Jack & Vivian

[BinkyBunny]

I will definitely post  video and more photos later, but for now I will give you a rundown of how things are going.

Jack is a monster mounter!!  Vivian was dealing with it okay for the first  day and half – she’d run and thump and then he’d respect that for the time being. She wanted so badly to just to cuddle – she’s slowly approach to snuggle, and he’d groom her and she’d melt and she’d groom him and he’d melt, but then he’d ruin it all with his persistent honk and mount routine within minutes of snuggling. 

Day 1:  Just lounged around.  Jack slowly persued.  Vivian ran. Then they’d lounge near each other.  They could hang out for a few hours lounging, some slow chasing – intensive goofy staring by Jack who would honk and stare like he was saying “ya wanna?  Ya wanna?” (I have it on video – goofy guy!)  She’d just give one ounce of interest to sniff him, and he’d take that as his cue to try and mount her and she’d run off.

Day 2: she had told him she had had enough of this mount routine and gave him a nip.  Then he said “Look Lady, you’re not the boss of me!” and she said “AND you’re not the boss of me either!” and they started to do the aggression circle(I stopped immediately).    I tried later that evening, but she wanted nothing to do with him at that point and said to him..”I never want to see your cute fuzzy face again! I thought you were so handsome, but you had to go and  ruin everything with you dumb ‘ol mounting”.  Later in their pens (near  each other but safely separated) he chewed his xpen bars to get near her and she growled and boxed at him  and said,  “I hate you, leave me alone!” and then ran away to hide in her box.

Day 3: I gave them the day off to settle their nerves.  Jack settled down after being near her pen all day.(he’s in his own pen separated by an inch) I also decided from now on to bond them when he was the most tired (afternoons) so that he wouldn’t have the energy to do much but snuggle to try to get on her good side. I also gave Vivian a stunt double of Jack.(that smelled like him too)  She beat the hell out of it and I thought,” Uh, Oh, this doesn’t look good,” but then an hour later after she was all done, she snuggled with him,and she also was no longer mad at Jack through the pen after that.

Day 4:  Afternoon car ride.  While in the carrier Vivian at first gave Jack a nip on his bum to let him know that she was still a little bit mad But then once on the car ride they snuggled. Vivian groomed him and vice versa when we would come to a prolonged stop.   Got back to the house, and did a 20 minute bonding session on the bathroom floor where they groomed each other.  Left it on a good note.  Jack seemed to redeem himself in Vivian’s eyes.  Jack was happier after, and later didn’t try to break open his xpen AS MUCH. 

Day 5 (today): Afternoon car ride then they did really well in the bathroom.  Jack was being a gentleman (with a little help from me to make him stop when I saw signs he wanted to mount) Vivian never knew he was going to try to mount her because she was either snoozing near him or not facing him munching down on parsley. He groomed her alot, and she groomed him but at times both were more in the “You groom me, no  you groom me”  mode.  One of them always gave in.  Jack gave in more this time.   Then she had to pee (not a marking pee, just a large.”gotta go” pee, but regardless, after she did, all he wanted to do was mount.  But before he could even get started I stopped it.  But they did well for an hour. NOTE though: If wasn’t closely supervising I have no doubt they would have fought due to their huge disagreement about the mounting. (it’s not even a LITTLE okay with Vivian anymore)

At this point, she wants nothing to do with mounting, and if he even honks at her, her ears go down and she’ll get that “So help me Bunny in the Sky!” look.   But if he doesn’t mount her and just snuggles with her she grooms him so much.  She’s actually VERY affectionate.  Though she can get bossy about her litterbox (so no litterboxes during bonding) Lots of paper towels though for cleanups. (I will end up using tarp for carpeted areas when we move from the bathroom)

I called Marcy to ask what to do because Jack has always been a mounter, and he may always have the tendency and Vivian ONLY gets aggressive when he mounts.  So that could be a problem!  With Rucy she would give in at times, so I think he learned that if he was just persistent enough, he’d get bunny booty.  

So hopefully he will learn soon that he is going to have to put the lover boy side aside. Marcy’s advice was to clicker train or find some way to redirect. 

Tonight I put a stunt double of Vivian in his pen.  BIG mistake. All he wanted to do was hump that thing and then get at Vivian to hump thereal gal!  Just chewed on the cage like a mad man.  So I took the Vivian stunt double away, and he settled down.  Geesh!

So, we’ll just take it one day at a time.   Just send out “settle down” vibes to Jack’s mounting urges! We’ll need it if this is going to succeed.

I have some great video and photos that I will put together soon to show all of this.

For now here are photos of their  sweet moments and my HOPE that  Jack will find this better than any “mount” as Vivian really does groom him more than Rucy ever did (though she would, just not for as long as Vivian does)

 

 

 

 

[RabbitPam]

Wow – I love your description of Day 3 LOL.

Glad you called Marcy because I was going to suggest asking someone else about how to curb mounting. I wonder if the place Marcus took Maryann and Dono that got them bonded in a week has experienced this situation and found a solution? (Don’t tell me, it’s Marcy’s place?)

He mounts a lot for a neutered bunny. I wonder if h’es being dominent since she’s so much his equal? It does sound like a plea for Bunny Booty. Would he mount a toy that smelled like someone or something else and then relax around Vivian? So he associated the toy with the mounting and Vivian with companionship? (Like mounts toy, gets raisin. Mounts Vivian, gets scolded, stops, gets raisin.)

Eagerly awaiting videos. (Rated PG)

[BinkyBunny]

yep, that was Marcy’s place where Marcus got his two bonded.  I am definitely now going to do clicker training or behavior training, and rabbitpam, the advice about rewarding for the good behavior is great – that will be part of the retraining for sure.

Jack has always been a mounter. He will mount as much as a bunny will ever let him – especially around this time of the year. The vet said it was because he was neutered later in on life after he had already fathered kits (before he went to a rescue). She said this behavior can become instinctually set and doesn’t depend on hormones. There are health issues that will also make a bunny mount, but at this time the vet doesn’t think that is it.

He would mount Rucy too and she wasn’t hardly dominant with him at all. She would always allow him to eat first, use the box alone IF he wanted, but he would mount her for dominance when she didn’t groom him as much as he wanted. He didn’t need much though from her.

As far as the toy goes he cuddled with it when it didn’t smell like Vivian, and he won’t mount it unless it smells like Vivian which actually made it worse because then he expected that of Vivian. So no Vivian stunt double for him. He will calm down though if he has a “Non-Vivian” stunt double. He’ll relax and snuggle by it.

He’s definitely a dominant bunny, and he will mount for dominance, but the annoying part is he will also mount as a part of his “urge”. They are totally separate. The “urge” one he honks and tries to first swoon her (usually, with a stare, ears forward completely), maybe a little groom first, and the other one, he will have a more aggressive tone, more of a lunge forward, sometimes a growl, but not always. They look very similar but there are the differences that help me distinguish.

His other dates he had liked him until he mounted too, but the difference was that Odessa wanted him dead within seconds of him trying, and Manteca let him mount her two times before she started spraying him and getting more and more aggressive within the first five minutes. Vivian would run and thump, and Jack would respect that at the time and let her be for the moment. She was the most patient bunny with his antics,

I sure hope I can break him of this because it will be hard to find any bunny, even the most passive bunny that would put up with that for years. I did give Rucy an escape box, where she could fit, and Jack couldn’t, but Vivian is bigger and can hold her own and I can’t make an “escape” box for her that he couldn’t fit into also. Plus, she is now at the point she won’t tolerate it for a second. Maybe if she sees his kind side she’ll be more like Rucy and allow him to mount her every once in awhile. Rucy would be like – okay, just hurry up and get it over with! But she wasn’t thrilled with that part either. He would usually just give up chasing her or she’d give in.

Also if Vivian doesn’t tire of giving him the stink-eye and thump that will work to to deter him sometimes(it worked for Rucy sometimes too). But so far she’s letting him know, I think you’re great – I’ll eat with you, I’ll groom you, I’ll snuggle with you, but you honk at me just once, and you’re toast.

[Sarita]

Jack is funny. I can understand how Vivian is over the mounting.

I imagine with Jack the mounting is just an excitement response and that’s his instinct to mount when he gets excited – still a somewhat dominant sexual behavior that he cannot control. My rabbit Twizzler (spayed female) mounts her partner also a spayed female periodically when she gets excited (which is not so much anymore and it’s usually over food.) Luckily Twizzler doesn’t continue like Jack for a long time – she also doesn’t honk (which cracks me up that Jack does that).

I have to wonder if you can totally stop this behavior though since he’s been behaving this way for so long…not to be negative of course.

I know that Markus said that the pen that they did for Maryann and Dono had a barrier that was L-shaped but did not go all the way across the pen so that Dono could get away from Maryann but still be close and that helped. I know he drew it in one of his emails too – I’ll have to see if I can dig that up.

[TARM]

I haven’t had a chance to read this whole thread but I just want to say that I LOVE the dialogue!

Reading the original post I know for sure how lucky I am that Marshmallow and Digger get along so well. He has his moments where he tries to mount her and I intervene but those are few and far between.

Jack and Vivian are very cute together.

[BinkyBunny]

Sarita – that’s actually right on about Jack – it’s when he gets excited! So even if he’s excited about running down the hallway and playtime, it’s like he wants celebrate with a mount! I never related it directly to getting excited but that is how much of the mounting is. So who knows. I figured he’d be difficult to match up because of this, and so I’m just taking this one day at a time. I so want this to work, but there definitely is a barrier that would have to be overcome and the reality is it may not work. So I’m just going to work on retraining him the best I can, and just see how it goes.

Thankfully, I can call Marcy at any time to get advice. She knows Vivian much more than I do right now, so she can help give advice on how to move forward.

[MarkBun]

The L shape was more for chasing one another in wanting to kill them. A mounting bunny doesn’t ‘chase’ he ‘strolls’ and seems all friendly and then POUNCE! I don’t think it would help in this situation.

[jerseygirl]

^ FYI: for anyone interested in the L shape pen for their own rabbit bonding, you can find it in the FAQ’s under Bonding.

BB, this is great to have such in depth descriptions as you progress. Entertaining too! It’s helping answer some of the Qu’s I have while undertaking bunny bonding also. I still have some though! What is the medical is you referred to re mounting? Also, can females spray to? I didn’t know that…

Despite the mounting issue, Vivian & Jack seem a well matched pair. I think she’ll be really good for him if they can get past this impasse. Looking forward to viewing the videos.

[babybunsmum]

lol… oh jack! with all the excited mounting. i’m willing to wager that the further bonding progresses and the longer jack is around vivian the more the excitment will give way and ebb to a happy medium of grooming and snuggles. he’s so similar to pinky. she honks and mounts when she’s excited too.

[TARM]

I have never heard a rabbit honk. Is this strange?

[BinkyBunny]

TARM – It’s a low buzz – many times it’s barely audible, but with Jack, it’s still quiet, yert more obvious. It’s like quietly saying hummm, hummm, hummm, with your mouth closed.

[BinkyBunny]

Thanks everyone for your support.  This is really long I know, so I don’t expect everyone to read through it  unless you want to know the details, but otherwise,  if you just read the first sentence of Day 6, and you’re set!

Day 6:  Good Bonding session today (3 hours) with a few little pits, but all and all it was good. 

I decided since it was such a nice day, I would try a bonding session in the back yard.  I used the extra tall xpens and we have a huge redwood tree that provides great shading.  So I put a tarp down over the grass because it was a little damp), then a blanket  – put some water, hay and greens in and we all three sat in the pen. 

