Lancelot’s e. Cuniculi journal

[vanessa]

Lancelot has always had impeccable litter habits, but has recently started peeing outside his literbox. Nothing new or different in his living area. He has had some trouble with his back left leg, so I have been giving him oxbow natural science joint support tablets. This week I noticed him peeing outside the litterbox. I cut the sides lower so he can get in and out easier, and he seemed to like that. I put puppy pee pads around the area he spends most of his time in, and I see less pee after lowering the sides of the litterbox, but still some. I watched him maneuver around last night, and saw drops of pee as he hoped over items, etc. So some pee is just coming out in drips. Then I used a UV light, and turned off the bedroom lights to find pee ojn the carpet. A few puddles in his sleeping spots. Today I saw that both his back egs are stiff and wobbly. Tomorrow I”m making an appointment for him. I woudl have for it to be arthritis, since that is not curable. EC isn’t a good alternative either. I’m hoping for a bladder infection, but that doesn’t explain the legs. I’m super worried of course, since my first ill rabbit had to be put down. He had similar symptoms, but I didn’t catch them in time and his condition got really complicated. I definitely caught this earlier. That first bunny was an outdor bunny, so I didn’t notice the bladder issues soon enough. Hopefully I get an appointment for him soon. 

[Bam]

I think you should try to get an apt today, asap. Or if that’s not possible, just get him on to Panacur right away. If it EC, he needs treatment asap and Panacur is safe to use and OTC.

[vanessa]

Yeah… I have an appointment for Tuesday, and I also have fenbendazole at the house. I’d rather start him on fenbendazole today, and wait and see what the vetsays on Tuesday. EC is scary.

[vanessa]

Merlin was my bunny with EC. He died. Guin had just started to get the wobble, so she was treated, and she is fine. That was a year ago. But since the parasite stays in the animal regardless, it can always reemerge at a later date. Now that Guin and Lancelot are bonded, I’m worried that she is shedding spores and infecting him. I gave him a dose of fenbendazole this evening in a squashed banana. Yum yum. On Tuesday, if the Vet decides to treat him for EC, I’ll treat Guin as well.

[jerseygirl]

Goodluck, keep us posted. {{{Lancelot}}}

[vanessa]

I think he is walking slightly better today, Still peeing everywhere. Yesterday was dragging his back feet. Today he has a weak hop 🙂 I have four puppy pee pads down in the area that he moves around in, and I change them every night so I can keep on eye on his peeing. He still isn’t moving very far. He hasn’t gone more than a foot past the four puppy pee pads. ‘m still taking him to the vet on Tuesday. And I think I’m going to give him and Guin both a fenbendazole treatment once a year.

[vanessa]

I am hopeful 🙂 I have thought he seemed depressed for a while. Looing back, I see all sorts of things that could inticate an EC infection progressing very slowly. His left rear leg was stiff for a while and I thought it was arthritis. Then he seemed depressed for a while, also an EC symptom. Tonight he showed some interest. He actually attempted to leave my bedroom and go to the rabbit room where Guin had gone to hang out. But when he got to the hallway, he realised that the carpet runner was a foot away from the door, which meant walking on hardwood floring – so he turned around and came back to my room. Tomorrow I’ll put pee pads under the blanket on the floor of the rabbit room, and under the runner. But if the urinary incontinence doesn’t clear up soon, I’ll have to put him in a diaper when he is in my room. I use a uv light at night to see if there are any new pee marks on the carpet in my room. At the moment, no new pee nthe carpet. Which means he isnt moving off the pee pads. And there are only 4 pee pads total.

Certainly sounds as if he’s less confident on the hard flooring , maybe due to some hind end weakness.  How are his hocks looking?  It could also be related to vision. Are the floors or carpet dark in colour? Do you have some old bed sheets you could put down to see if he’ll walk on that? 

[jerseygirl]

Posted By vanessa on 7/16/2016 11:47 PM

I think he is walking slightly better today, Still peeing everywhere. Yesterday was dragging his back feet. Today he has a weak hop 🙂 I have four puppy pee pads down in the area that he moves around in, and I change them every night so I can keep on eye on his peeing. He still isn’t moving very far. He hasn’t gone more than a foot past the four puppy pee pads. ‘m still taking him to the vet on Tuesday. And I think I’m going to give him and Guin both a fenbendazole treatment once a year.

I think it’s recommended to do a  9 day course every 6 months, especially if you’ve had EC in their bond mates before. For an actuve infection, it the 28 day course.

[vanessa]

I like that idea. Ill start guin today on 9 days. I think ill do the other pair aswell. Lancelots hind legs r definitely weak. His hocks look good. The floor is dark wood, the runner carpet is brightly colored. Ill just make sure it is sll the way up to the door. He is deaf and has poor vision. When i adopted him he was recovering from cataracts, malnutrition, squishy poops, stasis, u name it. Maybe his cataracts were from prior ec. I gave him a butt bath today and im picking up diapers this afternoon. When he is awake he doesnt oee on himself that badly. But when hs is asleep, he just lies there and pees.

[vanessa]

He is 4lbs so I got preemie diapers. Too small. Tomorrow I’ll get size 1. He wasn’t impressed with me at trying the diapers. I look for signs of improvement many times a day. I think he has stopped getting worse. That’s good. Still pees everywhere, especially while asleep. He looks better after his butt bath.

[vanessa]

Lancelot sleeps sitting up quite often. Head bobbing, lightly snoring. I took this picture to show his back legs resting so far forward. 

Here’s another view of his back leg resting forward. None of my other buns sit this way. Their back legs are farther back. They wouldn’t cooperate for a comparison photo. Back legs resting forward are an indication of weak hind limbs. 

These are the 4 pee pads I’ve placed in my bedroom. Today Lancelot ventured off the pee pads. You can see the urine marks. He sleeps in the corner behind the door. That pee pad is soaked by morning.He was lookign better today. I’ve been tryign to get Guin to take the medicine in fruit like he does, but she isn’t as keen on sugar as him. So eventually I tookt he syringe and gave it to her orally. Now she is hiding from me. I cut out a corner and a side from the litterbox to make it easier for him to get in and out. 

[vanessa]

Had a sonogram today at the vets office. Tiny crystals in his urinary system, but the vet said they are to small to be concerned about. Urynalisis for glucose and kidney function came up fine. I checked my fenbendazole dose with the vet which he said was fine, so I’m going to continue the fenbendazole for 4 weeks. The vet gave him metacam incase the legs are arthritis pain, and smz incase the incontinence is from a urinary infection. I’m still convinced it is EC. But I guess with a combo of drugs, who knows which will work. I do know I’ve seen improvement since putting him on fenbendazole. Guin is not happy with me – day 2 of syringe meds for her since she won’t take her meds on fruit.

[vanessa]

Lancelot did well yesterday. Only pee on one pee pad. Same thing today. But this evening he would’t take his snack, he hasn’t pooped much today, and everytime I pet him, he turns and puts his back to me. I’m worried he isn’t feeling well.I’ll have to give him his meds by syringe this evening. Along with some critical care if he doesn’t eat before I go to bed.

[vanessa]

Tonight he had a stinky skunk smelling squishy cecum poop stuck to his butt. Still hasn’t eaten pellets, only pooped about 20 tiny pellets today. Wouldn’t eat his fresh hay, vegetables, or treats. I have benebac somewhere here… Need to find it tomorrow. In the mean time I put probiotics in his drinking water that I use for the birds. I fed him a dose of critical care. He liked the flavor. He had stasis before I adopted him. I need to get his belly moving again. He is acting so off. Turns his back to me, only interested in sleeping.

[jerseygirl]

It might be the meds affecting his appetite, especially in the beginning. How did he seem after the metacam? Did the vet give you some to give him daily?

{{{Lancelot}}}

[vanessa]

After Fenbendazole he was improving. Once I started the SMZ (which he has been on before with no ill effects), and metacam (vet gave me enough for a week daily), it took two nights for his belly to go off. The SMZ is twice a day, metacam is once a day. Last night I stopped giving him the SMZ and maetacam. I still gave him the fenbendazole this morning. Perhaps he could continue the SMZ, since he has had it before with no problem. But he’s never had metacam before. If it is the metacam that shut down his belly, I’d rather give him aspirin. I know it’s controversial, but he has been on aspirin before with no issues. Right now I want to get his stomach back on track before introducing new meds, but I’m keeping him on the fenbendazole. He didn’t eat or drink anything last night. 6 poops stuck with goo to his butt this morning from the 20ml of critical care solution I gave him last night. Per the package directions, I’m giving him 1.5Tbsp critical care mixed with water, 4 times a day. So this morning, his 1.5Tbsp ended up as 60ml. I added a teaspoon of benebac. He normally drinks 2-3 cups of water a day. I took the sticky poop off his butt and put it next to the food bowl for him. I thought the 6 poops stuck to his butt were at least a better size, and after syringe feeding him, I could hear gurgly noises from his belly that I’m used to hearing. But jeesh I’m worried. He’s had sticky poop before, but he’s never stopped eating/drinking.

[vanessa]

It was the metacam. He ate his greens today 🙂 So relieved. No more metacam. Now I’ll just kee an eye on the peeing. He still pees outside the box while he is asleep.

[vanessa]

Well, he’s still not eating his pellets. He eats his greens though, drinks water, not a lot of poop. So I’m still worried. The benebac package says for a dose every second day. He doesnt’ feel well. He still turns his back to me, and ignores Guin. She is lonely and asks me for more attention than normal, and since heis ignoring her, she doesn’t get to groom him, so his eyes are getting weepy again. I wipe them dry everytime I’m int he bedroom, and use a warm cloth on his face twice a day. He likes that.

[vanessa]

This morning he felt much better. After stopping the metacam, I started up the SMZ again, and then aspirin. Contraversial I know, but following meddirabbit, I’ve had success with aspirin with my rabbits. I wish someone woudl do a scientfic study on aspirin and rabbits – coz that’s really what we are missing. Anyway – the metacam was supposed to be for 5 days, so I’l do aspirin for 5 days. This morning he was hoping around the room. Feeling much better. Still not eating pellets or drinking much water, but eating all his greens, and starting to poop again. Since he is hopping around the room again, and still peeing wherever he finds himself, I put him in a diaper.

[vanessa]

Awesome. This afternoon he was eating pellets and drinking water. Tomorrow is the last aspirin day. Hopefully his incontinence clears up soon. He needs another butt bath tomorrow. I need to check for urine scald.

[vanessa]

Poor lkittle guy, I bathed him this evening. He sits very still in my lap, and almost goes to sleep. I need to rim hair every time I bath him. I’ve never heard a rabbit chater it’s teeth in fear/stress/pain, only the happy tooth pur. But I think he was chattering his teeth while I put diaper rash cream around his wet spots. I feel terrible. Ihave flashbacks to Merlin – competely paralyzed, i a diaper, urine scald, it was dreadful. I bathed him 4 times a day, but the urine just dribbled out. He had zero control. And I discovered it too late, as he was an outdoor bunny at the time. I caught Lancelot’s problem a lot sooner, so I hope he will get better. It sucks seeign him wet himself, use a diaper, and turn his back to me after the bath. 🙁 I’m glad he is eating again. I gave him more benebac today. Need his incontinence to get better.

[vanessa]

He was doing so good last night, but this morning the paralysis had spread to his front limbs. He can’t move around and hasn’t figured out how to crawl. Merlin used to drag himself around to get to is food. Lancelot hasn’t figured that out. He had good looking poops in his diaper this morning, but he seemed confused about his lack of mobility this morning and didn’t eat his greens. If there are no poops in his diaper this afternoon, I’ll resume the critical care. I keep reading that sometimes rabbits can recover from E.C. Merlin had it so bad, I had him euthanized. He was in terrible shape, and had complications. I am so afraid for Lancelot.

[jerseygirl]

Oh poor fella. {{{Lancelot!}}} Maybe he needs to go on dual anti-inflammatories? I *think* tramadol can be given with a NSAID.

It’s so very hard when you’re nursing a rabbit and it brings back memories another. Stay positive, tomorrow he may rally again.

[vanessa]

I’m trying to get hold of the vet. I want to bring him in. I read somewhere about success using panacur and ivermectin combined. I also ready about using baytril instead of smz, and yes, since aspirin isn’t recommended and the metacam made him stop eating, perhaps he needs a different NSAID. I’d like to get back to the vet this afternoon. I can’t tell if his front end paralysis is that, or head tilt. I saw picture on one of the rabbit websites that is his exact posture – Rear legs lying to the right, front legs to the left, head lying to the right.

[vanessa]

I spoke with the vet. He wants to wait a few more days to give the SMZ time to take full effect. If no improvement, he wants to try chloramphenicol since it works across the blood brain barrier, but would still be able to treat an infection outside of the brain. (inner vs middle ear?).
He said he doesn’t want to pigeon-hole it as E.C. Since positive titers don’t prove what caused the symptoms, he hasn’t done a titer.

[jerseygirl]

I don’t recall using ivermectin with panacur but I have heard of using ponazuril or toltrazuril sulfone used alongside panacur for EC treatment.

Has the vet discussed doing x-ray at all? In case this is related to a spinal issue?

[vanessa]

No x-ray discussion. Merlin was x-rayed because he was already paralyzed by the time I got him to the vet. Lancelot could still use his front legs. By now, he can only move his head. I’m sure he’ll get an x-ray next time I bring him in. The vet still wants to give the SMZ a day or two. He hasn’t had any trauma to the spine. It’s sad. He is getting used to his new immobility, it’s horrible to watch though. I put him in a cat bed last night so he can get off he solid floor. He does eat a small amount of greens if I put them within reach. No pellets, and no water. I’m feeding him critical care, but I want to double his water intake. He is pooping good, but in a diaper. The one good thing – is that he is quite content in my arms. Unlike my other bunnies. He has been very sleepy lately, and will fall asleep in my arms while I’m holding him like a baby, on his side, his back, whatever. I know bunnies don’t like to be on their backs, and that they “calm down” out of fear, but I think he is different. He honestly seems to be relaxed with it. As long as I don’t leave his legs dangling. If they are in the air and I put a cloth over his feet, he relaxes. He still likes to be petted, and I make sure Guin can reach him for kisses. I’ll call the vet Friday and see what he wants to try next.

[vanessa]

Today was decent. I have him in a cat bed, but he fell out this afternoon, so I have boarded it up and am trying out different setup. I’ll try a fuzzy blanket on the ground tonorrow. He woud be super comfy on fleece bedding, but Guin pees on fleece and I don’t want to separate them. He takes the syringe feeding/watering well. He has eaten 2 bok choy leaves today, 1 butter lettuce leaf, and 1 green cabbage leaf. I’m still feeding him critical care, and I add benebac every second day. I’m impressed with that mix. His cecum poops are looking perfect now. His physical condition hasn’t improved much, but his mood has. He has been grooming his chest, (all he can reach with his limited movement). I’ve been reading on the disabled rabbits website. They have a lot of helpfu information. I gave him a bunny massage today, and cleaned his ears. He enjoyed it.

[jerseygirl]

Aw bless him.
Interesting about the benebac!

How are you holding up?

[vanessa]

Thanks for asking. I’m trying to figure out how to care for him and still get everything else done around the house. I have 2 dogs, 4 bunnies, about 40 birds, a fish tank, 4 bee hives, a boyfriend, and a job. Changing his diaper and bathing him in the mornign is notsomething I’m used to doing – and still get to work on time. I got a baby bath from walmart, some cornstarch, a comb, diaper rash cream, and I’ve been expiramenting with diferent size diapers. The preemy was too small. Newborm was a snug fit, but I like size 1 – because it isn’t too snug around his hip. Their skin chaffes so easily while wearing a diaper. I also tried doggy diapers with the pre-cut hole. The hole is too big and lets all the pee through, so he gets soaked. The padded part of the doggy diaper is meant to hold maybe a tablespoon of liquid. The human diapers work best for holding pee. His condition asn’t changed. Still can only move his head, he eats his greens, grooms his chest, and falls asleep on my lap. I put the dogs out of sight this evening and hald Lancelot on my lap with a pee pad between his legs, to give him a break from the diaper. I’m still looking at the disabled bunny website for ideas on how to make this easier for him and me. At the moment I’m late for work every day, I go to bed after midnight, and barely get the house cleaned up. I’ll figure it out. In the mean time, I’m just hopign he improves. I’ll call the vet tomorrow and see what he says.

