Litter training refresher Update March 5

[jerseygirl]

Ok. So I’ve been terribly slack on not getting on top of this problem sooner so it’s my own fault if things take a while to turn around.  I’ve just gotten so confused as to what exactly is going on too.  I won’t go into it all but try summarise things as they stand today.

Jersey is main culpit.  Habits deteriorated during bonding (to be expected) but never improved. So since June. Generally it’s the bunny area that is messed, not the rest of the house where they spend alot of time.  Though the kitchen is still a place she’ll mess from time to time. 

The peeing on the floor is VERY deliberate and dominance toward me I think.  Most times it is done in my presence. Other times I don’t know the trigger. Not unusual to mop up 2-3 puddles.  One night it was 5 consecutive times.   I have been trying to intervene this and scoot her to her box.  Then praise her.  But she’s so quick when she has in mind to pee on the floor.  It’s a sort of impatience thing when she’s wanting food and not instantly getting it. 

I shut them in this room overnight.  Every morning is lots of her droppings.  Rumballs are minimal.  Throughout the day she drop a few about there.  If I’m in there she’ll dance about waiting for food, dropping more about.  It never use to be this much.

She trained herself originally so I never had to cage her.  For a refresher – do I shut them up in the rabbit area even though this is the place most affected? Neither have forgotten how to use the box, it’s more a bad habit become the norm (my fault), and perhaps a territorial thing/dominance thing toward me.  Will shutting them up here re-establish the rules?  The space is 2×3 metres plus the adjoining laundry.  Would this be too large?  I could section of the laundry but putting a fence here will have her peeing along it.  Also, I’m going to be going out there to clean up the messes and my presence may trigger the peeing…I imagine it’ll get worse before it gets better.

So, do I just toughen up and shut them up and see what happens? Anything else I should be doing?  Though I can definately see the behavioural issue, I am concerned about her health, however I don’t think those things are leading to this loss of habits.

 

[Monkeybun]

Monkey has been doing the same thing lately, little goober. She has taken to going pee right behind the couch >:|

[Barbie]

Oh boy. Leroy had a similar issue for a week or so this summer… his litter box was too small and he let me know! He’d sit there with his butt hanging over the edge and when he saw me watching him, he’d pee straight over the side! So I know how you feel when they pee intentionally for your benefit!

I’m sorry to hear about this issue. Poor you…. since the summer! Yikes. Well, one thing I would make sure that you DON’T do is to not feed her any time after she’s intentionally peed/pooped. You mentioned that while waiting for food, Jersey dances around you, leaving droppings. You don’t want to be rewarding her for bad behavior. I know it won’t be much fun, but I’d recommend restricting them to their cage for a bit, until you get the litter box habits back under control.

Just throwing ideas out here…. If you think you’re the trigger, is there any way someone else can take over main bunny duties for awhile to see if that helps? Sad, I know, but maybe you can have “bun – time” with them in their litter boxes… I’m thinking, build a pen that’s only as big as the litter box and put it around the litter box in the normal location, put the buns in there and spend time giving treats and pets. That way, even if she’s being a stinker and peeing cus you’re around, she can’t miss!

How old is Jersey?  Do you think it might be incontinence?

[Deleted User]

Posted By jerseygirl on 12/01/2009 05:16 AM

The peeing on the floor is VERY deliberate and dominance toward me I think.  Most times it is done in my presence. Other times I don’t know the trigger. Not unusual to mop up 2-3 puddles.  One night it was 5 consecutive times.   I have been trying to intervene this and scoot her to her box.  Then praise her.  But she’s so quick when she has in mind to pee on the floor.  It’s a sort of impatience thing when she’s wanting food and not instantly getting it. 

I shut them in this room overnight.  Every morning is lots of her droppings.  Rumballs are minimal.  Throughout the day she drop a few about there.  If I’m in there she’ll dance about waiting for food, dropping more about.  It never use to be this much.

I agree with you about the peeing in your presence being for attentiion or a sign of her showing she’s the boss. –My impression overall, though, is that it is a marking behavior since it involves lots of droppings left during the night when you are not present.

I would add more litterboxes, more than there are rabbits so at least 3, better 4. I would even put one of the boxes smack in the centre of that room. The idea is that with more toilet stations she may feel her scent is well enough distributed.

What iis the flooring like in that room?

[Cassi&Charlie]

She’s still doing that? Poor you. I agree with Petzy, overwhelm her with litter trays and then move them away slowly. I have a vague memory that you might have done that in the kitchen? Obviously if you did, it was a temporary solution.
I’m not sure about locking them up in a smaller area, because if it is a dominance issue, it might make her more mad. I know that Charlie goes completely spare when I lock him in a smaller area, and his marking gets worse. In fact, once when I locked him in a smaller area he sprayed me, even though he’s been desexed!
Is that hay only in the litter box?

[Deleted User]

Posted By Charlie&Layla on 12/02/2009 02:52 PM
  In fact, once when I locked him in a smaller area he sprayed me, even though he’s been desexed!

