Looking for bonders in Alberta or B.C. *BONDED*

[vashira]

Hi guys, I have 3 unbonded rabbits that I would love to bond. Two females one male. All altered. Very aggressive netherland dwarf female (towards the other two)..male is next in line as far as aggressiveness, and a non aggressive female, who will fight if prompted to.

I would do just about anything to have hands on help. Does anyone know of any professional bonders either here in Calgary or in B.C.?

I’ve read tons of articles and have a dvd “introducing rabbits” but think that these 3 may be a bit more then I can chew. Could really use some help.

Anyone having information as far as bonders go would be greatly appreciated.

Alberta would be much much preferable to B.C., be about 10 hour car ride to Vancouver from here but willing to consider anywhere if I have no other options.

Thank you in advance.

Marie.

[Beka27]

what have you done yourself to bond? how are you going about it?

[MooBunnay]

Hello Yashira,

Have you contacted any local rabbit rescues? In Canada I found the following two rabbit rescues, perhaps you can get in touch with them and see if they know anyone in your area? Rabbit bonding can sometimes be a very long process, for example I am in the process of bonding a male and female and we are already on week 3. With a trio it can take even longer, so its more a matter of learning different bonding tricks and procedures as opposed to being able to just take the bunnies to a bonder – even the most experience bonder will probably not be able to bond a trio in just one session. There is a lot of information on this site, and you can check out the below links for more help/contacts/recommendations. Let us know what kind of questions you have as you learn about bonding!

http://www.ontariorabbits.org/

http://www.vrra.org/

[vashira]

Hello: I do not believe we have any rabbit rescues in Alberta at all. Such a shame. I have emailed vrra already asking them if they do bonding but haven’t recieved anything back yet.

I realize it would take more then one day to do the bonding, if I were lucky enough to find bonders near by. Could take a week or more. It would be

well worth it.

I’ve read of a lot of tricks, the car ride, washing machine, x pen in neutral area, kitchen table, bath tub. peanut butter on the cheeks (although I wonder about that one, given that nuts are not good for rabbits).

I guess my main question would be, should I start with what I feel will be the most difficult bond first (netherland dwarf female with my lionhead male)? or try what I feel will be the easier bonding, my male with my mini rex female?

I’ve done 4 dates on my kitchen table covered with a large towel and a litter box filled with hay…my male and my female mini rex. It hasn’t gone that badly.

1st one was 10 min. Male tried to bite female but was not obsessive about it.

Next 3 dates were 1 hr long. My female wants badly to be friends with my male, grooming his head for long periods of time. My male still tries to bite her but not constantly. A lot of the time he kind of ignores her. She is slightly afraid of him. He tends to try to bite whenever she tries to smell him or moves too fast.

He’s pretty easy for me to control though. I keep one hand gently on his back and that usually keeps him from trying to bite. I say no, be nice and usually that is enough. He is a very high strung rabbit (so is my female netherland dwarf).

The mini rex has not tried to bite him back, she really wants to be his friend.

Now, I’m very nervous about trying my newcomer, nd female with my male. She acts very hateful towards both my male and mini rex female, through the baby gates. I’m pretty sure if she tore into my male, he’d reciprocate just as badly. I really would like to make some attempt though, rather then give up before I’ve even tried.

None are caged. Male lives in living room. Mini rex has her own bedroom and the netherland dwarf is in the kitchen.

Any advice as to which two you would try first? Most difficult, easiest?

I’m thinking that my nd female and my male need a really scary first date…maybe the car? Do you have any other ideas for really scary dates?

I did try one 10 min bonding of the two females, on the table, hay filled litter box. ND female was fixated on biting my mini rex. I had to hold her the entire 10 min. The only other thing she did that was not trying to bite my other female, was jumping out of the litter box onto the table. I did not let her budge. Maybe it was a bit too close for her to start?

 

Any thoughts from Moobunnay and Becka27?

Thanks for any advice and for both you you replying to my post.

 

 

 

[Beka27]

you are correct that you’ll need to bond two into a pair, and then introduce the third. i have never bonded a trio before, only a pair (a difficult bond, and only once) but my thought is to try to bond the most difficult first. then introduce the easiest into the pair. sex aside, who is the most easygoing bunny? during bonding, they will need to be housed separately in the same room so they can see and smell each other at all times. do you have a neutral, or somewhat neutral, area where you can set up a couple xpens or cages? side by side with a few inches in between.

and rather than a table as a bonding space, is there someplace on a floor they can go?  bathroom, bathtub, empty walk-in closet.  they need to be able to walk around comfortably and i’m worried that if they fight, they might end up flinging themselves off the table, that could result in major injury.

[vashira]

Posted By Beka27 on 09/13/2008 7:31 AM

you are correct that you’ll need to bond two into a pair, and then introduce the third. i have never bonded a trio before, only a pair (a difficult bond, and only once) but my thought is to try to bond the most difficult first. then introduce the easiest into the pair. sex aside, who is the most easygoing bunny? during bonding, they will need to be housed separately in the same room so they can see and smell each other at all times. do you have a neutral, or somewhat neutral, area where you can set up a couple xpens or cages? side by side with a few inches in between.

and rather than a table as a bonding space, is there someplace on a floor they can go?  bathroom, bathtub, empty walk-in closet.  they need to be able to walk around comfortably and i’m worried that if they fight, they might end up flinging themselves off the table, that could result in major injury.