[vanessa]

I put him back on aspirin because he was gritting his teeth again. The aspirin works quickly, and he feels good for a few hours, then starts gritting hsi teeth again. I”m afraid to put him back on metacam because it completely stopped him eating. I started chloramphenicol a few days ago. I have been placing him in a cat bed, turning him every few hours so he doesn’t get pressure sores. He has only been able to move his head. This evening, I found him sitting upright outside the cat bed! He probably rolled out, but he managed to sit upright, which he hasn’t been able to do for the last week. I also decided that diapers are not the best option for him. He pees a lot. They keep the liquid close to his skin, where pee pads turn it into gel. Placing him on a pee pad seems to keep him drier than a diaper. As long as I place him so that pee won’t land on a leg (lying on his side), run down his butt (lying on his back), or collect in a puddle (sitting in a corner). I’ve figured out different ways of placing him ont he lee pad, supported with towels, and having a pee pad in between hsi legs to keep the pee of his skin. It works better than a diaper. Once he starts moving more, I will have to find another way – since he’ll undo the delicate pee pad positioning… He is still not eating pellets or drinking water, he eats a small amount of greens, and I feed him critical care, benebac, and water through a syringe. Poor Guinevere. I still want to find time to start bonding her with Avalon and Morgana, in case Lancelot doesnt’ recover enough to sattisfy her grooming needs. She is quite lonely. She’s given up on him, and spends her time in the bunny room feeling lonely. She rushes me for petting, but it’s as if she realizes she won’t get anything from him. I feel really bad for her. She hangs out at the fence next to Avalon and Morgana, or hides in her cardboard box. Lancelot is her second husbun. Her first, was Merlin, who had EC with complications really badly. This week I want to give Avlalon and Morgana a 9-day treatment too.

[vanessa]

Oh – I’ve been giving him bunny massages, and stretching and retracting his legs, for physical therapy. His joints have become quite stiff. So 2 or 3 times a day, I work the feet, legs and thighs, to move the ankle, knee and hip joints, I rub the soles of his feet. I use a warm cloth on his face and eyes, and I clean his ears. He enjoys that.

[vanessa]

Lancelot is on the mend! Im so happy. Iv been close to tears about this, since merlin had the same thing and was eurhenized. Last night lancelot lay down (flopped over) but was able to turn himself afew times to lie on the opposite side. This morning he took a few steps backwards to get off his pee. I read 2 case studies that included 2 doses of ivermectin 7 days apart. So i dont know if it was the ivermectin ot the chloramphenicol, probably thechlorampjenicol. But something made him start to get better. He still has a long road ahead, but im so happy to see improvement.

[vanessa]

Tonight he drank water on his own It’s been a week since he was able to do that. I have to rearrange his setup as he regains more mobility. He still falls over, struggles to sit back up, and I haven’t seen him walk/hop, but he did move by himself once in the last few days. From a sitting position, he can shuffle back, and turn around. Watching him try to sit up from lying on his side, his back legs spin in the air, and if they catch the floor surface, he is able to propel himself up. He likes it when I place him in a sitting position, so he can groom his face. I put his waterbowl in front of him in his cordoned off area so he can shuffle forward to reach it, and hopefully not lie next to it. If he turns so it is on his side, he’ll fall over and land against it. Ouch. I keep rethinking the diaper/pee pad situation. Diapers suck for more than 2 hours. If I am at home and can change the diaper in less than 2 hours, then it works fine. But if I plan on not being home, like going to work, I take the diaper of. It doens’t hold more than one pee. Siting him on a pee pad works better to keep him dry. But diapers are still handy for holding him for medicine, cleaning, etc. At first I struggled with the corn starch. Since he was in a diaper all day while I was at work he was always soaked. Even with a hair dryer and corn starch, I couldn’t seem to keep him dry. The cornstarch formed a thick damp mess. By using the pee pad for long periods instead of the diaper, he is drier, and the corn starch works great now. I shake it on, rub it into his fur, and then pick it off with a comb.

[jerseygirl]

So pleased to be reading about these improvements!! May they continue! {{{Lancelot}}}

[Bam]

I’m glad to hear he’s doing better!

[vanessa]

 

Here he is asleep in his diaper and veggies and Guin’s favorite stuffy. (Celery heart is so soft I don’t chop it up. I do chop the dark green celery).   Since the litterbox is a hard uneven surface, I swap him between the litterbox, cat bed, and fleece bedding.

Diapering, paralysis, and incontinence is something I dont’ often read about in terms of people’s own experiences. So I wanted to post some of my experiences here, incase anyone else has bunny incontinence to deal with. I expect his recovery to take a few months – at the rate he is going. So I’ll write again when I see more improvement. At the moment, it is much of the same. 

[jerseygirl]

Oh what a darling!

I had a bunny I nursed through head tilt one time. She and was on both panacur, baytril & metacam. She did become incontinent during this and spent a week or more lying on her side. I didn’t diaper her but did similar to what you have tried, placing her on puppy pads and switching those out often. She did a uncontrollable/rolling so it was a challenge to keep those in place. I also used memory foam mats that I kept swapping over and lots of towels. It was sort of learn-as-I-go. If I had to nurse another rabbit with her symptoms through it, I would probably use something like vet bed.
I had read at the time that I lot of people see more improvement once the course of meds is finished. That you have seen some changes now is really promising.

I understand what a hard slog this is. My thoughts are with you, Lancelot and Guin. btw, my little girl was one of a trio. She was separated out because of the care I needed to give her. After a month, she was still a little fragile but was able to go back in with her mates. I did have to monitor this for a bit as the other female (her own daughter!) was a bit territorial. She wasn’t terribly aggressive, just seemed uncertain and reactive. It didn’t take much for things to go back to normal though.

[vanessa]

Thank you 🙂 Guin is upset that Lancelot is ignoring her. She has been avoiding Lancelot. Today she chinned his ear!

[vanessa]

Appetite is waaaaay better today. He is eating all his greens. Tonight he ate pellets for the first time in over a week, so I skipped the nightly critical care syringe feed. I’ll bet he was happy about that! I’ve been syringe feeding him every morning and evening. I can feel every rib bone. He has lost a lot of weight. Tomorrow I’ll weigh him, but he is quite skinny. You can’t tell under all that fur… I’m exited about his appetite improving. He is still incontinent, and has a hard time moving. I was watching him sit today. He starts to sag, lifts his chest up, sags, lifts his chest up, sags, etc. When he changes his posture and holds his front legs stiff and directly underneath him, he is able to sit upright without sagging. When I get home from work, he is lying on his side. He tries to get up, and sometimes he manages. Othertimes, his legs just spin and he is unable to sit up. He likes it when I place him in a sitting position so he can groom himself. Guin came into the room today and sat next to him. He still doesn’t feel well enough to pay attention to her. I love that little guy. I’m so relieved that he is improving. He looked so bad last week, my boyfriend was checking to make sure he was still breathing.

[QPDoll]

I am so glad to hear that he is getting better!!

[vanessa]

I gave him his second dose of ivermectin and he is doing better. He holds a sitting position quite nicely, so i dont lie him on his side anymore. I’ll post a pic later. I have him positioned with a rolled up towel so he is sitting, but can rest his head to sleep. He has stopped chattering his teeth in the mornings so i stopped the aspirin and he still seems to feel ok. I put his food and water where he can reach it without having to move, and as long as he maintains his weight, i wont need to syringe feed him. If he feels good next week, ill start tempting him to move to reach veggies.

[jerseygirl]

This is all sounding very promising! So glad to hear it. The weigh gain might come when he has full mobility again. Maple took some time to regain good body condition after her month+ illness.

[vanessa]

Road trip. I have him on my lap for a weekend jaunt. He has akeays been a good little traveler. Nothing seems to phase him. So i cut more hair everytime i bath him, but i still have a hard time keeping him dry. That thick hair just doesnt dry well all the way thru, even with a hair dryer. Some of the hair around his butt is comming off. I want to get him to the vet this week for a shave.

[vanessa]

Back from the road trip. I had lancelot on my lap for the 4-hour drive each way. He is such is good little traveler, u would have to c it to believe it. When the car comes to a stop, he eats his veggies. It was too cutr. He was sniozing with his chin on my arm, and he was periodicaly licking my arm on the drive home. Iv read about bunnies who groom their humans, but this was a first for me. The road was quite curvy, it was like balsnce physical therapy for him.

[vanessa]

Doing really well today. apart from that one day that he dragged himself 4 feet over to his litter box, I haven’t seen movement like that. He has gone from moving only his head, to holding a sitting position. I haven’t seen him be able to sit up from a lying position in a while, but he is holding the sitting position really well, and has started to turn around and face the opposite direction. I have been placing a towel around him like a donut for support, but this morning I moved it outward so he has a 20×28″ space to move in. I gave him a stuffy to rest his face on. I am reading a book called “when your rabbit needs special care”, and it talks about paralyzed rabbits needing something to rest their head on. I noticed that the whole ride back this weekend, he had his chin on my arm. So he does like to rest his face on something. When I leave for work I place him in his resting position in front of the stuffy, so he can rest his head when he feels like it. Doing really well. He shuffles his feet when he soils his diaper. It’s as though he is trying to move off of it. So that’s my cue to change him. Still working at cutting the matted hair of him. It is coming off above his tail, and probably at the base of the tail too. It’s a challenge keeping his tail dry. I like Muchelle’s suggestion of using a female sanitary pad in a doggy pantie. I have a doggy pantie for him that I have tried, but the doggy sanitary liner just doesn’t’ absorb enough. So I’ll try a human sanitary liner next. The constant battle to keep a diapered bunny dry… One good thing about the long car ride this weekend, was that I could hold him on my lap with a diaper against him, but not fastened. So he did get a nice break from the diaper this weekend. His appetite keeps improving. He Use to drink 2 cups of water a day. He is now drinking 1 cup a day. Huuuge improvement from me having to syringe feed him water. He has nibbled a pellet or two in the last few days, but this morning he had eaten 1/4 cup pellets. Fantastic! He hasn’t eaten any hay since he got sick. So now that his appetite is better, I hope to see him try the hay again.

[LBJ10]

They make human pads designed for incontinence. Perhaps that would be most appropriate for soaking up urine?

[vanessa]

Hey thats a great idea. I was going to try female sanitary pads, but I’ll hit up Walmart tomorrow and see what they have. Thanks.

[vanessa]

Here he is in his litter box with a blanket, then a donut towel, then a pee pad. He did well, so I removed the donut and padded the plastic edges.

Today he didn’t do well. He was more wobbly, and gritting his teeth again. He wasn’t holding his sitting position and was sliding sideways, including his head. So I gave him a good solid donut again, and a stuffy to rest his head on. He’s eating his pellets in this picture. He has been very sleepy today. Looked like he was in pain again. 

[vanessa]

1 baby aspirin later, and he is sitting upright again. I think his appetite is ompletely back to normal now. Eating the same amount of pellets he use to, and al his greens. Still not eating hay, or drinking the same amount of water, but improving on the water. Tomorrow I’m going to try the human incontinence pads, and the overnight diapers.

[LBJ10]

Aww, that sweet thing. Glad to hear he perked up a bit.

[jerseygirl]

It’s interesting what you observed about him liking to rest his head on something. I was reading here about disabled rabbits liking things to rest on, like rolled towel etc. http://www.specialbunny.org/special-needs-housing/

Have you tried a barrier cream on his bare skin at all?  That can help protect it from the urine. Only problem is it can get rather sticky from the body heat, but it still does the job pretty well. I’ve used nappy rash cream before (sudocream) which is really thick when cold. It has a bit more staying power then other creams once it warms. 

[vanessa]

Sudocrem is exactly what I’m using. I think it works great. He had a clump of matted hair on his back at the base of his tail, and I could tell it was pretty much loose from his skin, but still matted in place. I tried gently cutting in between the skin and the matted hair to get the clump off, but he didn’t like that, so I rubbed sudocrem on his skin up against the hair mat, and it came right off, and he found that more tolerable. Once I had put the sudocrem on his skin, it healed right up and is now growing fur again. Next challenge is the tail. I tried a size 2 overnight diaper today, with tail in, instead of tail out. I suspect the hole that the tail sticks out of – allows urine onto that part of the tail, because when you cut the hole for the tail – you cut through the layer that keeps the moisture off the skin. So once the moisture can travel out of the hole in the diaper – the closest thing for it to go to – is the tail. I’ll see how it worked when I get home from work.

[vanessa]

He was a real trooper today. First I used a knitted scarf as a sling and tried to encourage him to walk 8 feet to one of his favorite hang-outs in my room. He didn’t make an attempt to move his legs. I know he can move them… He can turn around, stretch his legs, stretch his toes, and sometimes I think that while I’, cutting his hair, he is periodically thrashing a leg in an attempt to stomp. I bathed and groomed him for about 90 minutes today. Long I know – but he needed a hair cut. I had to get the hair off his tail so I could put sudocrem on. There is still some hair I want to remove, but I’m happy with getting it off his tail. Today is day 22 since taking him to the vet and starting the medication. On day 28 or around there, I want to take him back for a checkup and a sanitary shave. I start a new job around that time (yay), so I’ll try get his appointment for next week before the new job. I like the size 2 diaper. It worked well. I cur into it like Caudex described in her thread, and with the tail in, it was dry by the time I got home from work. In the middle of the night, I often get up to use the loo… and when I do, I change his diaper. I made sure to have something to drink before bedtime this evening so I can get up in the middle of the night and change his diaper and see how the size 2 overnight diaper is holding up, with the tail in. Tomorrow I want to get at his ears with a q-tip. They have always been clean, and still are, but he enjoys being groomed. Up till now I’ve been using a thin warm wet rag to clean in and outside his ears. He has always had exceme-lookign scabs on the outside of his ears. I put sudocrem on. We’ll see if it helps 😉

[vanessa]

Update: Sudocrem works great on his ear scabs, and the human incontinence pad is FANTASTIC with a folded cloth diaper. Everythign else is still the same. Guin had been coming by to visit him now that he is feeling better. She hops into his box and pees in the corner. Yay. But at least they are “communicating” again. I switched out his stuffy, and gave him the one that Guin licks the most. He looooooooves it. Grooms and licks it, buries his head under it, pushes and bumps it to request grooming, it’s so terribly cute.

[Reesebun]

Poor Lancelot

[vanessa]

26 days on medicine now. Guin visits him every morning and evening, so he must be feeling better enough to communicate with her. While he was lying on my lap last night, he used is hind leg to scratch his neck. he still can’t reach his face yet, with his hind or front feet. Instead of just dribbling pee, he shot a stream that landed against a wall 2 feet away! Progress!

[vanessa]

Day 27 – Today he did well without his donut. The last time I tried removing the donut, he lay down on his side and wet himself. Today he stayed in a seated position, turned around few times, and stayed seated, so I let him sit in a hay-filled litterbox during the day so I could constantly check on him. No wetting himself. Fantastic. At the moment, I’ll still diaper him overnight and while I’m at work. I need to make an effort to let him walk 2 feet a day to get to his treats.

[jerseygirl]

This is sounding great! A lot of people saw a lot of improvement after the course of med was finished, so I have my fingers crossed that’s what will happen with {{{Lancelot}}} !

[vanessa]

Slow, but more progress today. I think Lancelot has been feelign better lately. He is starting to “act” himself again. Turning his back on me when he is tired and grumpy, and sniffing the air exitedly when he smells that I have brought veggies into the room. When I place him down after changing his diaper, he used to just keep still. Now as I am putting him down, he swings his legs trying to reach the ground, like he used to. He still doesnt’ walk. Only hobbles to turn around. His litter box is 28 inches ling, about 20 inches wide. Nicely lined. I put hay and wood pellets (Guins normal litter material) in a third of it so she can pee/poop there without wrecking his pee pad in a matter of seconds. He uses the two-thirds of the box, surrounded by his donut and two stuffies. This mornign I took the donut out to give him a chance to move around. He actually did attempt it. He hobbled over to the side with the hay, lifted his butt, and peed in his diaper. That was awesome. He made a conscious atttempt (albeit diapered), to pee in the hay, which is also his normal litter arrangement. Super happy about that.

I have been able to keep him dry now for a while, and I’m convinced I have the urine scald under control. When I called to ask the vet for a shave, he was on vacation for 10 days. So I just kept at it with a pair of round-tipped scissors. I have him quite nicely trimmed, really close to the skin. Here’s what I have fouind helpful so far, in keeping him dry:
– proper size diaper (for 3-times his weight)
– overnight diaper
– human incontinence pads in a cloth diaper (only if I can keep them from sliding sideways)
– limit the wet baths since it is so difficult to dry him
– baby powder
– Change the diaper OFTEN (preferabley every three hours)
– Express his bladder before putting on a new diaper (I can feel now if his bladder is ful or empty).
– and for skin healing, Sudocrem.

I also suspect he may have and always has had – gas. His belly has always gurgled, and I notice that while I’m changing him, he seems relieved to lie on his side. He ends up passing gas, and it smells! Bunny farts stink! Who knew!

[vanessa]

Yay 🙂 After changing his diaper, I put him on the ground about 10 feet from his litter box. He made a mad hobbly stumbly dash back. Not at all coordinated. Looked like one very drunk bunny. I had my hands very gently against his hips to keep him from falling. He still can’t get up once he has flopped over.

[vanessa]

Holding thumbs that he doesnt pee in himself tonite. He has been kicking hid diaper off. Good for muscle-nerve imprivement, but challenging to keep dry. So today, no diaper. Im out at dinner. He has been sitting in ositions i havent seen him use in a while. Thats good. Now hoping that he doesnt flop over, and if he does, that he mobes to avoid peeing in himself.

[Benthebunny]

healing (((vibes))) for lancelot. give him some extra pets for me 

[LBJ10]

So he’s showing improvement? Would some “physical therapy” help? Acupuncture?