Mutual Grooming went well:  They really groomed eachother quite a bit today despite their tiffs. Vivian gave Jack  the best bunny groom he’s ever had – his face, his ears, his shoulders.  She gave him the full works a few times.  He was in heaven  They snuggled and groomed more than they argued.  And though he really forces his face under hers to make a strong grooming request, he’s also okay with her doing a more timid request with him. He’ll either wait to be groomed before he grooms her, or just groom her first.  They both do this, but since they both give about equal starters and equal returns, then the actual grooming requests haven’t been a problem for either of them.

Worked on retraining Jack’s mounting issues: We were out there for three hours.  Jack tried to mount somewhere between 8 and 10 times.  But here is the good part…which I am very surprised about.  Between Vivian giving him the whip-necked stink-eye, and me saying “Jaaaack” in that “your going to get in trouble” voice, he would begin to stop. Other times I had to physically force him to not go forward with his intention, but the moment he would stop and sort of relax, I would praise him and give him tons of love. this really seemed to help him just begin to understand.  This didn’t prevent him trying to mount her a few more times, but a few times I caught him stopping on his own.  So though I don’t think this little amount has made it all better, i do believe that it lessened amount of mount attempts today.  And I am impressed that even just a little correction had even any affect at all with how long he’s been doing this.   

There were three similar mounting incidents where I had to stop them from getting into a tiff about it.  It would last one half circle  – I’m quick!  As I would separate them they would both do the grunt at each other thing – with “bluffing” open mouth air chomps. (shadow boxing for bunnies!)  I know the bluff – Jack has always done that goofy thing.  All  talk!  (so far….knock on wood)

Discovered two possible triggers  for Jack’s “dominance” mounting: (different than urge mounting)  When she pees and  when she grooms herself. ( I know, it’s gettin weird around here)   

1. You Peed, now I pee! – When she pees, he wants to go pee near her pee, and he wants her to submit by moving out of the way so he can do that,and I think he is mounting her to tell her, “Okay, that’s great, you’ve established a pee place, but i am the male, and  I am the last one to pee around here so move it so I can pee in the same place you peed”. And if his approach to her doesn’t make her move, then he’ll mount.

2. You need something to groom? Well here I am baby!  

He’ll try to mount her when she grooms herself. (This is that “ya wanna do it?” look. where will stay in that position for 10 seconds or so sometimes before he makes his mount move)   Today though, he got better results when he pushed his face under hers (face forward only, not the bum) She seemed to respect that dominant move much better and she groomed him. They actually groomed each other alot today.   Each taking turns for several minutes at at time.  They groomed more than they bickered.   I am so mad though because I did not get video and photos of that part because my camera ran out of batteries!  

I also discovered an annoying habit that Vivian has as well. 

If Jack’s behind or side is to her, she will sometimes nip him. At first I thought she was doing an obnoxious diva dominance move,  (well, she sort of was!) but he’d whip around to face her and give her the “You better watch it MISSY!”, and she’d then sort of cower back away, but then put her head down, like she was saying  ”oh..oh, um…I just meant to say…groom me…please?”  Sometimes he would give her little “token” groom but most of the time he would just would stare her down and she’d just say..”eh..okay…forget about it”.   So I THINK, not sure, that she is nipping him to turn around and groom her. 

She will also nip him if she wants to get passed him, (Jack used to do this gently do this to Rucy, but Vivian isn’t quite as gentle about it with Jack) but both of these approaches cause him to turn around to get ready for a fight and in this case, Vivian doesn’t return aggression and so it seems as if she is beginning to learn not to nip in those two cases.  

Best if she just squishes by him to get him out of the way and when she wants attention to just seek him out and push her nose under his. 

We’ll see how this progresses though.  This can be a tricky issue too.

Last discovery:  Jack gets anxious and grumpy when he can’t use a litterbox.  During bonding, I am no longer am using litterboxes until they bond more, because Vivian gets bossy about her box.  I understand, the ONLY thing that is familiar to her here is a litterbox and she will actually find comfort in the box.  She’ hang out in there during bonding sessions which causes problems for both of them.  So no litterbox, however, Jack knows he normally is supposed to use the box.  And now he i can tell when he has to go.  He starts digging, and just gets grumpy.  I think he thinks he’s going to get into trouble if he pees outside of the box or something…I don’t know.  Anyway, when he finally just decides to take a chance and pee in the corner of the xpen, he then relaxes.  But before that, he is digging, grunting and then Vivian gets all worked up, and this caused tension while he was doing it.  So I think I will have a litterbox ready to put in just when he starts acting this way to make him less anxious.

Well, they are very tired now.  Jack hasn’t even made much of an attempt to chew on the bars, and they don’t even seem to have enough energy to do the poop wars right now.  Here’s a photo of them below from just about an hour ago.  Notice Vivian snuggling with our toy bunny named BeeBee, the Jack look and smell alike stunt double. 

 Well, that was today, and I know well enough to know that tomorrow could be a whole different experience, good or bad.  So, we’ll see what happens.  Wish us luck!

[RabbitPam]

BB,
What a terrific description. (When you go to publish a book you’ll have this chapter already written.)

I’m thinking that Vivian’s nipping is a way she learned to communicate that has held her back. Usually bunnies are not wanted if they bite, and while we all know a nip is just setting teeth without breaking skin, something most of us are used to and is clear the bunny is just doing a command of some sort, it may have prevented her from being adopted from the shelter all that time. Ie, if she nips, maybe she’ll bite next. So if you and Jack retrain her to ask another way, she may get over it gradually as you said.

Also wondered if Jack, who sired kits, just instinctively sees a new female and says “I know what she’s for, and it’s fun!” I wonder if he will eventually see her more like Rucy and Bailey, after getting past the “just doing my job as a Dad” instinct recedes. She’s telling him she’s not for THAT, but she is for him, so it sounds like he’s getting the message.

Your patience is astounding.

[Beka27]

I love this thread! I wonder if the longer sessions are a good idea with them… sort of a modified “wear them down” approach. You don’t actually have STUFF to do, right Jennifer?! Keep it coming! It’s very interesting… I’m especially intrigued by the mounting and what you can do to reduce it. The mounting at my house is worse than ever… :o(

[babybunsmum]

great read… thanks for the update! if you figure out how to cure vivan of her ‘nipping for grooms’ habit let me know. pinky does this to my ankle or butt when we cuddle on thecouch. *sigh* haha

[3crazybuns]

I’m not sure I read much after the picture with the captions because it was sooooooooooo cute!!!! This is very informative though!!! Thanks! =)

[Cassi&Charlie]

This thread is great! I can’t believe you have another bunny!!! I’ve missed so much. She’s beautiful.

The nipping issue when ack has his side or back to Vivien sounds just like what Layla does to Charlie. She’s really vicious as long as Charlie isn’t facing her, but as soon as he whips around she’s suddenly like “who me? I didn’t bite you, I was just sitting here innocently” So all this time I’ve been thinking Charlie was just beating her up for no reason but actually he’s just retaliating to her evilness. So at least you know now instead of 5 months later lol.

[BinkyBunny]

Jack has such an amazingly loud growl, and huge lunge and stomp that he can scare Vivian. He only does this when he gets nipped. (The mounting causes the spiral right away without growling or anything) But with the nip, he whips around and gives her his best angry growl, lunge etc. She has a growl too, but Jacks is sooo much more intimidating so at least it scares her enough to cower at that moment, and he does not follow through with aggression if she cowers. She nipped a few times today, but I also caught her about to do it, and then she stopped herself as if to think twice. Another time, she leaned forward as if she was going to nip, and then she every so gently started grooming his back, I was just waiting for a nip, but she groomed again, but he whipped around but realized nothing happened and so he didn’t get aggressive.

Cassi&Charlie – I can’t believe I have another bunny either. I so hope this all works out. I just want Jack (and Vivian) to be happy. It was so hard on Jack when Rucy died. And since he’s getting older and bunnies don’t live very very long, I figured I should start looking at least for him. It was really only a month that had passed since I lost Rucy – so I still miss Rucy terribly! I still mourn her daily, but I also have a ton of love to give Vivian. 

I have tons of great grooming photos now! I also have some photos of great body language cues and triggers for Jack, etc. I will post the updates either tomorrow or over the weekend. Knowing what sets them off helps me know when to intervene to keep them calm as a preventative measure and hopefully they will then be able to stay calm on their own when the triggers happen. Time will tell. I can say five hours today, and things were good. (hour 4 was tense), but after that they even slept with each other. Vivian lightly snores and Jack was dreaming – so they were obviously relaxed while laying right next to each other.

I’ll post about all of this later. Too tired right now…zzz

 

[BinkyBunny]

Well, in bonding there are good days and bad days. Today was a not so good day. They got along better in some ways – less mounting, less nipping, more relaxed at first, but as much as they are curbing some of their annoying behaviors, they still both have such dominant personalities, I am beginning to wonder if this really will work. The last couple of days was lots of grooming, but still some very tense moments that I know if I didn’t intervene would have ended up serious. And tonight it was going well, but I think Vivian just gets annoyed with Jack – even when he’s just sittin’ around being calm. They both have such strong personalities that I am thinking Jack will need a more passive bunny.  Rucy wasn’t passive with humans, but she was passive with Jack so I think that’s why that worked.   Jack is so mad at Vivian right now, he just wants to kill her through the pen, and Vivian is just resting trying to recover from all the stress of the most recent bonding session.  Poor Bunnies!

Anyway, I will be recruiting the help of Marcy, the bonding guru. I may need to use her bonding services or she may suggest a more passive bunny. I have no idea what the next step will be. I’ll keep you updated! Wish us luck!

[jerseygirl]

…well, remember, it was just a bad day. I can relate though, wondering whether it’s worth persisting. I had read that just about any two bunnies can bond. So Jack & Vivian doing well in that 1st introduction should boost their chances. I wonder, with me, whether it’s my lack of patience that’s creating doubts. I keep thinking my 2 don’t really seem interested, yet they seem to seek each other out in non scheduled bonding time…

I never read whether it’s a good thing or not, but wonder if giving them a day off worth it? I really do hope it will progress with Jack & Vivian, especially now you’ve had her in the home and gotten to know her some. Sending you plenty of (((((Bonding Vibes))))) !

[BinkyBunny]

Thanks Jersey! I really appreciate that. It does help to remember “just a bad day”. I sure hope it works out too. I think I am worried only because I’ve done five bondings, and only one that didn’t work, the other pair-ups bonded rather quickly – progressed well within the first week and continued to bond progress well the weeks after, but these two remind me of Bailey and Rucy – where they would groom each other and yet fight, (and that took 8 months total  before I gave up on Rucy and Bailey) so I think I could be a bit more worried. I can handle the slow progression, it’s the “I love you, cuddle with you….I hate you and want you dead”  that makes me indentify this situation with the Rucy and Bailey’s experience.

And maybe I’m also more worried because I just feel for Jack because though Rucy was a diva with humans, she wasn’t nippy with him. So with her loss, and wanting him to have a friend, I actually might feel sorry for him too. So I may be just too emotional about it, and so maybe it would be better to have Marcy take over. I really do trust her though because she knows so much more than I do about more challenging bonding – so I will do whatever she says.

I also think I am also comparing this “bunny dating” to my last bunny dating experience. Both Bunny dating experience before – they progressed so well – A tiff or two, chasing etc, but no real all out gloves down fighting. So I was hoping that this would happen as well this time. My expectations may be too high. I DO know that if I didn’t bunny date, and I picked MY first choice, Odessa, it would have been ten times worse, so I know the benefits still of bunny dating. But they had a fight tonight (no damage really done just fur flying), but this set them back I think. I REALLY want Vivian to work, so hopefully Marcy can help put things in the right direction.

Thank you so much for the bonding vibes! I think I will need them more than the bunnies! HAHA!

[BinkyBunny]

Okay, so I think today, since it’s a Saturday, and the house is a mess, I will just do some short bonding sessions throughout the day between cleaning, and see if I can get them to gain back a little trust. (however if they are in kill mode still – I’ll give them the day off) I’m sure Marcy will contact me soon, but even if she takes them to bond, it won’t hurt to do this IF it helps them move forward. Well, hopefully if this all works out, I think it will be good for people to see the “drama” of it all no matter what the outcome. Geesh! Valium please.

