Lionheads Ariel & Miranda BONDED!

[boogercj]

 

First up, Merry Christmas everyone! We’re having a super time off work for a couple of weeks and. we even took Ariel and Miranda on a very successful road trip (3 hours in England constitutes a road trip!) to Devon to see the folks.

Anyway, it’s been 4 weeks since they were both spayed; their tummies have healed completely and there’s even patches of fur growing back! We’ve decided today to start the bonding process. First up, pics of the protagonists :

 

For those of you that don’t know, they are 6-7 month old sisters that we adopted in November and they were fine with each other’s company for about a week until one big scrap whioch forced us to separate them. They are currently living in “X-Pens” next door to each other.

Today we decided to put them in the bath together with a towel (we now know the towel is counter-productive), armed and rady with a apray bottle. They immediately went over to check each other out but within about 30 seconds there was a bit of nipping and we had to separate them again. We feel bad that we didn’t  end the session on a gIood note, and have done more research to ensure we can see the signs of aggression before it happens (ears back, tail up).We’ve actually swapped them over in their pens (as per advice from the House Rabbit Network) and they both seem very happy , so we are going to try them in the our small kitchen (which neither bun has set foot in before) with our loud extrractor fan on and a pile of greens.  They don’t seem to like cooking, and we’re hoping the sound of the extractor should unsettle them enough so they don’t fight. That’s the theory anyway!

We’ll do thais and post up how we get on.

[RabbitPam]

They are so adorable looking – I was impressed at how they seem to “match” but being sisters that explains it.
You sound like you are doing your bonding by the book, so let’s hope things go well. The cage swapping is good. Maybe you can get two stunt doubles to put their smells on so they can continue to get used to each other again and get over the fighting instinct.

Good luck, and keep us posted! (Got a video camera?)

[boogercj]

2nd session. Progress

Today we had them both in the kitchen with a couple of towels and a pile of savoy cabbage in the middle. We had the extractor fan on max and the washing machine going, in order to provide some un-nerving sounds.
We tried to put them down within about 2 ft of each other, but Ariel (who is natuarlly a little more wary) climbed straight back onto me for cuddles! Seems this might be good for our relationship anyway!

After Ariel had stopped being such a scaredy-bun, both of them wandered around for about 10 minutes before taking a piece of cabbage from our hands. They pretty much ignored each other, facing opposite ways until after the 15 minute mark they both had a quick groom before nosing cautiously towards each other. We were all ready with a colander, sieve and a spray gun, but to our surprise and utter delight, they said a polite “hello” with their noses. Ears facing forward, tales down. We decided to call that our “positive end” and put them back in their quarters, with a raisin each for being so good!

It’s a small step, but we’ve now had a 15 minute session without a sign of aggression. Happy days.
 

[Monkeybun]

*is jealous*

Want to trade? lol

[boogercj]

haha! Yours seem to be doing fine! Better than mine anyway, which brings me onto Session 3:

First off we skipped a couple of days due to New Year’s Eve celebrations, and subsequent hangover…bad humans!

Put them in the kitchen again for 15 mins. They seemed less scared this time even though we had the washing machine and the extractor going. I might steal Monkeybun’s idea and get the dust buster out nexxt time. Anyway, I think we’ve worked out who the perpetrator is. Miranda was quite content to just sit there minding her own business, even with Ariel sitting right next to her.

It’s Ariel who has the attitude. We had to stop her from attacking about 3 times (luckily it’s pretty easy to tell when she’s about to as she thumps first – silly girl!). Anyway we managed to end the session stroking both of them whilst they were next to each other (Miranda sitting slightly back from Ariel) for about 5 minutes. We’re going to try a car-ride tomorrow followed by an extended session, and maybe one in the evening.

One question I have is, if we were to extend the sessions to say 45 mins a day, how do we ensure we’re not pushing our luck and making the buns relationship even more strained? Do we just have to keep on stopping fights before they happen and leave the rest up to the buns?

[boogercj]

Sessions 4 & 5. Progress then a setback

Session 4 we decided to forgo the car-ride due to sub-zero temperatures outside and the fact that we live in a 4th floor apartment. A cunning plan was needed. We put the bunnies in a shallow laundry basket lined with a fresh towel in the kitchen and I vaccumed around them, making sure I caught the edge of the laundry basket a few times to stir things up a bit.

I tell ya what…it worked a treat! They were so good; huddling in together, no nipping or anything. Just burying their noses into each other’s fur for comfort. Eventually we did away with the basket and kept the vaccum running and they still wanted to comfort each other. Ariel looked like she was going to nip a couple of times, but she was actually pushing ner nose underneath Miranda (which Miranda didn’t particularly like). This makes me think Ariel thinks she’s the boss.

Session 5 was last night. Oh dear, not good. We decided to try just a “normal” session in the kitchen with a pile of greens. We thought it was going really well after a couple of cursory nose-touches but then both of them thumped at each other. Ariel just went for it and we had to separate them. Miranda looked really sad as well and I’m not surprised given her sister keeps starting on her and I keep having to shout “NO” (I can shout quite loud, and I think they new I meant business!).

After we separated them a couple of times more Ariel just seemed to be in full on “I hate you mode” and we didnt see any other choice but to end the session before either of them got hurt . I understand you should always try and end on a positive, but all involved were getting more stressed by the situation. The funny thing is we sent them to their play areas (the lounge for Miranda and the Hallway for Ariel) and they bother were perfectly happy, running around and binkying; in fact I had Ariel on my lap for a good 20 mins for strokes, which is unprecedented!

I guess we should do a stress and forced snuggling session again tonight. They’re such sweet little rabbits when they’re on their own; why can’t they just get along?!