[vanessa]

He made great improvement yesterday. Moving around to stay dry while peeing. No diaper. I have been waiting for this sort of improvement to consider physical therapy. The closest place i can find on the internet is 90 minutes away. Ill call my vet and the local hrs to find a closer place. I do have a suitable size life jacket to let him swim, but i do want him evaluated first. So thats what ill b looking for on monday. I put him 10 feet from his veggies once or twice a day, to see how his hobbling is improving. Still needs support at his hips to avoid falling over, but he can hobble 10 feet every day 🙂

[LBJ10]

Hydrotherapy is a good idea if he’ll tolerate it. I’ve heard it has helped a few other buns on the forum over the years. Hopefully you can find somewhere closer since you don’t want to stress him out too much before and after.

[vanessa]

Yeah… The only reason I haven’t done hydrotherapy at home yet, is that I suck at drying him. I don’t use a hair dryer myself for my rediculuousely long hair, so I get impatient using a hair dryer. I think most of his hair loss around the butt area is from bathing him, not from urine scald. I found it really difficult to dry him properly before putting the diaper back on, especially on a work morning. I need time and patience – to dry him properly. I had planned on trying it next weekend, since this weekend we have house guests. He handles car rides really well The 90 minute drive is a drain on me… not him. He relaxes in a crate in the car, and on my lap. He is deaf – and I suppose that helps. He eats when the car has come to a stop (traffic light, etc), so I know for sure he is not stressed by car rides. None of my other bunnies will eat or drink in a car.

[vanessa]

So Lancelot has made an attempt to get to the other side of the bedroom 🙂 Now that he is discovering his legs, I am diapering him before I go to bed if he is looking particularly active. He got half the way accross the bedroom, stopped there, pooped and peed on the carpet (yay), and didn’t make it back to the litterbox. This afternoon when I got home from work, he had stepped into his water bowl with his back leg and couldn’t lift his leg out, so he sat there for who knows how long, pooping and peeing in the waterbowl. So it was time for a real bath – in the bath tub – in a life jacket. He didn’t want to swim. He just floated. But he did get a good bath. Next time, I’ll try some strawberries to encourage him to move his legs in the bath tub.
When I chatted with the vet earlier about physical therapy, he felt it was something I could do at home. I ordered a dyna disc for balance exercises. I’ll chat with the vet tomorrow about him again. His eyes were weepy during the first few weeks of his illness. They cleared up, and now are weepy again. I mean sopping weepy. His face is a mess from his eyes. He can’t reach them with his paws. He hasn’t eaten hay since he got sick, so I also want his teeth looked at.

[Benthebunny]

Aww lancelot pull through buddy <3

[LBJ10]

I remember when we first tried hydrotherapy with our dog. She had a life jacket on and when she realized that, she just floated there. Simply refused to kick her legs! I’m glad to hear you have some therapy ideas worked out and that he is trying to get around more on his own.

It’s hard to know what’s causing the weeping. Teeth are a good place to start.

[vanessa]

Good progress last night. Instead of only resting with his head on his stuffie, left front leg to the side and right front leg facing strait behind, he was able to lie with his front feet directly ahead of him on the ground, head resting oh his front legs. Haven’t see him do that in over 2 months. He also sat up from a lying position, so I let him go the night without a diaper. All dry this morning. Diaperless today again. He can groom the side of his mouth. Can’t quite reach his eyes yet. The weepiness has subsided somewhat. I’m using sudocrem on a cotton tip to reach the skin under the caked eye gunk, and on the fur, to help loosen and soften it so I can trim it around his eyes. I’ve been placing him on the floor next to Guin in the afternoons so they can snuggle. Guin has started to groom his face again, so I’ll leave the sudocrem off and see it goes not that she is grooming him again. Her grooming him is super helpful in keeping his face dry.

[jerseygirl]

Great to read he’s been able to spend time with her again. And of his progress!
I wonder if she had been maintaining his eyes prior to him falling ill?

[vanessa]

As long as they are snuggly, she maintains his eyes. While I was busy bonding them, she wasn’t maintaining his eyes because he hadn’t accepted her yet. Once he got over that hump, she started on his face, and his eyes stayed dry. If he ignored her, she would get nippy, and he would “shun” her. Then I would notice his face getting wet around the eyes. When he got sick, that first month was difficult on her. He felt too sick to show interest in her, and she retreated to the bunny room. Now that he is feeling better and showing interest in her again, she is spending most of her time in my room with him, and only goes to the bunny room for a few hours each day. The better they get along, the better she maintains his eyes. It was an interesting realization for me!

[vanessa]

Pictures 🙂 Here is Lancelot on the Dyna Disc eating his treats. I do this daily with him for physical therapy. 

Guin recognizes the atention he gets. She wants some too! 

He is resting in a nice meat loaf position. Good progress on the front legs.

I got home this evening and he was out his litter box, in a meatloaf with his head flat on the ground like hers. When I turned on the camera he curled up like this. So sweet. He hasn’t been able to stretch his legs out behind him like she is doing. 

[vanessa]

When he first got sick and I started giving him Metacam, he stopped eating and drinking all together, and I was syringe feeding him food and water for 2 weeks. I did notice his poops getting a little bit smaller before realising he was sick. Since he fell ill, he hasn’t been able to reach his butt to eat cecum poops, and he has spent about a week max – without a diaper, since 19 June. I’ve been offering him his cecum poops, but he hasn’t touched them. I still give him benebac once a week. His poops have been looking really good lately. But tonight I watched him eat the cecum poop that Guin left behind! Yummy! When I saw that, I realised that Over the last 2 days, I haven’t found his cecum poops in the hay. So he must be eating them after he poops them out. Small improvements. I’m so happy 🙂
. I remember how he looked during the first 3 weeks of this – my friends who saw him thought he was going to die.

He just hobbled out of his litterbox again. He seems comfortable with covering a 2-foot disance, to rest outside of the litterbox. I’ll have to add 2 more puppy pads to the area. I don’t want to put him back in a diaper, but I don’t either want him peeing on the carpet. He still pees wherever he happens to be sitting.

[vanessa]

Still doing good. I go back and forth between diaper and no diaper. When he gets mobile and strolls across the bedroom, I diaper him. When he stays on the pee pads, I don’t diaper him. Lately the base of his tail has been getting wet in his diaper. So I’m going to put pee pads under the blanket that is on the floor in Guin and Lancelot’s half of the rabbit room. (Morgana and Avalon have the other half of that room, and Guin and Lancelot also have access to the back half of the house including my bedroom, through the flap in the screen door). If I put him in the rabbit room with pee pads everywhere, then I don’t have to diaper him. I left his diaper off this morning, but I cordoned off a small area for him in my room. While he was so sick, I preferred to have him in my room so I could keep a close eye on him through the night. Moving him back to the rabbit room will give him more space to move around without a diaper. I don’t believe he is capable of using the flap in the door at the moment. One morning I woke up and he had left my room and was asleep on the hallway runner, and had peed on it. So… I’m looking forward to giving him space to move without the diaper.
Guin likes to overnight in the rabbit room, and comes running and binkying into my bedroom when I wake up. I find that whichever room he is in – my room or the rabbit room, Guin spends 75% of her time with him.
The flap in the door involves stepping through it, over the 2×2 base. I haven’t seen him step over anything yet. I tried placing 2×2 pieces of wood on the ground for him to walk over to get his treats. But he refused. I’ll try a different treat.
He sure is messy right now. I cut his litter box down so he can step out of it instead of having the 6-inch lip. But he can’t lift his hind legs, so he drags hay out with him. Hay, bedding pellets, poops, you name it. Messy messy.
His mood is back to normal. Him and Guin are super uber cuddly with eachother, and jostle for who gets to shove their head under the other one’s chin. It’s so cute.

[vanessa]

I have an appointment for him on Monday, with a different vet, for a second opinion. His left side is improving faster than his right side – so instead of sitting squarely while he was equally weak, he now leans over to the right, and pees on his right leg. So the urine quandary is – with a diaper, his tail gets wet – more often than not. Without a diaper, he pees on his right leg. He got 2 baths yesterday, and needs another one today. I’ll combine it with a bath-tub swim, and get some pictures. the vet I normally take the rabbits to is closer and less expensive, but I think this other vet handles the complicated cases with more detail.

[vanessa]

Sick bay… This is part of Guin/Lancelot’s half of the bunny room. I put pee pads on the floor and towls. I rotate towls and fleece. THe ramp above the litter box goes to a second story condo that only Guin has used. There’s another ramp at the back going to another litterbox, and a sand box in the corner. Lancelot doesnt’ use any of the ramps, or the sand box. I cordoned the area off with 4×4 wood, so Guin can get in, but Lancelot can’t get out. He cant climb over a 4×4. I only cordoned it off since I don’t have pee pads/towels over the whole floor. Once I’ve done tat, I’ll remove the obstacles. 1 little Lancelot, 1 big Guinivere, and 2 stuffies 🙂

[Benthebunny]

Glad he is doing a bit better. he will get through this. you have my support

[vanessa]

Lancelot says thank you to Ben the Bunny 🙂

[jerseygirl]

Its so great seeing Guin back with him. This will help with his journey. He’s really made steady improvements. It seems to take so long though doesn’t it?
Your care of him is fantastic.

Im assuming he has finished on the panacur now? It seems well passed a month since he started on that.
Regarding the urine on his right hind leg, do you think getting him a sanitary shave worth while?

If his mobility issues are caused by EC, it’s tricky with the urine because thats how the spores are shed. So they can reinfect themselves. But it really only happens in certain timeframes of the infection cycle. Discerning those days is what is tricky. I think the diapering & puppy pads has probably helped a lot in his not reinfecting himself. Lets hope!

Good luck at the vet!

[vanessa]

Thanks. He actually made even more improvement since calling to make the vet appointment. He hasn’t wet himself once! His recovery seems to go in waves. I haven’t diapered him this weekend, since everytime I check in on him, he is sitting/lying square. If I see him lying/leaning to his right side, I go in and pet him, which makes him sit square again. So he has kept dry this weekend. The reinfecting thing is scary. He finished 28 days of panacur. I gave Guin 9 days. End of the year I’m giving all 4 bunnies 9 days. I’ve also noticed that his pee on the puppy pads outside the litterbox is moving to a smaller area. (2 pee pads vs all the pee pads). I’ve been cutting his hair all this time. Everytime I change his diaper, I have been snipping away. It took me a while, but I did get it all the way down to his skin. Not as good as a shave, but enough that I can dry him after a bath. His thick silky hair makes it difficult to dry him. I had asked the other vet for a shave, but he was going away for 10 days. So I’ll ask this other vet on Monday. is hair has all grown back now. He sits really still for grooming. I put him on my lap and move him from side to side, and on his back. The longest I’ve taken to cut his hair, is an hour and a half. He was really good. People say that rabbits don’t like being on their backs and freeze in fear, and I would agree about my other three. But Lancelot is different. On his back, his uncomfortable, but he lies still. On his side, even with just a slight angle, he is comfortable, and goes to sleep. He is fearless. You can tell by their eyeballs, if they are still out of fear. Lancelot isn’t afraid on his back. He doesn’t particularly like it, but he tolerates it enough to accepting it and falling asleep. He has spent many long car rides sleeping on my lap.

[vanessa]

Back from the vet.His bladder was veeeeery full. When she pressed on it, he did his 4-ft pee spray. She said his bladder shouldn’t have been that full, and she thinks his pee spray is a nerve reaction to an overflow. So I need to express his bladder a few times a day, so it doesnt’ get that full. His pee was quite smelly, and it doesn’t normally smell, so he is on baytril for a uti. She said that when the pee hangs out in the bladder for longer than it should, it coudl cause a uti. Agreed. He is also on another round of panacur. She cleaned some gunk out of his ears, and said I shodul go back to feeding him critical care. He used to weigh 5.5lb. When he got sick, he dropped to 4lb, and hasn’t picked up weight. So 6 Tbsp critical care powder a day. I tried offering it to him as a porridge, but he wasn’t interested – so I broke out the syringe.
I have always figured he is deaf, since he doens’t react to sounds. ANd I figured his eyesight wasnt’ too good either. He reacts to light and shadows, large shapes like people entering a room, but can’t find his food without sniffing it. He’ll move his face right past it untill his nose finds it. The other rabbits snatch it up upon first sight. The vet said noticed scar tissue on his eyes (he had corneal ulcers when his fitst owners turned him over to the animal shelter). He has cataracts (suspected from the EC), and didn’t react when she moved her hands around his eyes.
She cautions against hydrotherapy for fear of pneumonia.
So I’m glad I brought him over there, and he’ll be back a week from today for a checkup.
She did remind me that not all bunnies make a full recovery. He might, or might not get his bladder control back, same with his back leg mobility. I’m not ready to accept that, and I still need to be able to recognize the care he needs, such as expressing his bladder and preventing a uti.

[vanessa]

Doing really well. Yesterday he went into one of the other litterboxes that isn’t cut down to size for him. It does have a ramp, but at the top of the ramp is a 6 or 7 inch drop down into the litterbox. He did great. I saw him go up the ramp and hop into the litterbox. Today I saw him hop over the side, not even using the ramp. I haven’t seen him hop out. I was sooo happy to see that. He still has no bladder control. I notice more and more, that his eyesight has deteriorated. He can’t see what is right infront of him. He can’t see his food, treats, water, he sniffs to find it all.
He had liquid poop yesterday. I assume from the baytril. Not just squishy cecum poop, but actual liquid poop. I put benebac in his water, and today his poops looked good again. I am seeing him eat his cecum poops more and more. The vet had said that I should consider syringe-feeding him his cecum poops. Thank goodness he is eating about half of them, so I dont’ feel the need to syringe feed that stuff.
Monday he has a follow up visit.
I doubled his floor area. I got some human bed pads, washable, added another row of puppy pee pads, and put the human bed pads on top of the pee pads. I change the pads twice a day. So I’ll see how much easier/cheaper it is to wash 4 bed pads a day, vice throwing away 16 puppy pee pads a day. All in all, he is doing great. I am so exited at his improvement.

[vanessa]

Had a follow up visit yesterday. The vet stained his eyes to see if the “divets” were old or new. When I adopted him, he had been treated by the shelter for corneal ulcers. The divets were old, so nothing new for his eyes. His UTI has cleared up, hair on his face is growing back (after falling out from his goopy eye), and he is better hydrated this week. I’v been putting a small amount of apple or white grape juice in his water to get him to drink more. Next week we’ll do blood work to check on his platelets, due to the second course of fenbendazole. Although I’ve been syringe feeding him critical care, he only picked up 20 grams this week. I was giving him 3 table spoons a day. I need to be giving him 6 table spoons a day, I just haven’t found the time. This week I need to work more at that. Still pees everywhere, still hops into the litterbox with the 6-inch lip, doesn’t hop out, but that is great improvement. He can scratch his left ear with his left rear foot, and can use both front paws to clean his eyes. That’s progress. The vet cleaned his right ear again. It was so ticklish for him, he kept trying to scratch at it while she was cleaning, but his right rear foot can’t reach his ear yet. He could get as far as his chin. It was funny to watch him try to reach it while she was cleaning.

[vanessa]

He hopped out of his litterbox last night 🙂 Actually, I had 2 boxes right next to each other. He hopped over the lip, from one into the other. My profile pic has him and Guin in a litterbox, so you can see the size of the lip. Today is his last day of baytril. Still on the second course of fenbendazole. I think the only symptoms he has left are – incontinence, and weakness of his hind limbs. He can walk and hop and get in and out of the litterboxes, which is great. He hasn’t attempted to use the bunny flap to go out of the bunny room and into my room. But Wow – what improvement! I do think his vision has gotten worse. I still have trouble expressing his bladder. I just can’t seem to get it right anymore. The vet does it easily. So I find that when I feed him 2 and a half big syringes (35ml per syringe), he is full, and his belly presses on his bladder and he pees once I have put him back down on the floor. But still no conscious recognition of his need to pee, and use of the litterbox for that express purpose. Still, I think that after Monday’s followup and bloodwork, I’ll probably not have much more to say – except that I am SUUUUUPER happy that he made it, and didn’t have to be euthanized like Merlin. My first bunny.

[jerseygirl]

That’s great!
Regarding his bladder, do you think he could have some sludge?

[vanessa]

I don’t think so at the moment. Guin is the only one who has shown chalky pee. I’m sure sludge could build up though, since he isn’t peeing normally. I do need keep that in mind as far as expressing his bladder to get any buildup out. He does drink a lot of water. Always has. I like to think that helps. He had an ultrasound 2 months ago. So I know that on that day, he had no sludge. Thanks for reminding me. His inactivity and inability to purposely pee, puts him at risk of developing sludge.

[vanessa]

His blood work came back good. The vet wants to see him one more time. He still has the bladder issues, and this week I’ve been really busy and not home much, so I didn’t express his bladder every day. He peed on his right leg yesterday and this morning. So it’s a matter of making this a routine, not just an interim measure. I need time every evening to express his bladder, and bath him if I need to. I also want to get one of those otoscopes that the vet uses to see in his ear. They are inexpensive on Amazon. His right side is weaker so he can’t clean his right ear, and he shakes his head when the wax builds up. I’m not good at cleaning his ears…

[vanessa]

OK – I finally figured out how to express his bladder properly. I’m very happy about that.