Interesting.  Lint, neutered male, starts humping my others like mad when I cage them for cleaning their condo.

[jerseygirl]

Thanks guys.
To answer qu’s: Barbie, she is 2yrs old. This seems very controlled and deliberate peeing so not incontinence I don’t think. Good point on food reward. I do try be aware of that. When I get their greens ready and she happens to be there, I give her a leaf if she hasn’t soiled the floor. If she does, I remove her but I eventually serve their greens. I had thought enough times had past that she doesn’t associate it with the behaviour but perhaps not. When their area is messed I always clean it before I feed them. It’s become a routine though I don’t know if it’s a good one.

Petzy, they generally get fed pellets same time each day. If I’m late with it some mornings, this is when it’s poop bombed. Also if they’ve been active at earlier hours for some reason. So you think marking their space or marking against Rumball? More litter boxes….well I have plenty spare. Currently they have a big box, fits both in there with room to spare. Its the only place there is hay. I’ve had 2 maxium before, however when I remove boxes, they (especially her) will use that spot after. Did this happen with yours after you pared back the amount of boxes?
Sometimes, there is the pee over the side issue but this isn’t a biggy. It’s the puddles in other spots I need to sort.
The floor is vinyl – I put it in upside down for the traction. It was same as kitchen and I used to think this was a prob as both would sometime soil the kitchen, but I’ve changed it and still problem exists. I removed the old floor as the pee was getting underneath and I needed to get it really clean to try remedy this litter issue.  The littering on this floor is same as the former.

Cassi, previously when I posted on this Jersey was a single bun and peeing on the kitchen floor-in my presence. I had a box there from when she was younger then she started littering in front of it. This habit did improve…but she’ll still do it some. We’ve all been in the living room before and she’s gotten pissed of at me for some reason (removing her from couch or out from under a chair for example), I’ve seen her hop to the kitchen and go pee in that corner. I’ve ‘secretly’  followed her knowing that frame of mind! Lately, when I’ve been able to see the intent, I’ve herded her to the box and then praised her which is good but this only prevents some of the ‘accidents’.

Maybe I should keep some notes about so I can identify a real pattern. I sort of have a vague idea but it’s been a long time and my own guesses at the reasons have changed alot and gotten confused! I know that the before and during bonding this started. After the bond I accepted it an thought it would reduce. It didn’t. I can say they are litter trained other wise they entire house would be used, it’s the rabbit area that’s out of controll. I think Rumball does a bit sometimes too though not like Jersey. They’re not being very good advocates for trained house rabbits!! I have read that bad habits can take a good while to adjust so I guess I need a consistant way to work on this for a long period. The reduction of there space doesn’t seem to make sense to me in this scenario BUT perhaps I should do this? Would they be less likely to soil the space if this were their only space?

[Deleted User]

Yes, when I took away some of the extra boxes Lint especially peed in those spots. I put large rocks there and he peed beside them. But only for a couple of days.

[jerseygirl]

You know, I’ve realized I’m just over thinking things (as usual) and procrastinating (as usual).  I think I’ve resolved just to limit the space and see what happens. Got nothing to lose really…  Part of me not doing this earlier is I think I’ll miss their company – weird…I like having them about even though frequently annoyed by some behaviours.  When did I become so dependant on them?!  

[Deleted User]

They’ve grown on you, how sweet… I miss mine at night; sometimes I go in my basement in the night for a visit with them. The only night I didn’t was the night they broke out of the condo…. but that’s a long story!

[jerseygirl]

haha. I’ve got time. Maybe they broke out to come see you instead. I slept on the sofa last night and couldn’t be bothered shutting J&R out in rabbit area…so I got lots of visits in the early hours this morning.

Grown on me….i’m reminded of that line from Jerry Maguire (detest that movie!) “you had me at ‘hello'” lol The buns, they had me at….?
I stalk them. They just come to me for food, I seek them out for pets. I sometimes lie on the floor peering into the cardboard cubby at them. On the outside looking in…

[Deleted User]

Posted By jerseygirl on 12/04/2009 05:43 PM

haha. I’ve got time. Maybe they broke out to come see you instead. I slept on the sofa last night and couldn’t be bothered shutting J&R out in rabbit area…so I got lots of visits in the early hours this morning.

Grown on me….i’m reminded of that line from Jerry Maguire (detest that movie!) “you had me at ‘hello'” lol The buns, they had me at….?
I stalk them. They just come to me for food, I seek them out for pets. I sometimes lie on the floor peering into the cardboard cubby at them. On the outside looking in…

 

Rabbits give such new perspective, don’t they?

I will be nominated “BB’s worst bunny slave” after you read this.

–well, Lint seemed to have had the thought, whilst at large, to see me… but he would have had to run a gauntlet first. You see, my basement is uncharted territiry for rabbits, hostile and full of danger. My negligence as their protector becomes evident here. My basement was supposed to be an interim home for them… it was unsafe.