[LittlePuffyTail]

Good luck! I’ll be following these posts to see how it goes. I need motivation (and ideas) for bonding my two that I’ve been putting off forever.

[MimzMum]

Sorry I haven’t been onilne in awhile, so I kind of skimmed this thread…but I have to say I wish I could get Jack and Pip together. We’d see who could mount who the most before each bunny tuckered themselves out! 0_o
I hope things are going better for Jack and Viv, and if Marcy is going to get involved then I’ll bet it’s a sure thing before long. She seems to be amazing with bonding issues. I’m so jealous that you guys have her to turn to!

Jack seriously…a word of advice…buy her dinner and a movie first at least! Sheesh! ^_^

[BinkyBunny]

Well, I did try. Today we did several small bonding sessions, Jack was better and would want to snuggle pretty much right away for most of them, but Vivian, I think she’s done with him, and she seems just unhappy. Poor thing. I will stop bonding until I know what my next move will be. I’ll keep you updated!

[babybunsmum]

oh boy that must be hard! when all you want is for them to be happy. don’t forget markus’ trials and tribulations with maryann and dono… jack and viv may just find a way to sort it out yet! (((happy happy bonding vibes)))

[BinkyBunny]

Thanks for the vibes! 
So today I went to SaveABunny so Marcy could watch and see what is going on.  Of course ,for the first hour Vivian and Jack  were gems – I’m sure just to make me look freaky and psychotically anxious. (okay, so maybe I am, but they don’t have to make it sooo obvious!)

I learned so much today! (on may way home I typed as much as I could remember into my blackberry)  I mean there is still no gaurantee this will work but Marcy said that there are enough positive signs that really it’s too early in the game to know for sure.  They do have issues, but  they might be able to work out these issues.  So she had great information and advice that I am going to learn from and follow!

I would have loved to have just left them there and paid her to bond them for me, but she made a good point that this is a great opportunity for me learn about  what normally happens (I’ve been rather lucky,  I’ll get to that later)  and try and work through it.  That way I can also share it with you so we can all learn. (note though – that what may work for this bonding experience may not be what will work for yours.) 

So here is the info and tips that I will learn from and  use from this point on:

1. Bunnies that will fight doesn’t equate an unworkable situation or even necessarily mean it will be long haul to success: I  learned  that I really have been lucky when it has comes to my bonding experiences before.  No SERIOUS fights really except for with Rucy and Bailey.  I’ve dealt with aggressive body language, lunges, threats, chasing, hair pulling and nips but the all out fighting was only with Rucy and Bailey, and that just ended not working. So with Vivian and Jack, I need to make sure to be careful to not equate the more serious aggression signs with it not being able to  work.  Obviously Markus’s bunnies also prove that,  but when it’s your own bunnies, it can be harder to see that at the moment.

2. Relax!!  (Do drugs and alcohol): JUST kidding!  Though a glass of wine is a great recommendation for me.  Marcy completely understood that when it is our own bunnies, this bonding thing can make us very nervous which can affect the bonding.  I completely know that and understand that.  I advise people to settle down all the time.  I just didn’t do that myself. I notice that I can become totally freakafied regardless of what I know.  So I will have a glass of wine, and/or just settle my mind before bonding. She even suggested to just try and pretend that they are not my bunnies.  Basically just try to get the heck out of my own way with all the nerves.   Obviously still be alert, but don’t get overly worked up.   That will really be a big one.

3. Use the water-bottle.  She did say this doesn’t always work for some bunnies. Some don’t care, and they just get soaked. But it seemed to work though when Marcy did this with Jack and Vivian. I just have to calm my nerves… and aim correctly.   When I did it, you would have thought I was blind and had coordination issues.   It was ridiculous – like “Watch out for the geek with the water bottle!  She’ll squirt anything and everything except for what she was supposed to be aiming at!”   So….yeah…I have to settle down and get better with that.

4.  Just go slower from this point with these two, and of course, as I already know settle on a good note.  So to just try an hour a day.  For the most part they do well within an hour.   A good note can just be them hanging out near each other – they don’t necessarily have to be grooming etc.  I did know this, but I needed a reminder.   She reminded me that this will also  help with MY stress level, and I know in turn that will help the whole process.

5. Try housing them away from each other only because  - Jack  seems to do better, at least right now,  when he is back in his own place. He is more relaxed.   Plus he is not bothering Vivian as he tries to get through the pen, and since Vivian makes any place her home very quickly that having tthe pens near each other could  be making them more territorial.   With THESE two, having them next to each other in the pen, may be not helping at this point.  So for now we are just going keep them separated  between bondings.  But if this arrangement seems to escalate the mounting (Jack not being used to her near him and seeing her as a novelty again), then I’ll go back to having them next to each other. 

6. That I’m not stuck if this really ends up not working out:    Having Marcy to help me through this and knowing we will work out a solutuion one way or another is the BIGGEST stress reliever. Though I am sure I could stress her out with my million and one questions -  however,  you would never know it.  She was very patient  – all the while juggling other adopters, volunteers and  the “stressed out geek with poor aim”   All she asks is that I give it a fair try before throwing in the towel.  So that’s what I am going to do.

Oh,  and there is something else I learned today.  That bowing of the head from bunnies can be just a non-threatening greeting. I knew that it could mean a passive request or a dominant demand for grooming, depending on the rest of the body language, but it is also seen as a greeting.  There were some potential adopters there meeting bunnies and this subject came up.

Well, that’s it for now.  I’ll keep you updated.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

WOW Just catching up on all this-I love those pictures! Jack appears very eager -how sweet!!

I think the relax and take it slow help are totally the most important ones-this is stressful, the worst part of bringing home a new bunny, but I just know you’ll work them through it {{Bonding Vibes}}

[jerseygirl]

I’m just realising how lucky I am to be doing 1st time bunny bonding whilst you are bonding Jack & Vivian. Having this active thread and current feedback is really helpful.   Though specific to your situ, still relevant to anyone bonding their crew.  No#2 is a goody. Maybe I’ll pour myself a port or scotch tonight. It is getting chilly in the bathroom.   I had to laugh though, with your:

When I did it, you would have thought I was blind and had coordination issues. It was ridiculous – like “Watch out for the geek with the water bottle! She’ll squirt anything and everything except for what she was supposed to be aiming at!”

….and the earlier reference to wine – haha. Blind and un-co huh?!
Lunge, nip, squirt, swig, repeat!

Good to know about the head lowering! It certainly looks like a shy “Hello” sometimes. 

[MarkBun]

Posted By BinkyBunny on 04/26/2009 09:01 PM

 I need to make sure to be careful to not equate the more serious aggression signs with it not being able to  work.  Obviously Markus’s bunnies also prove that,  but when it’s your own bunnies, it can be harder to see that at the moment.

 

That is very true.  I do think that Maryann’s aggression actions were a bit more… bold? than others though.  I had just about reached the point though of throwing them both into an X-pen, putting a lid on it and going out to see a movie and let them work it out. 

[Beka27]

Give it time. I broke the rules with Max and Mead (no bunny dating) and she was AWFUL for the first week, week and a half, but once she settled down, they bonded quickly… only 3 weeks. I’m very fortunate that I didn’t have the humping to deal with during bonding… If Meadow passed on and I had to bond Max to another girl, I think I’d have a harder time now that he knows he loves to mount.

[BinkyBunny]

Posted By jerseygirl on 04/27/2009 01:27 AM 

….and the earlier reference to wine – haha. Blind and un-co huh?!
Lunge, nip, squirt, swig, repeat!

Exactly! HAHA!  Very accurate description of tonights episode actually.

Posted By Markusdark

…I had just about reached the point though of throwing them both into an X-pen, putting a lid on it and going out to see a movie and let them work it out.

I hear ya!! Believe me! Especially back when I was trying to bond Rucy and Bailey. And I did forget about when I was bonding Bailey and Jack and though it took only about three weeks, within that time, he almost ripped her ear clean off. So that was another reason I am anxious suffering from PTBD – Post Traumatic Bonding Disorder!

 

[BinkyBunny]

DAY 11 -  (Day 1 after “Refresher Course from SaveABunny”)
 

Today the Water bottle and Wine bottle were my best friends!

Stress Factor: I was having a very stressful day and didn’t get settled in until late, so I decided I would not bond today as that would not help this process, but then later in the evening I started to relax.  Wine helped further that along.  So I waited until I was out of the stress zone, and decided to give it a try.  That made a big difference on how I reacted even if they were a little stressed during bonding.

Water Bottle:  That really worked again to stop fights. So as long as that works, I will keep using this.

Actual Session:  Right away Jack wanted to mount like he had never seen her before.  I decided to reconsider them being completely separated when they are not bonding.  I thought maybe that having them in pens next to each other was making Vivian more territorial and stressing out Jack as his poops were getting smaller (He’s back to normal now that he has been back in the bunnyroom) but having them completely separated (not penned near each other) has made Jack the mounting monster once again.  For right now, I just put him back in the pen next to Vivian, and if he stops eating and his poops get smaller again, then I’ll figure something out – like I may have to put Jack in the bunny room at night (which is when he eats) and keep him next to Vivian during the day to help him get used to her.

 The one good thing about this though is though Vivian lunged, nipped and growled at his attempts and he returned in kind, so what is good about that you ask?! – there was alot of bluffing that the water bottle stopped from escalating and then Vivian started doing the “leap frog” escape. So she was not “fighting” but looking at ways to run away. I would rather have that then them going at each other.  Rucy used to do the leap frog with Forrest. (pre-Jack) and they bonded three days later.  So you just never know!

The other good thing is that Vivian would bow her head and not fight at his approach. That’s good!

The bad thing is that Jack would want to mount and THAT would cause a bluffing, nipping and pre-fighting behaviors.. But the good thing is that the squirt bottle stopped it from escalating.  They’d stop and start grooming themselves near each other to wash off after the squirt shower.

I finally got into the pen with them to help them along to re-establish their cuddle skills, and left it on a good note with them face to face, Jack gave a half-hearted two or three lick groom,and then put his head next to Vivians.

That’s how I ended it.  It wasn’t an hour, but maybe 40 minutes.   I didn’t want to push it when they seemed to have had to start over in some respects.

Tomorrow, I will try the car ride first as that does seem to help them. (though I haven’t figured out yet if that just prolongs them getting to their issues…as they always eventually get into it, or if it helps bond them in THIS case.  I need to ask Marcy about this.)

Sorry no pics as I did it around midnight and the lights are low. 

[RabbitPam]

Having read several of the bonding threads, ie. Max & Meadow, Maryann & Dono, it seems that it does take much longer to bond than you would want it to. Vivian hasn’t been with you all that long, and this is a lot of change for her, so I think time is on your side.

I have a question: do you do any bonding with Vivian yourself? I mean, do you visit and cuddle with her alone to get her used to being in her new home? I’d hate to see you get closer to her only to have to bring her back, but she probably would benefit from feeling secure with her humans too. Maybe Jack needs some alone time with you also. (Some stress free cuddling with the huge bunny-Mom in the room.) I have no idea if that effects their bonding with each other, but it may be like the old enema joke – it couldn’t hurt.

[MooBunnay]

Thats a good point Rabbitpam – do you think that Vivian might be having some jealousy issues? Maybe she understands that Jack is really the man of the house and so is acting overly aggressive to make up for it. Or maybe I’m psychoanalyzing bunnies too much But mine are pretty smart that way! I really think Raymond stops eating just because he knows it will get him some attention.