[vanessa]

More tiny improvements 
He also seems to be concentrating his peeing efforts in a general area of about a third of the floor space. There are a few spots elsewhere here and there, but definitely a concentration. There used to be no difference in where he peed. This could be coincidental – it could just mean he has changed his typical lounging spot to a concentrated area. But lately, he has been going up his shallow ramp to pee and poop on the ramp (weird – it leads to a large litterbox), and then he comes back down. That is intentional – not just an overflow response. So although he still does have overflow, he is also regaining some of the nerve responses 
I solved the issue of him not spending enough time with Guin, by manipulating the litterbox setup. They had 4 large litterboxes in that one room, and one in my room, thanks to Guin. Now they have 1 large, 1 medium, and 1 small. The new arrangement has prompted Lancelot to spend more time outside the litterbox, which means him and Guin are able to snuggle all day, and he is not lying in his pee. Good for both of them.

[vanessa]

Well, EC comes and goes. Lancelot has been off this week.

Not EC, but he had diarrhea a few days ago, fo 3 days. When I saw it, it wasn’t the same as mushy nightpoops. It was very liquid. Panic at the disco! But then I realised it was only once a day, at night time. So it couldn’t have been from his intestines, it had to be from his cecum. Liquid night-poops. Then I remembered that he had eaten a blackberry I dropped. Dark fruits mess up his belly. So I started the benebac dose of 1tsp on day 1, 3, 5, 7, 14, etc. By day 3, the liquid poop had stopped. But his enthusiasm for food is not what it was last week. He hasn’t pooped much either, so I started feedint him critical care this evening.

Back to the EC. For the last few days he has been sitting with his back to the world. I thought it could be related to the liquid poop. Today I realized his right hind leg was sitting too far forward again. Weak hind limb. And his head was nodding off while he was sitting resting. That is something I’ve only read about once as an EC symptom. At first I jsut thought it was really cute, since none of my other bunnies do that. So… ivermectin and fenbendazole.

He doesn’t really pee on himself anymore, but he does sit in his pee. In the litterbox it’s not that bad because he is on a layer of hay so the pee drains to the wood pellets. On the pee pads, when he sits in the pee puddle, even though the pad soaks it up, it still soaks into his feet. He needs a foot bath about every weekend.

Poor little guy. Sometimes I remember the days when he felt well enough to run around my feet and buzz.

[BunnyFriends]

Oh Lancelot…. I hope he feels better soon. Just remember one day he will be back at your feet buzzing happily. 

[vanessa]

Since Lancelot got sick, he has not eaten any hay. I give him oxbow hay cookies, and I still sometimes syringe feed him critical care. But other than that – no hay. And the cookies and critical care aren’t really enouigh to wear down his teeth. (I give him probiotics regularly, since his belly isn’t getting the full benefit of hay). While he was eating hay, I had his teeth filed twice a year. Now that he is not eating hay – I need to have them filed 4 times a year. I took him for his checkup on Monday, and the vet normally sais to bring him in whenever, and I then schedule his filing for the following month. This time, the vet said to bring him in the same week. Poor little guy. When I first adopted him, he was getting over stasis, malnutrition, corneal ulcer, and serious dental issues. So it took about a month or two for him to start eating hay. He ate orchard hay, and then timothy. So I’ll get orchard hay again – and see if I can convince him…

[jerseygirl]

Oh wow, he certainly has had some battles hasn’t he! I hope he takes to eating hay again, at least one less worry for you. Will he eat fresh grass at all? That can help with the teeth just as much. You just have to take care where you get it from.
What about readigrass?

A few weeks ago I had my friends rabbit with me that had a relapse of head tilt. With his loss of balance and incontinence, I thought of you & Lancelot often! I only had him for 2 weeks and it was tiring. You’ve been at it much longer! He also went off hay unfortuntely. He mostly ate foraged greens and others brought from the store.

[vanessa]

Lancelot is back on Baytril. He has an inner ear infection. I noticed his eyes were moving horizntally, and his head is unsteady. He is sitting with his back to the world 🙁 Tonight he wouldn’t take his banana-baytril. I’ll give him an hour or so, try again, and if he still won’t take it, I’ll syringe-feed him his meds. I have vacation comming up so I’m getting apprehensive. I pay a teenager who lives up the road from me to take care of my little zoo when I’m away. I’m going to try white grapes, apple, or some other light colored fruit that he can’t resist, so while I”m on vacation, I can have his medicated fruit bites prepped and frozen. I looked up freezing baytril and it will be fine. That way – he can still get his meds while I’m away. I feel bad for him and Guinivere. He hasn’t been 100% since the July E.C., and the worse he feels, the less atention he pays to Guin. His behavior is markedly different from my other buns. Before the EC, he was active, used his ramp and second story, he was all over the place. Stormed my feet for attention and buzzed at me. Now he is not nearly that mobile, no second story ramps, no rushing at my ankles, can’t see his food, I just feel bad for him. When he is feeling alright, him and Guin are still as snuggly as ever. And except for this evening, he is still enthusiastic about his food. Sometimes I think about what I woudl do if he passed away, or if I had him euthenized. I would be back to trying a trio with Guin, Avalon, and Morgana.

[jerseygirl]

Sorry to hear of this setback. I hope you’ll see a quick improvement. {{{Lancelot!}}}
Is he back on anti inflamms?

[vanessa]

Yes he is. I was hesitant because last time he stopped eating after the metacam. But maybe that was just coincidental. He is back on Metacam again, still eating, and today he felt better than yesterday. More enthusiasm for his food, and his head seemed less unsteady. I did notice he is walking in circles again.

He can’t get to his veggies if I just put them down on the salad plate. I need to pick him up and put him next to his plate. Since he can find his litter boxes that are stationary, I think I need to keep the water bowl and salad bowl at a fixed location so he knows where they are. Watching how he moves around the room with his poor eyesight – he can make a bee-line for his litter box. But if I move an obstacle in his path (like I did accidentally while changing the litter box), he stops at the obstacle and takes a while to find his way around.

I tried green grapes today. He loves the grapes. So I’ll blend up 1 grape per day I’m on vacation, then divide the slush up into am/pm amounts, put his baytril in each dose of grape slushy, and freeze the prepped doses. I’ll also show the girl who takes care of my animals how to syringe feed the medicine if he won’t eat the grape.

It’s been a few weeks since he has had urine scald. That’s good news. He doesn’t pee on hsi legs anymore, and sits in his pee less often. I still see him go to the litterbox, pee, and then come back out. So I know he has some awareness of his bladder and bowl. Although there is still pee/poop in a few spots on the pee pads. The fleece blanket gets peed on because Guin likes to pee on soft things. But 3 weeks with no urine scald is really good.

[vanessa]

http://www.rabbit.org/health/tilt.html

I found this article interesting. Especially where it talks about the difference between inner ear, and brain stem infection.

[vanessa]

Nice improvement 🙂 I didn’t see any darting eyes or waving head today. His postureis better, no more sitting with his back to the world, and he is snuggling Guin again. I know it sounds really obvious – but to see it is different. Whole body wellness makes a difference. Medicine can’t do it alone. I gave him digestive supplements from sherwood forest with vitamin B. A sluggish digestive system will not help the animal’s immune system. So helping the gut, would help the immune system. EC treatment relies heavily on the animals own immune system. His metacam is finished, but he still has a few weeks of baytril left, and looking good 🙂 He still doesn’t walk strait, stumbles in semi-circles which I think is a combination of infection, weak muscles, and blindness. But I’m glad to see him feeling better.

[jerseygirl]

Oh this is great! That’s what we like to read – a fast turn around. You must be relieved!
I absolutely agree on your view on gut health. It’s true for us too really, isn’t it.

It’s been a few weeks since he has had urine scald. That’s good news. He doesn’t pee on hsi legs anymore, and sits in his pee less often. I still see him go to the litterbox, pee, and then come back out. So I know he has some awareness of his bladder and bowl. Although there is still pee/poop in a few spots on the pee pads. The fleece blanket gets peed on because Guin likes to pee on soft things. But 3 weeks with no urine scald is really good.

That is really, really good news! If the bladder issue was related to EC, then this is a great result as I believe when kidneys are affected, it is difficult to gain improvement in urinary issues. But, dont quote me… haha.

[vanessa]

I am very relieved, especialy since I’m going on vacation soon. I watch him pee everytime I have the chance. He definitley uses the litter box on purpose, but there is still pee on just about every pee pad, especially around the salad bowl. So this evening I moved his salad bowl to the edge of the litterbox so he has to be in the litter box to use it. I suspect that by now, he pees while he is eating salad – knowing he isn’t in his litter box, but still might have some difficulty with his bladder control/sensory system. I read that with EC, they lose the ability to know where their feet/legs are. So if I start putting his salad at the litter box edge, then that might help to retrain him to use the litterbox more of the time. Today he was feeling really good. He was snuggled up in the cardboard box with Guin – the first time I’ve seen him in there ever. Normally she doesn’t allow him in, so he stopped trying a long time ago. Lately he has been snuggling her from the entrance to the box. I had bought him and new watering system that holds more water, but I put it under the ramp so the birds aren’t tempted to bath and mess in it. I put him at the bowl so he would know where it is, but he kept going back to the old watering spot. So I moved the bowl back to the old spot, and I’ll move it one inch a day – untill it is under the ramp.
The vet said his kidneys are good – but I don’t know how you can tell that from a urinalysis. Although I do think is kidneys are fine, because he doesn’t show symptoms of kidney failure. I think his urinary issues are due to nerve damage from the EC – and that doesn’t necessarily improve either. Whichever it is – nerve or kidney – urinary problems from EC are slow to no-go in prognosis. For the nerve damage – I am trying him on Gammalinolenic Acid. I think Ive mentioned this before. It was tested on rabbits with caustic damage to their corneas. Their isn’t a known drawback from using GLA. I give him 0.5ml a day, so he doesn’t get too much oil, but gets about 400mg of GLA in the borage oil. One of the effects of GLA is – it promotes hair growth. He was already a hairy little bugger to start with… The two main sources of GLA are borage oil and primrose oil. Primrose is bad for bunnies, borage is good. I do suspect though that I should have tried it a lot earlier, while the damage was taking place. By now, the scar tissue would heal slower.

[vanessa]

Getting nervous for my vacation. The young girl who takes care of my animals came over today so I could show her what’s what. I showed her how to pick him up and put him next to his salad plate, how to hold him on his back and inspect him for urine scald (he had pee on his legs today). I’m making up exact baggies of bedding pellets and bedding hay for each litter box, and I left her the vet’s number. I know which poops are his and which are Guins, but she won’t be able to tell, so she won’t know if he is pooping or not. But I did tell her that if he does not show interest in his salad for 24 hours, or his back legs appear paralyzed, to call me and the vet.

[BunnyFriends]

How old is the girl?

[vanessa]

She is 3 and a half years old. Much more active and lively than he is. But they are super snuggly and cuddly with eachother 🙂

[vanessa]

So I got back from vacaiton and raced right into the bunny room to check on Lancelot. I gave him a butt bath coz he has some pee on his fur and his tail has urine scald, probably just from sitting in his pee. Other than that – he appears to be feeling very well. I had the young lady who was taking care of him give him 1 of the Sherwood Forest digestive support tabs with vitamin B – every day. He has about 10 days left of antibiotics, and is loking really good. The weak back legs and urine issues I suspect won’t go away. But super happy to see him feeling good.

[LittlePuffyTail]

Glad he is feeling good. Wishing him a happy and healthy 2017.

[vanessa]

Well, there always seems to be a setback. Lately his weekend baths have become very important, as he is peeing on the inside of his legs and hocks. In fact – he almost needs a bath every day now. I think I recall that while he was on GLA (Gamma Linolenic Acid in Borage oil) he was doing well. Maybe I’m looking for things that aren’t there – but I’ll resume the borage oil in his treats again. This weekend I stood and watched him as he slept lying completely on his side – something I haven’t seen him do in 7 months. But he couldn’t get up from that position, so I helped him up. This afternoon I’m going to start putting him in a diaper again, but only while I am home to change it frequently – to give his legs a break from being peed on. He pees so much during the day, I don’t want to diaper him while I’m at work. That just gets his tail wet.

I also need to figure out something for him and Guin’s food differences. I’ve been free feeding that pair, because Lancelot needed to pick up weight. He still coudl do with more weight, but is doing better in that regard. Guin on the otherhand – is a fatty! Always has been, and now that she has free food all day – nyom nyom nyom! She eats her body size in hay plus all the pellets she can cram into her piggy little face. And of course – Lancelot hasn’t eaten hay since June, and I give him hay cookies and benebac and frequent teeth filings. I want to try feeding them twice a day again, but giving Lancelot more supervised pellets than Guin. And I want to give Guin more veggies. Currently I’m giving each bunny 3 cups of veggies a day, and no fruit. I just don’t want to risk threatening Guin’s health due to obesity – while trying to increase Lancelot’s weight gain. I’ve tried all the different presentations and types of hay – not working for Lancelot. Hay in litter box, in hay feeder, different types of hay feeders, hay toys, small amounts, large amounts, fresh daily, long strands, short cut strands, you name it. The long strands get wrapped around hsi legs and he can’t free himself, so now I always cut the hay. The only one I haven’t tried is the hay with yummy things in it, which I’ve read that picky rabbits just pick out the good stuff. But that’s all that is left to try. When I first adopted him, he wasn’t eating hay, and I got him to eat orchard hay. But he hasn’t touched it since getting sick last June.

[vanessa]

Well, he’s bathed and diapered. Not happy about it.. I noticed that one of his back nails came off. THere is old dried blood at the stump, but I didn’t see any blood on the pee pads in his room, so I have no idea when or how it came off. When I put him back in the room, Guin wasn’t having any of his diaper and lunged at him, which knocked him over, so I put him in my room for the evening with a stuffie. He used to love hanging out in my room. When I’m ready to go to bed I’ll take off the diaper and put him back with Guin. It’s frustrating. I just want him to have a few hours of not peeing on his legs.

[vanessa]

His ec is back ☹️☹️. Last night he looked unsteady so i started the fenbendazole again. This morning he cant stand sit or move around. He has a dental checkup on tuesday so ill ask for more metacam. I have fenbendazole, ivermectin and smz. I wouldnt mind trying ponzuril. He needs a donut again and critical care 🙁

[LBJ10]

Oh no!

Have you talked to your vet about alternative treatments?
From MediRabbit:

Based on scientific literature or a veterinary’s experience, some alternative drugs are tried in “desperate cases”, rabbits that faced euthanasia. The tried compounds include lufenuron, pyrimethamine (used to treat toxoplasmosis in rabbits) or ponazuril combined with fenbendazole (5 days and 28 days, respectively) and have shown more or less successful.

A treatment protocol for E. cuniculi was developed based on treatment against Sarcocystis sp. or Toxoplasma sp. in horses and cats, respectively, using the anti-protozoal drug pyrimethamine (Daraprim), associated with trimethoprim-sulfa coupled with non-steroidal anti-inflammatory. The treatment is given during one month in horses and two weeks in cats. Side effects appear to be rare.

Although a previous study showed that pyrimethamine was ineffective against E. cuniculi at the studied concentrations of 5 and 20 mg/ml, the 50 mg/ml showed a 35% growth inhibition. Recent preliminary in-vivo tests have, however, shown that the growth of E. cuniculi spores was stopped in presence of therapeutic concentration of pyrimethamine (1 mg/kg).

In rabbits, pyrimethamine has been used to treat toxoplasmosis, Pneumocystis carinii, hepatic coccidial infection, etc. It has been shown that use of pyrimethamine is safe in rabbits when used at the right dosage. The anti-protozoal drug will directly attack the parasite, where it will both block the metabolism of folic acid in the parasite and increase the activity of trimethoprim-sulfa against the parasite.

This treatment is based on a protocol used in cats, in order to treat toxoplasmosis:

· Folic acid: 3 to 5 mg given twice a week to daily,

· Pyrimethamine: 0.5 mg/kg twice a day,

· Sulfadiazine (long acting sulfa drug): 30 mg/kg twice a day.

[LittlePuffyTail]

Very sorry to hear this. (((((Healing Vibes)))))

[vanessa]

Thanks, I’ll see what what happens at the vets on Tuesday. I’ll see if he is willing to try something off-label. I was out of town this weekend so I took him with. He is in a little cat bed on my lap in the truck, with his stuffy. Stuffy is on the right… He is such a good passenger – not at all phased by the car ride. I put him back on Sherwood Forest Digestive tabs for the vitamin b. He didn’t drink much water this weekend, so I’ve been syringe feeding him water. He is eating though, and I’m giving him all the critical care hay cookies that he wants.