I opened the door to the basement stairs on a Saturday morning. There was Lint. At the top of 22 stairs. Poops all around him. He made it all the way to the door. My heart sank into my stomach forming a knot. 1 bunny on the stairs meant 3 bunnies loose! So I prepared myself for I didn’t know what… my basement has a number of large appliances which have cables obviously plugged in. It is also filled with heavy storage bins between which a bunny could disappear for a long time. My basement has mouse traps with peanut butter in them. It just isn’t a bunny playground. My condo is escape-proof… but only as long as I clip all beaners shut on it.

So I went downstairs, Lint hippity-hopping down the poop trail. There was Mops sitting on the outside of their condo looking in! He saw me and hopped inside the condo as if to show me the neat escape route where I had left the beaner unclipped. Lint followed him flicking his heels at me as a warning: “Don’t you pick me up now!”

But where was Deirdra?

Not a sound.

I was in my pyjamas looking for Deirdra and all I could find were clues of rabbit presence here and there; a 20kg bag of white flour, ripped open poured out onto the floor with bunny prints in it… tripped mouse traps, 4 in total, poos everywhere, even in high places… a large hole eaten into a new bag of rabbit pellets…. then the wall. Insulation had been dug out and peed in.

But no Deirdra.

Not a sound.

I started to think the worst. Cables…. electrocution…. I went and checked the fridge cable, dryer, washer, water conditioner, sump pump, etc. All intact. By the sump is a thing for the water to go through, a large tower thing, and there was a bunny tail behind it. Underneath a jungle of cables suspended above her,  there was Deirdra, flopped out.

I couldn’t fit in the space she was in and so I waited. She volunteered to come out and I was happy for a moment until the worry set in that the trio may have eaten flour and insulation… I watched them all day but they were perky and in a good mood. Munching, pottying… everything.

Lint has been chewing the NIC squares hard since the adventures… wanting out!

[jerseygirl]

Petzy! I am very upset at you for…………..not having told this story sooner! lol. Whew, close call! They will find all our weaknesses, you make one mistake and they know! We’re all under the impression that there is such a thing as bunny proofing but they prove us wrong. The best inspectors of bunny proofing efforts are the bunnies of course. Glad to hear no one was hurt. Maybe some motion sensors outside the condo?

[mocha200]

my bunny mocha peed right over the edge of his litter box just two days ago when i brout him inside to play, maby i should get him a bigger litter box.

[Monkeybun]

If they pee off the side, its usually a good idea to get a bigger one, then they can smoosh their bottoms into the side like they seem to enjoy doing

[jerseygirl]

Grrr! I hate this. It feels like a punishment. Today I penned of a 2x1metre area for them. Containing 2 litter boxes (the large one with hay) and a water bowl. They spend majority of day in it and have had sometime outside. But now it’s midnight and I just want to let them out! I hate doing this. I thought as we were having a run of milder weather I could pen them up & they’d be comfortable. But it feels like the wrong approach. Like I’ve really taken away their habitat and put them in this contained space with just a few familiar things.

I think I’ll give them back the room, add more boxes as a hint (hopefully) and keep on top of Jerseys attempts to pee on the floor where I can. I had been doing this and she definatley knows what I’m on about. Last night she really tested me so I was determined to set up the pen area today. Now it’s midnight and I’m over it. I have no will power.

[Beka27]

Petzy… I am imagining your basement as an Indiana Jones movie… falling boulders, snakes, bottomless pits… and Deirdre fearlessly leading the way…

[Sarita]

You know Jersey, I understand how you feel. My rabbit Giselle, who is a total dear is also a total destructo rabbit so she is not allowed out at all from her pen. It’s my only option if I don’t want my house torn apart and she’s about 7 or 8 years old too and still busy busy busy.

I have no idea how old she was when I got her but at least a few years old and she already had these behaviors. I mean, I don’t think they are really “bad” behaviors – not intended to be bad anyway, just her way of staying busy. I don’t think she knows it punishment, it’s not really intended to be punishment, but I cannot watch her every minute of the day…there’s only so much that I could do so this is what works best for both of us.

[hooty22]

STAY THE COURSE JERSEY!! I know how you feel. I always had to confine Felony after my boyfriend would leave from his visits because Fel would poop EVERYWHERE. He’d sit in his pen staring at the wall with his back to me for days. He’d figure it out though, and then he’d be free range again.

[Elrohwen]

Aww, Jers, I’m sorry you’re still having trouble with them! I honestly can’t think of anything at the moment … It would be one thing if they just didn’t get it, but it seems clear that Jersey is doing this on purpose (didn’t Coco have a similar issue after Jackson was in the picture?). Maybe Jersey thinks you’re going to steal her man 😉

Did you end up letting them back out? What did they do?

[jerseygirl]

I let them back out that night and we all slept in the living room.  

