Is this pasturella??

[MimzMum]

This all just began happening this afternoon about 2 PM:

Mimzy was in his pen today (not the xpen) and I had been preparing a turkey dinner most of the morning. I happened to go past his pen and heard him WHEEZING. This scared me terribly and I lifted him out of his pen to listen to him. My daughter came in the room and said it sounded like he had asthma. His nostrils were flaring pretty widely while he was breathing but other than that and the noise he didn’t seem to be in any acute distress. I tried to look into his nose, but he’s been rather stubborn of late getting turned on his back. There appeared to be no real discharge at this time, he normally has a very mildly moist noise and the hair below it usually has a little wetness. So it looked normal, except for the wheezing, which sounded to me like either one of my cats cleaning themselves (they tend to grunt when it’s a hard spot to reach) or the sound of someone taking a blade of grass and holding it between their thumbs and blowing on it to try to make it vibrate…have any of you ever done that?

So naturally, I panic and call the vet. They told me to bring him in which I did (they were booked and had to see me on an ER basis) Of course by the time I got him in the car and was having the hubby drive us in, he wasn’t wheezing anymore and seemed perfectly fine to the doc when she looked at him. His temperature was 97 degrees and he weighs about 4.8 pounds.

She told me to keep an eye on him but if he worsened to call her tomorrow and she’d prescribe antibiotics. In the meantime she told me I could use a saline nasal spray on him if he appeared to still be having trouble, we thought he might only have something up his nose. (His teeth were okay and his eyes weren’t really weepy or anything-there’s no lumps or anything else suspicious on him.)

Well tonight, while I’m sitting there listening to him munch, he starts making that grunting noise, not the wheezing this time, and he’s sneezed a couple of times pretty hard. When I looked at him, he had a big whitish booger dribbling out of his right nostril. So I scoop him up again and try to wipe it off and see if there’s anything getting pulled out with it, but no. He’s still sneezing a bit and has also been making a kind of random huffing noise, like he’s trying to blow air out his throat to clear it or something. I had the hubby look at him with a bright light while I held him on my shoulder, and he thinks he can see a scratch up inside his nose. I can’t tell, he won’t hold still for me to look and my eyes are crummy up close. (So are the hubby’s, but I’d honestly rather believe this is a scratch causing this than otherwise, especially with the 3 day weekend coming up.)

He’s still having some sneezing, but he’s eating pretty normally and has enough attitude to try to jump off my shoulder and escape for a free-for-all. So I need some advice from those who know better. Does this sound like he’s beginning to exhibit signs of pasturella? Could it just be he’s allergic to something? Could there be a scratch in his nose that’s causing this? Or could it be something else? My husband leaves tomorrow for a two day trip to go hiking with his cousin and I’ll only have one klunky car to go to town with. My vet is hesitant to put Mimzy on antibiotics because “he just doesn’t look sick enough” and she’d do a nasal flush but that means anesthesia. I haven’t tried the saline drops yet, mostly because I can’t get him to hold still.

What should I do? What could this be? I am scared for my sweet, wee bun!

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Mimz- *HUGS* I don’t have experience with this in real life at all. I’ve messaged the other forum leaders so they can come lend a hand. My only advice is to keep an eye on him (insufficient I know!)

[BinkyBunny]

Yikes! What really concerns me was his body temperature reading! 97 degrees body temperature? Are you sure? That is too low! Not to scare you, but if that is true, that can indicate a bunny in shock or going into shock. I am shocked that your vet would have not taken that more seriously.

But the fact he is eating now doesn’t match the symptoms of a bunny going into shock. So maybe it was off.

Regarding if it’s an infection,allergies, or scratch.. It could be that he is fighting an infection (doesn’t necessarily mean pasturella though as there are other lesser sinus infections) or that he got something stuck in his nose (or scratched it). Wheat and Oat are a tougher stalk, so if he decided to “snort” up a blade, I could see where that may cause irritation, but what worries me is the white glop, that does sound l like an infection.

There would be no way to know. Only a vet would be able to really check things out. What did your vet end up doing as far as the examination besides taking the temperature?

I would call the vet tomorrow and let them know that what happened this evening. AND if he continues to have the white stuff coming out of his nose, take a q-tip, wipe it on the q-tip, and put that into a ziplock and bring to the vet so they can do a culture. (she may or may not be able to do a culture, but it would be worth a try.)

