the cage and I could barely get hold of him, especially with only left hand in the cage. It was very scary.

Could this happen if he sees something in the window?

Will he feel secure in the room? Beforehand he would lay on the sofa, sometimes even going higher on the back side of the sofa to get a better view of the window, or maybe he just likes the place.

Thanks a lot in advance,

~swooboo

[DanaNM]

It sounds like Pi just got spooked or upset because Dorian was in his territory. Usually when a  bunny is panicked like that it’s best to just leave them alone and try to remove whatever the stressor is. You can speak calming to them but often trying to catch or touch them freaks them out more. I’m sure he will calm back down soon!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[swooboo]

Thanks! He was a lot better later on.

[Mp]

Hi

I would love to know how your bonding has been going? I hope you had a great experience and Pi and Dorian are now best buddies.

[swooboo]

Hi Mp and the beautiful people!

So I’m really slow unfortunately, but there’s small progress. They look like they really like to be near each other when there’s a fence. Dorian already made 2 windows in that fence, the big guy has a strong jaw. The strange thing is that Pi sometimes really sticks his face where Dorian bites the fence, as if on purpose, but then if Dorian accidentally nips him, he is irritated, but stays there. This is somewhat confusing to me.

As for the bonding sessions – I try to do them as much as I can, but I only do once a couple of days. I hope this doesn’t invalid the bonding process because I really love them both. They do behave better together, they can sit nose-to-nose for a minute maybe if I pet them both. But usually they still fight a little. I believe right now Dorian is more aggressive than Pi – I can’t see who initiates the fight because it’s so fast (need to train my eyes), but once Pi sniffed Dorian from behind for a long time and didn’t attack at all, but maybe that doesn’t mean anything. I wonder whether they didn’t yet decide who the ‘alpha’ is? I put cardboard and a sheet on the walls of the bonding enclosure to limit their FOV to only themselves – it’s a good idea right?

Didn’t yet do the stressing, but I’ll have a helper soon and we’ll try it. I’m just scared that Dorian will jump down from the washing machine – he really doesn’t like to be picked up. Big deep box? Although I’m working on that with him, sometimes picking him up for half a second just a little bit and then giving him a treat immediately. I think he’s a little easier on that now. But still, the guy becomes a devil when picked up.

Thanks for all your support!

~~swooboo

[DanaNM]

Slow and steady is great. The number one ingredient for bonding is patience, so whatever seems to be working for you is great. 🙂

Do make sure they can’t actually nip each other through the fencing, those nips can start to build negative feelings towards each other.

Regarding stressing, I usually put the buns in a big plastic bin or a carrier (if I know I can get them out easily, usually a bin is better if you’re worried about fights). Lots of people also use laundry baskets. A large box would also be fine! 🙂

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[swooboo]

Hi all,

Some progress here! I know it’s been a long time, but my mom was at my place and we did a bonding session, without anyone but them in the bonding area. They did pretty well, only once in the beginning there was a potential fight that was defused. It lasted one hour without any further issues. So we figured to risk it a little and give them time together inside the house. They did well. At first though, Dorian ran full speed at Pi (the smaller one) and jumped over him but really low. Pi didn’t like it at all and when I put my hand on him to calm him, he growled very strongly. Then I got him to calm down and they didn’t fight, Pi approached and smelled him from behind even. They also smelled one another nose to nose without issues. Also Pi wasn’t tense if I’m not mistaken. Dorian is not problematic, he’s just playful, but I think he’s kind of bonded, only Pi needs to accept him at this point. Correct me if I’m mistaken in my analysis.

Anyways. After this we separated them for the night. I see this as good progress.

Here’s a question though. They have a fence between them when they’re separated, and they go to the toilet there a lot and make a mess. Is this normal? Is it some sort of a communication method?

Thanks a lot for all the help, now I can see the light at the end of the tunnel finally.

~~swooboo

[DanaNM]

That sounds like a good session! Bonding is a two-way process, so both need to be comfortable with each other for there to be a bond. Sometimes one bunny being very playful can be a form of dominance display, like “look how much i don’t care about you”. But not fighting is great.

An hour is still pretty short, and it’s a good strategy to repeat anything that worked well, and to increase the time. So try to use the same areas they did well multiple days in a row, and increase the length of sessions before moving to less-neutral areas. I think it is probably too soon to do sessions in semi-neutral territories.

Pooping and peeing along the barrier is normal, they are marking their territory against the other bunny. Are you doing side-swaps?

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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