I do have some sensible reasons for my delaying this though – truly!  It is Jersey that is the big culprit and she is drinking and peeing alot so I am attempting to look into this also.  It is starting to heat up here again too so 2 weeks (2 weeks? ahhhh!) in the bunny room is not doable.  It heats up too much there.

It would be one thing if they just didn’t get it, but it seems clear that Jersey is doing this on purpose

I guess this is where my hesitations lie.  Is the back to basics litter training the thing for her?  Especially as she’s never had this in the past – she just used a box out right.  Do rabbits inherently “get it” once being in limited space?  Would it establish boundaries?  Would it re-establish dominance – me being top bun?  You see my confusion?  Perhaps all these questions on my part of procrastinating.  As I said before, I have nothing really to lose by trying the back to basics method.  I just feel so mean.  I’m the first to give advice for others to do this but easier said than done eh?!

When a good time presents itself I may try it. I have simplified their space to contain just the basics. I will add one more box also.  Meantime, I have been trying to spend more time with Jersey, just giving positive attention.  Also, I’ve been prompting her to her box and praising her. 

Sorry for all my long posts.  I have been using the forum as a sounding board.

[BinkyBunny]

I can tell you what works for mine but I guess first you would have to get to the bottom of the what’s going on with Jersey healthwise to really determine if confining would help or not.

But I can tell you what I do. I haven’t had to do a refresher course in a long while, but before I use the confinement method, I first thoroughly clean the area that they keep wanting to return to and then I block it off to let it dry. Then I make sure I put fresh hay and some of their favorite treats in their litterboxes (they have two right next to each other). They pee mostly at night and so I hang out in the bunnyroom and do stuff more in there and watch carefully and scoot them to the box if they begin to go outside of it. Ii do this for a few days, and if this doesn’t help, then I do confine. For Jack & Rucy (RIP) the size of the largest xpen worked.) I basically do the same things I did before but with more confinement. That normally took no longer than a week for them to get it right again.

Now there are some problems I have with Jack being bossy and chasing Vivian (and Rucy in the past) out of the boxes. And so the gals would resort to peeing near the box when Jack gets in his mode of “I’m King, and even though there is enough poo boxes and food to go around, I must have YOURS”.. That normally lasts for a few days at a time before he settles down and is satisfied he’s respected enough. But it’s not everywhere, just right there in front of the box, so I just bought a black plastic corrugated mat that lays at the entrance of the boxes which is easy to clean. That way I don’t have to figure out when it may happen next – normally after a vet visit, when friends come to visit and then for some goofy reason that I can’t figure out. Maybe Viv breaks some King rule. Either way, the mat just keeps me from having to worry about it.

I also notice that if I spend time petting Jack and giving him lots of attention it SEEMS that he settles down and doesn’t try to prove himself so much. Howeve,r I have also noticed, that if I come into the bunnyroom and just hang out on my computer or whatever and don’t pet him, he can get bossy with Vivian. So it does help to figure out the triggers.

I bet you will get to the bottom of what is really going on – just takes a little time to figure it out and find out what works with your bunnies.

Keep us updated.

[jerseygirl]

Thanks BB.  You are so good at making things clear and simple!

When I came in tonight I was tired, hungry and aching. So to find a big mess in the bunny room did not go down well with me. I was so cross and frustrated!  I’m “documenting” this so if I chicken out on the confinement method in the future, I only need check back in on how I felt when I got home tonight.  I insisted on cleaning it before feeding them their greens and of course Jersey, in her impatience for food peed one more time for good measure.

The vet mentioned on Friday that her constant begging for food (and possibly drinking) could be to do with her motility issue.  We think she may have hypermotility, that is everything passes thru her faster.  It kind makes sense then that when I’m about in the kitchen or bunny room, she’ll come and expect food. As usually thats what I am doing for them. I do ignore it often, as I don’t want her to think if she begs she’ll automatically get food.  I do think much of the time the peeing on the floor is her impatience for the food / or sign she is upset with me.  Perhaps their are other mindsets though? Or even physical discomfort she has when anticipating food, the standing to beg putting pressure on her bladder?  Or excited peeing…. Those last to ”what if’s” are stretching things a bit.  I must remember the deliberate times when she’s specfically gone from one room to another to pee in a problem spot.  Perhaps she feels a loss of power and this is her way of regaining it.

[Deleted User]

Posted By jerseygirl on 12/20/2009 04:34 AM

Thanks BB.  You are so good at making things clear and simple!

I insisted on cleaning it before feeding them their greens and of course Jersey, in her impatience for food peed one more time for good measure.(…)

 I do think much of the time the peeing on the floor is her impatience for the food / or sign she is upset with me.  Perhaps their are other mindsets though?  (…) Perhaps she feels a loss of power and this is her way of regaining it.

 

I I will be surprised if the confinement method fixes this problem; my feeling here would be Jersey is an attention-peer. I only knew those in the canine species, but I understand rabbits are so smart, too.