[MimzMum]

Thank you Jennifer. Yes, I was concerned over the temperature too, but my vet didn’t even mention it, so I don’t know if the thermometer was reading right or not. It was kind of a chilly drive in, the hubby had a window down. Maybe that was why.
I haven’t seen any more white boogies yet, although his nose is still moist and he seems to be having a bit of wheeze in with his normal breathing now when I just checked on him. Could he have developed an allergy to the wheat hay? I’m not feeding him as much anymore, we’re back to the BinkyBunny timothy, but he just doesn’t seem to enjoy it as much. Maybe I am missing a signal that his appetite is waning?
30 miles in and 30 miles back each time we take him there. For the love of God, why doesn’t someone out here set up an emergency surgery? There are plenty of animal guardians out here who would use it! >_<
Is there anything else I should be on the lookout for? And how do I keep Pip from contracting this whatever-it-is when she lives in the same room with him? (Not the same pen, but hers is above his. I am afraid if I separate them this might cause him more stress, as he at least knows she is there…and I don’t know WHERE else I’d put her that would be safe from the cats?)

*gulp* This doesn’t sound like anything he could suddenly die from, does it? ;_; I watched one of my best cats suffocate in my arms, I don’t want to see that happen to Mimzy. *cries*

[BinkyBunny]

If there would be any allergies, it may be more to the Timothy as Timothy is one of the “dustier” types. (that’s why people actually have more reactions to Timothy than other hays) You may need to shake it out a bit. One way to do that is to take two plastic bags. In the first one, punch a bunch of rather large size holes in it, (the size that two pencils would make). Put the Timothy in that one and then put that bag in another bag, and shake the first bag inside of the other bag. You can also take just the first bag with the holes somewhere outside where it would be okay for all the loose Timothy to fall through. (I’m going to email about the Timothy, so be sure to look out for that)

It doesn’t sound like he is suffering terribly and in immediate danger, but I also don’t know for sure what is going on, so I can’t tell you anything for sure. As we all know rabbits can turn quickly, so I HATE to make your worry – just keep an eye on him, and I’d recommend taking him to the vet tomorrow since he still has a “wheeze”

Right now, keeping them just separated by a pen should be fine until you know what is going on. Do they interact through the pen though?

[RabbitPam]

{{{{{{{{{{{{healing vibes Mimzy}}}}}}}}}}

Two thoughts: first, why not try the saline drops since you have them, hubby hasn’t left yet (he can hold Mimzy) and she recommended it? Even if hubby has left already, I think you can get a bit of saline into Mimzy’s nose. It may just help or bring him some relief. (I woke up short of breath last Saturday night and sat up, squirted saline nasal spray immediately, and it helped. Better now – was allergies.)

And I’m wondering if there’s any harm in her prescribing the antibiotics as a precaution. If it is an infection, it will start the fight before the weekend and he’ll be less contagious quite soon. Why not?

Anyway, I agree that one more visit to the vet is probably in order, or at the very least a phone call right away. Maybe she can call in a prescription somewhere closer to home.

[JK]

Oh Mim I feel your panic! It’s just so damn scary to not know what’s going on.  I swear every tiny thing now with Edson sends me into a tizzy. Not so sure about your vet just like I think mine was off base.  Mine didn’t even take Edson’s temperature and I asked her to because his ears were burning up. And yours is missing a low temperature.  Here’s what I would do is contact Dana Krempel!  I feel so much better with her advice than anyone else! Go to http://www.allexperts.com and go to rabbits and you’ll see that you can ask her a question.  Hang in there – I know how tough this is espcially with a 3 day weekend coming up. Good luck!

[Sarita]

You would not know if it’s pasturella unless a culture was done.

You cannot tell a rabbit’s temperature by their ears at all – you need a core reading of their body which is why you have to do a temperature with a rectal thermometer.

The low body temperature can be an indicator of shock but it’s possible Mimzy was also stressed too – when my vet does bloodwork there are certain things that are higher that she attributes to stress. You will most likely know when your rabbit is going into shock too.

[Sarita]

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/sickbun.html

Good article from Dana Krempel’s on what is an emergency.

[Beka27]

MIMZ! what’s going on?! did you call the vet back?

(feel better Mimzy!)

[MimzMum]

Good morning everyone, and thank you for all your replies!
My vet’s office should open soon, so I am going to phone in the remaining symptoms and see what she says.