[BinkyBunny]

Things went very well today! The squirt bottle was still needed, but for the most part they behaved themselves – though I did catch Vivian before she snuck in a bunny butt nip. The session was just a little over and hour and ended in mutual grooming. The biggest thing is that I am relaxed. OH, and I also decided to put Jack back in the pen next to her last night to see if that would help take away the “novelty” thing and since he was back to eating normally, I figured it was worth a try. It seemed to keep him more calm today.

I have photos of this that I will post tomorrow. I just am crazy busy and am just starting to check the board right now, so I don’t have time, but I got some good ones.

RabbitPam – Great points! I do think it would be a good idea to make her feel comforted and safe so she may be able to come into the session feeling calmer. I do give them love and affection on their own, but I know I had been holding back a little with Vivian because I was afraid to get too close if it didn’t work out. I had also asked Marcy about this, but Vivian is a tough girl, who adapts easily so I just have to remember that she will be okay either way so to just go ahead and give her more affection.

MooBunnay – I think Jack can be jealous, but Vivian seems to be a take it or leave it gal. But Jacks way of getting jealous is to just run over and say “PET ME TOO!”, he doesn’t seem to get aggressive at that point.

All and all today was a really great step in the right direction

[BinkyBunny]

Quick update – things are really progressing well. I just need to post about it! Haven’t had much time lately. I will try to get thing updated w/photos this weekend.

[bunnyluvr]

That’s such wonderful news! Glad to hear things are going well for them and you! Looking forward to the update and photos.

[BinkyBunny]

So it’s been going well in many respects.  The only thing that still worries me is that Jack really just can’t stop his rude humping;   I’ve mellowed out alot, approach the whole thing very relaxed, which in turn has helped all around with the many things.  Vivian has stopped being nippy and is very nice to Jack.  And though he has mellowed out some too, he has that ridiculous humping habit that is a bit beyond the norm   He gets everything he wants – she will groom him, allow him to eat first, allow him to push her out of the box, allow him to mark, where she will only mark very minimally if at all, and just do all the “passive” things that allow him to establish dominance.  But what does he do?  He just wants to mount – so RUDE!  When he settles down and lies down, she will shyly and delicately approach him to cuddle.  And then what does he do?  Wants to mount! 

I will give it a little more time, of course, but we are wondering if this really is something we can stop  and if we can’t then Vivian is not the right gal for him because she will not put up with it.   He may need to be a solo bunny or find a bunny that will put up with it like Rucy did. 

But we are keeping our fingers crossed that time will and training will help settle Jack down.

Here are some funny photos that represent our typical bonding days.

 

Whenever Vivian grooms herself, Jack  wants to be groomed – he has no shame – here he is in the litterbox, stops his business to demand grooming.

 

This is SOOOO typical of Vivian’s sly way to sneak in a bunny bite (getting closer and closer).  Vivian would try to sneak in bunny butt bites in this case.  However, she no longer does this.  She might give a little bluff of a bite, but really, all in all,  she has been cured of the bunny butt bites.  I love this photo though – just so funny of her the “sneak-up bite that butt” look.

 

 

Jack and Vivian not paying much mind to each other – but of course that is only temporary due to JACK!!

Vivian will even groom him and not just a little token lick, she’ll clean his face and ears etc, but then…..

 

 

This is Jacks, “I am going to hump you look”.  You can’t tell here, but his tail is up and I know this look well.  Notice he is very wet.  He has tried this a MILLION times before.  The ONLY good thing is that Vivian is not fighting like she used to – just hunching up waiting for us to tell him NO.

 

After squirting him, he backs off (though he is starting to pursue regardless) and then they just hang for  a bit before…..

 

 

He tries again.  I stop him from going any further, but I am beginning to wonder I could EVER leave them alone because Jack has always done this.  Even with Rucy.   I just can only hope he’ll get tired and try less and less because right now Vivian is being very good.

 

 THIS IS THEIR TEMPORARY enclosure

 I do end the session on a good note with them relaxing before I put them back in there pen, but it doesn’t matter, all Jack wants to do is chew on the pen throughout the night off and on. 

They would be bonded by now i f it wasn’t for Jack’s totally annoying behavior!

I will give  it a bit more time though and just see if he settles, but it’s the second week and though he doesn’t fight at all, I  am beginning to wonder if he really could ever settle down this humping behavior.  He can get so focused, can’t hear the clicker (for training) and is beginning to be immune to the water!

I really like Vivian -she is a sweetheart and has mellowed quite a bit and put up with his approached more – but only to a point.

So far this really has been the way things have been going.   They don’t hate each other or anything, but if I didn’t stop Jack when he goes through his humping stages, I’m sure it would go back to what is was earlier.

Wish us luck!

 

[jerseygirl]

I do wonder, if they bond, that this may be the dynamic between them. From what was initially said about Vivian, she holds her own and speaks her mind. She just may not ever be passive in this like Rucy was – but is that totally not workable? Maybe Jack will be a mounter and Vivian will not take it bluff bite and and that’s how it’ll be between them. But generally, they may co-habit quite nicely. How does Jack react to her telling him “No” ? Does it trigger a fight? Or is it and endless cycle? (He tries to mount, she sets him in his place. They ignore one another until they repeat the scenario?) Can Marcy observe them in your own home?

Surely it’s common for husbunds to have an annoying habit that triggers the same reaction time and time again in their wives. Creating a tension.  But that aside, everything else is sweet.  Yes? lol

[BinkyBunny]

IF, Jack would ignore after his attempts without our intervening that would be helpful. We have to intervene. He won’t be the first to fight (he’s an annoying lover, not a fighter ) But when she gives him a nice warning growl and lunge, nip, he just keeps on even more persistent and we have to stop before it gets serious. The improvement has been that Vivian is much nicer to him now regardless, less resentments, less grudge and in turn that makes not aggressive with her first warnings. He doesn’t try to fight her right away, so aggression all around has settled down, however, he will push it though to the point she will  fight him.  

The cycle so far is he tries, she gives a warning, he gets crazy persistent, we stop him, they then ignore each other, then he’ll come over to either try to mount or to groom, many times we turn the mount request into a groom request ourselves, (he literally will be humping the ground to settle as we encourage him to turn the mount into a groom request) and that helps, but then they’ll lay next to each other, Vivian grooms him alot, and then bam, he’s ready for some action, and we stop him, they ignore each other, and the cycle begins.

Last night, it was the first time that Steve admitted, “I don’t know about this, he’s always going to do this even at a lesser level, and we can’t be around all the time to watch them.”

Rucy wouldn’t always allow Jack to mount – most of the time she wouldn’t.  Her strategy of shaking her head and running away at all of his advances did slow him down, and he’d eventually stop.  Rucy would only occasionally box him, but for the most part she would just move away from him or allow him to mount. (this pursuit was seen alot of the webcams I guess)   She never took a fight back approach and Jack seemed fine with her running away.  He wouldn’t get mad.  I think the fight back thing makes him even more determined as it becomes less about his need to mount for mounting sake and turns into the dominance thing.

Arggh to Jack!

 

UPDATE: I think what I am going to try is to give them more running room than just the xpen and see if giving more freedom – for her to run will help.  I can see how persistent Jack  is then, and if more space is all they need to solve this problem.

[bunnytowne]

OH here is the posts about jack and vivian…. oh duh Kawthar….

awe Jack is being a pain I can seee…..Well…. even if you have to keep them seperated they still have each others company.. I know how bad you want them to get along…..  hopefully Jack will get over his problem…

[MimzMum]

I am wondering too if Jack, realizing that this is not Rucy nor Bailey-each who had health problems and appeared to be somewhat ‘delicate’ (?)- perhaps thinks Vivian can handle a little more man-handling? This could be frustration that’s been building for awhile and now that he has a very strong and healthy perspective mate, he’s maybe making up for any restraint he may have shown before?

Of course, I’m anthropomorphizing…but it’s the impression I get. I do think you are right on about the aggression turning his dominance into overdrive. Poor Viv.

Come on, Jack. You gotta relax buddy! ((((((((((calming vibes for Jack)))))))))))))))

[BinkyBunny]

So I did give more space  in bonding for Vivian to run, and that did help with her part, but Jack was still a freak.  I did notice some “glimpses” of hope of him redirecting, but they were very few.  He tried for almost the whole two hours straight except for two “exhaustion” breaks and two grooming sessions (shorter).

This set-up is better for Vivian, but wow, Jack…Jack…Jack.   I will keep trying and just see if time and some training will wear him down, but if in two weeks this is not getting ANY better or if it gets worse and I feel it’s just becoming too stressful for Vivian (and me!) within the two weeks, I will throw in the towel with this pair. 

If this doesn’t work with Jack, Vivian could use a more dignified bunny so SaveABunny may be able to find her a better mate with another adopter   (Vivian loves to snuggle with Jack and groom him, so I know she would do that with a less “rude” bunny.)   That’s the one great thing about bunny dating is that you are not stuck with a pair that won’t work.  They work with you to help with this process even if it means finding another mate for your bunny.   I do hope that jack doesn’t end up being a solo bunny as it may be hard to find another bunny that will put up him, but who knows. 

BT: Though I really care about Vivian and so wanted to give her a home (I think both SAB and I want this so much due to her circumstances),  I am not doing the separate cage thing ever again if I can help it – which is one of the main reasons I went this bunny dating route. I did the separate cage thing for years with Bailey separated out.  I’ve done my time with health problems, poop wars and divided time.  Having one OR a pair that will get along allows me to have the freedom to give more love and attention.  It’s so much more amazing, for me personally, to be able to focus on one or two bunnies and get to know them so well, and have them be even more in my life when they are mostly free range.  It really is a different experience that I enjoy so much more.

I so wanted to give Vivian a home due to her circumstances but not if I have to go back to dealing with it the way I was from the get-go. I will not willingly go into this situation as separated bunnies.   SaveABunny is a wonderful loving place and she will not lack care and love there if it doesn’t work out.   If I went out and just adopted a bunny and brought her home, (like I did with Bailey), then I would just deal with it, but I learned from that which is why I went the bunny dating route with SaveABunny. 
 

Keeping fingers crossed that somehow though this will end up working.  
 

[PEPPA GEORGIE]

This is prob a silly suggestion and prob too much to test without causing more chaos but what about a third mate to distract jack, a more laid back tollerant one he can take his urges out on and even things out a bit x Although the practicalities of trying might not work. x Although the difference may make you see if jack is actually more suited to another bunny, but would be sad for vivian to have to go back. Sorry not really very helpfull, just sometimes find the most bizarre and unthinkable options sometimes really work xxx Hope they get on better today xx

[RabbitPam]

Jusr read your posts from the last two days and had a thought that is a bit strange. (Peppa, your suggestion was not silly at all!)  Is it possible that Jack is not completely neutered? Could his excessive aggression be due to his having some hormonal drive that’s still present? I know that in a human female, a partial hysterectomy will leave ovaries, and therefore drive, intact. Can that happen with males? Could some of the surgery have missed all or part of his organs that’s not visible anymore but still activated? (And could you tell with an xray or exam?) It might account for his excessive mounting for years. If the impulse from his brain is still being received and acted upon, he might still be mounting.

Maybe there’s some sort of training that will make following up on the impulse distasteful to him, (squirt bottle doesn’t work) like a drop of vinegar on Viv’s butt so he is repulsed by her. (Something harmless to her or that won’t upset her as well. Can’t think of another suggestion but you get my drift.)

I would just hate to see you have to return her because you will be faced with this with any bunny since Jack is the problem. She seems to be doing so well with you and showing great improvement. I don’t want to make a hard decision worse, but it would be lovely if you could get to a definitive change in Jack’s behavior since he otherwise seems to do very well with Vivian. Can Marcy take them for several days of bonding in strange territory?

[BB Administrator]

Op…this is BinkyBunny in Admin mode – working on site stuff.

