In the middle of bonding and any advice is greatly appreciated.

[Doodler]

I posted a while back about my two Holland Lops that I was attempting to bond. In a heartbreaking turn of events after things started to go really well one of my sweeties unexpectedly passed away. I now find myself starting the bonding journey all over again and find myself being even more puzzled about bunny behavior.

I am attempting to bond a buck (Doodles) and doe (Delilah) Holland Lop and of course they are both altered.

To make sure I am keeping track of our progress I have typed up a journal but am not including it now since it is pretty lengthy and I’m not sure if anyone would want to read it since we are already 9 sessions in. If anyone feels it would be helpful I am more than willing to include it in a later post. We are currently bonding in a pen that is almost the size of a double pen.

I know it’s too early in the process to say we are stuck but I feel that there might be something I should be doing to move the progress along and was wondering if anyone has any input. Today we had a 1 hour and 50 minute session that went well but the same thing keeps happening. The main issue we are having is Doodles. He seems to feel the need to keep chasing Delilah. The good news is that it never turns into fight. Delilah for the most part just thumps and runs from him. She is perfecting her airs above the ground. Most of the time the thump stops Doodles from continuing the chase. There are times when Delilah thumps and runs when Doodles just moves even when he is not heading her direction. Today’s session included a lot of laying around but they have clearly different feelings about the situation. Doodles, when not chasing Delilah, spent most of the time sprawled out, flopping 5 or more times, grooming himself and eating hay. Delilah spent the time when she wasn’t thumping and running in a loaf position for the most part. I feel terrible because a lot of the time she looks like she’s afraid to even move and spends a lot of time keeping an eye on him. With that said she has turned her back on Doodles and has even dozed when in bonding sessions. Today she ran up to Doodles and they both laid with their noses together, Doodles gave one lick on her forehead and then they moved on their own separate ways. I was also happy to see her enjoy some hay today at the same time Doodles was eating. This only lasted until Doodles felt the need to chase again. At the start of our bonding I would block them with a dust pen, then I pet them like crazy, and now I’m just trying to let them be to see if that helps. At this point it also seems almost necessary since a lot of times Delilah is running when Doodles comes near anyway so most of the time I don’t get a chance to pet them at the same time. Doodles did put his nose deep into Delilah’s side today and I was worried he was trying to start something but this also ended with them going on their own separate ways. The session ended with both of them grooming themselves.

I always thought Doodles was like this because he is insecure but based on how he is flopping, turning his back on her, etc I feel it’s his way to express his want to be dominant. I’m confused he licked first though. I am trying to figure out if I should stay the course since at least Delilah is comfortable going to him a few times during the sessions or if I should try something different. I just fear if she keeps running she’ll never learn to trust Doodles. I am trying to avoid stress bonding (although that might be less stress than Delilah being on guard on a pretty regular basis) or taking them to another location but am open to this if, based on what is happening, this could help drastically. My main confusion is why Doodles keeps chasing when Delilah has shown no retaliation or any signs of fighting for dominance. If Doodles didn’t chase they probably would be a quick bond because Delilah could not be sweeter. I’m also torn on having hay in the pen. I have only had it in there the last two session and did it to see if that helps distract the chase. At this point it’s hard to say if it’s helping or hurting.

Thank you for reading and any ideas!

[DanaNM]

Sorry for your loss

So, it sounds like you are doing a great job so far, and with more time they will probably progress in the space you are in. 9 days isn’t much time at all (that’s coming from the queen of long bonds though lol). That said, you could mix things up a bit if you feel stuck in a rut.

The fact that he’s chasing and she’s running away is very good (vs. it turning to circling). The one lick on the forehead is also a good sign, but interesting that he groomed her and not the other way around (as you noticed too). The way I interpret their behavior (and granted I’m not a bunny, and I’m not there to see them), is that he’s chasing to show dominance, and basically testing her to see if she’s going to challenge him. It sounds like he’s starting to realize she isn’t since he’s comfortable enough to flop, groom, eat and sleep (all good!). Her loafing is good.