Hi Beka27..definitely my mini rex female is the easiest going.  Munchkins, my boy, has been free run since he was a little baby. I think to lock him

up would cause him a great deal of distress. Would they need to “live” in cages or x pens during the entire bonding attempt?  Munch and Amethyst

can smell and see each other now. Amethyst is in the kitchen, Munch in the living room, separated by a baby gate. They try to bite each other through

it.

I think it’s a good suggestion you made to “not” use the kitchen table for them. I think it may be a very volatile situation and who knows how much

flinging they will do.

I’m guessing it would be best to use towels in the tub? I think they’d only try to get out if they couldn’t walk without slipping. My basement is

 

completely neutral, unfinished though with cement flooring.

If I managed to bond them (big IF), would you then suggest I add Pearl to both of them at one time or try to bond her with each of them seperately?

Thanks again, you are the only person to reply to my “which to bond first” question. I’d emailed several experts but not had any replies to it.

Marie.

 

 

[2buns2luv]

Hi Vashira
I’m going through the bonding process with my 4 holland lops. We have 3 females (1 altered) and a male. I noticed that you said you were in calgary, that’s where I’m located also. I’m not too sure what part of the city you’re in but the humane society in the SW is offering a bunny seminar for new owners and for people who are experienced bunny slaves.

[2buns2luv]

This photo was taken about 10 minutes ago. Shadow (left) is from our pre-bonded female pair. Clyde (right) was adopted on July 16th of this year with his cage mate Bunny. Shadow has NOT been neutered but thankfully Clyde HAS been. Clyde and Shadow can be often seen cuddling and occasionally grooming one another. Shadow was VERY aggressive towards him during their first few “dates” in the washroom but we decided to have them out in the living room together with close supervision and as you can see they’re getting close. We can now have Shadow,Clyde and Shadow’s cagemate Luna (female, not pictured) out together for long periods of time without worrying about them fighting. It does take patience, love and the occasional treat but it is well worth it. Our buns do, however live seperately (Shadow and Luna in one x pen, Clyde and his cagemate Bunny in another) but they are next to each other with a spare litter tray laying sideways as a barrier between the two so they can see one another but not get close enough to bite. So far so good.

 

 

191351132271.jpg

[2buns2luv]

Oops keep hitting submit by accident……. I’m know your set up is different from ours but we found the x pens to be wonderful coz not only do they make spacious cages but they can be also used outside when you want to take your buns outside to enjoy some sunshine.

[Beka27]

take it one step at a time. worry first about bonding the two, and then we’ll re-evaluate how Pearl should be introduced. my opinion is that they need to be caged side by side so there is some level of forced interaction. they can (and should) have separate runtimes of course, but their “home base” should be together. once they are bonded, they will need to be caged together for a full two weeks to cement this bond, so you might as well get him used to being penned up now. and remember… this whole time is just temporary, so once they are all bonded together, you can slowly introduce free roam to the whole bunch. he may be a bit annoyed by it at first, but the benefit he will receive from having friends will be so much greater in the longrun.

here is what i did while bonding with two side by side xpens… i moved them closer and closer together, and then they were sharing only one set of panels betw/ them.  bonding sessions got longer, to over an hour a day, and within 3 weeks, they were living together fulltime.

[vashira]

Thank you so much people..It looks like the x pens are going to be the only way to go. Just trying to figure out where I could put them. Other then the cold unfinished basement (which I won’t do) I think the only option is in the middle of my living room. It won’t be possible to watch TV in there or have a l room table but it would be temporary, as Beka has mentioned, it’s all temporary and be worth the inconvenience to all involved.

Beka27, those X Pens are very nice, do you know what the size is?  I think that would be a nice size to get.

Since Munch (as well as other previous buns) lived in the living room, the odors from bunnies before, is still there. Do you think putting down

area rugs would be enough?

 

[vashira]

Posted By 2buns2luv on 09/13/2008 11:56 PM
Oops keep hitting submit by accident……. I’m know your set up is different from ours but we found the x pens to be wonderful coz not only do they make spacious cages but they can be also used outside when you want to take your buns outside to enjoy some sunshine.

 

Wow, that’s great 2buns2luv. It gives me hope that it is possible, even when volatile at first. I’m glad things are going so well with your buns.

My male does not seem interested in the humping thing at all. My new female (the aggressive one) humps the stuffed bunny (I rubbed the stuffed bunny all over my male).  While visiting with me on my bed, she’s tried to mount my head as well. LOL

My easiest going female, the mini rex did try to mount my male munchkins, the first time they had a date (10 min). She’s had dates with my male, 4 or 5 times, of an hour each, since then and she has not tried to do that again. My male tries to nip her if she moves or tries to get close to smell him.

Thank you all for the tips and recommendations. I’d been hoping, someone, somewhere would do that so I’d know how to start it. (especially which rabbits to start with first).

I’ll look around for some x pens and keep you updated.

PS   Beka, I’m not sure if the litter boxes in your x pens are where they are for the photo. I think my buns may go to the bathroom, at the inside edge of the x pens, to mark their territory. Should I keep the boxes, on the inside edge where their two pens will meet?

 

 

[Beka27]

that’s interesting you mention about the litterboxes.  i read a great article from House Rabbit Network every single day when i was bonding.  i actually printed it out (it’s about 10 pages), and i kept it on my desk. 