Pam – I’ve talked to the vet several times about this before because he was such a nuisance at times (not THIS bad though). We have had him checked and she just said some males can be like this if they have had kits already and were neutered later,(she said it can be diminished, but it will be a tall order to stop since this is more instinctual than hormonal), however, if he was as crazy as he is now with Rucy, (which he wasn’t this bad) they would have gone further to test if was some other health issue. There can be medical reasons for this – some pituitary problem (can’t remember off the top of my head). But it may be something to revisit.  He was like this with Bailey too, but she also allowed him to mount which settled him down I think (the only reason they weren’t fully bonded is because Rucy and Bailey had to be separated, but Jack and Bailey would have playdates)

I think he’s getting more whacky because he is not allowed to mount now. It turns into a dominance move.

Peppa – Not a silly question – very caring. I really do understand the sad thought of her going back to SaveABunny, believe me. This is not easy. I am not ready to try to bond even more bunnies or just take in three bunnies. If that didn’t work out I would be looking at even harder situation. As it will be hard enough to make the decision I may already have make if this doesn’t work.

I will definitely rely on Marcy for bonding as a last resort for bonding. If it doesn’t work, it may be that Jack will need to be solo bunny if I can’t get him to calm down.

IF this doesn’t work, this decision won’t be made easily.  I want Jack to have a buddy, and I would love to have Vivian have a buddy, but I don’t want to take on three or  four, and Vivian deserves a better partner than one that stresses her out, and Jack could use a buddy that may allow him to mount, or not take him to overdrive -  not good for him either as he gets all stressed too. (as of right now, he is chewing on the xpen to get to her- he can do this off and on for hours and hours)

So this week, just send off those “calm down Jack” vibes, and I will continue to work with him. Right now I catch him just at that “look”. It’s amazing he can hump the ground and the air for a few seconds when I stop him.  Hoping time and training will help.

 

 

Helloworld!!

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

{{{{CALM down Jack}}}} I hope it works!

[babybunsmum]

bb i can totally understand your position!

i can also attest to the difficulty of have 2 unbonded buns separately caged. the separate housing wasn’t too bad – i have plenty of space for it – and i worked at home when i had 2 bun buns so ‘free roam time’ for each separately was workable too. but boy-oh-boy was it a lot of work to clean up after them! baby’s territorial marking was relentless.  since baby bun passed away – bless her wee heart – keeping pinky’s area clean is such a breeze i can hardly believe it. it really really does allow me a lot more time to snuggle and play with her. a much better life for a bun and for a human slave too! i, too, would not again have 2 or more buns unless they were bonded.

(((((((((calming bonding vibes for jack and lots of patience vibes for viv and the human slaves!)))))))))

[MimzMum]

I have three separate right now, as you all know, and the work to get all three cleaned up and then give each their separate exercise time…well it’s just not to be believed. So I totally empathize with you on that, Jen. Yes, both Jack and Vivian deserve to find that ‘special’ bunny, and I do hope they can work it out together. But if not, it’s good to know that SAB will help Vivian out again.

*sniffle* I wish there was a non-humping bunny like Vivian up here. That sounds like Mimzy’s kind of girl! ^_^

((((Come on Jack! Calm down! Don’t miss out on a good thing!)))

[BinkyBunny]

Thanks for the understanding, I really do appreciate it.  I have done the separate cage thing most of the time except for in 2002, but then this past year with just one set-up (bunnyroom) and experiencing the benefits for both humans and bunnies alike has been just incredible. And yes, the cleaning aspect is so much easier, HUGE difference since poop wars outside of the pens too are no longer happening – but also I have the whole bunnyroom to go and hang out with them, or they (Jack & Rucy) would come out and visit us at any time in the evenings. Now it is so much more fun all around.  A great life for all of us.  

Also, THANK YOU FOR THE VIBES because in today’s bonding we noticed a little ray of light to keep us hopeful.  This is what happened:

We have been giving a little more running room to allow Vivian to flee more – this has helped.  Jack, of course, wanted to mount right away, and today, the water bottle seemed to be a refreshing shower instead of a deterrent, and because of that Vivian got to speak up and tell Jack off before we could stop him.  This actually was a blessing.   The difference today is that he did not get aggressive at all with her nips, growls, kicks and punches.   So once we noticed that her attempts to fight him off were not actually serious we would allow them to a point and that deterred Jack a bit. 

It was like at first when she would nip and run, he seemed to get excited and thought she was up for the mating game and he would continue to pursue, but then when she nip, growl and punch, or leap and kick, he stood back and he looked so confused as if to say, “Bbbut…Why? I thought we were having fun?”  

 Before, he would growl and get mean when she would show more aggression, but maybe as time has passed and because she is nice to him and will groomed him when he is on his best behavior, this has changed his tune. 

I allowed Vivian to express herself as long as it didn’t really hurt Jack (maybe his ego), and as long as he didn’t retaliate. 
I did  still have to stop it a few times:

1. Once where I thought Jack was going to trap her and mount her the wrong way
2.  Another time when I was afraid it could escalate – just wasn’t sure.
3. Sometimes to give Vivian a break. She would get very tired. It’s not like she has the stamina like Jack (Being a free-range bunny)

But the other times, Jack stopped when Vivian got some serious bluffing displays or he just got tired of chasing her around(hence another good reason for more space in this case) .

Vivian has this great “Shock and Awe Leap Frog Kick” – some bunny kung-fu.   She leaps over him, gives him a little kick with her foot on the way down. (It’s not hard, otherwise I wouldn’t allow it to happen).  This really does stop Jack from chasing her, part of the reason is he can’t figure out where she just went!

It was hard to watch my adorable Jack learn his lesson from her, but at least today, this was helping him to settle down.  Amazingly, as much as Vivian would show him what’s what, she would not mind his gentle approaches, and she would even gently approach him and try to groom him.   There was one time that Jack approached her and he soooo badly wanted to mount her but he didn’t want to get in trouble with her again, so he sort of slowly crawled up to her (nose to nose) while humping the ground.  I wish I could get video of this, but today I was too focused on stepping in when I needed to.   I’ll have to recruite Steve to be the cameraman.

Another time Jack just went to lay down instead of mounting- He was all stretched out, but it was VERY obvious, (if ya know what I mean), that his little guy was ready for action, and it looked like he was trying to settle himself down regardless of the extra alertness.

It looks like that though the water bottle and our voices can be a temporary deterrent at some points, the best lesson so far has been coming straight from Vivian.

I did call Marcy to make sure that allowing this would be okay, and as long as they don’t get into some serious scuffles, then this might be the way they can work it out.   As long as I give Vivian rest breaks so she doesn’t get too mad, and as long as Jack doesn’t  turn on her, then I’ll keep trying it this way.    The wonderful thing about Vivian today is that she wouldn’t hold a grudge.  She was as inviting and as loving as ever with Jack when he would behave himself.  She doesn’t have the “I hate your fuzzy face”  attitude she did a week and half ago.

So I will celebrate today.   Not think about tomorrow.

NOTE: another thing I am doing is giving Jack more running time out when Vivian is snoozing in her pen.  Since he is used to being  free, it  can’t be helping to have him in bonding pen so much.  I also give VIvian some free time out too, but after about 20 minutes she wants to go back to the security of her pen, and so I just allower her to move at her own pace with exploration.

[jerseygirl]

Earlier I was going to say that I wished setting down the ”Play nice or we’ll take it away” law would work, but on this recent update, things look more promising. Lol, poor Jack. It must be excitement related perhaps. It really seems like they’re learning to communicate to one another as individuals, not just bunny to bunny. It’s one of the things I’ve really noticed between my pair – how much they’re becoming trusting and calling each others bluffs. If bunnies could roll their eyes…I’m sure I would have seen it many times over!
(((More vibes))) Obviously Vivian can see that Jacks a lovey dovey behind the humping instinct – lol.

[PEPPA GEORGIE]

Oh that is good news, sending more good luck to you.
Totaly understand what you mean about possibly going from frying pan into fire sort of thing.
I am starting to get a feeling that it will work out just fine. A big learning curve for both bunnies. I imagine once they get to know each other more they will learn the limits and hopefully respect that and not go over the line so to speak.
In theory as time goes on Jack urges should get a bit less as the novelty wears off and so doesnt get quite so excited bless him.
I supose she will teach him in the way we teach them and he will get groomed when he is good and not when he is bad so he will start to realise there are benefits from leaving her alone on que sort of thing xxx You can give bachs flower escence remedy called rescue remedy to animals and babies as well as adults and it calms and reassures, dont know if you have that over with you but a few drops in their water might relax things a little.xx

[3crazybuns]

I’ve really been reading and studying this thread, Thank you so much for posting updates, and progress reports, I’m waiting for Oreo’s neuter, and then we will be getting him a mate, he too is a father, so I’m sure it will be interesting.

[RabbitPam]

That sounds so much better, BB. I am unfamiliar with bonding but I’ve read many of you advise to leave them to work it out and even hide from view (while secretly watching them) so they do so, rather than be an added element in their bonding time. Sounds like they are doing very well.

I had a question pop to mind that is still lurking: Does Vivian ever let Jack mount her? I mean, what is so bad about him doing it once in a while? I know it’s mostly dominance, though for him it’s also excitement, but bunnies are very quick and I don’t imagine he’d hurt her in the process, would he? I just wonder. Is she trying to establish dominance with him? I don’t think you’ve said she’s ever tried to mount him at all. Just wondering if it needs to be fought off or curtailed each and every time.

[MarkBun]

I think that you are about at the point that you need to let Vivian ‘inform’ Jack about how things are going to be. It always sound bad to hear but at some point, they jus have to work things out between themselves. It seems that you are fast approching that point.

[KitD]

Maybe you should keep your spray bottle in the fridge- to get more of the desired effect.

[BB Administrator]

This is binkybunny in admin mode again

I’ll be hiding up on the big chair nearby ready to separate a fight! Also, I have to give Vivian breaks. While she is trying to catch her breath, I encourage Jack to just rest near her (it’s goofy, but I say “rubby, rubby” or scratch a little on the floor, and he knows those two things mean he’ll get groomed.) So I’ll do that near her, and  he’ll come over and she ends up grooming him, and then I back away once I feel she’s had some resting time. (she gets thoroughly exhausted).

Marcy also had said before that being in there to help them isn’t a bad thing, but after my description of what is happening then it is okay to continue to let Vivian tell him off but also prevent it from getting too serious. I am careful because I also know Jack can get mean as in the ONLY fight that he has had – was an incident he had with Bailey a long time ago – he ripped her ear in half. (it was sewn back together). I think though that he’s not one to start a fight, but that he can fight back. So far Vivian doesn’t run up to him to fight. She just defends her “virtue” and since he stopped retaliating, letting Vivian tell him off may work now. Time will tell

I’ll be bonding again in a couple of hours and post an update later.

Keep the vibes a comin’

 

UPDATE: OH rabbitpam – i forgot to answer your question about allowing Vivian to be mounted.  I would allow it if she would allow it. I would just pet her and comfort her while she was being mounted.  She will not allow him to do it.  She wants nothing to do with it AT ALL.  She is also bigger han Rucy and can’t be easily forced by him.  She whips around to face him or runs away.  She knows his body language and knows the difference between his “mount” approach and “groom” approach, and every time he does the mount approach she gives him some strong words. The closest he’s been able to come is getting his front chest higher up on her backside and she turns around to nip and box, or run.

Helloworld!!

[MooBunnay]

I’ll send some **calm down** vibes over for Jack! It does sound to me like you are making a lot of progress though from reading your posts. Since you are the one doing the bonding, it may be harder for you to tell the progress you’ve made, but I think that it really sounds like some important break-throughs are being made!