[vanessa]

Went to the vet today, Lancelot was feling better, and was siting up. So the vet didn’t prescribe anything for him. He keeps asking me how old he is – I get the feeling he chalks his symptoms down to old age. When I adopted him, he was adverised as 2 years old. Some of the workers at the shelter said they though the was a senior since he didn’t move around alot. Well of course he wasn’t moving around – he had just been neutered, was recovering from stasis, cornea ulcer, and malnutrition. Not a good enough reason to caegorise his age. But that doesn’t mean is isn’t old. I have no idea how old he is. So anyway – I have a tentative appointment scheduled for next week thursday to have his teeth filed. The vet said I can bring him in if I think he is ok for anesthesia. I don’t know! You tell me Mr. Vet! So that makes me a little nervous. His teeth weren’t as bad as I had expected. I guess the hay cookies have been helping out some. We are into 8 months of not eating hay. I give him hay cookies/critical care cookies so he still gets fiber, but I have his teeh checked every 3 months now, instead of every 6 months.
So I’ll keep him on the SMZ and fenbendazole, and next monday I’ll give him his second dose of ivermectin. Since he was sitting up today, which I didn’t see happen the last time so quickly, I wonder if it was more of an ear infection. I’ll think of this fenbendazole and ivermectin as his quarterly/semi-annual. I’ve read a number of different approaches to fenbendazole. Mostly I read twice a year for 9 days. Some rabbitries use 4 times a year for 9 days, and on D.Kremple’s page I read once a month for 3-5 days.
I’m still concerned about his water intake. He is eating, and I’ve upped his sherwood forest digestive tab/vitamin b supplement to 4 a day, from 1 a day. That’s the instructiosn on the package for more serious cases. But he’s not drinking nearly as much water as he usually does, and I haven’t changed anything about his greens. So I know he isn’t suddenly getting more moisture from the greens. Putting applejuice in the water is workig somewhat. This evenign I also added benebac, and I put the water in front of his face, instead of waiting for him to make his way to the water bowl. He drank a good amount. So I’ll just keep on bringing the water to him, untill I start to see the bowl being emptied overnight (his normal routine).
As long as ke improves, I’ll keep doing what I’m doing. But next time he feels sick, I’ll take him to the other vet – further away. My original appointment was to have his teeth checked, so that’s all the vet did. Even after I told him that Lancelot was looking weak and dizzy this weekend – he asked how he is doing, what I’m doing, and seemed to think all was well. Didn’t check his ears, listen to his breathing, or check under his tail. I held Lancelot up and showed the vet his feet – that I keep hsi hair trimmed so I can check for urine scald on his hocks. Nothing. The other vet would have expressed his bladder,cleaned his ears, the whole nine yards. It’s a hassle to drive out that far, but I think that’s what I’ll do if he gets sick again, or doesn’t improve this time around. ,

[vanessa]

From Dana Krempels blog:
“When we treat for E. cuniculi these days, we now combine Panacur (fenbendazole) with toltrazuril sulfate. This is available as either Baycox (much cheaper, and not requiring a prescription) or Marquis (ponazuril; more expensive, and requires a prescription).”
Awesome!

[vanessa]

1 week later and he is feeling his normal self again 🙂 So hopefully no more of this for the next few months. I think he’ll be fine to have his teeth filed on Thursday. He has this new habit which is terribly cute, but also indicates weak limbs. I am aware that his limbs are weak, but I’m glad he found a comfy way to rest. Rabbits with weak limbs like to rest with their heads on something – like a rolled up towel, a stuffie – or their companion rabbit’s back! He has taken to sleeping with his head straddled over Guins back. It’s so cute. He approaches her from the side, pops his head over her spine, and goes to sleep 🙂 She likes it.

[LittlePuffyTail]

I’m glad to hear he is doing well (((Vibes for the Dental on Thursday)))))

[jerseygirl]

Posted By vanessa on 2/22/2017 1:24 PM

From Dana Krempels blog:
“When we treat for E. cuniculi these days, we now combine Panacur (fenbendazole) with toltrazuril sulfate. This is available as either Baycox (much cheaper, and not requiring a prescription) or Marquis (ponazuril; more expensive, and requires a prescription).”
Awesome!

The toltrazuril or ponazuril is something Ive suggested to members here in the past, after reading about it from Dr Krempels. However, I did watch some videos (filmed 2014) describing EC treatment and the vet presenting mentioned these 2 meds were not as promising as they had hoped. It is however, great for coccidiosis!

I have also read that Baycox (Tolt.) is very alkaline and can irritate the tissues of the throat  It needs to be watetered down or neutralised with something. Maybe the MSDS would give more indication of how it should be given?

[jerseygirl]

Posted By vanessa on 2/24/2017 2:44 PM

1 week later and he is feeling his normal self again 🙂 So hopefully no more of this for the next few months. I think he’ll be fine to have his teeth filed on Thursday. He has this new habit which is terribly cute, but also indicates weak limbs. I am aware that his limbs are weak, but I’m glad he found a comfy way to rest. Rabbits with weak limbs like to rest with their heads on something – like a rolled up towel, a stuffie – or their companion rabbit’s back! He has taken to sleeping with his head straddled over Guins back. It’s so cute. He approaches her from the side, pops his head over her spine, and goes to sleep 🙂 She likes it.

Aw lovely!  Im happy he seems better and has his Guin.  I read something like that on disabled rabbit page, how they like to lie across  or against towels/stuffies/companions as props. : )

[vanessa]

Thanks Jerseygirl. I did get a bottle of the Baycox, but I don’t plan on giving it to him unless he relapses. I’ll do some more research on it too. I didn’t know it was so alkaline. I’ll have to read up on interactions to see what is safe to use to get it closer to a neutral ph. For $50, I’ll hold onto it untill it expires and read up so I have more info if he relapses again. But I won’t replace the fenbendazole.

[jerseygirl]

Does it indicate if it’s meant to be added to water supply? Ive only seen it here marketed for stock animals. Edited:Though I did one time see (online) a small bottle of a solution for birds! So maybe that was a different preparation?

What I had read was the med is dissolved into an alkaline solution so it is then more water soluble. As it was designed to be added to waterers.

[vanessa]

OK wow… it is 11.4 on the ph scale and should either be diluted in water, or administered via a nasogastric tube!

[jerseygirl]

[vanessa]

I can’t even imagine how a nasogastric tube makes sense. A horse/rabbit’s belly doesn’t have the acid content that ours does. 11.4 is enough to burn skin and induce immediate vomiting. Properly diluted it aparently has a great safety record.

[Q8bunny]

Sending (((vibes))) for your darling boy so he won’t need the Baycox

[vanessa]

Thank you, if his trend continues, he should be good for the next few months before I start to worry about him again.

[Q8bunny]

Buns…

[vanessa]

So… after a lot of reading, I have decided to go ahead and give Lancelot 5 days of toltrazuril. He seems to benefit from the more frequent doses of fenbendazole. Despite older articles of uncertainty over the effectiveness of ponazuril, there are later discussions by Dana Kremples supporting it. Contradictory information, but the safety of ponazuril/toltrazuril is not in question. That’s at least good. So since fenbendazole suppresses EC but does not kill it, and ponazuril/toltrazuril actually kill coccidia (although EC is not a coccidia), I’m going to go ahead and use it. Since the EC can still cause damage by the inflammation caused, in between fenbendazole treatments, I feel strongly about wanting to reduce the damage. Lancelot has plenty of damage already. I am not comfortable putting him on long term fenbendazole. I have been doing 5 days every month or two. This month I’ll add 5 days of toltrazuril. This is what I get from Dana Kremples discussions. Since he started sitting with his back to the worldl again last night, I feel it is time to give this a try.

On a side note – in a different thread, the topic of fungal skin infections came up, and the two vets that I take Lancelot to, both brushed off his scaly dry scabby flaky ears. None of my household or other pets have caught anything from his scabby ears, and I’d rather not try the fungal topicals without discussing the medicine interactions with a vet, so for the moment, while he is on FenB/TolT, I’m using ACV on his ears. I’v read uncertainty about the effective ness of ACV, but I’ve also seen the effectiveness first hand. So… at his net appointment I’ll ask the vet to take a serious look at it, but I can also refresh the batteries in my UV light and do a light skin scraping and look for the glow. Periodically I turn off the lights and check my carpets for animal pee using the UV light… Organic material sure glows…

[jerseygirl]

Could the flakey ears be a result of his ability to clean them regularly, if he’s been wobbly? Or does Guin do that for him? Or has she stopped doing that for him if she did before?

[vanessa]

Guin does a good job of keeping his ears and fur groomed. I took a pic, ill post it this morning.

[vanessa]

So this is what the outside of his ears look like. pink skin, hair loss, creamy scabs, and a black scab that has been there for 6 months. The creamy/flaky scabs have been there since I adopted him. The black scabs come and go, but they stay a long time. It’s on the outside of his ears. 

[vanessa]

Lancelot has been feeling blah this week. When I get home from work it’s like I have to help him wake up. He is usually lying on his side, squeaking, unable to get up. Pee and poop all around him. Makes me so sad 🙁 Once I have him sitting, he is shaking his ears, and needs to be propped up with his stuffy. After an hour or so, he can hold himself up without his prop. His appetite has decreased, he struggles to get from A to B. After he has woken up and I come back into the room, he tries to make a dash to find me, but he can’t plot a strait course, veers off and staggers. He is scanning, and his head nods off. So he is back on 6 weeks of baytril, with a week of metacam. He seems to feel better after each dose of metacam. I’m bringing his vitamin B supplement back up to 4 times a day instead of once a day, and adding benebac to his water once a week. He was feeling so much better after the last period of fenbendazole/toltrazuril. The vet doesn’t want to keep giving him fenbendazole. I might still, but I had wanted to wait until the 1st of each month to do a monthly 5-day treatment. Not sure if I should wait, or give him 28 days, which would take him up to 3rd week of April, and then wait till Beginning June to do the once a month treatments. Bear in mind – at this point, the fenbendazole is on me – not the vet. P.S. I’m not asking for medical advice, just thinking outloud.

[Q8bunny]

(((((((((Lancelot)))))))))

[Luna]

I hope the additional vitamin B and benebac helps him feel better! ((((Lancelot))))

[vanessa]

Well, in true fashion, he is getting a little worse. I know I need to wait for the 28 days before reasessing. He is showing the horizontal eye movement again. Not feeling well, eats but not as much, sleeps all day, no more energy, difficulty in moving, can’t keep a strait line, and needs to be propped up to sleep/rest. He settles on his food, half in his veggie bowl, it can’t be comfortable. Either it’s just too difficult to move off, or he has little idea of where his feet are, which is something I read about the paresis effects of EC. After I’ve given them veggies, I check in every few minutes to see if I need to move him off the veggies so he doens’t pee on them. He is so good about being handled. I pick up his front quarters and put his stuffy under his chest, and arrange his face on it. Or I lift him and place his head/neck over Guin’s back. They are both really good about letting me do that.
I figured I should find a juice that he likes with less sugar than apple juice. It has 40g sugar in an 11.5oz bottle, which is about 3.5g per ounce. I saw V8 juice listed in a rabbit first aid kit example, and tried the V8 Healthy Greens. I drink it myself. I has about 11g per 8oz if I recall correctly, which is a third of the sugar per oz as apple juice. And he sure does like it, so that’s what I put in his water now. I don’t want to spoil him, but he hasn’t been drinking as much water lately, and I need him to stay hydrated.

[vanessa]

He has been peeing on his legs every day now. I’m tempted to diaper him and put him in my room on the evenings, and bring Guin with. She tries to tear off the diaper in the bunny room, but I haven’t seen her try that in my room. I don’t want to diper him while I’m at work, because that’s just too long to be in a wet diaper. But if I do it in the evenings, I can spare him 12 hours of peeing on his legs. I want to look at my calendar and when when I can get out to that farther vet again. Sometimes it’s difficult to wait the 28 days.

[vanessa]

So I had Lancelot in my room last night with a diaper on. He wasn’t happy about wearing the diaper, or being separated from Guin. I gave him his favorite blankets, fleece, and stuffy. Since I am so congested and coughing at the moment – it was easy to get up a few times during the night to change his diaper. I was glad that he got a night’s break from peeing on his legs. This morning I put him back with Guin, and took the diaper off. This evening I want to bring Guin into my room with him – to watch her and make sure she isn’t going to rip off his diaper. She gets quite persistent, and he can’t hold himself upright while she is tearing away at the diaper. I hope she only gets that naughty in her room, and not in mine. She won’t leave the bunny room unless he walks out ahead of her, but he manage that navigation anymore, so I’ll pick her up. (Their way out the room – is through the bunny flap, which he can no longer see, nor coordinate his body through).

[Luna]

If she tries to tear off his diaper, do you have a few spare socks? Maybe you could cut off the toes and put them over Lancelot’s hind legs (like human leggings). The socks might be less of a target for Guin to chew on, and they would help keep the pee off Lancelot’s legs at least for a little while. Luna sends vibes! ((((Lancelot))))

[vanessa]

Ooh that’s a good idea!
I don’t think socks would keep the pee off him, they would just hold it against him, but that would be a good “diaper cover”. I’m going to try rubbing a sock on them both so it gets their scent, and put it over the diaper like one of those waterproof baby diaper covers.
Thanks!

[vanessa]

I have an appointment to take him to a different vet tomorrow. Farther away, but they are quite thorough. I want to get him on chloramphenicol. I didn’t have time to do the sock thing last night, but I did bring Guin into my room this morning and watched them for about half an hour. She paid some attention to the diaper, but for the most part was enthralled at being in my room again. So I’ll stop by during lunch to change his diaper and check on the two of them. I want them together so they don’t get lonely, although they both have stuffies, and so she can keep his face clean.
I dont’ really see much improvement. His balance is still off, moves with difficulty, he slouches onto his weak side, pees on his legs, scans, bobs his head, still has eye movement, and his appetite hasn’t gotten better. He drinks all his V-8 veggie water, which is good. But he doesn’t finish his food – whether it is pellets, hay cookies, veggies, or compressed hay cubes.
The peeing on the legs is disturbing. I need to keep them dry. In order for the diaper to keep him dry, I need to change it every few hours. That means waking up at night, and going home during the day. Difficult with a full time job.
Venting…I have these other 2 disabled birds that I’m also taking care of… I spend an hour each day creating/rearranging their leg bands. One bird is showing improvement, the other gets out of his leg band within an hour of me putting it on. So there is no way he can improve, if he keeps getting out of the leg bands. The two birds each have stunted tail feathers, stunted right wing, dislocated right hip, and splayed legs. (The leg bands can only fix the splay). I spend so much time on their leg bands… This evening I’ll swap my time around, and make Lancelot’s diaper sock first, then do their leg bands. Although I’m almost at the point of not worrying about the younger chick’s leg band since the bird doesn’t stay in it. I just hope the bird’s body can figure out a way to move and get around.

[vanessa]

I just stopped by my house to change his diaper. It was off – and he was on the other side of the room… So Guin took it off. I put her back in the bunny room. This weekend I’ll have to check the carpet with a UV light and possibly break out the carpet cleaner…
when I take him to the vet tomorrow, I’m going to tell her that I want him on chloramphenicol, and that I would like an x-ray to check for arthritis. The other vet and I have discussed the possibility of arthritis, but he didn’t X-ray. I want to know for sure. If he does have arthritis, I would like a longer term pain plan. Watching him, if he could walk easier, and stand square, he wouldn’t be peeing on his legs. He would still be peeing everywhere… but at least not on himself.

[vanessa]

Grrr… I had to rechedule to Wednesday… It is difficult keeping him clean. I did make a sock to go over his diaper, and Guin left it alone. But he was very unhapy about the sock, and I don’t want to stress him out. His poops get all smashed inside the diaper, so I still need to bath him. And depending on the poops, with a diaper, I often need to clean him after every diaper change. I’ve tried using corn starch. It’s difficult to get out of his fur. At the moment he is back in his room without a diaper. I think I’ll try more fleece… He has humab bed pads that doa good job f saving the carpets, but they pool liquid. On top (and under) the human pee pads are puppy pee pads, and I change the top layer daily. But puppy pee pads also hold a certain amount of surface liquid. Enough that if he sits in his pee, he gets soaked. And that is one of the big poblems he is having at the moment. I do have a lot of fleece… I was only giving him one piece, because Guin had taken to peeing on it and it was lot to launder an entire room of fleece. But I’ll give it a try again. The fleece lets liquid through quite nicely.

[vanessa]

I checked his ears with a uv light. Glowing where the scabby patches are. I’ll ask the vet about that too on wednesday. Sometimes I get jealous when I hear of all the different meds you bunny hoomans get prescribed for your bunnies. Lancelot needs better treatment and all I’v been able to get is smz, baytril, and the occasional metacam. Anything else – is up to me. I could even buy chloramphenicol on my own, but I’d rather get it through a vet.

I found a sock solution that works. Not to stressful for him, and I brought him and Guin into my room so he doesn’t have access to his litterbox. She has a box in my room with higher sides than he can get into. I want to keep his skin off hay for a week or so, since he has urine scald on a few areas of his feet/legs. During the weekend, it’s not too difficult keeping I him clean. It’s the week days that I dread. I need to be able to change the diaper no later than every 3 hours. That with a little baby powder, and expressing his bladder every time I change the diaper, has worked well today. The last time he was sick, I had difficulty expressing his bladder. Today it went suprisingly easy.