It can take a while to build trust, and for bunnies to be SURE about that other bunny. She still hasn’t groomed him, so Doodles is probably still not sure if she will submit. She doesn’t know if he can be trusted, so she isn’t sure if she’s ready to submit. And so the dance continues. I think if the hay isn’t causing obvious problems I would leave it in for the longer sessions (I usually put a pile in the middle of the pen). Eating is a social activity in rabbits, and it’s always nice to have something positive for them when the other bun is around.

I think if you feel like you’ve been progressing (even if slowly), then you can keep up your current strategy, but it wouldn’t hurt to try a stress session. It can help them see each other as a source of comfort. You could do a quick car ride right before a regular session. I’ve often had small breakthroughs after stress sessions.

A new area can also help, but again I wouldn’t say things are going badly, so it’s up to you. You could also start trying for longer sessions. Sometimes those longer ones really help.

Just keep being patient and facilitating as you’ve been. It seems like you have a good read on their behavior, but feel free to incorporate a bit of petting when they come nose to nose. And it’s easier said than done, but try not to project expectations of who is being the difficult one! Often the one that seems so “nice” is passively exerting dominance in signs we don’t notice (failing to groom, for example). Sometimes the slowest bonds are the ones where no buns exerts dominance and they just sit there like lumps! I know I personally have slowed things down by putting my expectations of who was the mean one on them.

And you are doing great so far, so just keep at it, and feel free to try new things if you think it might help!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Doodler]

Thank you for the condolences. I have read so many stories of bunnies passing seemingly with no signs of any issues but never expected to experience it first hand. The irony is that just before he passed away I had spent $280 at the vet on Doodles because he wasn’t eating his pellets as quickly as he used to. Clearly I was worried about the wrong bun. It’s taken a while to even come back to this forum. I’m thankful for the resource and know you are especially helpful. I appreciate it!!

Your insight into my situation seems spot on. I kept wondering what Doodles was trying to get out of the chasing. What you said makes total sense. It would be nice if I could explain to him that he’s not even giving her a fair chance to submit. I just hope she doesn’t get fed up and start to retaliate. I was actually considering a longer session might be the ticket. My main concern is stressing Delilah. I clearly know from experience how fragile they are. The other problem is I have exhausted all areas at my house except my current bonding area since Doodles has been everywhere else. The only other place I have is the garage and it’s too cold at this point for that as a viable option. I have to weigh the benefit to the inconvenience to someone else that would allow me to use their home if I wanted to mix things up that way. A car ride is doable when I have some help here. Should I be concerned about the nose to stomach area situation? I seem to recall reading somewhere that bunnies can do that as an aggressive maneuver as it’s a vunerable area. It seems to be such a fine line between intervening too much, intervening just enough and intervening a little too late. I know some say you shouldn’t even be in the pen with them during sessions. If you don’t think it’s too soon to try a longer session I will try that first and see. I have the hay exactly where you said. It’s right in the middle of the pen area and spread out so they have their own space if needed so I think I’ll keep that going unless there is obvious issues. Bunnies….so cute yet so complicated . Thanks again!

[DanaNM]

Oh man, yeah I’ve lost two bunnies very suddenly (both presented like things we had dealt with before), it’s so heartbreaking.

Yeah, the nose to stomach thing sounds like a bit of a dominance thing (maybe an attempt to nip, or a pre-nip)? I think in that situation I would rotate Doodles so they were side by side and pet them for a few seconds. At any time if you feel like they are starting to get into a more aggressive pattern, go back to petting more.

I think sticking with the large area is good (even making it bigger if you can). When he chases, do they run around for a while? Or does she run away, and then he stops? Also, what is their body language like? Are his ears back and tail up? Or ears forward? And is is a fast chase, like a sprint? Or kind of slow? If it’s a fast chase with ears back, I would stop it after 3-4 seconds just to make sure it doesn’t escalate. Try to use a loud noise rather than physically stopping them. If it’s slow with ears forward, I would just watch and see what happens. With my current pair, Bun Jovi will chase Bertha slowly, like he wants to mount, almost every day. It never escalates and they always cuddle and groom each other afterward, so I think it’s just part of their relationship.