Have you tried giving her the ‘cold shoulder’ when she pees in your presence, like ignoring her and only cleaning it up when she can’t see you do it?

 

[jerseygirl]

Petzy – that is a really good term for it. About a week ago, I went to the bedroom and she came running into the hall way. I turned around to see her and she backed into a corner & peed. This was a spot she doesn’t normally go too. I was so surprised! I do the cold shoulder bit though not as consistant with cleaning up while she’s absent. I have done that too but most times I just get straight too it. My sister commented one night “she’s got you well trained”. So true. It’s a bit like kids I guess, that do the thing Mummy often tells them not too because they think it’s a game. I do this and Mummy does this…

Well for all my complaining about her I’m feeling some guilt now because she’s not well today.

[Deleted User]

Get better, Jersey! –what is wrong with her today?
Did Jersey pee for attention before you bonded Rumball to her?

[jerseygirl]

This morning when I came out, she was sitting by the door with Rumball grooming her. She didn’t get up and come dance around for the food at all. I tried hand feed some pellets but she was not interested. Also didn’t want any treat I offered. I managed to get her to eat a couple lettuce leaves late this arvo and she’s eaten some of this evenings pellets so I think she’s coming around.

As to your other question – yes, she used to pee on the kitchen floor. I had some trouble with that a while back. It did improve but the kitchen is still one of her problem spots.

[jerseygirl]

Ok – the buns are in lockdown. Wish me luck!

I’ve shut them in the rabbit area rather then pen off a really small space. I’ll see how this goes first. There’s 5 litter boxes in there. I think Jersey may understand that big hint!!

[Deleted User]

what type of flooring?

[jerseygirl]

Vinyl, upside down.

[jerseygirl]

Update:  I shut the buns into the rabbit room last Sunday, so it’s almost a week now…And NO improvement!

It’s all Jersey – I can’t figure her out.  The weather has been mild so I took my chance to put them into retraining for a longer stint. Last time I could only do 3 days due to the heat, but that time I noticed a difference after the first night. This time – nothing.  I guess I’ll continue with it but I’m just a bit  dejected.

[Karla]

I haven’t seen this thread before now. Sorry to hear that Jersey is still being a trouble maker. As you know, I’ve had my problems as well. Someone still pees in a specific corner in the bunny room…I hardly notice it now. I’ve sort of accepted that I need to wipe it up and consider them 100 % litter trained hahaha

It used to be a lot worse and the things that worked for me was:
 

• Watch Molly like a hawk. I would feed her all her food in the litterbox, give her a treat whenever she was in the litterbox and praise her and give lots of treats when she did her business. This actually taught her to stop peeing everywhere else constantly, but it took a while.
• Confine them. I’ve done this twice and it worked wonders every time. I would confine them for approximately 3 days and all marking outside the cage would stop for a long time.
• Wash the floor constantly. Those days when I am in fact tired of the pee in the corner, I wash down the floor thoroughly once a day. When I do that it actually keeps them from peeing…for a few days at least.

It’s interesting if you think that she does it for attention. I have a cat that does this. Well, not with me, but when he is at my parents’ place and they don’t feed him quickly enough, let him out or something like that, then he sprays. If you find a solution, I’m sure my parents would like to know  You know, you can do clicker training with cats to handle this problem…so you should be able to train Jersey as well. Teach her to ask for your attention in another way. Do you wipe up the pee instantly? Maybe you should ignore it for a while and not wipe it up when she is around if that just reenforces her behaviour.

I actually did this with Molly when I first got her and she was terrible with the marking. Finally, I just thought that if she wants to have the room smell of her pee, then so be it. So I let it be like that for 3 days, and then she magically stopped. Our war of nerves had apparently ended…

 

 

[jerseygirl]

Thanks Karla. Gosh your cat sounds just like Jersey. It does seem food related when I’m in the room. She’ll follow me around waiting for me to feed her something. I try spend time out there with them without giving food so she won’t always expect it. She settle for pets then if she’s in the mood. Often though, she’ll just line up and pee if I’m ignoring her begging. Other than that, I just find the puddles when I go out there. Usually next to the litter boxes, also middle of room, sometimes near or in the food bowl. I try put that up out the way. I guess giving food or pets = attention.

I do clean it up asap. Actually, I make a point of cleaning it all before anything else. The thing with confinement is it’s tricky to clean it up without her seeing. I guess I could try leave it, spend some time in there with them (without feeding) and leave without cleaning it up. Don’t know what she’ll make of that. The floor has a slight slope so it means the puddles run right across the room… I guess they can get grotty for a short time if it means the space with be cleaner in the long run.

I have been able to prompt her to go to the box. A one point I felt like I was toileting her. I’d pop her in the box whenever she was in the room with me. Since confinement I haven’t done that. She has used it in my presence and I usually reward her. I have seen she’ll pee on the floor when peeved at me but also sometimes if Rumball is using the box. Like a dominance thing. Both can fit in there and she will also use it while he’s in there. Just sometimes she has an issue and decides to pee beside it.