 

[MarkBun]

You’re on the right track. Keep up with the stress bonding first. I found when I couldn’t go outside for the car ride, I’d just put them both in the same animal carrier and shake it for a while. Found I could watch TV with my feet propped up on it and rocking it back and forth to keep them scared.

[boogercj]

Thanks Mark; we’ve had a 1 week hiatus due to both of us coming down with terrible colds, but we’re back on it now and we’re going all out daily stress-bonding for a while now.

Tonight we tried another 15 minute stress session in a box in the kitchen (neutral territory), bothering the rabbits with our vaccum cleaner. Suffice to say they hated it and this was the result:

 but also

This definitely has the desired effect, so we’ll keep up with this for a few more sessions methinks.

 

 

 

[MirBear]

awwe.. your bunny has the same name and attitude as me my name is Miranda too

[boogercj]

Haha! Do you love carrots, nose wiggling and foot-flick people when they annoy you?!

Same again tonight; box, bunnies, vaccum. Same result, the bunnies snuggled in together for the entire 15 minutes with Miranda (the bunny ) taking time to groom herself as well.  After we put them back in their cages they were quite interested in each other, saying hello through the bars of their pens. I Imagine the conversation went:

“Thanks, you totally had my back when the nasty hoover was circling”

“Ah, no worries. I still hate you though”

How do we tell when it’s time to move to the next stage? Should we carry on like this for a week and then try an all day x-pen session?

[MirBear]

whitch bunny am i? the white and gray one or the black one??

[RachelB]

Maybe take a few steps before adding them to the xpen….
A larger box with vacuum.
Vacuum, stop, vacuum, stop and see how they behave.
You could also try giving food for them to share, increase bonding times, give them a toy to share (my buns loved chewing on fruit balsa cubes from BB).

Have they groomed one another yet? Some ideas that worked for my two are: 1)forced snuggles head to head and side by side 2)banana on eachothers heads 3)wet foreheads

Best of luck…. keep working at it…. they’re super cute together!

[boogercj]

MirBear, Miranda is the gray and white “harlequin” one.

They haven’t groomed each other yet, but it’s very early days. Cheers for the tips. We’ll keep up with the vacuum as it seems to be doing the trick and try bigger containers. I think we’ll try this, along with the “on/off” vacuum trick and then try forced snuggling to round out the week. We’ve got the weekend free so I think we might be able to do an extended session on one of the days to see if we can wear them down a bit.

You’re right though, they are very cute! Just had play time and Miranda has taken to not only flopping, but actually doing a complete roll! I need to get it on camera.

[MirBear]

i love rolling over also you could try skibunny’s new trick – trancing the bunnies in turn and letting one sniff the other….

[MooBunnay]

It sounds like you are off to a great start! I agree with taking little steps going forward. Seeing how they do together without the vacuum going is a good idea. They are so cute – they are going to make an adorable pair when they get back together again

[boogercj]

Thanks, we’ve got everything crossed that they will become the adorable pair we want them to be!!

Tonight was a great session. We did the same vacuum cleaner, box method but actually switched off the vaccum cleaner after 5 minutes. For the remaining 10 minutes they pretty much huddled together. Miranda moved and thumped a couple of times. They both got a couple of raisins for being so good and were returned to their pens where they both went to sulk in their boxes (where the sleep). Hopefully they were reflecting on how their sister is a good pal and they’d like to see more of them!

Tomorrow I think we will try it with the vaccum cleaner on for 1 minute and off for the rest of the 15 minutes to see how they get on. if that goes well, we’re going try a half day session on the weekend.

We’ll need tips though if anyone has any!! Like, if they nip, do you just break them up and carry on? What do you do if you’re tempted to end it all because the bunnies just arent getting on? Carry on anyway?

[jerseygirl]

Like, if they nip, do you just break them up and carry on? What do you do if you’re tempted to end it all because the bunnies just arent getting on? Carry on anyway?

Yes, carry on! haha. They need to work thru this and gain trust in one another. So when there’s nipping, either use a vocal command, shake the box, squirt with water, whatever thing you’re doing to discourage it, then try settle them and continue. I sometimes would briefly push the head down of the nipper to show it was not on, then pet both of them simultaneously. When they start circling one another and you can’t distract them, it can spiral out of control and turn into a real fight so this is when you really need to separate them.

It can get boring for you, but if they are just sitting there after vacuum stressing and not doing much, this is actually positive – so try stretch out session times. If they are in close proximity and not fighting, this is good and they’re trusting one another.

[boogercj]

Thanks jerseygirl, I think we’re going to try it tomorrow (Sunday) for a good 6 hour session, as I feel we’ve worn them down a bit with the week of stress bonding.

Last night again, we did the vaccuum cleaner thing, but only left it on for 1 minute. They were soooo good that we extended their session by an extra 5 minutes! Miranda would bury her head in Ariel’s bottom and thump loudly a couple of times. We don’t really know what that means but twice it was accompanied by not so much a nip, but a kind of half-hearted attempt at a nip. Kind of more of a shove, if that makes sense. No fur was exchanged. A quick “NO” put pay to that straight away, and suprisingly there was no follow up by either bunny which makes me think they’re gradually “cracking”. We did jerseygirl’s trick of petting them as soon as we’d stopped Miranda from not-really-nipping and it worked reaqlly well. Miranda was even relaxed enough to eat some celery we put in the box for them. Ariel was pretty scraed through the whole thing, but it used to be her that did all the nipping so it’ll be interesting to see what she’s like when there’s no stressor involved.