[vanessa]

Well, I can only have Guin visit Lancelot while I’m in he room. He is too wobbly. He falls over too easily, and he can’t get up on his own. He has stopped eating his pellets, compressed hay cubes critical, and care cookies. He doesn’t finish his veggies, which is the only thing he is eating now, and he only drinks water that is flavored with V8 veggie juice. So I started syringe feeding him this morning. I have to say – he really likes the Sherwood SARx. It has a liquorice scent to it, and he gobbled down 45ml no problem. I ordered more critical care, SARx, and SARx plus, which is for weight gain. I’ll use all 3 with him. I like the nutrient profile of critical care, but I like the texture, palatibility, and lack of fillers – of the SARx. The SARz instructions include more water in the mix, whih makes it easier to feed, and I suspect would also get more fluid into the bunny if the owner doesn’t add extra water to the critical care forumla. I always add extra water to the critical care, because it thickens too quickly and then I can’t suck it up into the syringe.
I suspect that I have appointments on Tuesday and Wednesday for myself – I’m having a baby in June :-). But that’ll mean rescheduling Lancelots vet appointment again. I’ll have to wait and check my work alander tomorrow – that’s where I schedule my life…

[Luna]

Wow you are a trooper! I can’t imagine going through everything you’ve been dealing with. I’m glad the sock thing kind of worked for a minute. Lancelot loves his cookies . Maybe if you put Guin in the room and try to give him one he might nibble on it? It must be so frustrating that you want to try different treatments and the vet(s) don’t go along with it – ie. smz and baytril don’t help, so don’t give me more smz and baytril!

[vanessa]

Thanks Luna.
Last night he actually ate half a hay cookie.
Everytime he shows some energy, I put him back with Guin, and find him lying on his side a few hours later, with pee everywhere. He falls into his water bowl (so I raised it slightly), and this morning I woke up hearing him honking while he was breathing, because he was on his side and couldn’t get up. I keep going over my notes so I don’t forget what I want to talk to the vet about. Ears, arthritis, chloramphenicol, weight gain.
I’m flying to Texas this month for my baby shower. I think I’m going to have to bring him with. I don’t want to leave him with a pet sitter in this condition. So I’ve been looking at flight tickets with airlines that take rabbits in cabins (United and Continental serve the airports I need to get to).

[vanessa]

We went to a different vet yesterday. She suggests euthenizing him. I thought she gave a thorough brief of his overall condition. But im not ready to put him to sleep. Ears: mites. She doubts the mites can be solved as long as the rest of him is ill. I agree. Mites can take advantage of a compromised immune system. Arthritis: i decided against xrays while he is still fragile. But i asked for pain meds. Ec: i opted out of the blood panel, again because he is fragile. Ear infection: she is not keen on chloramphenicol so ill continue the baytril. Pain: she agreed that we want to keep him on pain meds, so he has 0.3mg metacam for 48 hours twice a day, then 0.6mg twice a day after that.
I think this morning he was feeling a little better from the pain meds. She asked what i want his plan to be. I said i want him on pain meds, and i want to govus on weight gain. She fiesnt think ill be able to help him put his weight back on. The only positives r he eats his syringe food with enthusiasm and his poops/cecotropes r great, and i have managed to control the urine scald with frequent diaper changes and expressing his bladder.

[Luna]

. I don’t know anything about EC so I’m sorry if this is an obvious question – why doesn’t the vet think you’ll be able to put more weight on him? Also, I was looking through the past posts and during the times you said he was doing good he was on GLA and/or fenbendazole/toltrazuril. Can he try those again, or can buns only take them for a certain length of time and then they have to take a break? ((((Lancelot))))

[vanessa]

Iv read that weight loss to the point of losing muscle mass, or 10% body weight, is called Cachexia, and is difficult to recover from. She said that when she sees bunnies with this much weight loss, she doesn’t see them recover. She thinks that something that consumes his calories – could be cancer. But cancer doesn’t come and go, so I’m not sure about that. I was very sad to hear her prognosis. But I’m not ready to give up. As long as he eats with enthusiasm, I can’t let him go. And in the middle of a 28 day treatment – is too soon to make that decision. Luna you reminded me again of the GLA – so I looked for my bottle to add it to his lunch syringe, but couldn’t find it (I’ll look again this evening), so I gave him one of his medicated hay cookies which he hasn’t eaten in weeks, and he actually ate it this morning. I was so happy about that. I want to keep him on pain meds. He is currently on fenbendazole/toltrazuril, 2 weeks into the 28 day treatment. Vets don’t like to hear that I give him medicine myself. And I get it – us non-vets are not vets… we may give the wrong med, the wrong combination, the wrong dose, or wrong frequency. So they asked what dose/frequency I was using. I arrived with a piece of paper with all the symptoms written down that I had noticed, everything I’m doing to treat him, and my concerns. This vet doesn’t like fenbendazole. It has been known to cause suppression of bone marroe in long germ use, and vets prefer to do a base blood panel at the start of treatment, and a follow up panel at week 2 and week 4. A 28 day treatment is fine – from what I read, but she is more negative about it than that. Still, fenbendazole is the drug of choice for EC. Toltrazuril/Ponzuril has not been tested or approved for use in rabbits. There are conflicting reports about it’s effectiveness, but all reports show no negative side effects. They did ask where I got the medicines from, I told them fenbendazole is OTC, Ivermectin is OTC, Baytril is available for birds, and toltrazuril is available for horses. He did have a baseline blood test done in September last year, so once he is feeling stronger, I’ll take him for a blood test to check his blood count against September’s count.
Today is his second Ivermectin dose, I’ll keep up with the fenbendazole/toltrazuril till 28 days is up, go back for a follow-up, and decide at that point if 4 weeks of baytril is enough. The metacam is working really well. I stopped by the house after an appointment in town, and he was lying on his side, so I changed his diaper, propped him up, and he started eating his veggies and GLA/herbal hay cookie. He was still eating after a solid 5 minutes, so I left him and went back to work. I’ll keep up the syringe feeding and the metacam, and see how he does. I might be wrong – but I still have hope that he will gain some weight back and regain his balance. That’s what he needs, to stay out of a diaper, and get back with Guinevere.

It’s so sad to see him on his side. He makes a distressed whining sound with each breath until I pick him up, and then he snuggles into my lap and makes that purring sound.

[Luna]

I hope he gains weight too. Keep eating Lancelot! That last sentence almost made me tear up  but I’m in the office at work – I can’t cry here lol. Luna sends more vibes ((((Lancelot))))

[vanessa]

Yeah, I wanted to cry on the way home from the vet 🙁

[vanessa]

Metacam is awesome! He had 48 hours of 0.3ml, now he can get 0.6ml, twice a day. He has had 36 hours of not falling over, and is looking more relaxed. I keep a bowl full of veggies in front of his face all the time. Today, every time I checked on him, he was eating. Everytime I check, his diaper is full of poops, and his belly feels full of food. I’m still syringe feeding him at least 6Tbsp critcal care/Sherwood SARx, including his cecotropes. I’m so happy to see him feeling better.

Guin gets her feelings hurt when I have him in my room and he is feeling too sick to pay her attention, so she eventually starts to ignore him. Now that his balance seems better, I put him in the room with her, without a diaper, after expressing his bladder. I want to do this every day while I”m home, and awake. While I’m at work, I still want him in my room with a diaper on, untill I’m sure he is not falling over anymore. It’s also easier to check on him at night if he’s in my room. I put the food bowl right next to the water bowo so if he falls against one of them, I hear the metal clink against the glass, and I wake up, I also wake up when I hear him squeak.

He is still very imobile. He turns around, shuffles forward, sits up to groom his face, and props himself up on his stuffy. Hopefully he’ll be able to move around the room soon.

Since his ears have mites not fungus, I’m rubbing them with oil every second day. I noticed that since starting the metacam, his weepy eyes don’t have much fresh goop. So the incredible weepiness that ends up with half a face of fur loss that I see when he has these relapses, is due to pain.

[Luna]

If I were a bun I’d do a binky right now . Rooting for you Lancelot! 

[vanessa]

Well, not many binkies today. I guess he has good and bad days. Today he fell over twice, peed on himself, and grinded his teeth once that I noticed. And I saw marks on his skin from where Guin was nipping him for attention. So unfortunately, I can’t leave them together.
Guinevere is acting differently without him. She’s chewing the pee pads, digging them up to scratch at the carpet, and runs to her hidey box when I come into the room. Poor girl.

[Vienna Blue in France]

((((( Lancelot )))))

[vanessa]

I guess I have to admit to myself that his age plays a role in his prognosis. If the shelter I adopted him from was correct and he really is 4 years old, then he needs more of a chance to recover. But if they lied and he really is a senior, then I have to consider how long I’m going to give him to recover. I don’t want him to suffer. I don’t want to lose him either. I wish there was a definitive test to pinpoint the cause of his problems. His nails have started to turn outward – old bunny nails. His sleepiness and lack of interest in play could be attributed to age. He likes to cuddle, he loves grooming his stuffy, and snuggling up to my lap. He purrs when his head is propped up on my leg and actively gets as close as he can including lifting his paws and propping his chest on me. So he isn’t miserable all of the time. I also think about how different vets influence my perspective. The closer vet doesn’t have a whole lot to say, leading me to think he has plenty of time to recover. The farther vet says she thinks he is suffering and should be put to sleep.
I’ll look at that decision again in May. I still want to give him a chance. His shoulder blades aren’t as sunken in as they were on Thursday, and the Metacam is helping. He now has more good days than bad. So assist-feeding and pain meds – then I’ll re-evaluate in May 🙁

[Luna]

Regardless of what you decide, you’ve done a LOT to help him and he has lived a happy life with you and his dear Guin. Please keep us updated. ((((Lancelot))))

[vanessa]

Starting to perk up 🙂 he eats all his veggies and half his hay cookies. His postureandbalance are better. Last night i did not see the horizontal nystagmus. This morning he had moved a 12 inches. He had to have hopped over his donut coz i arranged a towel around him to be as high as my lap, coz that is his most comfortable chin rest height. He was out of his donut this morning, eating veggies from the other side 🙂 the first time he was in a diaper, i wasnt feeding cecotropes coz they were few and squishy. This time they are well formed and i add them (some) to his syringe feed, but wow! When i get home from work his diaper is very full of cecotropes. I dont know what volume of cecotropes is produced daily, but wow – he produces a lot. He snuggles very actively. I think ill start increasing is space so he can move around some more. The goal is still to get him back with guin – once he can move around and has picked up weight.

[Tony's Mum]

You are amazing. He is so lucky to have you. I’m so glad things are looking up <3

[vanessa]

Thanks Tony’s Mum 🙂
I thought he looked pretty good this morning. Last night I took his diaper off from getting home till going to bed. I want to start taking it off during the day while I’m at work. It’s difficult coming home during lunch to change it everyday. He doesn’t fall over that often anymore, which is what I need to avoid, otherwise he just lies there and pees on himself. I cut back on the Sherwood Forest SARx in his syringe feeding, and his cecotropes have returned to a normal volume, which is crucial for keeping the diaper dry during the day! Otherwise his pee runs off the cecotropes and down his legs, and doesn’t get absorbed into the diaper. Night time I’ll still do the diaper, coz he does most of his peeing/pooping overnight, except cecotropes which are dusk and dawn. And it’s easy for me to get up and change his diaper and go right back to sleep. I’m also going to set up a day area for him in Guin’s room, so they can see eachother again. I still can’t leave them unattended, cos she is nipping him for attention. At night time I’ll bring him back to my room for easy diaper changes.
And then there is the up-coming travel… I emailed the vet to discuss my options. I’ll pick up his metacam refill tomorrow, and see how much metacam I get. I don’t want to run out of metacam while I’m out of town.

[Luna]

That’s good that his balance is getting better . Will you be out of town long?

[vanessa]

5 days. I’v taken him on trips from 2-5 days, and on car rides up to 5 hours.

[vanessa]

4am this morning Lancelot was thumping away. The only other time he thumps is when his food bowl is empty, but I have been free feeding him for a long time. So maybe he was demanding more hay cookies, or oat groats, he did have pellets. He does try to kick off the diaper when it gets full and I’m not there, so I took it off, and put him in a fenced off area in the bunny room so he could have his old smells back. After eating some hay cookies, he calmed down.

Tuesday is 4 weeks of baytril and fenbendazole, and along with the pain meds, major improvement. Especially no more nystagmus.

I have an appointment with the closer vet on Tuesday. The other vet is an hour drive one way for an 8-day supply of metacam. I have so much else going on, I need a shorter drive. So Tuesday I’ll tell the closer vet that I suspect he is old and arthritic, I am fine with blood work and x-rays with him feeling better, but I want pain meds, and a health certificate to fly. Looking at the pros and cons, I’m taking him out of town with me. I’m not boarding him or leaving him behind. Since I suspect he is older than I was led to believe, I do think I should start watching the 3 “A”s. Attitude, Appetite, and Affection. As long as he is still enjoying cuddling with me and his stuffy, and enjoys his food, and grooms himself, I’ll keep on caring for him. If one of those goes away, I’ll have to consider euthanizing him, so that I don’t allow him to suffer. I hate thinking about it. Makes me sad. It’s just tough deciding between giving him a chance to recover, or not. And his age really plays into this.
He is happy in his room, doesn’t seem to miss Guin as long as he has his stuffy. Guin misses him.

[Luna]

For any pet, I think not knowing whether or not your pet will recover or how long it will take vs letting them pass on is the toughest. Especially since our pets can only tell us so much with what’s going on and how they are feeling. Luna is still young, but Oreo Cat is a senior and I hope I’ll be able to do what’s best for her too later on. Will Guin get to have a play date with him before you guys leave? Is Lancelot going to fly as your carry-on so that he can sit with you and not be in the cargo area? Don’t forget to pack his stuffy!

[vanessa]

Yes, yes, and hell yes! They get daily supervised dates, we will fly cabin with united (hope they r not overbooked with crew members 😉 and his stuffy goes anywhere he goes 🙂
I have a 15yr old cat. She is so active u cant tell her age.

[Luna]

Lol that’s good. United?! All I have to say is if they overbook and try to boot off an expecting mother and her bunny, then there will probably be riots accompanied by unsavory posters directed at the airline .

[DanaNM]

Glad to read he is doing better! You are such a trooper! Safe travels, hope all goes smoothly on the trip!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[vanessa]

Funny Luna 🙂 Thanks DanaNM 🙂

[vanessa]

It was a good weekend.
Thursday night and Friday were not good. Thursday he woke me up thumpng, so I put him i Guin’s room, fed him, and he calmed down. I fed him again in the mornign, and went to work. I had him in a fenced area, but the area was too big, and he was tempted to move around, which I had thought I wanted, to help him with muscle and stability. But he got too far from his food, fell over, and couldn’t get back. When I gto home from work he was hungry and I felt like crap. He needs to be able to eat throughout the day. This weekend went much better. I made him a nice comfy propped up area back in my room, so he couldnt’ get out, food and water in front of him, stuffy, soft blanket, fleece, he liked it. I figured that although he grooms himself, he can’t reach everywhere, so I used a few wetwipes to groom him. He enjoyed it. Later saturday, he started eating his pellets and compressed hay cubes. He hasn’t eaten those in weeks. I was sooo happy. At one point he knocked a hay cube into his water. I took it out and put it in a bowl – and guess what – he likes soaked hay cubes. Who knew. It turned his water into hay tea, and he drank half a bowl. He hasn’t drank water in weeks either. So today was a really good day. He turned around a few times on his fleece, and seemed really relaxed.

So new positives – a small area is best for him, he’s eating everything he ate before (although in smaller quantities), he still takes the syringe feeding well, the pain meds are awesome, he is drinking water again. He loooves his stuffy, and he loooves snuggling up to me while I’m taking care of him.

So his routine – diaper chage every 3 hours, once or twice during the night, once during the day while I’m at work. With each diaper change I offer him syringe food, express his bladder, clean his eyes with chamomile/honey tea, groom him with wetwipes, and cuddle him. When I have the time I spend an hour with him. When I get up at night, I spend half an hour with him. If I’m in a hurry, I can get it all done in 15 minutes.

Still concerned about his weight, his mobility is terrible, h can’t e unsupervised with Guin, can’t give him enough room to hop, he has to have hsi ood within reach at all times.

It’s a lot to figure out. I’m geting quicker at his routine, which makes my life easier. I picked up the pain med refil from the one vet on Friday, but it will run out while I’m out of town. Tuesday is his appointment with the closer vet – and I’ll hopefully be able to get more pain meds for him, and a certificate to travel.

All in all, looking better. 🙂

[Tony's Mum]

The poor baby. Nice discovery with the hay tea though! How is Guin coping with all this?

[vanessa]

It’s been a few weeks now, so Guin is starting to feel better. She doesn’t look as depressed as she did when she lost her first bunny pal. But I feel bad for her being separated from her second pal. Its like a loss all over again. She is still acting a little shy, but is wanting to be petter more and more. She’s more bored without him. Chewing at the linoleum and puppy pee pads, pooping everywhere, digging up the pee pads. I gate her a towel to toss around.

[Tony's Mum]

Hopefully things will get easier soon <3

[Tony's Mum]

Hopefully things will get easier soon <3

[vanessa]

Pictures of him snuggling with me before and after a diaper change 🙂

[Luna]

Hey Lancelot buddy! ((head pets)) My, he has lost a lot of weight . But that is great that he is eating his hay cubes and drinking his tea again. I hope he gets better and better so that Guin can have her friend again .