Temperature: the nurse ALWAYS takes my pets’ temps by aural thermometer these days. One of those little electronic ones. I keep thinking he may have been chilled by the ride in, not to mention I’ve had the window in the bunny room open a lot lately and yesterday it was definitely turning chilly out. I am now afraid I may have brought something on by making him too cold. (He tends to sneeze quite a bit once the window is open.)
I also read a few articles last night about allergies in bunnies and found that this is not unheard of. I am personally suffering quite a bit right now, as I guess the cottonwood just started pollinating. >.<
But last night, aside from a little wheezing, which resolved itself again (I know, bunnies hide illness well) he was eating and drinking normally, going to the bathroom with no trouble, and even hopping up on his sleeping shelf to eat his pellets. I haven’t seen any further mucus coming from the nostril. His eyes are bright and clear, with him flouncing up to the bars of the pens to see if my outstretched hand held a treat this morning (and any time I turned on the light last night and approached the pen…all the way up to about 4 this morning-I just couldn’t sleep!)

I should try the saline drops today if I see anything…since he snuffled out that bogey last night, I haven’t seen him sneeze anything else out like that, even though he had one of his consecutive sneezing fits last evening about 1 AM. Everything that does come from his nose is still clear and that’s not much.
The antibiotics are dicey to prescribe, since they will only last for one week after the suspension is mixed, then it’s useless. I’m also a bit miffed that my doc didn’t even try to swab his nose, much less take a proper temp. (Of course he wasn’t presenting with ANY symptoms while he was in the observation room.) I also don’t think she has a clue about probiotics and anything she does say she’ll order for him ‘sometimes they just don’t have.’ (Meaning the pharmacy I suspect.) Perhaps she was just trying to keep a worried bunny mommy from ‘going overboard’ for what she (the doctor) thought might be nothing. But with a bunny, isn’t overboard okay?
Anyway there’s really no one else for me to take him to, at least not that I can get him into during this busy holiday week.

I’m continuing to observe him…he is honestly looking at me like, “What IS your damage? Take a picture, it lasts longer!” But I can see he’s soaking up the extra attention at any rate. He seems normal in every way this morning, aside of a few sneezes, and the obvious agony he went through when I pulled back the window shade and the intense sunlight came in…poor thing squinted so hard I thought his eyelids would disappear into his head. (Pippi does the same thing.)

Did I mention that he also sucked down a nice piece of kale last night, one of his favorite greens, in record time? He is still eating and drinking well, so I am encouraged. If he were just lying on his side or his sides were heaving in an attempt to get air, I would be seriously tweaked with worry.

I’ll try the hay shaking technique, Jennifer, thank you for suggesting it! I thought I was shaking it out properly, but this sounds like a much better idea.

I’m also going to check out the articles and links you’ve given me…thanks guys! I’ll keep you posted!

[Sarita]

He sounds like he’s doing good.

I bet if you had not been home to observe the sneezing and snot and now he’s acting like his normal self you wouldn’t even know anything had happened since he’s acting normally.

I have no idea what my rabbits are doing when I’m at work but I do know when I’m home and anything that I feel is out of the ordinary happens I panic but later I think maybe it’s not out of the ordinary, I just don’t observe it normally.

I’m glad he’s feeling better.

[wendyzski]

OK – I’ve got a bun recently treated for a URI that turned out to be pasteurella.  In the past, she also had one that wasn’t, so upper respiratory issues might be pasteurella, nor they might not.

Some of the stuff your vet is saying just doesn’t make sense.  I get antibiotic suspensions for more than one week all the time – Baytril and the chloro-whatsits that she was on when the Baytril didn’t work.  Also, my vet never uses anesthesia for a nasal rinse or culture.  I never see it, because they take her in back, but she is damp and grumpy afterwards but not traumatized or anything.

But yes, if you saw bunny-boogers then there IS probably an infection which should be treated.  Particularly when you mentioned wheezing/grunting, as I know exactly the sound you’re talking about.  Probably not an “emergency”, but you should make an appointment for a thorough exam and a culture. 

[MimzMum]

Well I only saw ONE booger, that’s what chaps me. I would think if he’s really got something like an infection I would see more than one. >_0 But he seems fine today. He is lively and eating and there isn’t a trace of discharge from his nose now. No sign of that dreaded wheezing. I agree he probably needs a full workup, but I wouldn’t be able to get him in for something like that till next Wednesday or later. I was more worried he was developing something that would kill him in 24-48 hrs. ;_;
It’s worse than taking care of very small children. I can remember my kids being pre-verbal and not really able to tell me when something was wrong or WHAT was wrong…this is worse, he can’t even really TELL me anything!
He’s sure wondering what all the eagle-eyeing is about. I wonder if I’m making him nervous watching him so much, but I can’t take the chance I’ll miss something!

