Link for metacam calculator

[GlennTheLionhead]

Hello

Nellie has stopped eating, I’m really not sure why but that is usually the way. I have administered a first dose of smithecone (a little expired), syring fed a couple ml of water and given belly rubs. I’m not sure how to work out how much metacam to give her if she doesn’t perk up after another dose of smithecone and belly rubs. I have 1.5mg/ml for dogs on hand. Can anyone help? I tried and old link but it doesn’t seem to work anymore.

I also have syringe feed and gut stimiulant but I’m not sure about that yet as I don’t think I’m confident telling the difference between stasis and bloat.

Her gut region feels a little stiff. She is pretty much just loafed hiding away, no teeth grinding yet and no tummy pressing. She had a little stretch and doesn’t appear to he in shock as she gave a good run about when I gave her smithecone. I cant be sure of how long ago she last ate and pooped but I know she ate her breakfast well about 12hrs ago. Obviously its night her now so the only option is emergency vet which are often not exotic and is luck of the draw if they are even rabbit experienced depending what vet is on shift.

She failed all treat tests.

Thanks

[DanaNM]

Hmm the links aren’t working for me either but I think we can figure something out. Do you know how much she weighs? There is a wide range of dosages per kg rabbit weight depending on what the issue is and what the vet prescribes. Of course I can’t advise you to give a med without the vet’s approval… but medirabbit says “0.3-0.6 mg/kg, up to 1.5 mg/kg if needed in case of severe pain only”.

My rabbits are between 3 and 5 lbs, and when I was traveling across country my vet said they could all have 0.5mL (of the 1.5 mg/mL concentration) twice per day as needed.

Side note, other things to do in terms of supportive care are take her temperature if you can (if you don’t have a thermometer, feel her ears. cool is OK if it’s cold in the room, but cold means her temp may be low) and check for dehydration. If her temp is low, offer her a warm bottle wrapped in a towel to cuddle with. To check for dehydration, grab a handful of scruff (don’t actually pick her up this way, just grab the scruff in your hand) and then let it go. If she’s hydrated it will snap back quickly. If it kind of rolls slowly back she is likely dehydrated. You can offer her hay tea  (https://binkybunny.com/forums/topic/hay-tea-for-anybunny-who-doesnt-drink-enough-especially-for-ill-or-recovering-rabbits/) and syringe her some small amounts of water. I like to do a couple mL at a time using the 1 mL syringes. Encouraging gentle movement is also good. Tummy massages can also really help, just be gentle. Hopefully it’s some gas that will pass!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bam]

The link is working for me even if at first it says it isnt:

https://www.vgr1.com/metacam/calc1/detailcalc.php

 

 

[GlennTheLionhead]

Thanks so much for your responses both!

Bam that link now works for me so thats great.

Update: my paranoia got the better of me and i took her to the ER vet. The vet was reasonably knowledgeable in rabbits and couldn’t feel a blockage and could hear some little gut sounds. She administered subq fluids, gut stimiulant and an anti sickness med for dogs and cats that acts as a relaxer and pain relief in rabbits. The vet helped keep her warm with a water bottle as she was half a degree below normal temp. The vet said she didn’t seem to be in a critical condition but was definitely in need of some help. I also gave her 0.35 of metacam based off what Bella used to receive about 1.5hrs before I went to the vets, shes had about 8ml of critical care so far, i will give her a little more in an hour or two and then let her rest for the night.

She dranks some water on her own and groomed a bit after her CC.

Fingers crossed this will all help her make a recovery!

[DanaNM]

That’s great she drank some water and the vet knew about buns! I’m sure she’ll be feeling better soon.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

For reference (in case that site ever goes down again or you want to double check your meds), I’ve also used this more generic dosage calculator. It works the same way, you just enter in the concentration you have, the patient weight, and the desired dose in mg/kg.

https://www.omnicalculator.com/health/dosage

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

Thanks so much Dana thats great! I will keep that bookmarked!

So i gave her a couple hours to chill out, when i checked on her, her ears were quite cold which worried me so i cuddled her up into my dressing gown to share body heat and keep her warm, much to her disapproval, I never find water bottles work because they just move away from it. When I was satisfied with her temp I gave her some more CC and offered her 3 carrottop leaves which she gobbled up eagerly, she then groomed a bit. Shes a little lethargic still but also may just be tired.

So a worrying sign + a good sign… So it’s hard to know what to think, In her room she does tend to dig away the blanket and lay on the cold hard floor so that may contribute to her temp. I want to leave her to get some sleep but also I’m worried of her temp going down again. Perhaps I can set her up temporarily in the lounge for the rest of the night so she can lay om the warmer carpet? If that won’t stress her too much.

[DanaNM]

that’s really great she ate a bit on her own! It sounds like she’s starting to feel better. You are right that she is likely tired from her ordeal. I think I would keep her in her normal area to minimize stress. Is she cuddling with Glenn at all?