Tonight (Saturday) we’re going to do the same, 1 minute with the vaccuum but then try 25 minutes in the bonding box together. On Sunday we’re going to set up a pen in our bedroom, where neither of them have been before, with water, hay, some veggies and a litter tray and tough it out for a 6 hour wear-them-down session :S

[boogercj]

It’s midday on Sunday now. We’ve had a brunch, washed down with a couple of mugs of tea and we’re setting up for an afternoon bunny bonding vigil!

 

We’re setting up an X-pen with a tray of hay, water bowl, litter tray and a box so one of them can chill out if they need to. The vacuum cleaner is on standby. We’re gonna give it a 1 min blast at the start and then use it to stop them if they get nippy. Pics to follow

[boogercj]

Clicky!

We did it! Five hours straight bunny bonding! See the vid in the link above for the condensed version

 On the whole, it was really positive. There were a couple of scraps, which you can see on the vid, but nothing more serious than that. Mostly they were just running round, ignoring each other and chilling out. There were a few tentative greetings where they just sniffed each other and went their separate ways.

After the first fight we used the stress bonding box with the vaccuum cleaner on for 5 mins followed by 15 minutes of forced snuggling. This is because Ariel got really riled up so we let them calm down a bit and stuck them in there. Totally worked as well! They were much better after that.

Ths video ends with them eating together for 25 minutes after about an hour with no nipping at all. I thought that was superb. “Good bunnies!”

We’re going to keep this up all week, with at least an hour an night, followed by another big session on the weekend. I just want to say thank you to all of you on the forum, as without your advice and experience we woudln’t have a clue! If this works it’ll be down to you guys

[MirBear]

WOOT WOOT!!! GOOD JOB!!!

[boogercj]

Hehe! Thanks

However, it seems we got a litlle complacent as our hour session tonight wasn’t quite as fruitful. We put them in a section of our bedroom again, this time without the X-pen and let them run around. Things were OK for about 2 minutes before a scuffle broke out (I was busy plugging the vaccum cleaner in “just in case”) and we had to send them to opposite ends of the space. Anita (my GF) got some nice flesh wounds as a souvenir . We stuck them in the box for some vaccum cleaner stress bonding for a few minutes, which was followed by some lovely snuggling together. Once we’d got them back out into the play area, they probably had 3 more attempted nips, instigated by both bunnies.

The only way I can describe what happens most of the time is this:

*Sidle up, ears forward. Sniff. Back off. Sidle up again. Sniff. Back off. Ears back. Lunge.*

It happens like this almost every time (see the vid on my previous post). Is this “classic” bunny scrapping? It’s so hard to tell if they’re going to nip in these instances, as I’d say 50% of the time they sidle foward, sniff and then one of them hops away .

We feel a bit “lost” again; we don’t really know what’s the best way to continue. Same thing? 1 hour a night of playtime together? Should we try a smaller area so they are forced into each other’s space? Or should we still be stress bonding?

[jerseygirl]

Grrr…I had such trouble loading vids lately. I want to see!!
I have to rely on your verbal report. It sounds like normal progression. I saw a slight setback too when I moved into new bonding space. Maybe try short stress technique then pop them into the xpen. You might not even have to use the vac, even just putting them in the box then walking around with it for a bit before going to the pen may be enough. One thing that was suggested to me was to peg sheets around the pen to create a sense of smaller space. I found there was less distraction by what was outside the pen.

The ears flattening is an aggressive stance. Do you interject with a vocal command, or some other method, to which they respond? I’m thinking perhaps do this when you see that aggression arising. The curiosity is good though. In the pen, try just petting them both . With petting them side by side, you can swap hands between them, transferring each others scent. Also, you may want to give them some food to share – another positive and social experience.  They may not interact independantly but if they’re in the pen just doing normal bunny things (like grooming themselves) this is ok. To me that means they’re not totally on guard and feel comfortable enough to do normal activities.

[boogercj]

Thanks jerseygirl – I’ve just taken some time to read through your bonding thread(s) and it seems we’re having quite a similar experience to you. I think I know what you mean about creating a smaller space – I was toying with this idea yesterday in fact so we might move them to the bathroom or section a smaller area off in our bedroom. So, the petting is also to do with transferring scent, as well as comforting? I’m sure I must have read that somewhere but I’ve forgotten! So it seems like the way forward is:

Smaller space
Start with forced snuggling/box carrying
Carry on with the petting, makign sure we trasfer scents
Give plenty of greens to share

On the ears back thing – I have to say we’ve probably been able to stop them in their tracks about a third of the time. It’s just getting it into our heads that ears back = agresssive and acting on it straight away that we need to be better at. Sometimes they’re just too fast and they lull us into a false sense of security as when they first greet their ears are forward, then they step back. They then step forward and the ears go down and they get to it within what seems like a split second.

[boogercj]

It worked! Smaller space, 15 minutes of forced snuggling in the box after walking around with it was enough to make them really snuggly, with Miranda even flopping out right next to Ariel!

For the next 30 minutes we had them out of the box. There was one minor incident we couldnt diffuse with the spray gun but other than that we managed to stop another escalating before it even happened (ears back=wet head!). They said hello nicely a few times and ended up eating near each other so after they’d finished eating we ended the session, much happier than yesterday  Good bunnies!

 

 

 

 

[boogercj]

This is really weird, but we seem to be alternating every day between good progress and not so good.

Last night they were good as gold for 20 minutes, including 10 minutes of forced snuggling in which Miranda flopped out again. They ate together again and I pre-emptively squirted once Ariel for having her ears back during a greeting. Poor baby – she always gets it!!

Then, 5 minutes before twe were going to wrap up they did their usual “nose touch, back off, ears back” and I managed to get a good squirt of water in but forgot the audio cue. They went at it for a second before we separated them. After they’d calmed down a bit and had some petting they both ate a bit more greens and we ended the session 10 minutes after the scuffle with both buns relaxed.