So, it’s kinda hard to work out exactly what all the triggers are. Some are obvious – like today I prevented her from escaping outside, she immediately got on the phone book near my shoes and peed. The confinement doesn’t seem to be working. As I mentioned before, this area is the major problem spot, she is good about her habits around the house except the kitchen sometimes.

Like if I were to confine them elsewhere, I’m pretty certain she’d be ok with her box. I’ve considered this and doing an overhaul of the rabbit area…but likely they won’t respond to that too well either. 
 

Sorry if I’ve been repetitious – I can’t quite recall all I’ve previously written (vented) on this.  Jersey reminds me of an impulsive child with this behaviour, like she can’t quite control a reaction to something. I spent some time with my 2 year old nephew today who will push limits sometimes, testing the things he knows he shouldn’t do.  It’s hard to discipline them when they’re so darn cute!

[Karla]

So she is obviously doing it as a way of telling you to do what she wants…I really think it would help to ignore it. If you don’t react to it at all (don’t say a word, don’t wipe it up, don’t look at it), then she has no point in doing it. And then continue to give her treats whenever she is in the litter box. Make sure you feed her before she pees and just walk out the room demonstratively without saying a word, when she pees outside the box.

And if you are interested in doing clicker training, I know some of the english books on clicker training cats actually have chapters on this.

[jerseygirl]

On clicker training; I’ve never taken time to look into it thoroughly – about the methods and benefits. Maybe it’s time I did. I do use some noises and a whistle with them.

I think I can do what you have described – ignore the pee. I’m tired of mopping! Anything is worth a try. I’m on the verge of just letting them back into rest of house because she’d be out there less and therefore peeing less!

After what I wrote above about being like a child, I was thinking I am looking at things wrong – from human perspective. I mean, the reason we can “litter train” them is that we are taking advantage of their natural instinct to toilet in a designated spot. I’m thinking the other reasons for urinating (in a warren situation) would be territorial and dominance. Dominance would more be spraying so perhaps territorial marking is the key here. She pees all over the room to mark it. Like she’ll tolerate me going in there as I’m the food bearer…but “if you’re not here for that – then I need to define that this is MY space *pees*. Also toward Rumball sometimes…”yeah, you can use the box but just so you know *pees* this is MY box. 
 

Like with those dog behavioural trainers on tv (ceasar milan, victoria stilwell) it always goes back to basics with the dogs instincts and pack mentality. I need to think Bunny!

[KatnipCrzy]

Griffin was awful to littertrain- he was housed in a large dog crate and he was so messy we bought another litterbox so the whole floor of his cage was practically litter box covered- he sitll had his shelf to lounge on.  Now that he has been moved into a pen beside Schroeder- there are some marking poos but the peeing has much improved.  Unfortunately I don’t have any advice for helping Jerseys issue at all.  But I know how frustrating it can be- I think my husband did not even LIKE Griffin because his litter habits were so messy and disgusting- and that caused me to be frustrated with Griffin AND my husband.

[jerseygirl]

Now that he’s got it I hope his habits remain good Katnip, for peace and sanity!

 

And then continue to give her treats whenever she is in the litter box. Make sure you feed her before she pees and just walk out the room demonstratively without saying a word, when she pees outside the box.

Karla, are you meaning make sure I feed her (as in a meal) before she pees OR make sure I feed a treat while she’s on her box before she pees? If you mean the first one, I’m not sure I can control that.

I’ve been ranting about the pee quite a bit but it is also ALOT of poo.  She just seems to have gotten worse.  I am really chasing my tail on this. Yesterday I was thinking of letting them have space back – now I’m thinking I need to reduce it more.

[RabbitPam]

Just want to chime in to say that thinking like a bunny is an excellent way to look at it.
Since they do tend to go while eating, you may want to watch her and not let her out until you see her pee, so at least she will have emptied her bladder even if she does it again for marking. That might provide a clue as to her reasons for the pee.

Impatient with our bunnies? Us? *rolls eyes in sympathy*

[jerseygirl]

Posted By RabbitPam on 03/07/2010 05:18 PM
Since they do tend to go while eating, you may want to watch her and not let her out until you see her pee, so at least she will have emptied her bladder even if she does it again for marking. That might provide a clue as to her reasons for the pee.

Impatient with our bunnies? Us? *rolls eyes in sympathy*

Well it’s the rabbit room that’s being marked. So even though I’ve kept them in there it’s still being messed pretty bad.  Do you think I could reduce the space(pen an are off) in there then not let her out of that to eat until she uses the box?  I have started toileting her again.  I stand at the box with a pellet ready and I say “Box, box”. She gets in and trys to have it so I keep repeating “box, box”. She gets it, she’ll pee then have her pellet. Sort of positive reinforcement as well as reducing the amount of times she can pee on the floor. I can’t believe how much she can hold though.   I don’t know if this will help with pooping though as she’ll just think she has to pee each time. The poop just falls out of her. It doesn’t even appear like shiny territorial poo.  I had it so good when she was young, she just used the box right off.