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/bond.shtml

from that article:

 Taking Your New Bunny Home

I would have two cages set up for the rabbits side by side, about three inches apart. It is important to keep the cages slightly apart because they will sometimes try to bite each other through the wires. Many rabbits have scars on their lips from this. You do want them in the same room so they can communicate with each other. I will often place the litter boxes on the far side, away from the other cage. Greens are typically placed in the side closest to the other cage. Eating is a social activity and this will force them to be a little social. Lastly, I have the rabbits switch cages every night. This way they get used to living with the other rabbit’s scent and neither gets too possessive about either cage.

 

i did things exactly like this.  every evening they were switched betw/ the pens.  i left the used litterboxes and food dishes where they were, i only moved the bunnies, nothing else.  litterboxes are a more territorial area, so that’s why they are kept on opposite sides.  like the article says, eating is the socal activity, so have that happen closer together.

my female mini rex, Meadow, sneaking some of Max’s veggies.  this was later on in the bonding process b/c they were sharing one set of bars instead of a larger space.

during bonding time, they would have a big plate of veggies to share and a litterbox with hay.  there was some territorialness of the litterbox, so i would do forced snuggling inside the box by lifting them in together and petting both at the same time.

 it was a long process (3 weeks altho it felt longer), but it’s well worth every minute once they’re bonded and living peacefully.  keep at it, every single day.  if you have a camera, you might want to take pictures and post them on here so we can evaluate the body positions.  it’s easier to explain if there are pics to go along.  better yet, if your camera has a video feature, that works too.  i have some bonding videos on my youtube account (username: Beka27)  let us know how it goes.

[vashira]

Are your x pens 36 ” tall?

[vashira]

OK, I’ve been looking for x pens. Do you guys think 3 ft tall is high enough to keep them in?

This is step one for me. Would love to get this started tomorrow. Have two x pens and be ready to go.

Thanks.

Marie.

[2buns2luv]

becka your bonding cages look exactly how my current bun set up is at the moment, except we have a cat litter tray on it’s side to separate the 2 x pens coz our older female (Bunny) isnt embracing the bonding process as well as her partner Clyde.

[2buns2luv]

We have 2 sized x pens, one is 24inches and the other is 30 inches. Neither pair have tried to jump over even when sitting on top of their dome houses. I personally prefer the 24inch one as I’m shorter and I find the pen is easier to lean over to give pats,change water and restock their hay trough. The 30inch one we use for the older buns and we have it secured at the front so it opens like a door. The x pens comes with 2 clip style locks and it’s amazing how many shapes you can form the pens into. It took us a little while experimenting with different shapes before we settled on one that not only works with the space we have but also gives the buns plenty of room to run and lounge around in. I think from memory they were about $100 each, but I think quite a few bunny parents would agree with me when I say it’s a good investment.

What part of Alberta/BC are you from?

[vashira]

Thanks for the info 2buns2luv. I’m in NW Calgary, Citadel to be exact. Where abouts are you?
I’ve seen 3 ‘ and 4’ tall pens so I think I’m going to go with the 3 ft size.

[Beka27]

i’m sorry, i started posting pics and i forgot to answer you on the xpen question. yes, mine are 36 inches tall. they make them shorter (24 inches) but i just think that’s too short. even if your current bunnies are not jumpers, you might use it in the future for another bunny and that one might be a jumper. there is also the 42 inch tall, which works if your bunnies do try and jump over high things. i used to have Meadow in a NIC grid pen (28 inches tall) and she never tried to get over, so i figured i’d be alright with the 36.

i agree, they are a great investment. very sturdy, they can be easily moved from area to area, or even outside if you take your bunnies outside (of course, with supervision!) i now have the two pens combined in a large 8×4 foot pen.

[vashira]

Thanks. I’ll get the 3 footers.
I’m putting them in the living room, which is where Munch lives free run. Do you think it will be ok if I use area rugs so it’s “more” neutral?

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Hi Vashira! I’m in Edmonton and we just started the first rabbit rescue in Alberta recently!! Our sites under construction but we’ll be http://www.radrabbits.com

Area rugs would help

[vashira]

Posted By Kokaneeandkahlua on 09/14/2008 10:17 PM
Hi Vashira! I’m in Edmonton and we just started the first rabbit rescue in Alberta recently!! Our sites under construction but we’ll be http://www.radrabbits.com

Area rugs would help

 

Fantastic Kokaneeandkahlua…wtg!  We really needed one desperately. Thanks for telling me about it and about the rugs

I’ll check out your site and spread the word about your rescue to my other bunny parents.

Marie.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Hey thanks so much!! I’ve always always (ok since I was five) wanted to start a rescue and since I got into rabbits realized the need for a rabbit rescue. I have the amazing oppurtunity of knowing an incredible lady who runs the horse rescue I volunteer coordinate for, and she wanted to start a rabbit rescue too! So we’re rolling, we have ten rabbits (took in eight this weekend) and things are going great! You just gave me the idea of doing boarding/bonding for fundraising (we’re adopting at fifty a bunny, but paying 130-190 for speuter, so we’ll need to fundraise)!! Thanks for the idea

[2buns2luv]

That’s awesome you’re starting a rabbit rescue K&K !!! I wish there was one here in Calgary also.

I’m in the SW part of the city Vashira, Altadore. Nice area, lots of pet stores for our ever growing furry family.