I think we’ve noticed something as well. Because it’s generally Ariel that has her ears back when they greet and she’s been squirted quite a few times now, she’s learning to be nice most of the time. Miranda on the other hand seems to be trying her luck a bit now  and seems to be her that starts an actual scuffle.

Seems like this process is very much two steps forward, one back… Which is good I guess!

 

[boogercj]

Today we reached a major milestone – they did 20 minutes without incident!

This time we didnt do any stress bonding or forced snuggles and just plopped them down in their bonding area in our bedroom. They groomed themselves a lot! They said hello about 5 times, and each time Miranda had her ears forward and looked very relaxed. I’ve noticed it’s nearly always Miranda that makes goes up to Ariel. Ariel had her ears back a couple of times, but we managed to avoid any kind of nippiness by putting our hands on both their heads and stroking them until one backed away. This seemed to work really well as the bunnies sat there right in each others faces without feeling the need to get nippy.

I still think we’ve got a long way to go, but we’re totally stoked today!

[jerseygirl]

Perhaps Ariel is a bit fearful? Are you noticing who is the more dominant of the pair? It’s interesting what you’ve said about Ariels nipping & consequently wet head. I wonder if there’s a subtle snub or move by Miranda that she retaliates to? Is the water spray making her (Ariel) more agitated? If so, try replace it with a vocal warning. But if it’s working, she backs of and goes about normal business, she’s probably not getting too stressed by it.

Does she allow you to pet her head easily? I’m wondering if you can head of aggression in her with the vocal warning then after a moment, pet her to calm her some. Even pet them both. Just thinking this if her aggression is fear based.

 

Edit: I replied before reading all your last post!  Looks like your sussed them out!  Good to see petting them helps calm things down.  Having a pleasant massage whilst being close to one another should really help build trust.  In time, they will need to negotiate approaching each other independantly without incident, but for now what you’re doing will really help I believe.

When you find they are sitting close and grooming themselves or just napping, you could probably start encourage them to groom one another.  I’m not sure if there should always be grooming – did they do this before?  Some pairs may just cohabit without grooming one another.  (btw, haha on reading my bonding thread(s) – what a mess!  There was good advice given by others though, so I hope you find that useful.)

[boogercj]

@ jerseygirl: We’re not entirely sure which is the dominant one yet. They’ve both got such different personalities but neither one has shown any signs of dominance over the other. We may have missed something though I guess. And, no – they didnt really groom each other before. Must have a read through your thread again though.

The last 2 sessions have both been 20 minutes long. Today they went for each other as soon as we got into the bonding area. Bad start;  Miranda got a good face-soaking,daddy got frustrated and stressed out and after mummy told him to calm down he gave the two a pep-talk. I think the face-soaking worked on Miranda as she was very good for the rest of the session. They ate loads of hay about 10 inches apart without a problem. We had to use the petting method to calm them down a couple of times but other than that they kept avoiding each other, grooming and eating. I guess it started badly but got better so a win I think.

Haha! I’m writing this on my laptop in our hallway and I have Miranda out here with me. She’s just done a lap of the hallway and come up to say hello:

 

[MirBear]

have you tryed the hipnotizing method? flip one on its back and let the other come up and say hello then reverse

[boogercj]

Hello! Bunny mummy here tonight as Chris is away for work for a few days!

Tonight a bit of a step backwards! We usually have seperate playtime either before or after bonding, but as its just me tonight I thought i’d be clever and combine the two! I’m very comfortable with bunnies having been around them since I was very young even though i’d never done the bonding thing before on my own was fairly confident I could handle it.

It all started fine, I put them in the box we use and walked around with them for a few mins just to stress them a little first and they huddled together. I sectioned off an area in our bedroom a bit larger than normal and let them free. Miranda tried to have a nip at Ariels bum within the first few minutes but it was quickly broken up and for 45 minutes all was ok. A few thumps and funny looks but that was about it. Ariel even binkied a few times!

I really don’t know what happened next one minute they were about a metre apart and the next they were lunging at each other! Luckily I got in the way pretty quickly and I bore the brunt of it. Ariel got my hand quite badly (its only just stopped bleeding). I picked Ariel up to seperate the two and calm the situation (Ariels usually the easier one to pick up and responds better to it than Miranda, who just seems to get more wound up if shes picked up), tried to put them back together after a few minutes to try to end on a positive note but they weren’t having any of it so it was separation straight away again. I think Miranda may have been quite upset by it as she did a wee straight over the side of the litter tray almost straight away after the fight and i’ve never seen her do that before, they are pretty much perfectly litter trained. They looked pretty upset when I put them back in their pens too.

I feel quite disappointed with myself tonight and hope I haven’t rushed them too much and caused a bigger set back! I really can’t tell which bunny is dominant and causing the problem. It used to be Ariel who always started first but it seems to be 50/50 now. Ariel is definately more skittish. I don’t think i ever saw them groom each other before so i’m not sure even if we get them to a stage where they can live together if they’ll ever be that close.

They are both back in their pens now, have had plenty of strokes and some carrot and are looking a lot happier! Ariels sat in her favorite spot on her basket and Mirandas flopped out!

[jerseygirl]

I feel quite disappointed with myself tonight and hope I haven’t rushed them too much and caused a bigger set back!

I wouldn’t worry too much on that. You intervened before a really bad fight could happen. Hard to say if it would have escalated to that as sometime they scuffle then settle themselves. I would just keep up the regularity of the sessions. From my own experience, this happened a bit to me, where I thought things were regressing a bit, but you persist and you may notice the intensity of any aggression is slowly waning.