Maybe you need to give Mr. Expert bonder Markusdark a call (I think at one point he discussed chasing the two bunnies around in a gorilla suit? )

[MimzMum]

Ohmygoodness…I am sending some extra calming and happy vibes for you and the bunnies! ((((((((((((((((mellowness))))))))))))) I sure do hope they manage to work this out!

lolz…Bunny soap opera. I’m hanging on every post, each one is a cliffhanger! ^_^

[BinkyBunny]

The vibes are working, people! Things went very well today. I only had to separate them once, and helped them cuddle a couple of times, and one time they just did it on their own. I made a funny video about it, but then just now the video program crashed and I lost everything. I will redo in a bit after I calm down (still in major grrrr mode from the crash).

[Sarita]

It sounds like they are starting to develop some trust! I’m exhausted reading your bonding post. I think it has helped that you are being so tenacious…I think that while tiring for you is helping by you being so consistent and not giving up.

[MarkBun]

Meh, he’s just being a typical guy. In the beginning we can’t keep our paws off of you. Then, things settle down into a nice routine. Then after that… well let’s just say that in a couple of days, Jack should be looking for the remote and tellin’ Viv to get him a beer.

[RabbitPam]

Poor Jack. It seems that Vivian has decided to be buddies, period. Thaks for the description/answer BB.

I think, in a couple of days, it’s Vivian who will have the remote and Jack will be fetching the beer.

[BinkyBunny]

Luckily, Vivian is a nice bossy gal.  Once Jack settles down she grooms him without a problem.

Here is a video of last nights best moment.  FIRST – SORRY for the low quality video - I just used the video feature on my regular camera which seems to have gunk on the lense –  instead of using my video camera because it’s easier to download, but the video isn’t as nice especially when things  are high contrast (like the sun coming into the living room),   So I added some over- the- top  music and a CGed  in some goofy words and hopefully it will make it easier to watch. .

So we took them on a car ride first – and they were much calmer this go around. Jack of course, tried to mount, and we did have to separate them once when they were getting into the aggression spiral, but for the most part, it was just Jack slowly pursuing, Vivan moving away or nipping, but this video shows Vivian and Jack finally coming to an understanding on their own. (doesn’t mean he didn’t continue to try after this) but this video shows some real promise in their relationship.   (and I am sure because I just said that murphey will punish me for that)

 

[jerseygirl]

he he he he he! Funny! I sooo want this to work for you, they’ll make a beautiful pair.
Oh Jack, what big eye’s you have, what big ears you have, what big…ambition you have!
I felt sorry for him for most of it, then thought “little bugger” when he scooted his head under in for a groom.
Can Murphy’s law be undone if someone else says it? Oh well…”The video shows some real promise in their relationship”

btw, like the opening shot thru the Liquid calm – Rescue Remedy for bonders perhaps?

[Miyuki]

Your video commentary was too funny. Loved the wine glass in the beginning! I hope this works out for you!

[BinkyBunny]

Posted By Sarita on 05/06/2009 06:43 AM
  I’m exhausted reading your bonding post. I think it has helped that you are being so tenacious…

Sarita: LOL!  I know, it’s a novel!!   Thanks to all of you who actually drudged through what I have written in this thread! I’m now going to try to do this more with video - less words –   I also don’t expect everyone to get through them all. So long story short for those that don’t want to drudge through the details:  Jack and Vivian seem to be settling down a bit this third week – enough where I can allow them now to work some of this stuff out themselves.  They are much less aggressive.

 

Today though Jack was beyond bothersome in a constant pursuit with very little rest or break time but Vivian handled him well.  We had to separate them again once to prevent it from getting serious, but we left it  on a good note with them just exhausted and stretched a couple of feet apart.

I think today I did two things that may have contributed to Jack’s persistence.  I didn’t do the car ride first, and I waited too late into the evening when I know he has much more energy. (I have been doing them in the afternoon when his energy level is at its lowest).

Though I know they will need to be together when he is more energenic, I am trying to build some sort of trust, relationship, whatever…first.

I’ll keep you updated.

Here’s a video of today’s theme – scufflebutts!  (oh and ignore the laundry on the couch!)

 

[RabbitPam]

1st video: ROFLMAO
It was your captions that got to me – watching paint dry, etc.

It’s really exhausting watching Vivian having to constantly move away. The ending of that session was great, but in the next one everything happens so fast. I just keep wishing that we could give Jack a mounting toy, ie. Toy is for mounting, Vivian is for snuggling. Mount toy, get treat, feel satisfied, go snuggle Vivian, get treat. Get excited, get away from Viv, go mount toy, get treat. Vivian rests.

Well, if bunnies cooperated with our agendas, I would be holding Sammy and trimming her nails right now. Sigh.

[LilynJestersMama]

They are definitely making progress- very cool!

Your descriptions of the bonding sessions and the captions in the videos are hilarious!!

I will keep following the bonding adventures of Jack and Vivian

Sending ‘fall in love’ vibes to them…….ok, wait, Jack already says he tries to show her that he ‘loves’ her everyday! hehe

Sending ‘humpless love’ vibes!

 

[BinkyBunny]

RabbitPam – This is Jack’s current stunt of Vivian.  It’s got Vivian’s fur all on it and he will sniff and lie near it, but I guess the stunt is the marrying type because he won’t have any kind of fling with it. At first when I moved it around he got excited and went nutso, but he then wanted to just get at Vivian, so it made it worse.   However,  the stunt doubles do at least help with calming them when they are away from each other.  Jack does chew on the cage less when he has the stunt double sitting near him, but he doesn’t want to mount it. 

 

[Sarita]

I think he’s onto the stunt double trick. He doesn’t get any reaction out of it like he does Vivian. I wonder if he just got excited because he was afraid you were going to take it away.

[BinkyBunny]

Today went well. I learned from yesterday’s mistake, and this time took them on the car ride first and then made sure to bond them in the afternoon. Though Jack, of course, priority was still mounting – it fell behind napping and food. But there was a few times he sprayed poor Vivian. But they did end up snuggling. Two times i had to “reteach” Jack on how to approach nicely if he wants to get snuggles and not bit, and he started to figure it out. I have that on the video too which may be helpful for bonding tips. Today was 2 1/2 hours total. They could have gone longer, but I had to stop to do some work!

I have some great video but it’s been a long day and I’m too tired to upload etc. Since it’s better to bond in the afternoon, it means I have to play catch-up with work that I couldn’t do while watching them. I’ll post the video this this weekend.

[babybunsmum]

yay! glad to hear the calm vibes have been helping. the vids are great… v.funny commentary… and the buns are sooo sweet. so how many Pi digits did you memorize? lol.

[RabbitPam]

Actually, I was thinking of a stunt double that didn’t smell like Vivian, but like something else. Maybe even like Rucy. So he can hump one and not the other. I wonder if the toy smelling like Vivian isn’t getting humped because he finally got the message from Vivian herself?

I know what you mean about being too tired to post video. I got one (not saying what yet) today but I need to edit or everyone will watch and go “where? I don’t see anything” which means working in Movie Maker…

I think it’s nap time. Sammy is.

[BinkyBunny]

Regarding the stunt double – Well originally the stunt double didn’t have her fur in it (it actually had Bailey’s fur from a long time ago-I don’t have anything anymore that smells like Rucy), not much excitement – but then got he excited at first when I did put Vivian’s scent on it but that just made him want the “real deal”. Like Sarita said, I think he is on to it. He’s just going to have to say goodbye to “hubba hubba” if he wants Vivian in his life I think. I don’t know what the end result here will be but I think my goal is to try and retrain him to get positive reinforcement for stopping all together rather than redirecting, as I doubt that even if he had a stunt double, if Vivian was nearby he would still try with her and that could cause problems, so if there is anyway I can get him to settle that urge down first that may be better for long-term. But ya know, in two weeks I might be getting a rabbit puppet! It’s all so….(hands in the air)

[RabbitPam]

rabbit puppet LOL

How old is Jack now? Cause maybe, like old men (not older, I mean way past the midlife crisis stage) he’ll just lose, well, stamina.
Thank G. they don’t make Viagra for rabbits. (Did I ever tell you I once met the inventor of Viagra? How weird is that?)

[jerseygirl]

Posted By rabbitpam on 05/09/2009 04:53 PM

Thank G. they don’t make Viagra for rabbits. (Did I ever tell you I once met the inventor of Viagra? How weird is that?)

Really? How does that happen?  Was he an  upstanding citizen? *cough*   Ooh, innappropriate?  Pam, you can swoop in and remove it with your magical powers if you feel need too.  more lol.

BB, could you give Jack something to calm him somewhat – not suggesting drugging, just some Rescue Remedy or chammomile if you felt it would help.

 

 

[Hedi]

Jack is just so cute! He is such a pretty bunny and in those videos he looks so sweet and innocent like he is so not the instigator in all of this. lol I know he is a decent weight but he never really looks it on camera.

Poor little boy…getting a bad rap in all of this!

Seriously though-the fact that Vivian is truely willing to even put up with Jacks advances says she cares for him!

Jennifer-will you be able to make vivian a place to escape from Jacks lovins like you did for Rucy (the house up on the ledge?) But arent they the same size so not sure how that will work? Maybe you could build one with a door that vivian could lock for privacy? lol

[BinkyBunny]

Well today – what a mounter nightmare! I couldn’t even leave it on a good note – I even desperately took the stunt double and tried to redirect even though it hasn’t worked before – just anything to try and make him stop (he was crazy for an hour straight!), but Jack literally took the stunt-double out of my hand and threw it aside!! I’ve never seen him like this! I think it was because yesterday I could only bond them for 10 minutes, and then today, even though we went on a car ride, I couldn’jt do it until the evening. And well the evening is is high energy time. He was a complete and total freak.  He’s just been chewing on the pen now again for hours. Looks like I can’t stop bonding them for even a day and night-time bonding is out of the question right now regardless of a car ride. 

Rabbitpam – boy oh boy I hope you are right that age at some point has to play a part in settling him down….right??? yes??? (frantically nodding)

Hedi – yeah that is what worries me -  Jack always tried to mount at least here and there, but since he and Vivian are closer in size,  I can’t do the same “hidey house trick” that I did for Rucy.  I do wish I had a “Bunny Key”!

I am going to call the vet again and just let her know what’s going on now with the Vivian and see if she might think that it’s medical now.

As crazy as it was today, I have a great video to show of his mellow side just day before yesterday – I’m just waiting for it to render right now.
 

[BinkyBunny]

Okay, so here is the video from a couple of days ago. Jack, though still quite annoying, is much more mellow in comparison.  Especially in comparison to today!  (after his ridiculous mounting mission today he chewed on his pen, and is still chewing like a madman off and on again for endless hours! he’s absolutely driving me bonkers!)

 Ignore typo in beginning – I’m too tired to fix it – will tomorrow or later, or never…

[jerseygirl]

I love seeing these videos – so different from webcam! He does that ears forward, tail out alot – is that curiosity? You obviously know his subtle expressions well – why do you caution him in the part near the end when he grooms Vivian a few times? Is that “the look” ?

[BinkyBunny]

Jerseygirl HAHA – yes that’s “the look”, (when he curves his head slightly around her – not directly nose to nose) and the tail up for him is also “I want to mount you” – it can also be a dominant behavior for him – “Listen Lady, I’m the boss of you”  (and aggression depending on the ears). His ears are normally forward so it’s not as aggressive. But he’s getting his “sprayer” ready too! Normally I would just let Vivian correct him, but we had been at it for some time and things were going well, and I wanted to stop the session on a good note (was getting tired) so I didn’t want to digress. Even though the video was about 4 minutes – The whole session was actually about 2 1/2 hours.  I just tried to capture the essence of how the whole thing went.

[RabbitPam]

Your camera work is so good. Thanks for the tip on free sound, btw. I used it today.

Jack’s tail goes straight up when he’s ready to mount, right? Does he ever spin it? When Spockie wanted to mate with my ankles, his tail spun really, really fast (like those toy whirligigs we had as kids that catch the wind) rather than going straight up. Is it just that he was a different kind of bunny, or is it different when they go to mount another bunny?