[vashira]

Ok, I now have two X Pens, all cleaned. Also just finished washing some area rugs that will go underneath them. I’ll make sure I put the litter boxes at the far end and their food and veggies at the inside edge. So, I’ll start about 3″ apart?
Is it ok to give them little houses or toys in there or should it be bare boned, just the box and food and drink?
Also, is it advisable to take them out to visit with me? Munchkins has slept on my bed since he was little. Amethyst, although I’ve only had her since Sept 3rd, has gotten used to cuddling on my bed with me before Munch’s bedtime.
Will them having visit times with me,  take away from their reliance on each other for company?
As much as I love to cuddle with them, if it will make bonding tougher, then I won’t.
Can I start the “dates” the same day as they get moved into the x pens? Or should I give them a bit of time to get used to their new homes?
I will switch them every night, to the other pen and leave their food and litter boxes where they are.
Is there anything else you think is important, at this stage of the bonding game?
I’m so glad I found you guys/gals, you seem to be the only group who cares enough to reply and help me out. I feel I actually have direction now.

Thanks so much all of you for your input.

Marie.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Sounds like your all set up!! No need to go bare bones, you can give them toys, and you can still have cuddle time with them. When you get further along, their only ‘out’ time should be bonding sessions but at this point, your fine to still have cuddles. That’s so sweet Munchkins sleeps with you!!

[Beka27]

Posted By vashira on 09/15/2008 10:33 PM

Ok, I now have two X Pens, all cleaned. Also just finished washing some area rugs that will go underneath them. I’ll make sure I put the litter boxes at the far end and their food and veggies at the inside edge. So, I’ll start about 3″ apart?
Is it ok to give them little houses or toys in there or should it be bare boned, just the box and food and drink?
Also, is it advisable to take them out to visit with me? Munchkins has slept on my bed since he was little. Amethyst, although I’ve only had her since Sept 3rd, has gotten used to cuddling on my bed with me before Munch’s bedtime.
Will them having visit times with me,  take away from their reliance on each other for company?
As much as I love to cuddle with them, if it will make bonding tougher, then I won’t.
Can I start the “dates” the same day as they get moved into the x pens? Or should I give them a bit of time to get used to their new homes?
I will switch them every night, to the other pen and leave their food and litter boxes where they are.
Is there anything else you think is important, at this stage of the bonding game?
I’m so glad I found you guys/gals, you seem to be the only group who cares enough to reply and help me out. I feel I actually have direction now.

Thanks so much all of you for your input.

Marie.

i would give them lil hidey houses or boxes or toys, whatever they like, but remember that when you switch the sides each night, ONLY the bunny moves.  everything else stays.  so they have to play with the “other bun’s” toys.  sleep in the “other bun’s” house, and potty in the “other bun’s” litterbox.  be prepared, there’s goes to be territorial marking, but you can just go everyday and sweep up (or suck if you have a handvac).  it’s par for the course and it will reduce over time.

they can still have normal runtime, but i would start to limit it. temporarily  instead of several hours a day, give each maybe 2-3 hours separately.  they will be penned more, but that’s time when they will be right nest to the other bunny, and again, it’s only during the bonding process.  like K&K said, eventually, their only outtime will be while they are bonding.  that reinforces to them that if they want out, they better get used to that other bunny being out too.

you can start with a bonding session right away.  have you figured out a neutral place where neither bunny has been?  bathroom, guest bedroom, walk-in closet, mudroom?  you want a small area, no bigger than about 6 feet square.  i learned that the hard way.  i was bonding in my bedroom and each bun was taking a side and ignoring the other.  they need to be close enough where they HAVE TO interact. 

some supplies to have on hand: 

clean! water squirt bottle:  if they start to get aggressive, soak ’em.  they will have to stop to groom and get the yucky water off.  if you squirt too late and they are in a full-on fight, the squirt is not going to stop them, so get them before it gets bad.

small, empty laundry basket:  i kept this handy, if i saw a bad fight about ready to start, i would very carefully lower the basket (upside down!) over whichever bun was closer.  this kept them apart, but they could still see and smell each other.  it’s a much better alternative them reaching your arms into the fight where you will get scratched or bitten.  allow them to cool off for 30 seconds, and then remove the basket, try again.

litterbox with hay, plate of greens to share.

camera, if you have one.

phone and drink (anything you might need during the bonding time)  you won’t be able to leave the room to go answer a ringing phone or get a glass of water, so have one near you if you need.

 

you can start short (ten to fifteen minutes).  i always did one hour at least, but you can always work up to that.

keep us posted!  i am confident that you will be able to do this.  most importantly, take it a day at a time.  around the week mark, you might get discouraged, but keep up with it.  everyday without fail!  it can be done!

[vashira]

Thank you Beka27, I’ll follow your instructions to a T.

Amethyst seems to quite like her x pen,  Munch on the otherhand went into a terrible panic. Trying to climb the bars, jumping, looking at me like he was going to cry. I felt so sorry for him. He’s so used to being free run. I had to put some large folded cardboard boxes on top to keep him in.

I imagine he’ll get use to it.

I could start bonding date number 1 in the tub. It’s the only place neither have been in, other then the basement, which we could use later on.

Should I put towels in the tub? I think it could turn into a panic attack for them if they slip.

Thanks again for the descriptive instructions. It helps me a ton.

 

Marie.