[vanessa]

Yeah – I didn’t post all the pics. In one of them, I can see the outline or the indent where the rib cage goes in and the hips begin. Even through his fur. And yet – he has picked up half a pound in the last 2 weeks.
But boy does he enjoy his snuggles. Last night he started pushing up on my hand when I pet his head 🙂 He used to do that all the time. I’m so glad he is feeling better, but I’m still convinced more and more that he is really old. His top 3 favorite activities at the moment are sleep, then groom/cuddle his stuffy or me, then eat. Things seem to be stabilizing. I’m still holding thumbs that I an get metacam from this other vet tomorrow. And maybe an x-ray to confirm/rule out arthritis, and a travel certificate. And I need to figure out his diaper situation during the day. For the next 5 weeks I’ll be working 10hour days. I come home during the day when I can to change his diaper, but I can’t do that every day. An 8-hour day is easier to manage, and expressing is bladder before I go to work makes it easier. I’m going to try critical care at evening/night, and load up on veggies during the day, to see if that makes the poopies eaiser to manage. He tries to kick off his diaper when it gets full of poop. Who wouldn’t… It gets messy. Weekends are great because it’s easier to keep him clean and dry when I’m at home.

[Tony's Mum]

How did the vet’s go?

[vanessa]

Enlightening… I’m normally really good at double checking a diagnosis, medical presciption, doseage, etc… But I just trusted this farther vet. It turns out his metacam they prescribed was 1.8mg per day. At that point he weight 1.7kg. Medirabbit sais 0.1-0.3mg/kg per 24 hours. Although I also read that that is the old dose, and that over the years, vets have increased the dose. This closer vet wants him to try 0.45mg, once a day. He weight 1.87kg today.
So that’s a difference between 1.06mg/kg and 0.24mg/kg.
Wow. What a difference. Not sure what to think. I guess I’ll see if he shows pain when I drop the dose to the new lower level.
He agreed with me tha Lancelot could be older than I was led to believe, and that he should be on pain meds and kept comfortable. And I got the certificate for him to fly. So off we go to Texas.
He was being really cute at the vets office, grooming his stuffy, the vet had all his assistants come look. He grooms a patch till it is wet, then wipes his face on it, over and over.

[vanessa]

But I did get a 60 day supply, for a 1-hour drive, which is better than an 8-day supply for a 2 hour round trip.

[Tony's Mum]

Wow that’s a hell of a difference in the dosage. Poor bunny. At least you’re sorted for your trip now.

[vanessa]

Yeah – the vet described it as a whopper of a dose and said he hopes they weren’t trying to euthanize him with Metacam. I guess I should watch for kidney signs… It’s just confusing because old doseages are low, but I keep reading that some vets prescribe high doses if they feel the rabbit needs it. I’d rather try combining Metacam with Tramadol or something else, if he needs more pain management, than giving him a dose high enough to cause kidney damage.

Guin looked really chirpy and happy yesterday and this morning. It seems she is getting used to not having him around. She and Avalon and Morgana spend a fair amount of time lounging up against the NIC fence that separates them. I’v been searching the forum to read about other people’s experience/advice/warnings of bonding a trio, and I did try it in the past, but I stopped. Watching these 3 lie next to each other, I wonder if I should try it again one of these days. The last time, I couldn’t get past Guin attacking them, and Avalon found it particularly stressful, and started chasing/nipping Morgana. I didn’t want to end up with 3 singles, so I stopped. If they continue to look good at the fence, I’ll give it another try. I might wait until I see them lick eachother through the fence. Once in a blue moon I’ll still I see Avalon put his ears at 45 degrees, and that’s what I worry about. But I won’t be doing it anytime soon – I’ll wait until I’v settled into a routine with my baby I’m expecting in June, and then if I still want to bond a trio, I’ll do 2 months of prebonding/swapping sides of the room, and take it from there.

Lancelot will stay in my room for the forseeable future.

Tomorrow is the flight to Texas. I’m very relieved that I got the certificate and more pain meds. Since he had 0.6ml last night, (1.2ml for yesterday), and his new dose is 0.3ml once a day, I’ll wait till this evening to give him his meds, and see how he is feeling.

[vanessa]

I noticed last night that after 4 weeks of fenbendazole/ponazuril, his front right leg is weak, just like it was the first time he got sick 🙁 Need to decide if I’m going to extend his fenbendazole. I think he is strong enough for blood work, so when we get back from Texas, I’ll ask the vet to check his blood count.

[Luna]

That’s good that he weighed more. Did the vet say anything about the arthritis you suspect?

[vanessa]

Nope, and no x-rays. Just pain meds. He assumes arthritis, but doesn’t think it is necessary to x-ray, if the metacam has proven effective.

[vanessa]

So we are in texas. Didnt get booted off united 😉 and i had a lovely baby shower 🙂 he is doing just fine. Very snuggly, eating well. Im getting used to the new routine with him. The lower dose of pain meds is ok. I still keep him propped up in a small area with access to jos food and water. He can shuffle and turn around nut hopping makes him fall so i dont give him that much space. He is looking cuddly and comfortable. He sleeps on my lap while i watch tv, sleeps on my lap in the car, grooms me and hid stuffy, eats and poops really well. He’ll continue to be in s diaper, but iv figured out a good routine and how i need to cut the diaper to fit over his hips. No more urine scald and his fur if growing back. His ears are still a little itchy but the oil helps. Im happy with his progress 🙂

[Tony's Mum]

AW, that’s good to hear! Glad you enjoyed your baby shower too, you deserved a good celebration!

[Vienna Blue in France]

Glad things are going ok

[Nibbles]

I’m glad to hear he has gained weight and all is ok!

[vanessa]

Grrr… last night he wasnt too intersted in his food and had the diagonal head nod and wasnt holding himself up well. And chattering his teeh. I’m still in texas, but i brought with baytril and fenbendazole and a medicine scale just in case. So i put him back on baytril/panacur. I want to have his blood work checked when i get back to virginia. He feels better this afternoon. I wonder if he needs longer term baytril.

[vanessa]

Doing good. He feels pretty good on metacam and baytril. Super snuggly, purrs, pushes up with his head when I pet him, crawls up on my lap to snuggle, and tosses his food bowl around. This morning he had scattered his food and rearranged his little nest area. At the moment he is on a vet fleece bedding, propped up with blankets, with his food and water close by. I want to give him a larger play area for 5pm till bed time. Puppy pee pads are slippery, and while the blue fleece is comfy, it isn’t very stable. So I want to find a rubbery mat I can use – I was thinking of the rubber linings for kitchen drawers. He used to enjoy tossing around his treat ball, so I want to introduce that again, and see how much movement he is comfortable with.

I just got a belated response from the vet – I had emailed the far-away-vet before our plane ride because I was going to run out of metacam, and I hadn’t ironed out the travel decisions yet. She wrote back this morning saying again that she thinks he is suffering, should not travel, and should be on metacam till I decide to put him down. She doesn’t believe he will show improvement. While I respect her professional opinion, he is doing soooo much better with metacam and baytril, I don’t believe he is suffering with this medication combo, and it’s really hard to explain to anyone else just how different a bunny he is. He has always been very relaxed and adapts well. He is a great little traveler. Try explain that one to a vet… My other bunnies hunch in the car, and don’t eat. He flops, sleeps, eats, grooms, all while the vehicle is moving. How do I explain that to a vet without sounding like a complete liar and an irresponsible bunny momma? (I’m venting). I feel disappointed when people think I’m irresponsible – because they don’t know my bunny like I do. It’s easy to judge, especially if you are a professional, but I also recognize that it’s easy for me to to feel righteously indignant – and wrongly dismiss important information from professionals. Not that I should care what other people think, but I don’t like that she feels I’m putting Lancelot through unnecessary suffering.

[Luna]

If it’s the far away vet, do you need to ever see her again? At least it sounds like the closer vet is willing to work with you and listen to your opinions. Speaking of med combos, I took another look back through your posts and saw that other than the fenbendazole, he seemed to really improve during the times he was given Baytril.

[vanessa]

DISCLAIMER: In this post, I am not advising or encouraging people to self treat without a vet prescription. I believe that every bunny should have access to veterinary treatment. I have taken Lancelot to many vet visits, and I have not been completely satisfied with his treatment plan.

I don’t need to see the far-away-vet now that I have agreement with the closer vet on long-term metacam. And the vet that I saw there, was not the one that I had wanted to see – who is out for 3 months on baby leave. But now that I have prescription metacam on a 2-month supply, I don’t need to go back there.

I asked my boyfriend for his opinion on this. I know that metacam and baytril help greatly, along with 5 days of fenbendazole/ponazuril once a month. I can get baytril easily, and legally. So I asked him what he thought about me keeping Lancelot on the correct (self prescribed) dose of baytril, and vet-prescribed metacam. Along with self-prescribed fenbendazole/ponazuril. Or – see if the vet agrees with my use of medicine, and prescribes the stuff. He thinks that if it’s working, and it’s more affordable, then why not keep doing what I’m doing. What I do know – is that repeated 4 week treatments with baytril separated by intervals, could lead to resistance, although I suppose even long term use could lead to resistance. I know this vet doesn’t like to overprescribe baytril.
If I stop the baytril and wait for him to show symptoms, I’d have to wait a few days for a vet appointment, and I don’t want Lancelot to have to wait – while feeling sick. So I give him baytril. But that means he feels better within a few days, and has no symptoms to show the vet. So if I want vet prescribed baytril, I need to let him feel sick for a few days. Which I know – I won’t do.

June is time to have his teeth checked again – so I’ll just be totally honest with this closer vet that I normally go to, and tell him that I put him back on baytril, and that I’m keeping him on this med combo.

He doesn’t think that fenbendazole is warranted at this point. That’s a difference in philosophy. I believe in treating for EC if it is a possibility, due to the dangers of not treating. He only believes in treating for EC if it the symptoms are severe. The other vet said that we are “killing bunnies with fenbendazole”.

[vanessa]

Well it’s up and down as usual. He started to make good progress, and was drinking his water without me flavoring it. He was an eating/drinking machine. Then last night I noticed he hadn’t eaten as much, and his poops were mucousy. Cecotropes still good. So back to syringe feeding. By lunch today, he had not had much water again, and only took a few bites from his bell pepper. Not normal. But his behavior is fine. He still grooms and cuddles his stuffy, grooms himself, hasn’t changed his posture or sitting position, nothing noteable except the lack of appetite and mucousy poops. Today I added benebac to his syringe. I think he might need a more regular routine of benebac, instead of just “as needed”.
I wondered if the change was because I changed up his living area, but II haven’t known him to be environmentally sensitive. I moved his setup into a large litter box because he was trying to wander off his fleece because he likes to hang out in the corners of the room, and but he falls over and can’t get up. So I put his fleece/blanket arrangement in the litter box which has high enough walls that he can’t get out. The house was nippy this weekend, so I covered him up wit a knitted blanket. He was in bunny heaven. He really looked like he was enjoying the new setup, all cuddly with his stuffy. So I was surprised to see the mucousy poops. I thought – maybe he can’t find his food 6 inches from his face in the new setup (he’s blind). But even leaving a bell pepper at his feet, he only took a few bites. His lunch time diaper had cecotropes but no regular poops. He did poop while I was changing his diaper. I’ll just keep up with the syringe feeding and benebac and see how he does. He has a vet appointment in June.

[vanessa]

WelI think it was gas this time. He doesn’t hold the regular belly pressed to the ground posture – because he doesn’t hold any posture well. His belly was gurgly so I gave him simethicone, and an hour later, he hasn’t stopped eating 🙂
That still doesn’t explain to me why his poops were mucousy… I’v understood that to mean bacteria overgrowth and inflammation of the intestine. I’ll keep an eye on the poops. Maybe the benebac fixed that? Eiher way – he is eating and driking, so I’m happy.

[Luna]

Lancelot keeping all of us on our toes . Glad to hear his appetite is better. Give him a hay cookie from me .

[Tony's Mum]

Oh my gosh, you poor thing. Glad it worked out okay!

[vanessa]

I’m happy to say that he is feeling quite spunky. He is back to tossing his food bowl upside down coz he likes to eat off the floor, tossing his veggies in his water bowl (radishes make quite a splash!), overturning his water bowl (back to using heavy glass), and tossing his blanket into his water bowl. I tried giving him more play space, but he wants to be back in his box. He seems uncertain when I give him my whole bedroom as play space. He tries to get back into his box, and falls over. So… he will stay in his box for the time being. He’s quite comfy there. I got him a wicker ball to toss, since he is showing interest in playing. I tried giving him a box – he got all uncertain again. He is quite blind – so the uncertainty is more like fear and mild panic.
As far as mobility goes – although he still can’t do more than shuffle, when I pick him up to change his diaper, he kicks his legs a lot harder than he did before – to the point where he has kicked his clean diaper off as I am trying to put him back. So I’m adjusting the way I pick him up/ put him down, so he kicks less. All good signs 🙂
His ears are also looking better. I have been dabbing grapeseed oil on his ears every second day. It takes a while for the scabs to fall off (fur mites), but I notice hair growing back – so that tells me they must be les itchy. And I’v figured out how to clean his ears. Otis ear cleanser, roll the drops around gently in his ear, cotton swab, aim, swirl. It tickles him, but I’m getting better at being quicker at it. He reaches his ears best when I’m holding him on his back. But when he is sitting upright, I have to help him balance in order to get those feet up in the air.
It’s like overnight he just came out of a funk. Don’t know how else to describe it.
Still very immobile and incontinent, but otherwise doing great!

[Luna]

Spunky?! That is awesome news!

[Tony's Mum]

Lol spunk is a much dirtier word this side of the pond… But I’m glad to hear it in this context! (((Lancelot)))

[vanessa]

Posted By Tony’s Mum on 5/15/2017 3:51 PM

Lol spunk is a much dirtier word this side of the pond… But I’m glad to hear it in this context! (((Lancelot)))

So I I had to look up what Spunk means in Ireland… Lol…

[vanessa]

This week he has been enthusiastic about exploring my room. Mornally he stays on the pee pad where I sit him to change his diaper. But this week he has been trying to get around the room. He falls over easily so I keep my hand close to him to steady him. But he enjoys himself. I let him move around the room untill he comes back to me for snuggles. He has finished destroying his wicker ball 🙂 time for a new toy 🙂 I pull pieces of wicker out of his water bowl and food bowl. He goes though phases of what he wil eat. At the moment he is sworn off pellets. But he is devouring his critical care soup. It does mean he has more cecotropes than usual, and I have to get to his diaper sooner. Pee runs off the cecotropes and onto his skin. He manages to get pee on the skin above his tail. He’ll have a vet appointment in 1-2 weeks to check on his teeth. I’m really happy to see him feel better.

[Lemonsoup]

That’s great to hear he’s feeling happy and trying to get about the room. He’s so lucky to have you!

[vanessa]

Thanks Lemonsoup. Now my challenge is to make sure he gets his diaper changes while I’m having my baby born… I’m due in 4 weeks and I don’t know yet how long my hospital stay will be.
So check out this detailed poop plan…
I’v shown my bf how to change his diaper, I want to show his daughter, and they both need to see how to give his pain meds, and I’m thinking of a third person for lunch time diaper changes. The young lady who normally cares for my zoo while I’m out will be on vacation herself. There is a neighbor who I think is a stay-at-home mom. I’ll ask her to do the lunch time changes, and then have my bf and his daughter tag-team the rest. But my bf will also be at the hospital with me and our new baby… So aside from a mom/dad/baby-bag, I also need to prepare a Lancelot-bag for while I’m in hospital! Today I’m getting a pack of diapers to precut for his bag, I have 10 new syringes for his pain meds, puppy pee pads for changing him, I’ll get his food ready in am/pm Ziploc baggies, etc… The only diaper change I’m still concerned about is the 3am change… I normally get up at 3am to change him. I’ll start experimenting with how much of which food to give him at which time, to spread out the cecotropes to a more manageable diaper change time. If he misses the 3am change, currently, he has enough cecotropes in his diaper that the pee just splashes off and soaks his skin. Don’t want that happening while I’m in hospital. At the moment – that routine works for me. He was doing most of his cecotropes around 10am which meant I had to get home during lunch to change his diaper, so I reworked his feeding plan to get the cecotropes out overnight while I’m home – coz it’s easy for me to get up at 3am and then go back to sleep. So I think that 2 weeks before my hospital stay I’ll start getting him back on a 10am cecotrope schedule, and arrange a lunch time diaper change with my neighbor…
Poop logistics…

[Lemonsoup]

Oh my goodness Vanessa – a baby is going to a breeze for you considering all that you for Lancelot  

 Here’s hoping you won’t be in hospital too long. Is the hospital far from your home? My hubby found there wasn’t much he could actually do when I was in having bub – so he’d come in for a couple of hours each day and then head off to work. Hopefully your bf and the rest of your support team can manage Lancelot while you’re out of home. And that your bf can continue with the bunny support when you get home too since you’ll have your hands full with the new arrival. Exciting times! I hope you’re not too stressed out by it all.

[Luna]

Eating, moving, playing, and snuggling. I’m so happy for you and Lancelot . How is Guin doing?