It sometimes helps to add in some neutral hiding spots and tunnels (at least 2, with at least two exists). This can make the area less familiar, and can break up the chase and make it more clear when one bun is trying to retreat. Sometimes they make them more territorial though, so you could feel it out. With mine, they didn’t help early on, but when we got into longer sessions they helped. I think it’s normal for the buns to get kind of tired of each other, and having some spots to rest and take a break can help them not get frustrated with each other.

Pairs also have different progressions. Some have a more gradual process, but others will seem like nothing is happening for weeks, then all the sudden they click and are best friends. My first pair fought at first (Bunston would attack Bertha), then Bunston decided Bertha was scary and would sit in the corner terrified the whole session. That happened for weeks…. Then one day he crept over to her and started grooming her, and then they were all of the sudden best buddies and he was just madly in love with her.

Really any session where they don’t fight is a good one, as they are building trust, even if you don’t see a big change.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Doodler]

As far as the chasing is concerned it normally only lasts one length of the pen or less. On rare occasions it will last two lengths. Normally Doodles will stop after he follows Delilah to the other side of the pen and she will continue back to the side they just came from. There are a lot of times when she thumps and runs and Doodles takes about two hops and stops. There are even times where he doesn’t hop towards her at all. He almost has a look of ‘what did I do?’ or ‘why did she do that?’. As far as the speed of the chase it is normally medium to fast on her part and medium to slow on his part. When it goes two lengths of the pen it is fast. As far as posture and ears are concerned his tail is usually pretty normal and his ears tend to be in their normal lop position or at the most slightly back. Delilah’s ears are normal until she gets to the opposite side of the pen from Doodles and her ears sometimes go forward and she is in a clearly alarmed/defensive position. I will try putting hides in there. I have actually tried the noise option and it works nicely. I am just trying to figure out the sweet spot when the noise is most effective.

[DanaNM]

That length of chase might not need much intervention, so that’s good. I didn’t realize he was a lop! I guess it will all have to be about tail position then.

Honestly they really sound like they are communicating in their own way (or learning to!), so patience will just be the name of the game.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Doodler]

Yes, the lop ears definitely cause some issues when trying to read body language.  At least there is still some movement to read even though its not as obvious.  It’s especially helpful when they are alarmed and their ears go so far forward they practically cover their eyes .

I appreciate your input and it’s comforting to know that we might be on the right track for the most part.  I decided to give them a day off today and plan on doing a long session tomorrow.  I am now actually looking forward to it and will definitely post the results.  Fingers crossed!

I also wanted to mention that I am sorry to hear the losses you experienced as well.   It is heartbreaking for sure.  Prior to becoming so obsessed with rabbits I never realized how quickly they capture your heart.

[DarthVadar]

Try sitting them next to each other so they are touching and running your hands down each rabbits back. It relaxes the scared one and mellow the aggressive one.They get used to being by each other while you are right there to stop any fights. I did this with mine yesterday and they stopped the chasing almost altogether.

[Doodler]

Thank you for the suggestion!  When we first started the bonding process I was doing that during the sessions to avoid the chasing and nipping.  For the last two sessions I stopped doing it all together and just pet them when it felt necessary.   That is when they approach each other and are face to face or when Delilah seems a little too stressed.   I wanted to see how things go when I stop because it seems like if I keep doing that it will take even longer for them to figure each other out.  Since I plan to do a longer session today I may pick that back up again and see if it helps.      

[Doodler]

I decided it doesn’t hurt to add my notes from our sessions in case anyone wants to read our journey so far .

Day 1:  10 minutes in NIC cube.  Started with dustpan in between them but removed it shortly after we started.  No aggression.  Pet them for most of the time with small breaks between pets.  This still resulted in no aggression.  Ended the session with pets while they were snuggling. 

Day 2: 15 minutes in cube.  Started with no aggression.  Shortly into session Doodles growled and bit my thumb and this appeared to have happened because of Delilah’s moving.  No other aggression.  Pet the whole time except for a couple of times when the dustpan was placed between them so I could check the time.