 

 

 

 

[Beka27]

from what i’ve read, the “slipperiness” of the tub is actually a GOOD thing. they will be unsure of what to make of it and that should prevent them from going for each other. if possible, you might want to have a family member or friend with you the first couple times, just in case. so if they need intervening, there is someone there to help, at least until you are feeling more comfortable. it’s important that you be confident and stern. if you continue to baby them during this time, it might be harder to get the job done. of course, you can go back to spoiling AFTER they’re all bonded!

[vashira]

Should I change their litter boxes everyday, when they switch to the other x pen or leave it a day for them to get used to the other buns poops?

[Beka27]

how often do you clean out litterboxes normally? i clean out litterboxes every 2-4 days, it really depends on my schedule and how dirty they are. so if you switch like clockwork every night, there’s going to be poop and pee in the boxes from each bunny. you want them to use the other bunnies dirty box. the scent is there and they need to get used to it. as soon as i would switch sides, most times each bun would go to the “other’s” box and pee in it ASAP to mark it as theirs. give it a try. don’t be shocked if there are territorial poops around the whole cage tho. just sweep em up once a day and redeposit into the box.

here’s an example:

clean litterbox on monday:  Max overnight

tuesday: Meadow overnight

wednesday: Max overnight

Dirty box on thursday (clean out and start all over again): Meadow overnight

and it just continues like that. 

an easy way i found to switch sides each night without a lot of commotion was switching while one bunny was out playing.  the bunny that was penned would get carried over and that door closed.  the other pen would be left open.  so when the playing bunny returned to “go home” they saw that “their side” was now occupied and they would automatically hop in the other side.

[vashira]

Posted By Beka27 on 09/18/2008 7:52 AM

how often do you clean out litterboxes normally? i clean out litterboxes every 2-4 days, it really depends on my schedule and how dirty they are. so if you switch like clockwork every night, there’s going to be poop and pee in the boxes from each bunny. you want them to use the other bunnies dirty box. the scent is there and they need to get used to it. as soon as i would switch sides, most times each bun would go to the “other’s” box and pee in it ASAP to mark it as theirs. give it a try. don’t be shocked if there are territorial poops around the whole cage tho. just sweep em up once a day and redeposit into the box.

here’s an example:

clean litterbox on monday:  Max overnight

tuesday: Meadow overnight

wednesday: Max overnight

Dirty box on thursday (clean out and start all over again): Meadow overnight

and it just continues like that. 

an easy way i found to switch sides each night without a lot of commotion was switching while one bunny was out playing.  the bunny that was penned would get carried over and that door closed.  the other pen would be left open.  so when the playing bunny returned to “go home” they saw that “their side” was now occupied and they would automatically hop in the other side.

 

 

Thanks Beka27. I waited last night to clean out their litter boxes, wasn’t sure if I should or not. I took a chance and left them dirty.

I usually clean them about the same as you.

I can tell you that my female is very territorial. My male ignores her.

When I put her in his x pen, she was fine, snooping around. When I put him into her x pen he was interested and looked around, she became very agitated, attacking her food bowl and carpet. She was enraged that he was in her x pen.

I hope that my putting them into each others pen everynight changes her behaviour. She’s not impressed.

I woke up this morning and she had pulled “strings” from the carpet. Both of them seem to be peeing in the litter boxes, no accidents anywhere yet. A few poops scattered here and there.

I think the biggest obstacle is my female being so territorial.

Munchkins became very distressed when I locked him up to the point that I started to worry about Stasis. I let him spend about half the night in my bedroom before returning him to the x pen. He is sensitive emotionally and went into stasis both times that he lost a bonded partner (just over a month ago was the last time) so I’m easing him into the lock up situation.

I’m am somewhat worried about Amethyst though,  can they overcome being that territorial?

 

 

 

[Beka27]

they can overcome being that territorial, it may not be perfect, but she should be able to bond.

[vashira]

Update on Date #1…bathtub. Planned on 10 min date. First 7 min were both trying to nip each other, female (Amethyst)was worse. She got tiny bit of fur, very very little one time. I sprayed her each time to prevent a fight. After 7 min, both just sat there, breathing fast about 3 inches away from each others faces. Very uneventful, except small treat they both ate. At the 25 min mark, female mounted male, number of times. He did not try to bite her, only to get away. This went on for about 5 min and was getting to be a bit much for my male (Munchkins). Removed them both and back to x pen.
Well it wasn’t love at first sight but it definitely went better then I expected.
In half an hour only 7 min of nipping (attempted).

[Beka27]

you want to try and end on good terms. so after some time of either good behavior (or at least “not bad” behavior) that’s when you want to treat and return to their pens.

[vashira]

I gave them a treat once they had completely stopped trying to nip, just sitting there looking at each other.
I gave them another small treat right before I put them back in the x pen.
When they were sitting there not doing anything for about 15 min, I did put them next to each other and pet them both at the same time. It was peaceful but I was watching Amethyst closely, she turned her head in towards him, I just put my hand on her back gently and nothing happened.

[Beka27]

her turning towards him might have been a request for grooms. did she lower her head while she did it.

[vashira]

Not really, it was level and turned towards him (like she was going to bite). There was a point in time where she did lower it in front of him, like she was being shy and hoping he would groom her. He didn’t do anything, she just sat there with her head stretched towards him and down.