Cheer up!

[boogercj]

boogercj back again! Anita’s hands healing nicely and it seems the buns have mellowed significantly. Maybe that incident made them take stock?

We’ve been carrying on with (almost) daily bonding and last week we went back to a bit of stress bonding followed by forced snuggles in the box.

Tonight we did that for 10 minutes and then let them out in our small bathroom for a further 10 minutes. To our utter surprise there was no lunging, nipping or anything. A couple of really nice hellos, which we kind of interviened into and stroked them both mid-greeting. This has been by far the best session yet, and there’s something else as well…

A week ago we bough them both a “stunt double” in the form of a teddy-bear each. We swapped them every other day to transfer scents and on the first day they both kind of chewed at the bears, threw them around the place etc. Last night we caught Ariel actually grooming her bear! She did it for about 2 minutes and then shoved her head underneath the bear’s leg!

Could this possibly mean anything? Would it have anything to do with the success of tonight’s bonding session?

[boogercj]

Last night we had a great session with no nipping again!

Tonight Ariel did something I’ve never seen before in a bonding session. She took up residence in the box that was on it’s side after 2 minutes of forced snuggling. She then started to lick the box in a few places (definitely licking as it was all wet afterwards!) before flopping out!

After a while Miranda went over, Ariel sat up and Miranda sniffed her and pushed her head into Ariel’s tummy for a few moments before a really cheeky “nip”. Nothing became of it, and they parted before we even had to intervene. Could it be Miranda wants Ariel to groom her and got annoyed when she didn’t, so gave her a “hint”?

Is it likely Ariel’s licking was directed towards us, rather than Miranda?

[jerseygirl]

Could it be Miranda wants Ariel to groom her and got annoyed when she didn’t, so gave her a “hint”?

Certainly seems that way. Now might be the time to encourage some grooming and see if they take to it. After they’ve spent some time together in a session, pop something tempting on their foreheads (banana, raisin goo, apple juice etc).

When sessions are going well, try increasing the length of time they are spending together. All sounds as if things are progressing nicely. Do you swap them between their pens at all?

[boogercj]

Hurray! Result, tonight Ariel groomed Miranda for the first time without any need for sticky treat heads! Whats more she did it on and off for about 10 minutes!

We have been doing almost daily bonding sessions since our last thread, so its been going on for a while but have decided to really go for it this week and have also resumed the swapping of pens method. Over the last few weeks the nipping has subsided and has become slower and more predictable, rather than nipping they have been sort of nudging. Miranda was doing a lot of this today and Ariel just turned around and started grooming her!

Should we keep up what we’ve been doing so far or would it be a good idea to try a long session? We don’t want to push them too far too fast but bonding these two has obviously taken a while and we’re itching to get them back together!

[Deleted User]

Posted By boogercj on 04/15/2010 02:12 PM
 (…) Over the last few weeks the nipping has subsided and has become slower and more predictable, rather than nipping they have been sort of nudging. Miranda was doing a lot of this today and Ariel just turned around and started grooming her!

Should we keep up what we’ve been doing so far or would it be a good idea to try a long session?(…)

 

Yes, try longer and longer. Predictability of actions is a very promising sign, because not only can you predict these nips/nudges, but also the other rabbit.

[boogercj]

Thanks Petzy. We did a longer session tonight in the same box and guess what? Miranda was demanding grooming and grooming is what she got. It seems like our earlier suspicions have been confirmed, in that the overtly aggressive nipping has given way to a kind of “give me what I want now” nip/nudge combo.  It’s taken a lot of trust on our part to allow them to do this, as it’s been hard not to interviene when they edge towards each other and it looks like things could go either way.

Anyway, it’s the same thing I get when I’m sitting on the floor and happen to get in Miranda’s way. She gives me a nudge and then a nip to tell me to get out of her way, and it’s exactly the same. Funny thing is Ariel acqiecsed and groomed Miranda for a good 10 minutes. She also nudged her head under Miranda’s, clearly asking her to repay the favour but to no avail. It seems Miranda has somehow managed to assert her dominance and is enjoying Lording (well, Ladying really)  it up. She gave Ariel a token lick on the nose, but that’s it! So rude! I guess that’s bunnies though, and it warms our hearts that they may have finally sorted out some kind of agreement and hierarchy.

So, we’ve had 2 sessions in the box full of hay now where there’s been no signs off aggression, just assertion of dominance and grooming. We’ve definitely turned a corner and it looks like we may be able to move them in together soon

So, what’s made them suddenly decide they want to be friends? Well, in the last 2 weeks we have:

Taken them for a trip to Devon for Easter weekend, where they spent 3 hours each way in a box together, in the car.

Moved bonding sessions from the bathroom floor, into a storage box filled with hay.

Swapped pens every other night (only for the last week).

Been much more consistent, doing bonding most nights, with the occasional break.

I guess this might be useful information to anyone in the process of bonding 2 bunnies. We were definitely at the stage where we were wondering if they were ever going to be friends and it just seemed liek we were wasting our time. But I think perseverence and using things we’d learned from the excellent people on this forum have paid off and we’re well on the way to having bunnies that will live and thrive together.

Sorry if reading this has been a mission, but I’ve had a couple glasses of wine and it’s been a week of triumphs (Don;t worry, I won’t go into all of it!) , and it’s great to be able to share postitive experiences

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Elrohwen]

I was so happy reading your recent posts! I imagine you are absolutely thrilled to have such a breakthrough after they were clearly going at it. Good luck moving them to bigger spaces and longer sessions!