[vanessa]

Guin is actually doing good. She knows where he is at, and when she comes into my room, if he is accessible, they snuggle for a minute or two. If he is fenced off (due to his diaper) she ignores him. She still runs up to me for snuggles, she has her stuffy that she gooms, and she sits at the fence opposite Avalon and Morgana. I’v been trying to do a trio with her and Avalon/Morgana. But the last 2 weeks, and the next 4 weeks – will be hectic. So lately I’v only managed a few sessions a week. Not enough. Between working late to make up for missed work due to medical appointments (I have about 2 appointments a week now that I’m so close to my due date) and keepign up with housework… yeah… it might have to wait untill maternity leave. And we’ll see how that goes… It takes me about 15 minutes to catch Avalon. And another 15 to catch Morgana…
Guin has been comming out of her room more, to run around my room. And she doesn’t hide from me anymore.

The hospital is 45 minutes from me without traffic…

[Luna]

Yikes, busy busy busy! Guin sounds like she’s doing just fine, so yes definitely focus on yourself and soon to be born baby . Besides, you already know Avalon and Morgana are going to make the bonding a full time challenge so it’ll be better to wait until things aren’t so hectic.

[vanessa]

So Lancelot is not doing well – again. This weekend he started to ignore his pellets, then his veggies, but was still eating his critical care soup. I was giving him 6 Tbsp critical care + 18 Tbsp water. He was eating it all. Then he stopped eating his critical care soup but was still eating his Oxbow Natural Science herbal support hay cookies – and I supplemented with syringe feeding. Then he stopped the hay cookies – so now it’s all syringe. This time he is fighting tooth and nail. He does have a vet appointment for tomorrow. It’s difficult syringe feeding him while I am working 10-hour days, have my own chiro appointments, etc, fixing up a house to sell, getting ready for baby… busy busy busy. The fact that he is fighting against the syringe is good. Normally – if he feels ill – he doesn’t fight anything. As he feels better, he starts to kick and squirm. So I suspect it’s his teeth and not an ear infection/EC. He has been wobbly this weekend, but that could be from not eating enough. Now that I’m feeding him 9 Tbsp critical care powder plus water – he should be getting enough calories, but is still falling over. So that means urine scald, because the diapers are ineffective if a rabbit is lying down on it’s side. An empty belly tends to cevelop gas, and he has some loud gurgles… I’m giving him simethicone with each feeding. He looks comfortable, grooms his stuffy, and only chatters his teeth after a syringe feeding. I’m not sure of that means anything – he normally chatters his teeth after something he doesn’t enjoy – like a bath/groom/hair trim. Once he is on the ground, he snuggles right back up to me and purs. It is time to have his teeth checked – I moved his teeth filing schedule from 4 times a year to 3 times a year, becase the last time they were actually really good. But he has eaten less of his hay cubes this year, from the frequent bouts of illness. So maybe I need to move the dental schedule back to 4 times a year. We’ll see what the vet says tomorrow. I really hope it is just his teeth and tha tI can bring in the following day to have them filed and tha the will be eating again like normal. I’m 3 weeks out from my babie’s due date – and Lancelot’s health makes me very concerned. I need him to be eating and drinking on his own while I’m in hospital. I’ll show my bf how to syringe feed him if I have to – but his health is something I like to be able to keep an eye on myself. So… holding thumbs…

[Luna]

Hopefully it’s just his teeth. It makes sense if it’s about that time of the year that they get checked.

[vanessa]

Got back from the vet. Nystagmus, neurological, some points that he’ll file of the molars next week. I asked for a refill on his metacam. Yesterday he was eating his tomatos and a small amount of bell pepper. And a tiny bit of Ctirical Care soup. I’m still syringe feeding him. He is still kinda floppy, sleepy, eyes are more weepy than usual, and he has been drinking more water. With drinking more, he is getting wet in his diaper. I’m currently still giving him bayril, and his monthly dose of fenbendazole/toltrazuril. Since this is an active lapse, I might want to go longer than 5 days. I might want to go the full 28.

[vanessa]

It’s been a week since he stopped eating, and he is slowly starting to eat again. What a relief… The Nystagmus is still there, but perhaps slightly less noticeable. If he keeps this up, he should be fine while I’m in hospital. I’ll write up a detailed care list for him, including his regular medicine. And I’ll include 1cc of simethicone with dinner – since I know by experience which stomach sound is normal digestion and which is gas – and that is hard to convey to someone else. And he doesn’t hold the regular belly-to-the-ground gas posture. So I’m feeling a little less nervous about it.

[Luna]

That’s good; plus now you won’t have to worry about having to go get his teeth done anytime soon right after you have the baby. Don’t forget to put his stuffy on the care list .

[vanessa]

Yeah – all of a sudden I have a million things to do…

[vanessa]

Grr… he didn’t eat today. Tomorrow I’m going to call the vet and ask if they would do day-boarding. My bf will be staying with me at the hospital – so if he could drop Lancelot off at the vet in the mornings and pick him up in the early evening, then during the day, Lancelot can have his diapers changed and be syringe fed at the vets. I dont’ know if they would do that – but I’ll call tomorrow and ask.

[vanessa]

Well, up and down. I’m not sure if it is gas, stasis, teeth, EC, or a combination. The nystagmus is almost almost gone, but still there. He is having hsi teeth filed on Wednesday. As long as I keep feeding him simethicone, he appears more interested in eating. His usual veggie interests aren’t the same – he noramlly powers down bell peppers and bok choy. One day he’ll eat them, the nest day he won’t. Today I gave him radish and butter-lettuce. He was very eager, but he doesn’t eat them in one sitting like he used to. He eagerly eats a small amount, naps, eats some more, naps, etc. I’m glad he’s at least showing some interest… He threw his hay cookie bowl into his water bowl – hay cookies and all, and his bell pepper. And his lettuce. Everything food related went into the water bowl… 🙂 The hay cookies were Oxboy Natural Science supplements. The are really hard – harder than hsi pellets (that he hasn’t eaten in about a week). After soaking them in his water bowl, he ate all his oxbow cookies. Maybe it’s a combination of everything. I forgot the vet I wanted to call is closed over weekends – so I’ll call him Monday about boarding options.

[vanessa]

Bummer – my preferred vet doesn’t board. I’ll have to figure out something else for Lancelot while I’m in hospital :-/

[vanessa]

He has been eating better this week – simethicone at mealtimes definitely helps. Took him to the vet this morning to have his molars filed. For everything I have to say about the different vets – this one understands his condition which I appreciate. I didn’t want to feel judged for not including pellets in his food baggie – I brought veggies and flavored water for him. They understand that at this point, he gets to eat whatever he will eat – and that I’ll syringe feed him later this afternoon. They’ll change his diaper during the day. After the last vet said that she “thought she was clear that he is suffering and should be euthanized”, it’s nice to get some understanding. Hopefully he’ll eat his pellets again after today’s dental work. But at least he eats most of the critical care that I put down for him, and I syringe feed the rest – so he is still getting 6 Tbsp critical care powder a day. He looooves tomatoes 🙂

[Luna]

That’s good that they are both respecting your decisions and meeting Lancelot’s needs. Are there other vets/boarding facilities that you trust that could look after him while you’re in hospital? Any close by family or friends?

[vanessa]

The other vet is the one who would euthanize him… I’v asked my bf’s daughter and am still waiting on her to come by so I can show her the routine. There is another neighbor that I can ask too – to spread out the diaper changes… So this afternoon I’ll knock on a few more doors… I might also ask this vet myself. Maybe his receptionist said no because they don’t have a boarding program per-say, but maybe he would agree. My bf will be able to do about 2 diaper changes a day. So I just need to get confirmation from 2 other people so the other 5 diaper changes are handled. But the 3am change will probably not happen…

[vanessa]

Yay!!!! he ate pelelts from my hand today 🙂 Those darn teeth! I’ll still be offering him critical care for the rest of his life due to his weight – but wow – I love to see improvement. It’s been a good day overall. I’m one step closer to getting my medical leave approved, I got my car all nice and cleaned up and spit-shined, got the baby car seats inspected, got Lancelot’s teeth filed, and then he started eating his pellets again. it was a good day 🙂

[vanessa]

Grrr… I had just connented on temps in another thread when my ac gives in. House is 84f. The other 3 bunnies r uncomfortable but doing ok. Lancelot is not used to high temps. Between the fleece and the blankets that prop him up, he was physically hot when i got home from work, and he had fallen over, so he couldnt eat or drink till i got home to pick him up. I syringe fed him and he is feeling better now. The house is now 78 with the sun down, but tomorrow it will b hot again. While he was stillhot, he had quite a head tick and pronounced nystagmus. He is getting an ice bag tomorrow.

[Luna]

Oh no! That is so scary that the a/c went out while you were at work. Do you have an oscillating fan that you could put outside of his room so that it helps cool things down without blowing air on him?

[vanessa]

I do, don’t know why I didn’t think of it sooner! I’m having a technician come out. The fan helps.

[Tony's Mum]

Yeah it got too over 80 here (and aircon is non existent in Ireland) and Tony didn’t cope well. It was probably even hotter in my house than outside. We now have stasis ?

I honestly don’t know how you do it Vanessa, it’s been three days of syringe feeding and medication and I have barely slept. I’m totally exhausted and very very very emotional. You are absolutely an inspiration to me right now. X

[vanessa]

Thanks Tony mum. Poor little guy. It was due opening to me… My 3 rabbits who were outdoors from birth all cope fine with the high temps. But Lancelot struggles. He seems to pass out – falls over, stops eating/drinking. I just spent 4 days in hospital and was quite worried about him. He stopped eating while I was in hospital, the a.c. went out again, and I also think he was missing me. When I got back, even tho the a.c. was back up, my bf couldn’t get him to eat. When I came into the room, he started to eat immediately. I still syringe fed him to make sure he was getting enough fluids/benebac. It doesn’t take much for him to stop eating and if I don’t catch it quickly, it turns to stasis. Now I have a newborn baby girl, a c-section recovery, my bf is on travel, and a small zoo… I’m having a cleaning crew come over tomorrow. It can be a bit much at the moment. I must say I have never given medication for stasis other than metacam, but that is for his ongoing arthritis pain. I just push fluids, syringe feeding, something, and benecac. It does take a lot of time…

(Edit for silly “auto type feature”…

[vanessa]

Thinking out-loud…

The last 2 weeks have been rough. I’v been quiet lately coz I’v been busy with my new baby, and teleworking from home. I am able to spend more time caing for Lancelot, although it does take some help from my bf with the baby in the house. But the last few weeks have been rough. He got the goopiest eye I’v seen, and his fur got hard and crusty around his eye and there was thick white goop. I have been cleaning it with warm honey/chamomile tea, and applying teromycin. That worked, and the eye has cleared up.

His cecotropes are the next problem. It takes probiotics every 2nd day, to keep them decent. If I only give him probiotics as needed, he gets very soft cecotropes, which make a mess in his diaper. Sometimes he kicks his diaper off if I’m asleep and he has made that soft cecotrope. Then he steps in it and it’s a mess. His front legs are giving in, like the first time he got sick at the beginning of this journal. If he kicks his diaper off, and his front legs are lying towards his rea, he manages to pee all over his front legs. I feel just dreadful. This is no life for a little bunny. I keep thinking that if I can just get him past the squichy cecotrope stage, he’ll be more comfortable. But I don’t know how long that will take. Urine scald is one thing – but fecal scald is a different story. It’s way harder to clean off his fur, and has a harsher effect on his skin. I’v been thinking everyday now for the past few days – that I need to consider letting him go. There is nothing diferent about his environment, food, diet, anything, except the new baby. And a different diaper brand. I was using Luvs because I like the fit best, but now I’m using Huggies because I like the absorbency and ability to wick moisture – the best. I still cut it to fit him.
I don’t want to put him down – I don’t want him to suffer his current indignity – and I don’t want to regret not having him put down sooner. It sucks. I love him so much – he still grooms his stuffy, grooms me, has the best appetite I’ve seen in a looong time, plays with his food bowl, everything is great about his attitude – just not his health 🙁
If I can just keep his cecotropes decent…

[Luna]

I’m sorry Vanessa . I really don’t know what to say. Lancelot knows you love him, and we all love him too .

[LittlePuffyTail]

I’m also sorry to hear things are so unwell. It must be really hard with the new baby.

Only you know when the right time is. And I can’t give you advice with regards to that. But it is hard, because as you mentioned, you don’t want to regret the decision of not doing it sooner. My beloved little Stormy, I loved him with all my heart, and when he had cancer, I just kept hoping for a miracle and I now regret letting him linger so long. I just couldn’t bear to let him go and I hope he forgives me for that. 

I just want to give you both hugs right now. There is really no decision more difficult, I know.

[Tony's Mum]

Oh Vanessa. I’m so sorry.

[vanessa]

Its just “another” ec relapse. Stopped the baytril and his cecotropes cleared up. Huge relief. But his head got more floppy. Front legs are weak and he can’t move between his food/water bowl. He sleeps with his head in his food dish, and just keeps eating. He feels better now that his cecotropes are better. I started syringe feeding again, and that also helped. My bf thinks we should give him another chance. He is still full of spunk. Ill try 28 more days of panacur. It just makes me so sad to see him like this. And maybe it is harder with a new baby 🙁

[vanessa]

Getting back on track 🙂 I changed his probiotics to a full dose in a syringe, instead of in his drinking water, so he gets it all at once, instead of maybe getting it all during a 24 hour period. I think the critical care made the biggest difference. Over a few days he now has lovely cecotropes, sots more comfortably, and has stayed dry in both his eyes and his diaper. This morning he started to fight the syringe and thump his feet at me for all the handling 🙂 All good signs. Poor little guy thumped his feet mid-air when I had him on his back for feeding. At least it shows he feels better 🙂

[joea64]

Good news! Poop right on that old e. cuniculi and show it just what you think of it, Lancelot!

[LittlePuffyTail]

Encouraging news!! Happy to hear it!

[Q8bunny]

I’ve been following his progress but not saying anything because what could I say that you don’t already know? He’s an amazing bun and you’re an amazingly loving bunny mom who takes the best care of him possible. So even though it breaks my heart that he has struggled for so long, I’m that much gladder when he feels a bit better.

[vanessa]

I have to find a new vet 🙁 My favorite rabbit vet left the practice. Don’t know where to. I was on my way to Lancelots dental checkup and called to confirm, and heard that he had left and they had been trying to reach me but my number changed 🙁 I’v been calling around and it looks like my options are the vet who was so harsh about her feelings on wanting him euthanized, and either Richmond, or DC. I’m smack in the middle – actually Richmond would be a 90 minute drive, DC would be 2.5 hours with traffic. So I’ll start looking around at Richmond 🙁 The vet that was wanting to euthanize him had such a horrible way of talking about it. Even though I think about that option every day – I can’t go back there because of the way she spoke to me. 🙁

[joea64]

Posted By vanessa on 9/19/2017 2:16 PM

I have to find a new vet 🙁 My favorite rabbit vet left the practice. Don’t know where to. I was on my way to Lancelots dental checkup and called to confirm, and heard that he had left and they had been trying to reach me but my number changed 🙁 I’v been calling around and it looks like my options are the vet who was so harsh about her feelings on wanting him euthanized, and either Richmond, or DC. I’m smack in the middle – actually Richmond would be a 90 minute drive, DC would be 2.5 hours with traffic. So I’ll start looking around at Richmond 🙁 The vet that was wanting to euthanize him had such a horrible way of talking about it. Even though I think about that option every day – I can’t go back there because of the way she spoke to me. 🙁

It’s really too bad you’re not closer to Washington, DC. I have some good contacts with Friends of Rabbits, from whom I adopted Panda and Fernando, and they might have been able to direct you to several good rabbit-savvy vets in Northern Virginia.

[vanessa]

Long shot – but does anyone know of Lakeside Animal Hospital in Henrico Virginia?
I adopted Lancelot from a shelter in DC, it’s just such a long drive for routine visits.

[joea64]

Posted By vanessa on 9/19/2017 2:55 PM
Long shot – but does anyone know of Lakeside Animal Hospital in Henrico Virginia?
I adopted Lancelot from a shelter in DC, it’s just such a long drive for routine visits.

While I haven’t yet found anything on Lakeside Animal Hospital in Virginia (there’s one in Maryland), this is the DC House Rabbit Society’s list of rabbit vets in Virginia:

http://rabbitsinthehouse.org/?page_id=47

Since you mentioned Henrico, Virginia, I’m wondering if the hospitals in Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania would be manageable for you. Here’s Friends of Rabbits’ vet list:

http://www.friendsofrabbits.org/info/display?PageID=17375

[Luna]

Oh man, I wouldn’t go to that rude vet either. The practice can’t tell you where your favorite vet went? Maybe you will be able to track him down with Google if his information is up on the website of the new place he moved to?

[vanessa]

I tried googling my favorite vet and the practice said they would tell me where he went when they know.
I made an appointment for Monday at one of the vets on the list from joea64, but asked for a specific vet coz the rude one works there and I don’t want to see her. I don’t want to wait too long, coz its time to get his molars filed. But I also need to decide if I’m going to put him under anesthesia again, or let him go. My poor little boy. He has been such a trooper. I love him so much.

[Luna]

He’s definitely been a tough little fighter through all this. And with such a great attitude! No matter what happens, Luna and I will always keep him in our hearts .

[Author]

Messages