It usually is good to let buns rest overnight once they have been fed and given meds, but I know whenever I’ve had an unwell bun I personally always end up checking on them overnight at least once.

Do you remember what pain med she was given at the vet?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

She has also since had a little poop and wee and a tiny nibble of hay.

They sleep in a hidey box together overnight and usually cuddle, I lined it with extra fleece she couldn’t dig up so she just refused to sleep there, so I’ve put everything back to normal and since shes a bit perkier I have just left them too it so they can get a few hours of sleep at least.

The pain med was a weird one but the vet assured me its should be fine in rabbits and should help with pain and relaxation- its called maropitant, I believe its uncommon in rabbits but she was hesitant to give metacam due to its harshness or opioids due to their ability to slow the GI.

I also self administered a mild dose of metacam 0.35ml- pre vet trip

[GlennTheLionhead]

Nellie seems to be bouncing back quite nicely. I’m a little stumped on the cause of this stasis episode. I did give her a little peice of pumpkin for the first time about a day ago so this may well be a reaction! She had some poops strung together with mucous but I haven’t seen anymore mucous ones.

When she was weighed at the vet shes actually lost 0.4kg since we adopted her which I think is good as she was overweight but is now a healthy lionhead 1.80… I think, Glenn is smaller than her but weighs about 1.9, he’s always been quite musclely though. I am going to keep an eye on her weight though just to be sure she isn’t dropping it too fast.

Bunnies really are so stressful! I always find that when they start falling suddenly ill it realy can be a matter of life and death if not treated swiftly.

[DanaNM]

Acting quickly is really the best thing for gut issues! I’m glad she’s bouncing back!

Is she molting? Molting is a common cause of GI issues, even when the bun doesnt seem to have been ingesting a lot of hair. Or it could have been the pumpkin! Some buns are really sensitive to new foods, especially if they havent eaten a variety of things before.

I’ve never heard of that med but they really are coming out with new things in rabbit medicine all the time, and it seems like it worked!

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

I can never quite tell when she molts… It feels like she’s never actually molted? Fly away hairs come off her when brushing but I never see tufts so it is hard to tell. She is natural very long haired though so fur ingestion is an issue, we actually end up trying to tackle it by just shaving her fur down because daily grooming is too stressful for her.

She seems to have besn going back down hill again last night, I didn’t kill any time and I gave her another dose of metacam and some cisapride I had on hand from Glenns last dental, sure enough after about 2 hours she returned to normal and even tried scuffing with glenn for her bedtime food which this time was actually nice to see lol.

So I wonder if this points to some underlying issue? Or perhaps I was too hasty in assuming she had recovered. Can some buns perk up then go dowm hill unless given some medication for a few days after a stasis episode?

Shes not eating selectively after meds, and without meds she pretty much wont eat at all, she seems to slow down eating and begin being selective for the tastiest food and becomes lethargic so I’d assume that if I left her to get worse she would just stop eating all together.

Sigh… It can be quite hard to find good rabbit vets around here, all of her vets are more good with rabbits than rabbits specialist. She dies have one whos pretty good and rabbit savvy but hes very difficult to get an appointment with and often doesn’t have the time to do in depth exams as hes the only exotics in the area…

Life as a bun parent is stress lol.

[GlennTheLionhead]

Shes now refusing to eat her cecotropes, I’m not sure quite how many they have per day but there’s about 4-6 lots of cecotropes left out from the last 12ish hours 🙁 she is still eating nibbling here and there on grass and forage though and is excited to receive a treat or a tastier food item- when medicated.

Shes booked in with the exotics specialist tomorrow late afternoon, so 26hrs till we can hopefully get some answers and a top up of medication!

 

[DanaNM]

Stasis recovery can take some time and can have some ups and downs, so I would just continue the care regimen until she’s 100% back to normal! The exotics vet can advise on how long to continue the metacam and how much.

At one point did you suspect a dental issue with her? I can’t remember, but sometimes dental issues can lead to stasis. I wouldn’t jump to that just yet though, since she’s still within the normal recovery time.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

Well I took them both to the vets yesterday as Glenn started to get selective with his food too.

Turns out they BOTH need a dental! I am now dealing with two poorly buns, two lots of medication twice a day, two lots of malformed cecotropes and mushy poops I guess from the dietary upset! It is difficult, they are both doing okay though and still munching and chewing on toys. The poops are a bit worrying but I guess the medication and the eating less hay and then more forage and pellets to compensate for their lack of hay eating is possibly what is causing the mushy poop. There are normal small poops inbetween.