[jerseygirl]

Thanks for the update on what you’ve been doing. It will be useful for those feeling dejected in their own bunny bonding process. Persistance and keeping up the sessions, even when it seems nothing will change, makes the difference. Well, at’s what I believe and what you have experienced too Great to hear you’re moving closer to the permanent bond. Time & time again I read how things seem static and then suddenly – it’s done. The rabbits just seem to sort things out.

[boogercj]

Ok so we tried them in the hallway, big mistake! As soon as we put them down they decided to totally ninja each other! We think the prob is the hallway is semi neutral as both buns go there seperately for playtime and may be still willing to fight over it territorially?! We put them back in their bonding box and they were parfect Miranda even groomed Ariel for a bit! looks like we’re still going to have to take it slow. They are fine in a cofined neutral space but how do we get rid of this territoriallity?

Also, I don’t think they’ve quite sorted out who’s boss yet. Ariel is definitely more inclined to groom Miranda, but they often have these moments where they are both demanding grooming at the same time. Ariel will usually acquiesce, but I think it might be a litlle begrudgingly, and she always wants to be groomed back in return, usually to no avail.

[Deleted User]

You are bonding two females so a hightened territoriality is just part of it. Don’t use any space that is not completely new. A shared exercise area is not at all neutral, not even semi. Each of your rabbits thinks that area is hers. Do you have anywhere in your place that the rabbits have not been?

[boogercj]

I see, so really not a good idea to use the exercise space until they are fully bonded then?

Niether of them have been into the spare room and we’ve used the bedroom just for bonding before. Might try a long session in the spare room this weekend, in between having barbecues and soaking up the sun .

[jerseygirl]

barbecues and soaking up the sun .

Lol. Oh you Brits are funny. I just saw my British rellies recently here in Australia and they were so disappointed in not having warmer weather. It was about 25C with a few days of rain! My uncle made a comment on how us Aussie were never happy with the rain we got.

[boogercj]

Hehe! We live in Portsmouth, on the south coast and as the temperature goes above double figures and the sun comes out, everyone goes nuts!  We’ve had 2 barbecues already this year! To be fair, it’s been an especially long, cold winter for us so I think everyone’s just stoked that it’s getting nice and “warm” again

[boogercj]

Update.

We’ve been using the “bonding box” now for what seems like 3 weeks with only a couple of days off. Things have reached a really interesting stage.

As soon as they got in the box, Ariel started grooming Miranda for a couple of minutes. Miranda has become really demanding and pretty much wants to be groomed all the time. We did a 45 minute session today and Miranda didn’t groom herself, eat hay or anything. She seemed completely focussed on being groomed! A couple of times she decided she’d give Ariel a token lick for about  15 seconds but only after being really pushed by Ariel. I know that Miranda is gaining the upper hand as top bunny, but Ariel just isn’t quite ready to relinquish all the power it seems .

Miranda also tried to hump Ariel’s face about 3 times as well. All 3 times we stopped her and only once did Ariel try to chase her away (it’s a small box so it’s not really chasing, but you know what I mean!). So, I gather we have to let the humping continue, as long as it’s not in the face, and as long as Ariel doesn’t get upset and start nipping. Having had a good read of Elrohwen’s thread it seems we should maybe let it go on for 20 seconds or so and then calm each bunny down by stroking.

As you may be able to tell, we’re a little reluctant to move on from the box, as we’ve had the most success with it, but we’re going to move onto the bathtub I think. A small step, but it will give them about 5 times more space and should give Ariel a bit more breathing room away from her demanding sis! . It’s been about 4 months now but I feel we’re finally getting there, slowly but surely.

Cheers!

[Deleted User]

I think you are going about this the right way, not rushing anything and transitioning them very carefully and gradually. Even if it takes you six months. –What’s six months in the life of a rabbit who can live 10 years?

[boogercj]

Hey folks, been a while but we finally managed to get a video of box-bonding! Enjoy

 

[jerseygirl]

Oh Miranda is a stubbon Miss isn’t she?!!

How long do they stay in this sort of set up before fighting (if any) starts. I’m wondering if you can try a small neutral pen/cage and if all goes well, keep them in it for cementing phase. Or is it too early for this?

[boogercj]

She sure is! She’s actually getting a bit better though. Tonight she must have groomed Ariel for a good minute or so, which is a record!

They don’t fight, nip, chase or anything in the box; shame it’s not actually big enough for them to live in or all our problems would be solved!

Anita’s got a week off now, which is great, so she’s going to set up a neutral space and do whole day sessions Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. She’ll do that and probably have the bonding box on standby in case they are naughty and chase too much. Fingers crossed, if it goes well after 2 or 3 daytime sessions, we’ll do an overnighter and see what happens…I guess you could almost call this the cementing phase, albeit a slightly pared back version. We don’t want to push our luck too far with these two, they’re stubborn little wossnames!

One question, is it perfectly acceptible to cement in a neutral space? Then deep clean the area where they both normally live (their pens are next to each other and we swap them every other night) and move them into that area?

[jerseygirl]

One question, is it perfectly acceptible to cement in a neutral space? Then deep clean the area where they both normally live (their pens are next to each other and we swap them every other night) and move them into that area?

Yes. In fact, I think this would be the ideal scenario. I seem to remember Petzy saying this was important so hopefully she or others will check in and confirm. So when you set up the new neutral area for the 3 days, keep in mind it may become the cementing pen. So you’ll want it somewhere you can keep an ear out for them. I don’t know if this would help or not, but try covering some sides of the pen so it feels a little like the bonding box that they do well in. Just a thought.

Wossnames? ?? lol

[Deleted User]

I agree, with females especially I would make the extra effort and deep-clean (with vinegar) the old habitat before placing the buns in it after their cementing is complete. I like Jersey’s idea to cover the sides to change the atmosphere of the pen.
How are the two ‘wossnames’ getting on?