[vashira]

Ok, I posted some videos of Munchkins and Amethyst’s 2nd bathtub date. They are listed backwards in order from last to first…ie date 2 pt 8 is listed first but is the last video taken of the date.
Please, if anyone has time to have a look at them and offer any tips or suggestions, maybe things I should or should not be doing, pls let me know.
If you don’t have time to watch all of them (pretty long) the ones that have the most actions are pt 4, pt 5, pt 6, pt 7.

Thanks for your support. If the link below doesn’t not take you to the dating videos (it should) then my albums are listed on the left side, go to Amethyst and Munch dates.

http://s217.photobucket.com/albums/cc240/vashiras/Amethyst%20and%20Munch%20Dates/?albumview=link

[Beka27]

your bunnies are gorgeous! i think that went so well for only the second date. the fact that there was grooming betw/ both of them is awesome. only let them hump for a short time, no longer than about 20 seconds. you were doing the right thing by petting Munch during. try and keep them side by side more than face to face. as they approach each other, try and swing them so they are together, i think that’s a bit safer than in they fight at each other’s faces. after a bit more of this, you can start introducing some food into the equation. i used a large dinner plate instead of their regular bowl, so they could each eat on opposite sides without being too close since that can cause some territorial behavior.

and i loved your narration. i found it very entertaining!

what kind of bunnies are they? Amet looks “rexy” and does Munch have some angora in him, those fuzzy ears are the greatest!

[vashira]

Posted By Beka27 on 09/21/2008 7:35 AM
your bunnies are gorgeous! i think that went so well for only the second date. the fact that there was grooming betw/ both of them is awesome. only let them hump for a short time, no longer than about 20 seconds. you were doing the right thing by petting Munch during. try and keep them side by side more than face to face. as they approach each other, try and swing them so they are together, i think that’s a bit safer than in they fight at each other’s faces. after a bit more of this, you can start introducing some food into the equation. i used a large dinner plate instead of their regular bowl, so they could each eat on opposite sides without being too close since that can cause some territorial behavior.

and i loved your narration. i found it very entertaining!

what kind of bunnies are they? Amet looks “rexy” and does Munch have some angora in him, those fuzzy ears are the greatest!

 

Hi Beka27:

Thank you so much for taking the time to watch the videos and give me some input. I will make sure Amethyst doesn’t hump Munch for long

periods. With her though, as soon as she is removed from her humping, she starts again. (kind of has a one track mind LOL). Munch on the

other hand, has not tried humping. Since I had him neutered he completely lost that. I know with Amethyst, it’s probably just a domineering thing

and nothing more.

Do you recommend to keep doing the bathtub dates or move somewhere else?

Amethyst is a Netherland Dwarf (3 pounder) and Munchkins is a Lionhead (4 pounder). My 3rd bunny who is out of the picture so far, Pearl, is a

Mini Rex (I haven’t weighed her in a while but she’s probably 5.5 lbs, the biggest of the 3)

I’ll do a few more dates then bring in the salads.

Munchkins is a funny little guy. I’ve had many many rabbits and he’s very different, in character. As a baby, he was so high strung, I kind of

regretted having gotten him. He was bouncing off the walls. With a bit of maturity, he’s calmed down a lot. He makes me laugh, he jumps up on

my bed about 2 ft too high and lands, like on a trampoline.  He has a love/hate relationship with affection. Like he hates me hugging and kissing

him, he struggles to get away but at the same time he toothpurrs uncontrollably. It’s really funny.

Marie

 

 

 

[Beka27]

i’d stay in the tub until they’re not trying to bite anymore, or it’s very rare. do you have another semi-neutral place available?

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Something you could try is wetting their faces a little bit, to encourage them to groom each other. Or you could put a wee bit of banana on both of their faces or ears-that will sometime initiate grooming!

They are both sooo cute!!!

[vashira]

Ok. I’ll stay with the tub. Last night (date 4) Munch was acting upset about the tub thing. He dug and tried to bite it. He’s not a digger normally. He seemed to also be less tolerant of Amethyst’s mounting.  It might have had nothing to do with the tub, maybe he was upset about something else (like being locked up) or the fact that I had company the night before (he’s deathly afraid of everyone except his mom )

I do like the tub for this though, I’m comfortable with the slipping. Easy to stop them from attacking and slide them away..

I have my basement, unfinished. Cement floor probably be good for not being able to have a grip. Kitchen table as well. Now that I see how they behave together, it’s not as volatile as I was expecting and maybe the table would be ok later on.

Thanks Beka27

 

Marie

[vashira]

Posted By Kokaneeandkahlua on 09/22/2008 11:15 AM
Something you could try is wetting their faces a little bit, to encourage them to groom each other. Or you could put a wee bit of banana on both of their faces or ears-that will sometime initiate grooming!

They are both sooo cute!!!

 

Thanks for the compliment Kokaneeandkahlua and the tips. I appreciate those tips more then you all realize.

 

Marie.

[vashira]

Well, dates 3 and 4 didn’t go as well as date 2 (posted on photobucket earlier) but they weren’t that bad. Munch has no tolerance for Amethyst’s mounting.
Tonight was date 5 and was the best so far. Still some nips, mostly when Amethyst tries to mount Munch. Also, when she starts grooming him she starts it with a nip then grooms him. Grooming sessions are getting longer by both of them.