They are both booked in on Friday. They have both already had dentals this year, Glenn only July! I’m nervous that they are going under anesthetic again!! And this may begin to become a commonish problem that needs doing a twice a year which is even more worrying for the anesthetic. I am out of ideas for how I can keep their teeth trim, they only get 8 pellets of science selective a day and a teaspoon of a pellet forage in the evening. They get varieties of high quality hay that they eat mountains of! And they only get natural treats i.e flowers, dried forage leaves, dandelion root. The only slightly processed treat they get is science selective loop, a timothy based biscuit treat….. Sigh… My vet seems to be certain it is just their breed and dental is common in dwarfs.

Is it harder for older buns to go under anesthetic? Is there another way?

Thanks for reading!

 

[Bam]

I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this. I too think it’s their breed that’s causing this. If they didnt have an excellent diet, the problem would have been worse.

We have had rabbits here that had regular dentals until they were very old. In some buns, the dentals are needed less and less often once the teeth have been adjusted so they wear normally with grass.

[GlennTheLionhead]

Thanks for the reassurance, sorry you’ve also had dental buns.

How old did they get too with the regular dentals and how often were they if you don’t mind me asking. I guess its just nice to see what I could be expecting going forward and how it might affect their life expectancy with the regular anesthetic.

Thanks!

[Bam]

The oldest bun I know that had regular and frequent dental burrs was former moderator Little Puffy Tail’s Bindi Loo. I think he was well over 10 when he passed. He had dentals every 3 months if I remember correctly. Bindi was a mini lop with the typical squishy face.

My Vilde had horrible teeth, he had his last dental at 8 years and lived for 9 months more. He was a teddy-lionhead, with an almost absurdly flat face. It was eventually his teeth that killed him, but he was 6 when I got him and his bad teeth had gone under the radar. If he had had regular burrs from a younger age, things would probably not have gotten so bad, many of his tooth roots were “dead” due to being crowded in the oral cavity, alr3ady when I took over him.

Moderator Wick’s Wick had many and frequent burrs during his first years, but then he stopped needing them.

[DanaNM]

Ah what a bummer! But I’m glad you got them booked in and know what the source of the issues is. Lionheads unfortunately are one of the breeds that seems to have more dental issues recently.

And yes it’s not uncommon for buns to need a dental trim every 3-6 months if they have misaligned teeth. Sometimes buns will have problems later in life as their bone density shifts a bit, and often those will only need a couple trims to get back on track.

I don’t know if this is a scientific fact, but my sense is that if Glenn did OK with anesthesia before then he will likely be OK this time. Unfortunately there really isn’t another option for molar filing.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

Thanks for your replies!

Its quite reassuring to know that burrs can be fairly routine for some buns and continue into old age!

Both buns have had their surgeries today and both were successful!

Im a little worried about recovery. Glenn has bounced back really well, already eating hay but Nellie is very quiet, very sleepy, I’ve given her a little critical care about an hour ago and want to give her meds now but shes literally falling asleep in my lap 🙁 she is still lucid and ran back to her pen and groomed a tad after her first CC but she is so sleepy bless her. Is this normal? Shes been back home for about 4 hours now.

[Bam]

How is she doing now? It’s not uncommon for a rabbit to be pretty out of it after anestesia. The important thing is to make sure they arent cold (anestesia can cause hypothermia) and to get them back to eating.

[GlennTheLionhead]

Shes okay. I think how fast Glenn bounced back is making her seem even worse… I have read females can take longer to come back around.

She is a bit more awake and flopping now which is nice, she will take treats and nibble forage here and there but thats about it, her appetite is still quite poor and she needs reminding to eat but she is nibbling so thats nice. Ive given her a little CC with meds this morning, not too much as she hates it and spits it out a little but will eat some. Shes had some cisapride and metacam about an hour hour so might perk up more soon.

It seems like she’s perhaps just having a slow recovery process… Im not sure if that points to anything concerning like underlying issues.

[DanaNM]

Some buns just take longer to recover than others. It’s great she’s nibbling a bit. Their mouths can be sore after the trimming, esp if they already had cuts on their cheeks or tongue, so it can take a little while for eating to get back to normal.

For future reference, I would try some other brands of recovery food to see if you can find one they like (esp since they may need another filing at some point).  It’s also OK to mix with a little mashed banana to encourage her to eat more of it on her own. There are several dif options out there now, and recently I’ve been using Emeraid. Bun Jovi has always hated all “mush” but loves the Emeraid (in fact, all 4 of my buns will eat it willingly). My buns are divided on the Sherwood one, 2 like it, 2 don’t. And I think only Cooper likes Critical Care, which is not surprising since he eats everything lol.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bam]

I agree, some buns take longer to recover. My dental bun Yohio needed a cpl of days after his first burr before he went back to eating normally. He recovered a lot quicker after his later burrs. Maybe his mouthpain was worse the first time, it took my vets a long time to diagnose his dental problem. That was 8 years ago, vets here know more about rabbits nowadays.

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