It’s going beautifully. I think Vivian is becoming a part of the family.

[MooBunnay]

I know I’m only seeing snippets of the session – but they both look really happy to me. I think its really funny when Jack does that little shimmy right after Vivian evades him, as if he really likes that she is playing hard to get! Its also supper sweet to see how well she is grooming Jack. He must have super thick fur because her whole nose disappeared in there

[BinkyBunny]

Moobunnay – yeah is fur is rather thick -thank goodness for him, or her nips could hurt but never gets a scratch on him. It’s funny that you say he likes that she is playing hard to get. He LOVES it! If she runs, he gets very excited. She has to nip him and face him to make him stop.

rabbitpam – Tail up, he’s ready alright. He only spins it when she puts her nose near his tail, and she does the same. I don’t know if it’s to help fill the air with their lovely scent, or a flip off.

Well, today something really different happened. Something I NEVER thought would happen – You’ll have to watch the video to find out.

(It ends abruptly – my fade out wasn’t working today)

 

 

I called Marcy and asked her how to proceed and she advised to give Vivian lots of love and her favorite healthy treats, which is exactly what I did for about an hour afterward.  That seemed to make her happy. 

[Miyuki]

So Jack finally accomplished his task I see LOL. I can’t tell what Vivian was thinking. She looks like she was a bit shaky there sitting outside of the litterbox at the end.

[jerseygirl]

LOL! Even Jack looked a little shocked after the 1st mount! And very pleased with himself at the end of the video. They may have finally gotten over this hurdle at last – lets hope. Extra nose scritches from me to Vivian.  As for Jack…well….Let’s just let him think he’s won like Viivian has. Like he could care less!  He’s probably of somewhere snoozing his little dominant head off.  Gotta give him credit for his persistance!

[BinkyBunny]

miyuki -Yes, I think she was a shaken up. At first I felt so sorry for her as I don’t want her little spirited self to be broken, but I called Marcy and she asked how she was acting afterward to help judge the situation. (After 15 minutes, Vivian went back to eating and pooping)  So Marcy just said to just  give her tons of love and some extra treats and put the “I’m proud of you” vibe out there – and that’s exactly what I did.  She seemed just fine then.

Jersey – HAHAHA – He is so proud of himself and he has been relaxed or “snoozing his dominant head off”! He has been the quietest I’ve ever heard him since this whole thing started. (I think he half attempted chewing on the bars for a few seconds last night). Right now he’s just awake hanging out in his pen chewin’ on his willow ball. (Vivian is doing the same).

I am really a little anxious about what is going to happen today so I am just trying to get into the chill mode for later. I may need some liquid calm before today’s session. Thank goodness I have been too busy today to really worry about it much.

[RabbitPam]

Wow. Vivian looked kind of exhausted. Glad you knew to comfort and pet her to help her. I would think that, considering how she’s acted up until now, that if he were really hurting her she’d run or whip around an catch him when vulnerable and possibly do some damage, so it must be OK with her to some extent.

Maybe she just had to decide he is the one for her, and judging from her grooming and cuddles, she may have found him worthy. I hope for her sake that a little goes a long way.

[BinkyBunny]

Well, it looks like Vivian wasn’t too upset by yesterday and she was a little proud prankser today. Funny  girl and Jack was much more settled today.  There was a little bit of chasing, but 100% better than ever before.

 

[Sarita]

Vivian seems much more relaxed too – she likes that little corner area too. I cannot believe it’s already over a month too.

[bigsis7]

It seems they’re much more comfortable with eachother! Hope this luck continues ((((Jack and Vivian))))!

[KatnipCrzy]

I love the video updates!  I really think that Vivian has “wedding bells” in her future!

[LilynJestersMama]

These videos are so well done- captions and music!

Jack and Vivian are making so much progress!! Amazing to see.

I think Vivian has decided that she’ll accept frisky, yet charming, Jack as her husbun!

[BinkyBunny]

No new videos today, because well, just about the same – which is good. Whew!! We did start later in the day which I was really worried about, but they were together from 7:30pm to 9:30pm with just a little half-hearted chasing on Jack’s part, and for some reason as the 10:00 hour approaches, it’s the Jack and Hyde time – where he gets more determined to get his freak on. But I separated them before he got too annoying. Funny thing though – when I put Vivian back into her pen, she actually started chewing on the bars to get to Jack’s side. (she has never done that)

I do plan on talking to the vet tomorrow though because even though Jack has tapered down, and I believe he will be back down to what he was like with Rucy, he still is more active in that area than what I consider normal. She also knows her “bunny safe” herbs and I’ll try anything to make sure he settles down at night. I mean, I know he will always try, and as long as Vivian can get away, that fine. I know if they are in the bunnyroom, I will have to make sure there is no way she can get trapped (like in the maze) and get mounted headfirst when I’m not there to stop that from happening, otherwise Jack could get seriously injured.

[Miyuki]

I liked your last video BB! I’m glad they were getting along today. It sounds like you’re making progress!

[BinkyBunny]

Well, Jack was back to his ridiculous mounting antics again – honking and pursuing for hours on end. I called Marcy and she suggested putting in an obstacle course to slow him down, and though that did, it didn’t stop him in the least, but at least it gave her more breaks. He hears nothing, feels nothing, can’t focus on ANYTHING but pursuit.

I thought well, he’ll just get tired after an hour, but in hour three he didn’t really slow down much, so back to their pens they go. Vivian is doing very well considering. She will eat on the run. Grab a dandelion green and eat while she’s running away from him. They sure are getting in their exercise, but he wont’ stop to eat, won’t stop to pee, won’t stop to poo. He will only stop when he’s exhausted. He doesn’t run full blast at her – just runs over, tries to mount, she runs, he stops for second, then pursues again, tries to mount, she runs, and then he pursues and it goes on and on and on….until he has to rest from pure exhaustion.

It seems that after he was actually allowed to mount a few days ago, it settled him down, but then gradually it built back up again. I do have a call into the vet. I mean we are a month in and back to the mounting maniac just like it was in the beginning. This mounting obsession has also seemed to gradually get worse as he aged, but I figured I could attribute to other things, but he’s a complete nutcase now. This is just beyond the norm for a neutered bunny. I know the vet said it had to do with him being neutered later and having kits, but I think we need to check into what’s going on much further. I know he needed to mount Rucy about once a week, but having a new bunny in town has made his pursuit just endless when he gets in that mode and if Vivian doesn’t let him mount, he gets ridiculous. They would have been bonded by the first week if it wasn’t for Jack’s drive to mount.

I am very disappointed especially after having a few really great days.

Well, I do actually hope that something is found through more investigation by the vet because at least that way there may be a solution.

GACK! I just wanna flop down on the floor and cry like a big baby!

[Miyuki]

Oops seeing as I was the only one that commented between your last two sessions… I’ll take the blame for jinxing it -_-‘. My bad.

Hope the vet has some answers for you. Good luck!

[jerseygirl]

Was Vivian only running though?  She may allow him to mount sooner now than she did recently. I do wonder if it’s stress related or somehow wrapped up with the greiving process. Either he can’t make the connection why she won’t allow it but Rucy did OR Rucy allowing it helped him relieve some sort of stress and he hasn’t had that since she passed. You mentioned you had thyroid looked at previously didn’t you?

Does he display alot of dominance in other ways? 

[BinkyBunny]

Vivian was with him the whole three hours – exhausting. 

No no thyroid test yet.  The vet had said that there are bunnies that are mount maniacs that do have medical problems and I forgot the test she said.  At the time I wish I would have followed through with the specific thing she was talking about, but because we were focused Rucy’s constant teeth infection issues, I put him on the back burner.  Plus, though his annoyance was growing, especially over the past year(I did have to make an escape route and hidey house for Rucy), it still was at a manageable level though. She would at least  allow him to mount once a week or so.

I called the vet yesterday and it usually takes her about 24 hours to get back to me (unless it’s an emergency) so I will talk to her about this and see what she thinks at this point as far as testing, and then we’ll go from there.

If it ends up being behaviorial – I don’t know what to do to settle him down.   Right now I could put their pens back in the bunnyroom.  It’s quieter in there. I didn’t want to do that at first for the obvious territorial reasons. Or maybe I’ll try bonding them in there. The living room was typically the place they would come out to explore and play.  But I notice Jack will mount in the foyer, living room, the kitchen, the hallway, the bathroom and outside, so really the last room in the house is the bunnyroom. (but then I also remember webcam people often telling me they would see him trying to mount Rucy)

I think i will first talk to the vet and go from there. I won’t try to deal with any behaviorial stuff yet if there is something else really going on.

 I also just posed the question to Dana Krempels.

[BinkyBunny]

I gave them access to the bunnyroom today to see if that would help calm Jack down to be back in his territory. That if it is stress related, being back in the quiet, the familiar, with the classical calming music would help. (I know it helped me – it’s such a great room, quiet, pretty colors of light greens and deep blue, compfy couch and pillows) but Jack was no more or no less in pursuit. Same ‘ol honk and hump routine.

I did a session this afternoon for a couple of hours where he was relentless, and tonight we went on a car ride and are back at it again (part of me is hoping the “novelty” HAS to wear off even if he has some hormone malfunction.) GEESH for the love of….

Now they have the whole house to run around in and that helps Vivian get away as Jack definitely has to run around more, and work off all of his crazy energy this way, he gets worn out much quicker – which gives Vivian bigger breaks. She’s also good about fooling him and he’ll run around just looking for her while she hangs out and munches on greens.  Then he’ll plop down in exhaustion as she continues to eat.  Amazingly though, Vivian will still seek him out when he is resting and she will try and snuggle – she’s more than willing to groom him. (Poor gal just wants a calm buddy friend.) And he cannot stay calm when she comes over to snuggle now – not even in the slightest, he just has to hump her. No snuggles at ALL for Vivian these last two days.

I can at least be grateful there is no aggression and fighting, but it sure is crazy here in humpty-dumpty town!  It’s like the very first video I made…just now goes on forever.

I called the vet again as I hadn’t heard back.  The receptionist said they have been just overwhelmingly busy these last few days. I do know when that happens, that my vet will call me on her days off. So that is Sunday – I hope I hear from her then. 

[RabbitPam]

Has Vivian allowed him to mount her at all since that first itme?
I would think that he wants it again, but possibly would be satisfied with, say, once a day for now. How hard is it on Vivian to have him mount her that frequently? Is it painful for her every time? (I really hope not.)

Keep us posted about what the vet and Dana K. say. I agree with you that it would ultimately help if there was a physical cause that you could fix. You know, in humans, a shot of estrogen diminishes the effects of testosterone in men. It’s not commonly used, but is part of treating certain illnesses. Maybe there’s something like a hormone balancer that he needs. Hang in there.

[BinkyBunny]

She has not let him mount at all since the last time. Not even if I pet her while he tries to mount. She seems sort of okay with being harrassed for the first couple of hours (VERY patient) but then he gets even more persistent as time goes on. Though he takes more breaks he begins to sprint at her to catch her and mount her and this behavior REALLY stresses her out. I can see her sort of panic so I can’t let that go on. So far though, she usually says when she has had enough by running to her pen and trying to figure out how to get in. It’s so sad, she gets up on her hind legs and puts her front legs on the pen as if say, “GET ME TO SAFETY!!. So I put her back in and give her lots of love and pets.

The first hour or so, I can tell she is trying to enjoy the freedom and will explore, and run from Jack, and eat and run from Jack and then when he gets tired, she will nicely come over to him to say, “Can we just be friends now”, and then he’ll start up again, and it’s just a sad saga all around right now. Jack’s getting too stressed, she’s getting too stressesd. I just am hoping that his hormones go through peak periods once a week, and he will soon be calming down until I can figure out what is really going on.