 

[Deleted User]

Jersey, I missed that this is still going on. I still wonder if it isn’t because of Rumball. Maybe she does not like using the same spot as him, or maybe she is confiring her status.

[jerseygirl]

Yeah…because of him and me I think. The amount of times it’s been just me and her there and she’s backed up to pee. Many times it’s after the food is gone. If she’d just fill up on hay!
It did certainly increase after Rumball moved in – as to be expected. It just never improved. I did have issue with it prior to him coming. She would mark in the kitchen a bit. This still happens but it’s the rabbit specific area that is out of control. I’ve even replaced the flooring to no avail.

[Cassi&Charlie]

JG, Charlie also pees for attention. He’ll wait until I’m there and he’ll back his little butt up and pee while looking straight at me! Grr, drives me crazy and it’s so much worse now that he’s confined. I’m staying with my parents and they are not impressed with his litter habits and so I have to keep him in an x-pen all the time and I think he’s punishing me for it.
I’m trying to spend loads of time with them and praise him for using the litter box but he’s making me furious..and I’m a patient person!
I’m watching this thread very closely! Any solution for you is a solution for me.

[jerseygirl]

*sigh* *Sigh* *SIGH*

Jersey is really getting the better of me! Mopping up 5-6 times a night is wearing VERY thin. My shout of “NO” and herding her to the box is failing. She’ll just reposition, pee, then run off.

I was reading a little on attention seeking. 2 things were advised: Completely ignore OR squirt with spray of water. Right now I’m thinking of investing in some more spray bottles or even a water pistol and a holster.

The evenings are the worst. I think food is one of the big triggers. Waiting for food or the food is finished and she wants more. I often go to collect the salad plate to find pee puddles.

I did also see her go to use a box Rumball was in so she backed up and went on the spot, even though a double size litter box was vacant. I’ve also tried putting just a paper litter in the smaller additional box to see if she prefered it. It had an appeal for about 2 hours, then same old. I tried to Rumball proof it too, so she could have her own exclusive toilet. But he was able to get into it anyway.

I was looking back at some old posts to get an idea when this first started to get out of hand. I mentioned it when Karla was having problems with Molly back in October. I actually can’t recall if the marking from bonding stopped and then this intensified. It’s a long time for a bad habit to become entrenched. My fault there. I’m just not that hopeful that I can “fix” this…
 

I am going to try confining them again in even smaller space. Just need cooler patch of weather or to borrow an AC for their area. I really need to do it where the urinating is worse.  It the whole “back to basics” thing and I don’t really have any other methods to work other than some of the attention seeking methods – but I don’t believe it is all related to that behaviour.

@ Cassi, I’m assuming you are on the road now so don’t know if you’ll see this. I’m wondering if Charlie is doing this since you’ve been reunited, or since the car trip? Or was this an old habit of his?
 

[RabbitPam]

Forgive me if this suggestion has already been made, but I just opened directly to your most recent post.
Anyway, what about putting all the food into holders suspended next to a litter box? She can only eat while in one that way. Just to get her back into the habit?

[Deleted User]

Jersey, I know it makes the worst litter material but would you try filling her litter boxes with just hay? This usually puts a rabbit on track with using the box. I mean fresh hay and nothing underneath.

[jerseygirl]

Thanks for the ongoing suggestions guys.

RabbitPam, I can guess that if I feed their greens in the box, Jersey will finish her greens, jump out the box, look around then pee on the floor. I am currently combatting the pee after the greens habit by feeding them in the living room. She won’t pee on the carpet there. She will go out to the rabbit area after though, looking for food, nibble some hay and pee a bit.

I have a large double size box plus 2 additional boxes currently. I’ll add hay to all plus one with just hay and see how that goes.

I’m pretty certain I’m dealing with:

• Attention peeing.  Ignoring this is working I believe. She appears confused then trys to clean up the puddle by sipping it – ick. I do my best to wait til she’s gone before I clean it up. Will have to be consistent here. Also am giving her non-food related attention where possible. I think this helps too.
• Over marking. HRS mentions this in an article. Where rabbits might mark with poop, then urinate to underline their signature.  I believe she is being territorial and marking and this has just become habit now.
• Possible dislike of the box, litter or sharing the box.  Hard to know, I have seen her go use them normally with no issue. I’m using wood pellets, but have just paper litter in one to see preferences.  I would like to trial setting up a box only she can use but not sure how. Ideas welcome!!  I tried a cardboard box over litterbox with small entry holes, but Rumball managed to get in anyway!  POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT is working also. I prompt her to use her box and she gets a pellet reward. Hopefully it’d become habit, that positive experience in always using the box will override whatever other dislikes she is having. Hopefully combo of her not getting desired result from littering out of box + positive experience from using box will = happy people and happy bunnies.

[LizzyBunn]

wow. I hope that all your hard work and effort has paid off. How is it going now?