[boogercj]

Thanks for the responses! I have set up an x-pen in our bedroom with a clean litter box, bowl of water and pile of hay just on the floor. There are walls on 2 sides of the pen, a chest of drawers taking up about half of the 3rd side and there is a small gap between the bed and the 4th side so it is quite enclosed and I can still easily see whats going on inside and from sitting in there with the buns for the first hour or so definately feels quite enclosed.

I wasn’t able to do a whole day yesterday as I had to go out but the buns have been in the pen since about 10 this morning so a good 5 hours so far. They have done really well, they have chased once where I had to briefly put them back in their bonding box to settle them as i just couldn’t break it up but no fur was flying and they have been pretty much perfectly behaved since. They are still doing a fair bit of the head pushing that you can see in the vid above but instead of getting angry if one bun doesn’t give in they just seem to run away.

They do look a little bored! Its mid afternoon here and I know they are generally quiet now anyway but usually they have so many toys and things to do, also they like to nap in their boxes which I have left out of the pen so that they don’t get teritorial. Is this the right thing to do limiting what they have for the time being?

If they continue like this I would like to try leaving them in the pen overnight, do you think this is a good idea or am I pushing my luck a little too far?

[Elrohwen]

I think it’s a good thing to give them a minimum of toys and things – you don’t want one to get territorial over objects. I would keep it barebones for now, like you have it.

They might be ready for overnight. Just remember that they’ll get pretty active, so you might have a lot more chasing/fighting. The first night I put my guys together was rough – I was up very late supervising them. So do it on a night where you can sleep in the next day or don’t mind being tired 😉 Or plan to keep them together until midnight or something, then separate them if it’s still a little crazy.

[Deleted User]

I agree with Elrohwen, plan to keep them together at least until midnight or before you really go to sleep and separate if they are not calm and settled by then.

[boogercj]

Thanks guys! If they are good enough for us to try to keep them together all night should we give them boxes to sleep in as they normally do? We have a couple of boxes that we haven’t used so they won’t have either scent on them?

They are still doing really well, they had one scuffle about 4 hours ago and a few bits of fur went flying but 5 mins in the bonding box and they were fine again and have been fine since, i’ve even been able to venture into the kitchen to get a cup of tea a few times! It’s been about 11 hours now so fingers crossed!

A few other things, how long do you have to watch them for before you can be confident enough to leave them, or is that a very bunny specific question? How long would you leave them in the neutral bonding space before moving to their permenant home and how long before you can give them playtime?

[Deleted User]

Watch them steady for the first 24 hours, do not leave them alone at home for the first 48 hours and don’t attempt a move-in into their old quarters until at least two weeks are up.

[boogercj]

Ok, so we did an overnighter last night. They were still being good when we went to bed so decided just to leave them. There was one scuffle during the night that I had to seperate and also a fair bit of Ariel thumping and running away from a demanding Miranda! They seem to have learned now though if Ariel doesn’t want to do something she will thump and run away and Miranda usually lets her go. I have noticed Miranda trying to hump Ariel this morning but Ariel was having none of it! Miranda also keeps leaping almost binkying towards Ariel but when she gets there doing nothing?! Strange bunnies!

I really want to give them a bit more to do today as i don’t want them to feel punished with no toys and no playtime, they look fidgity too, is this ok to do gradually throughout today, taking anything that causes problems away or is this too fast?

Sorry for all the questions, seems we researched a lot to get to this stage and now we are here have yet still more to learn!

[Deleted User]

You really can’t mess it up just by trying to add a few things and taking away what gets them into a scuffle. Just go with it, try this, try that, and you’ll see. The most important thing is you know when to separate and when to leave them be.

[boogercj]

Thanks for replying Petzy!

Well we’ve added willow mats, which seem to work fine. They’re being sooooo cute right now and sitting right next to each other, having a go at the mat , and they really seem to be enjoying sitting together.

We’re (well, I say “we”, this is the bunnies’ Daddy posting now, and Mummy has sat with them almost the whole time whilst I’ve been at work) now into hour 36   of this epic session and it looks like we might just have this thing sorted. I think Anita is going to go shopping for a couple of hours tomorrow afternoon, which will be a few hours after the 48 hour mark. Fingers crossed they’re going to be cool.

[boogercj]

 

Pics of some sleepy bunnys chilling together at about half 10 last night!  We have gone nearly 48 hours now and at least 24 without a scuffle!  I’m a bit nervous about leaving them for a few hours today but it will be during their quiet time and they have been so good overnight

[jerseygirl]

I have my fingers crossed for you both, and Miranda & Ariel too! If you are accustomed to having the tv or radio on while at home, you could always leave that on (normal volume) when you go out tomorrow. It might keep them settled.

[boogercj]

Thanks Jerseygirl, the TV is usually on so i’ll give that a go I think!

[Deleted User]

I can’t take the suspense… I need an update.

[Elrohwen]

I’m with Petzy! How did it go?

[boogercj]

Lol! “Always leave them wanting more”…

Wellity, Anita went out to a well known Scandinavian homeware store today and left the bunnies on their own together for a whole 6 hours!  which I find wholey irrisponsible, lol! Only kidding. I came home from work to find the bunnies snuggled nicely in the corner of their pen, content and actually looking like “this is our bedroom now, get your noisy butt out of here, and whilst your at it, turn that frigging TV off!”. There was no fur anywhere (except where it should be, of course). I gave them their tea of greens, a bit of carrot and some cucumber and at one point they were both eating from each end of one bit of spring green!!