Here is date 5 videos on photo bucket

http://s217.photobucket.com/albums/cc240/vashiras/Amethyst%20and%20Munch%20Dates/Amethyst%20and%20Munch%20Date%205/

[vashira]

I have a question. As I’ve mentioned, Munch has been sleeping in my room since he was a baby. I’ve also allowed Amethyst to visit with me on the bed, on her own blanket. She managed to get down once (I had been stopping her because once it starts,,,you know). So now when I bring her in there she doesn’t stay on the bed (comes to visit up there though)…I’m wondering whether this is a good idea. I eventually want all of those whom I’ve managed to bond, to be able to come and sleep with me and visit with me in the evenings there. Should I keep all of them out of my bedroom so none regard it as “their” bedroom?
Munch has been there for so long, I doubt he would not regard it as his place but the other two rabbits have not “claimed” it yet.
Should I keep them out or can they each come visit, one at a time?
I don’t want to ruin things for later.

Thanks for any advice.

Marie

[Beka27]

i would keep them all out for now. they are all going to have very limited run areas during the bonding period. after they are solidly bonded, you can reintroduce them to the room as a group.

[vashira]

Posted By Beka27 on 09/23/2008 2:31 PM
i would keep them all out for now. they are all going to have very limited run areas during the bonding period. after they are solidly bonded, you can reintroduce them to the room as a group.

Once again thank you Beka27. I was really wondering about that one.

Marie.

 

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I’ll ditto that ^^ Although it would be hard-it’s nice having them in your room

[vashira]

Update…I think we’re making progress, what do you think?
We’ve done 12 dates, last 6 have been in one of the X pens. There is no longer any mutual wanting to fight. My female Amethyst tries to nip Munch pretty regularily but not as ferociously as she was. Little nips now and he runs and no longer wants to fight with her. I think he’s given up on trying to be boss. He’s afraid of her and runs when she comes near, he hides behind or beside me. She’s definitely the boss and I don’t think he even cares, he just wants her to stop trying to nip him. He does go and smell her, but not often and only when she’s busy eating or grooming herself, then he backs off and comes to sit near me. She’s very relaxed in the x pen when not trying to nip him and often lays all stretched out. He’s mostly on edge. Also, quite often when she comes near him, he turns his back, I think he is thinking that he is not taking an offensive stance this way. I don’t feel he’s being aloof, he’s afraid. She wants him to groom her sometimes but he doesn’t want to (gee wonder why).
They did have one really decent date, #8, where he groomed her head a lot. That date was about 4 hrs long. Since then, there has been no lovey dovey stuff at all.
Here is the good date…8 on photobucket, the videos are plentiful but if you want to see the lovely dovey video, it’s date 8 pt 8. They’re a bit on the dark side but still viewable.

http://s217.photobucket.com/albums/cc240/vashiras/Amethyst%20and%20Munch%20Dates/Amethyst%20and%20Munch%20Date%208%20X%20Pen/

I think at this point, washer dates and car dates would not do much. She might behave during those dates but her character is such that she would become bossy again when in a more comfortable situation.

Marie.

[vashira]

Ok. I really need some advice again. I feel like I’m no longer sure which direction to go in. We just had date 15 (1st 6 in the tub, last 9 in an X Pen). Amethyst continues to nip Munch regularily. Munch continues to run. He does not want to fight or try to bite back. He wants peace. I’ve been spraying her with water pretty well every time. It doesn’t seem to be working in stopping her from nipping him, just stops her for the time being. I did leave them together in the X Pen last night for about 2 hrs, I was right beside it but not inside it. I thought she’d really take advantage of the “referee” no longer being in the pen and bite him more. She didn’t. It was the same. I did have to step in 2-3 times to stop her nipping.
My question is this:
Do I continue to spray her every single time she nips him? Do I leave her alone some of the time, and allow her to nip him (most of the time there is no fur at all pulled, odd time there is a little) or do I just leave them alone, let her nip all she wants.
There are pretty decent periods of peace in the pen as well as regular nipping from her.
Just not sure which direction to take it now.

Thanks again everyone.

Marie.

[vashira]

PS, I do want to say that in the past, when there was grooming on Amethyst’s part, it usually started with her nipping Munch’s forhead then she groomed.
so if I do continue to spray her and stop her nipping, it may never advance to grooming either. Not sure what to do here.

Marie.

[Beka27]

my Max was very scared of Meadow b/c she was always lunging at him anytime he hopped close. you have to get past the fear or else there won’t be a bond. they need to both be able to go up to the other with no fear, no nipping from either side. one being aggressive and one cowering is not good b/c that’s going to actually reverse the progess.

for the nipping, you need to spray her before she nips. don’t allow any nipping of any kind. grooming is great, but not at the expense of nipping. that can always come later. if she starts to go for him, SQUIRT. if she moves too fast towards him, SQUIRT. this is going to take undivided attention from you. when i was first bonding, i tried to read a book, then i tried to watch Oprah… and i just could not do it. i had to stare at the buns, finger on the trigger the whole time.

i would continue to be in there with them and do forced snuggling, in the litterbox if you want. put them side to side and give them both head rubs at the same time. do they eat together yet? this is a big bonding activity, having a plate of green and some hay in the litterbox. you might even break out some special hay that they both love (Meadow, Orchard, Oat)…

[vashira]

Thank you so much Beka27. If you hadn’t replied, I would probably have taken it upon myself to allow Amethyst “to get it out of her” thinking maybe once she felt that she was boss, she would stop nipping.