[jerseygirl]

 

Ah, well I have small improvements then bad days so….
My ‘hard work” has just been cleaning up. I must admit my inconsistancy in managing this issue has certainly not helped and enabled her. I have been having success at getting her to use the box (mostly during the evenings when the urinating is most frequent). I say “box box” while standing near it and she gets a pellet when she gets in.  A couple times I  even said “do wees” & she did on cue! lol A coincidence I think…

I’ve suspected some of her posturing to pee stance in other areas of the house, when I’m there to see it, is a game to her. Because I caution her and herd her to the box, she goes then gets treat. So sometimes I think she’s initiating it. Again, attention seeking maybe….  Or her training me!

[Karla]

So, now you have taught her to go in the box on command or at least she has learned that she gets treats from doing it. Perhaps you should take it further and instead proceed with your pee-command, and not give her a treat before she has actually peed and only then. It does however require that she is ready for it.

I think it is tricky because I would not normally tell people to ignore the peeing, but in this case, I think you should and don’t herd her to the box. Not if you think she is seeking attention. It’s like with a dog or a kid. Even bad attention feels better than being ignored, so even if you spray water on her or shout, then she gets the attention. What a Diva!

I’m thinking that since it is mostly in the evening (because you are there? or because she has had greens?) you really have the advantage to do something about it. Yes, I am actually thinking perhaps confining her…haha, I bet you are thrilled now. If she does it for the attention, and you sit by her pen every evening watching her and praise her and give her treats for using the litterbox, she must be a happy bunny. Then when you think it is time to let her out and test her, she will probably pee somewhere else only to be ignored. For an attention-seeking bunny, I am sure she will go for the litterbox next time – but you really have to be there to praise her and give her treats when she does. Otherwise it will fail.

Anything useful?

[LizzyBunn]

I hope that small improvements and her behalf eventually become big improvements. stay the course Jerseygirl! be strong with that sweet bunn.

[jerseygirl]

Lol – thanks, I need that encouragement. Staying the course is part of the problem for sure!

Karla – your suggestions are always useful and I know you have 1st hand experience with this – so thank you!
Lol @ the “pee-command”. This was just a novelty really that I’d thought I’d mention. I would “command” her as I was getting impatient sometimes for her to pee – so I was amused that a couple times I told her too, she did! Usually she does do it once she gets into the box and yes, I give treat after that.
She did and still does use the box of her own accord. Just she has times where she deliberately doesn’t. So I will keep working on that.

[Deleted User]

Jersey, I saw you mention litterbox upgrades in my bunny projects thread. It reminded me of your troubles here.

I don’t think it is possible to keep Rumball out of her litterbox as long as they live together.

I wonder if you haven’t inadvertently encouraged Jersey’s accidents because you give her attention around peeing behaviors, such as treat for going in the box. I would ignore her toileting events and I would eliminate the grated litterboxes. I would also try something softer than woodstove pellets. I think it could help to create a marked difference in feel between her toilet spot and anywhere else, therefore I woud look for a soft litter material, and no more grates. This is just a stab in the dark.

Is she free-range again?

I had experience problems with Neigey after bonding him, he would just poop as he hopped along and had many peeing accidents.

 

[jerseygirl]

Thanks Petzy.  Is that what worked for Neigey? Softer litter material?  Jers is exactly like this, pooping as she moves, peeing “accidents”.

I’ve tried just paper based litter minus the grate and though both seemed to like getting in it, the novelty wore off after a while.   Won’t hurt to keep trying.

I don’t think it is possible to keep Rumball out of her litterbox as long as they live together.

Yes. I guess it was a theory of a trigger I wanted to test out.  She does not seem territorial toward him in any way – even when there’s a plate of food.

I wonder if you haven’t inadvertently encouraged Jersey’s accidents because you give her attention around peeing behaviors

I have wondered this too.  She’ll even do a small pee to get a treat, then later I’ll find she’s peed next to the box like she’s saved some in her bladder for later.  Her ammunition.

I’m planning to take them to my parents and stay for a few days. This will give me a chance to observe her habits out of her environment.

[Deleted User]

Yes, softer litter did the trick for Neigey. He was part of the reason why I took the cardboard litter strips so seriously, because he approved of it so noticeably.
I had been using a grated litter setup and one regular one, but my litter material was inconsistent; sometimes I used Aspen shavings, sometimes newsprint shreds or WSP. I was also battling poowars (times 4!) for a while and changed to offering no more hay anywhere at all but in the litter cages, and this has improved everybunny’s habits in my quartet tremendously. Granted, their litter cages smell slightly like barn but I think this is part of the reason for the success. — Do you use vinegar at the bottom of your grated box? This could offend a rabbit.

It is amazing that you have actuallly trained Jersey to pee for a treat. This makes peeing a very conscious action for her.

My point with these ramblings is that I still think switching things up will eventually find you the solution to stop Jersey’s littering.

[Author]

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