I think it’s fairly safe to say we’re nearly there now. We are going to wait another half day and extend their temporary pen for playtime by joining our other pen to it. After that I guess we’re properly into the 2 week cementing phase and in that time we’ll deep clean the whole living room and get some new toys and things together for them.

In the meantime, I took a really great picture of them, having finally worked out how to use all the features on the digicam. Liontastic

 

 

 

[Deleted User]

Your bonding story reads like a book. It’s all there: two young females that *seem* to get along as kits but then turn ugly, the unpredicability, the set-backs, the logistics, the happy ending! Love the whole thing

[Elrohwen]

Yay! They look so adorable (and innocent) together.

[boogercj]

Thanks for the comments couldn’t have got here without the site and your help! Cheese over!

Not quite happy families yet! I gave them a couple of boxes this morning to chill out in Miranda decided she wanted both and chased Ariel out. I took them away, Ariel was lamb chopping and Miranda ran up and took a bite of fur out of her bum, she’s also chased her a couple of times since but me shouting soon stopped them! Miranda has just demanded grooms from Ariel and Ariel has obliged and now they are both chilling out in opposite corners of the pen. I guess Mirandas just acting like a kid with a fort who doesn’t want to share with her sister and now Ariel has groomed her maybe she’s forgiven?

Lesson learned – bunnies not ready for boxes!

[Deleted User]

How are they for litterbox sharing?

[boogercj]

Absolutely fine with the litter box, they only have one in the pen at the moment and it hasn’t caused any disagreements!

[Deleted User]

Interesting. Well, I would still leave out any boxes, hidey huts, etc, until at least two weeks of cementing are up.

[boogercj]

Thanks Petzy, I will stay away from anything like that for now! They still seem a little less friendly than they were before Miranda decided to take a chunk of Ariels fur, hopefully they’ll get over it fairly quickly though!

[boogercj]

Into day 5 of cementing now, and all is still well (with the bunnies anyway – we’re still seething after some low life scumbag decided to try and kick our front door down last night – will rant about this ad nauseum in another thread I think)

We did their first playtime last night for 3 hours by extending the pen they’re in using the other pen we have into the bedroom. They pretty much had the entire room to run around in and they absolutely loved it. Binkies galore and no sign of any territoriality.

One thing we’ve noticed is that where we thought Miranda was aiming for “top bun” status, it’s actually less clear who the dominant one actually is. They groom each other equally and generally without prompting…Any ideas? Could it be Miranda is still slightly dominant but chooses to exhibit the behaviour less?

[jerseygirl]

I still peg Miranda as the more dominant. It’s interesting as a few posts back I was thinking its really Miranda that you’ll have to see a change in in this cementing phase. Ariel can’t do anymore really, it’s Miranda that needs to make this happen. It’s good that this may be happening and you are seeing mutual grooming. It happens like that – they just chill and everything is rosy.
Sorry to hear about the attempted break in. You’ll have to set some thumping bunnies onto them. Set Miranda onto them!

[boogercj]

I think you’re right actually. Miranda still has a few dominant tendencies, but I guess they’re just less pronounced than we anticipated, which can only be a good thing. She’s still gives Ariel the occasional “get out of my way” nudges and demands grooms

It’s day 8 of them being together, and they’re just sooo good together now. They’re even cuter when they’re together ‘cos they huddle, snuggle, eat and play together, they’re practically inseperable! It really is a delight to witness . I think we’ll try and get a video of playtime tonight.

Laterz.

 

[boogercj]

Hello all!

Well its been nearly 2 weeks since we moved the buns in together in our bedroom and they seem ‘cemented’!  We have cleaned the lounge with vinegar and have set up a new home for them, complete with logs for them to climb on! 

One question – when we move the buns in do we have to watch them for 24 hours like you do when you first put them in together or should they be ok with a few supervised hours just to make sure?

Here’s a vid of playtime together with their favorite toys!

 

 

[jerseygirl]

Hip hop hooray! This is good to see~congratulations! I think supervising them a few hours should give you an idea of how they’ll be. If it we me I’d camp there just to be sure but thats me being paranoid. You could use a baby monitor maybe? If they’ve been penned for 2 weeks already then they should be good. Put them into the new area earlier in the day (or evening) so they can explore and sort out anything while your up and about. Hopefully you’ll see them settle into their normal routine by the time you retire. btw, I have one of those treat balls – they’re great! Looks like the girls are getting caught up in World Cup fever.

Edit to add: lol  I just read your world cup comment over in habitats and toys!

[boogercj]

Hehe, thanks Jers. I reckon they act more like “WAGS” than actual footballers !

Well they’ve been in their new “habitat” for a good couple of hours now and they’re good as gold and absolutely loving it! I’m going to tempt fate now by changing the title of thsi thread to “bonded”. Pity we can’t crack open any champagne (as we don’t have any) but we’re definitely celebrating. This is the bunnies enjoying their new abode:

Once again, we’d like to offer gratuitous praise to all of you who gave us advice and guidance along the way, and to those who have shared your experiences through bonding journals, and of course to BinkyBunny for running this forum and providing sage advice on the website. Without all of you we wouldn’t have had a clue where to even start.

 

[Minty]

Congrats on the newly bonded girls!!! They are adorable!
I was browsing through your pics and I have to say, I LOVE that wood pile idea.

[Deleted User]

Nice habitat… I want the tree stumps.

[jstukey]

I just wanted to jump in to let you know that i just spent the last half hour reading this entire thread. I wanted to cry at the end – so happy for you guys. I know the stress of it all too well. As I have said, you guys are my inspiration right now. I am following your story like a playbook! Wish me luck!

Also, your girls are SO SO SO cute. So sweet and funny. Buns are the BEST.

-Jackie

[Author]

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