I will from now on, once again, sit in the pen and spray every single time she runs at him or moves fast towards him.  I will give my undivided attention.

As far as forced snuggling goes, Amethyst immediately tries to bite him. I’ll make sure I hold her head straight and not allow her to turn towards him.

They have eaten together. I had read to wait until they behaved and then reward them with their salad or treats, but Amethyst never seems to behave anymore. I think we had more success in the tub then the x pen. Maybe I should have stayed there.

I then started to give them treats and salads, even if Amethyst was not behaving. They’ve had 2-3 salads and treats. Two days ago, I gave them their salad. Amethyst tried to bite Munch so I took the salad away. A few minutes later, I put it back on the floor. She did not try to bite him again. They ate together. Maybe, since she does not behave very often, I should just automatically give them their salad anyways, just so they have some “good moments” together??

They do have a litter box of hay always placed in the xpen at date time. I use a really good quality brome from a farmer here and they love it. I don’t know that they would care for store bought hay anymore after getting used to their sweet smelling fresh hay,  but I might try orchard and see if they do. They love the brome but have it all of the time so it’s not so special.

Now that I have direction  (was feeling a little lost again) I’ll continue and hope that eventually, the desire to nip stops.

Thank you again so much.

 

Marie

[vashira]

Update! They’re bonded 

 

I want to thank everyone here who helped me make this a success. 22 dates later and it’s young love. No more nipping, just occasional attempts at mounting by my girl.

I saw things really turn around once I started to become strict with Amethyst’s nipping. After that, things started to become much more lovey between them. Munch was less afraid and approached her more. Lot’s of mutual grooming and cuddling.

 

Amethyst and Munch spent the last 2 evenings free run in my bedroom/bed. No problems. Lot’s of binkying by both on the bed and off. They’re in love.

I’ll be taking down the 2 X Pens from my living room (will be able to see the T.V. once again not to mention have company again.

I’m sooooo happy.

Hugs to you Beka27 for all of your wise advice and to you KokaneeandKahlua and 2Buns2Luv for your input as well.

I was lost without you.
Thanks for all of the effort and time you put into helping other bunnies and their parents.

*Hugs*, Marie, Amethyst + Munch, and Pearl.

 

 

 

 

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[Kokaneeandkahlua]

OMG OMG OMG They are waaay too cute together!!! Congratulations on finishing the bond-you must be so happy!!! Sometimes it can get frustrating but when they get together finally to make pictures like that ^^^ it’s all worth it! Wow we need more pics of those sweeties

[Beka27]

AGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

they are so adorable together! i love it! if i had them they’d never get a moments rest. i would wear them in a baby carrier on my chest and just carry them around…

is your bedroom the final location for them? now that they’re bonded, it’s very important that you do not take them back aopart for at least two weeks straight. consider it the honeymoon phase…

[vashira]

Thank you…

They’re in the bedroom still now. Nothing bad happened during the night, everything still great. Amethyst trying to mount him is nearly non existant now.

I’m taking down the Xpens from the living room and as soon as that’s all cleaned up, they will live free run in the entire house, with exeption of the spare bedroom (Pearls room).

Now, I don’t even know if I should try to add Pearl to the mix. It could unbound them. I do feel sorry for her though, she gets little attention in her bedroom. If I do try to add her, it won’t be until Munch and Amethyst are “really” bonded.

If I did try, should I do it the same way (Munch and Amethyst living in 1 Xpen and Pearl in the other Xpen right next to it?)

Maybe I should just get Pearl a bunny boy for company. I’m not sure I want to lock Munch and Amethyst up again once they’re used to being free run.

Anyways, either way, two bonded is better then 3 not bonded.

I’m really happy.

I have 3 videos of them on my bed, once they had bonded here if anyone wants to see.

http://s217.photobucket.com/albums/cc240/vashiras/Amethyst%20and%20Munch%20Dates/Amethyst%20and%20Munch%20Bonded/

 

Marie

[BunnyMuffin]

Wow! That’s great – congrats! I love Mr. Munch and his little furry ears. 🙂

[jerseygirl]

Marie, those pics of Amethyst and Munch are adorable! I just love how they are posing. As K&K said, it must make it worth it to see them like that at the end. Congratulations!

Beka and the baby carrier, lol.

[Beka27]

let me try and do some research on bonding in a thrid. that’s not something i’ve done. i would think that you’d want to wait awhile to really get their bond set (at least a few months from this point…) i believe you would also have to do the bonding process with each separately: so Pearl and Munch together, then Pearl and Amethyst together, and then all three together… the trick is doing this without breaking the existing bond…

[vashira]

Thank you Beka27, I’d appreciate any further advice you might have. To think, when I first came here, all I wanted was to know if anyone knew of professional bonders near me. I had no desire to do it myself. I didn’t think it would be as easy as it ended up being..3 weeks is not so bad compared to some.
I just needed play by play directions.
I know the moderators and other folks here contribute a lot of time and effort in helping others. (I don’t know how you keep up)
Much appreciated, thank you again so much.

Marie.

[vashira]

Posted By jerseygirl on 10/15/2008 4:46 AM
Marie, those pics of Amethyst and Munch are adorable! I just love how they are posing. As K&K said, it must make it worth it to see them like that at the end. Congratulations!

Beka and the baby carrier, lol.

 

I have to comment on the Bunaholic part….Love it!!!

 

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