[BinkyBunny]

So I sit here typing this while supervising another bonding session. My batteries are all being recharged otherwise I’d take a video! Grrr. I’ll try to keep this short:

It is a warm day, Jack is feeling very lazy, so I thought this may slow him down. He definitely is in pursuit but with less umpf….like…”ech, I want to, but it’s too warm. I’d rather snuggle up to one of the frozen water bottles scattered about the floor.”

It’s all sort of the same as before but just in slow motion. LOL

Plus, I also rearranged the obstacle course in the bunnyroom, and let Vivian spend some time in there first to let her to know the new route first before introducing Jack into the mix so she could lose him lickety split.

The first thing she did when I put in him the room with her is run over to greet him and ask for snuggle and tried to groom him,(so forgiving..I know if I were her, I’d want to give him a one-two punch!) but of course, humpking was only interested in one thing. He is seriously irritating.
But for some reason she will still try to have a relationship with him and if he is calm, she will reward him by coming over to hang out. He ruins it though every single time.

She has given him some warning nips, which is what she really needs to do more often as he does back much of the time when she does this.

I just wish he could control his doodlydiddledog better (yes that is the scientific name).   If it wasn’t for this, they would have been bonded after the first week as she is very sweet to him and accepts all of his other pushy behaviors but this one.

[babybunsmum]

oh jack! goodness gracious with all the humping still! i do hope that all goes wel at the vets when you go. any word from dana kremples yet?

[BinkyBunny]

Well it’s a little after 10pm and they have been together now for six hours. The heat has been a good bonding tool since I can see he “wants” to but doesn’t act on it. I did catch them hanging out together in the big hidey house he and Rucy use to share. It was only for about 20 minutes. There is a large frozen water bottle in there, and so I think they decided to call a truce there.

He is now going through an evening mounting pursuit as the night cools off, but it’s still a bit warm, so, so far they are rather short lived, I also have the squirt water bottle (that has begun to work again), plus that also helps cool him off. I am just hoping that this will help with at least the “novelty” part of Vivian for him – the fact they have been together for so long. But really, with him….I have NO idea. I no longer can trust good or negative signs. I’ll just keep it up as long as the settle quickly enough, and maybe sleep in here, but if it gets whacky, I’ll separate and start again tomorrow.

We’ll see how it goes.

I haven’t heard from Dana, nor my vet! (though I do expect her to call Sunday)

[MooBunnay]

I loved the video you posted awhile ago – I can’t stop laughing about the ” I claim all your poo!” – I’m still laughing right now….

Anyways, this was probably discussed earlier and I forgot, but do you think that the extra humping could have anything to do with the fact that it is Spring time? It seems like that might have the possibility of affecting his mojo.

[BB Administrator]

This is BB in admin/geek mode.

MooBunnay – yeah, I have no doubt Springtime comes into play for a big part of this – has always put him into overdrive,, and I think double that up with a new gal in town can make him a bit nutty – I just have never seen him sooo nutty.

I also recently read about how some bunnies can have high testosterone levels due to a few things – some pertinent tissue left inside from a neuter (it can be microscopic!), or a tumor on the adrenal gland (which is what my vet had mentioned awhile back, I just couldn’t remember the exacts before until I happened upon that info). So IF he has high testosterone mixed with Springtime and a new gal, this could be making him up to maniac status.

If it’s not due abnormally high testosterone level, then I am hoping that once Spring passes, he’ll slow down a bit. But i still haven’t gotten a call back from the vet, which I thought I would for sure today. Boo! I know that when I called yesterday, they did not have record of the previous message i left and just said they were overwhelmed, but now the vet is out until Wednesday

I’m just going to call another rabbit savvy vet and see what she thinks and make an appointment with her if I can get in before Wed. I really feel like I need to rule this part out or in so I know what I am really up against.

 

Helloworld!!

[jerseygirl]

I have read something similar. I had saved the info for Lightchick who was having issues with Robbie. I only just deleted it from my desktop last week! Grr! Not to get to far ahead of self but what would it mean if it is testosterone related. Lifetime medication or surgery?
Hopefully something will just finally click with these two this week.

[BB Administrator]

This is BB again still in admin mode.

I have no idea. I do know Lupron is used, and if it ever did come to that I would hopefully only have to use it for the Springtime, otherwise, I would have to find a mate for him that allowed him to mount or he could be a solo bunny. But i just want to find out first what the heck is going on before I get to deep into what ifs.

Helloworld!!

[BinkyBunny]

So finally I got  my batteries charged and got the videos back going again.   Much easer to show than to tell.

Here is a small sample of the endless annoying pursuit we are dealing with.   My husband also does his Abe Lincoln impression somewhere in the middle of it all.  We were just gettin’ a bit loopy about the whole thing.  It was good to have a moment of comic relief.  Actually what happened was he came in to see how things were going, and as we were talking he stuck this rubber golf tool/thing on his chin and it stuck there.

 

 

.

[Miyuki]

Wow, how do they have so much energy! I’m exhausted just watching them dart and run around! Did you get to speak to your vet yet BB?

[mrmac]

I hope you hear back from a vet…well any vet soon! Your husbands impression is hilarious! I hope things improve for you soon!

[BunnyLiz]

BB what are those awesome looking tunnel things!?! Made of cardboard? I want one! lol they look like tons of fun.

[BinkyBunny]

Bunnyliz – THANKS! That’s our newest product – but it’s still in the testing stage. My husband designed it. (yes made of cardboard) We’ve had these prototypes for about a year, but we had to wait to show them on video or anywhere until we appiled for a provisional patent. They shrink up, lengthen out, curve around etc. We are just working on the better “ties” that help control the direction and the length.

myuiki – I have a vet appointment now set-up for day after tomorrow (Wednesday)

[mrmac]

I saw those too and was like OOOH I WANT ONE!!!

[BunnyLiz]

lol wow thats awesome Jen, I want at least 5 to start with haha. So as soon as they get in the store Im so buying a bunch of them, they just look so amazingly fun and entertaining and its great that you can switch them up a bit with size and curves!

[jerseygirl]

I know that’s just a snapshot of the session but Vivian seems to manage it well. She’s only running from what I can tell. Exhausting for her (everyone) though. You’ve mentioned in the past that Rucy had a Jack-free space she could get up too.  Was that because she was a good jumper or Jabck a poor one?  Would this be an option for Vivian?  Loved the ‘comic relief’ btw haha!

Those thingys do look great! Very architechtural (of course). Sort of oragami-like. Do they have a name yet?

[BB Administrator]

BB in admin mode here.

jersey -  I sure wish Vivian would stop running and turn around and face him and nip him.  He seems to have respected that a bit without getting aggressive.  When she runs, it seems to rev him up.

I made a hidey house that had small enough holes that only Rucy could get through – she was smaller and leaner than Vivian. Jack is not as comfortable with heights, but I did discover later though that he could push himself through the holes – it was tough, but he would do it, and then he would get her trapped – the beast!

The one thing that MAY work is he hates slippery floors and I am finding Vivian can go on those okay, so I might be able to build something underneath and back behind the couch, but Jack would be going nuts the whole time and she’d have to be stuck back  there. He has GOT to settle down for this to work since she won’t allow him him to mount.  I mean the longest sessions last week were five hours one day, and six hours another, and the majority of the time (except when it was too hot) he was doing this over and over and over, and amazingly seemed to gain momentum as the evening progressed.

It only ended because I had to end it, and I would also give Vivian a break when she began to panic, also she wasn’t allowed to eat, drink or poop during this constant pursuit. I only let it go on for so long thinking…it HAS to slow-down, just has to! But it never would! What the video doesn’t really reveal very well is Vivian literally plopping down in exhaustion just trying to catch her breath only for him to bug her.

Then she gets panicky and will even freak out when I approach (normally she greets me) until I help her calm down. It’s not a good thing right now.

I am taking a break today from it and letting them rest. I may do a short bonding session tonight, but now Vivian thumps and hides when I go near her pen, where before this crazy week happened, she would come to greet me.

I still haven’t yet given up all hope though. I will see the vet, and I will continue to bond and hope part of this craziness is Spring induced on top of what is going on. Vivian is so wonderful. She is perfect with her litterbox habits (minus the bonding territorial poops) but she urinates and pile poops only in the box. She is sweet, smart and comical. She is getting tired of this too. She is such a great bunny. It’s sad to see her being so harassed when all she wants to do is groom and be groomed.  So I just hope some real solutions are found.

Helloworld!!

[MooBunnay]

Hopefully the slippery floor idea will lead to something to help out Vivian She looks so cute running around hiding from her pursuer! I wonder if it has anything to do with the breed, I bonded a large REW to a girl last year, and he would mount her until we had to pull him off because I really thought he was going to give himself a heart attack. Then, as we lifted him up he would continue the mounting motion in mid-air. It was pretty funny though I felt a little bad laughing at his expense. Anyways, I sure hope he calms down soon, he is quite the cutie, I wonder if that is why Vivian doesn’t smack him, perhaps she likes being pursued by Mr. Studmuffin!

[BinkyBunny]

I did catch Vivian doing binkies last night so she can’t be too traumatized, but I don’t let it go on for as long either. I just have to put a stop to it at certain point. Jack will cuddle with her when he is forced to stop, but unless I am right there to keep him from mounting, then he would start back up.

I took him to the vet and here is the update so far

https://binkybunny.com/tabid/54/afv/topic/aff/2/aft/105265/Default.aspx

As of now, because he has a very large bladder stone, I have to keep him from being sooo active as that makes the bladder stone rub and cause bleeding. (more details about this in the link above)   So for now I will do shorter bonding sessions where I don’t allow him to chase – and encourage cuddling.

 

[MarkBun]

Any updates BB?

[BinkyBunny]

Well, Jack has gone completley nutty bonkers. So disturbing. He actually jumped over the xpen to get to Vivivan and scurried across the hardwood flloor to get to where Vivian was hiding after his superman act. (and he hates walking on hardwood) All of this was something I never thought he would or COULD do. He was in a pen for years before he had a whole bunny room and he doesn’t really like to get up high on places so he’s never been a jumper -or so I thought, but he was just pacing back and forth like a madman, then chewing on the fence, and he’s at least taken to mounting the toy bunny now, but he’s is just a double freakoid now!

I decided to just get Vivian completely out of his range of sight and as best I could…out of his scent range which means lots of closed doors. It’s not the ideal set-up at all because we have to have airflow through the house especially as summer progresses, but for now it’s okay.

I’ve decided to let him settle down. He’s been through alot – Rucy’s death, then a month later a new gal pal, a new pen set-up, then car rides and bonding stuff, and then surgery, then forced meds, and now subcutaneous fluids every other day until the next appointment on the 18th, and so I think I just need to settle his little disturbed soul down. He was a nervous bunny from the start when I adopted him, but Rucy helped settle him down. And Vivian does not calm him right now, she only gets him worked up. Behaviorially, I am thinking maybe when he’s insecure (and he sure has alot of stress to deal with),he may have a stronger need to dominate to feel secure.

Vivian prefers to be next to him as I can tell she is more relaxed even when he’s nutty in the cage next to her. I can tell she doesn’t like being by herself as much. At least Jack would give warning thumps to noises and I think his presence just helped her feel secure. And she would always try and interact with him politely through the xpen even if he would pull out her whiskers. She would try to groom him through the xpen and asked to be groomed, but he just can’t be normal – he gets out of his mind.

So for now, we are going to give him time to completely chill out. I sure hope we can stop the fluids by the 18th, but the vet will determine if we can do that. I just want to give him some time without ANY needles, or having to pick him up for any meds. Just time to settle down and then I will start over.

For now, I will just have to give both Vivian and Jack extra love.

Once we start again, I’ll post a brand new “starting over” thread. (I’ll post the link here)

 

[Author]

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