[JK]

Oh the eagle eye! I’m sure they sense our “watching” their every move! Hey I’m sorry to be so uncool but what the heck is >-0 and ;_;!!!!!! I can’t even tell what that means if I look at it sideways!!!

[MimzMum]

>_0 (squinty eye)

;_; (tears flowing)

(we’ll get you up to speed yet)

[Scarlet_Rose]

I almost think this might be allergy related. Once you took Mimzy away from the cage/home everything was O.K. (car trip to the vet). Then, when you get back in the house it starts all over again. Is there any dust, pollen, too much gunk in the hay?

I think it should be looked at more closely by a vet, but also at the same time take a good look around at the environment too. Respiratory infections are often aggrivated by dust, pollen etc.

[BinkyBunny]

Keep us updated on how he continues to do! Hoping it is just allergies that just got aggravated lately. The fact that he is eating and pooping normally is a good sign. It may also be a good idea to get a rectal thermometer for him. I know with mine, when they are at the vet, their temperatures raise a bit because the are stressed, but do watch out for low temperatures, those can be very dangerous. The article Sarita gave you was excellent in regards to safe vs dangerous body temps.

Sarita – when Bailey was going into shock, she was breathing normally, but just seemed a bit tired (but not lethargic) and not distressed, even the vet said “she doesn’t look like she is in shock, but her temperature is telling another story” and Bailey passed away a few hours later. So sometimes “going into shock” isn’t as obvious as one might think. I know I was in shock that she was in shock. 

[Sarita]

Thank you for that information Binky Bunny – is there any other way the vet said you would know if your rabbit would be going into shock?

[Beka27]

what is the normal temp… 104? i’ve read it before but i don’t remember exactly…

[Sarita]

Read the sick bun article under my post Beka – it will tell you.

[MimzMum]

Well after a good cage cleaning, some regulated veggies (no more random dandelions or grass from the yard!), and well-shaken hay, it would seem that Mimzy is doing 100% better. I am beginning to suspect it was something that initiated an allergic reaction. I had forgotten that I recently went out for an evening and had perfumed myself, I am thinking this might be what had started the sneezing; or the possibility of him having something up his nose, because once that one booger came out, he’s been completely normal.
I’m keeping an eye on him. I’m also going to continue my search for another vet, as mine never returned my call. Unfortunately, we don’t have any ‘rabbit savvy’ vets here according to the online lookup.

I thought you all might appreciate Dana’s answer to my questions about Mimzy, which I’ll cut and paste here.
I AM worried that his teeth could be the problem, simply because of those funny ‘chewing’ motions he was doing in the exam room. But he doesn’t grind his teeth and there’s no other sign of molar spurs that I can tell outwardly. Anyway I am certain that’s going to take a larger workup with a doctor who isn’t fearful about treating bunnies for fear they would die under her care. >.<

Thanks again for all the replies, everyone. I am comforted to have such company to bring my troubles to! ^_^ ((((((hugs everyone at BB.com))))))))))))))

Dear Mary,

Holland lops are notorious for dental problems, and your little guy may be manifesting them with molar root overgrowth that’s causing the signs of an upper respiratory infection. Molar root infections also can cause nasal discharge.

I’d suggest a culture and sensitivity test on nasal discharge (though with nose cultures there’s always a chance it will be contaminated with other stuff, so cleaning the external nares with Chlorhexiderm, letting it dry, and then doing a deep nasal swab is the best way to get a good sample):

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/culture.html

Please also see:

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/sneezing.html

for more information on the causes of runny eyes and sneezing in bunnies. For now, I’d keep a close eye on him, but be ready and informed should his signs become worse.

If you are not sure your present vet is experienced enough with rabbits to be a good health care provider for your bunny, you may be able to find a more rabbit-savvy vet with the list linked here:

http://www.rabbit.org/vets

Hope this helps.

Dana

[BinkyBunny]

Posted By Sarita on 07/03/2008 5:26 AM
Thank you for that information Binky Bunny – is there any other way the vet said you would know if your rabbit would be going into shock?

Along with a low temperature, pale pink/whitish gums was another sign she said to look for.

[BinkyBunny]

Posted By Beka27 on 07/03/2008 7:11 AM
what is the normal temp… 104? i’ve read it before but i don’t remember exactly…

 

101 is normal, but it’s not abnormal for temperature to raise during stress. Rucy and Bailey’s always run around 103 when they are at the vet. Anything higher though can be a sign of a problem.

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