Day 3: 1 minute in cube and 12 minutes in pen.  In cube Doodles did minor nip towards Delilah’s face but other than that they were calm.  Once in pen they did some independent investigation around the pen.  Doodles attempted to run at Delilah around 3 times but I blocked him with the dustpan each time. One time Doodles boxed and attempted to bite at the dust pan.  Delilah ran towards Doodles once but this didn’t appear aggressive at all.  Forced snuggles three times in pen.  Session ended with Delilah investigating and Doodles being pet.

Day 4: Approximately 25 minutes in total.  Started walking around with them in the cube for about 2 minutes.  The rest of the time was spent in the pen.  Lots of independent investigation.  Groomed themselves within 2 feet of each other.  Dustpan was still used to stop chasing.  Doodles nipped at the dustpan once and Delilah 3 times.  He ran towards her three times within a short period of time but this was stopped with the dustpan.  Forced snuggles twice and during one Doodles nipped at Delilah’s foot.  Pet Delilah as Doodles ran around.  Pet Doodles when he came near Delilah.  Ended session with them nose to nose about 5 inches apart and they were both super relaxed.

Day 5: 48 minutes in pen.  Started out ok but then Doodles showed some slight aggression. He bit the dustpan a couple of times and boxed it once.  He also nipped at Delilah’s face.  Delilah retreated and thumped.  She spent most of the time laying in one position and thumped a couple of more times.  Doodles spent a lot of time grooming himself and even turned his back to Delilah.  Had them face to face again about 6 inches apart and pet them. At one point I was petting Delilah and called Doodles over and he came over for pets as well.  Delilah approached Doodles once but pet both to prevent any aggression.   Ended session with second forced snuggles of the session.

Day 6: 58 minutes in pen.  Doodles tried to nip Delilah approximately 3 times.  Delilah retreated and thumped each time.  Placed them in cube and walked them around for approximately 5 minutes and placed them back in the pen.  Delilah spent most of the time loafed in one spot.  Doodles flopped twice.  He spent most of the time laying on the opposite side of the pen from Delilah.  When he approached Delilah I would pet them.  He did this multiple times and I pet them about 18 inches apart.  Doodles walked around the pen for a bit and then came up and placed his nose on Delilah’s side.  Pet them like this for about 5 minutes until the end of the session.

Day 7 – 1st session: 50 minutes in pen and 10 minutes in cube.  Same regular chasing and nipping from Doodles.  He groomed himself multiple times.  Delilah thumped when he approached and this began stopping Doodles.  Tried using noise (wood roller toy with ball) instead of the dustpan and this stopped the nipping but also prevented any real interactions between them.  Delilah spent most of the time lying in once place but would run from Doodles or turn and thump.  Delilah groomed her foot while about 2.5 feet from Doodles.  Due to multiple nips decided to do a stress session in the cube.  Doodles started nipping at Delilah in the cube but then spent most of the time looking for a way to escape.  At the end of the session he laid against Delilah.  Pet them and ended the session with snuggling.

Day 7 – 2nd session: 1 hr and 20 minutes.  Doodles chased Delilah but most of the time didn’t nip.  Delilah thumped and ran.  Doodles groomed himself multiple times, flopped and laid down very relaxed.  Delilah did lay relaxed for a long period of time at the same time.  She almost fell asleep.  At one point they went nose to nose and nothing happened.  Added hay to the middle of the pen.  Doodles ate but Delilah didn’t.  Short forced snuggles in the middle of the session.  Tried vacuum when Doodles chased but there was no real reaction.  Doodles ended chase for the most part when Delilah thumps and runs.

Day 8: 1 hr 50 minutes in pen.  Most of the time was spent with bunnies laying down.  Doodles flopped 5 or more times.  There was some typical chasing on Doodles part and no real nipping.  Delilah approached Doodles once and they laid with their heads down.  Doodles also later placed his nose into Delilah’s side.  They both ate hay at the same time with Doodles turned away from Delilah.  Doodles then chased Delilah briefly.  Session ended with them both grooming themselves.

[Doodler]

I couldn’t  be happier with today’s progress!

Day 9: Day off

Day 10: 3 hr 40 minute session in the pen.  The session started with a lot of independent investigation of the pen area.  Doodles kept approaching Delilah and they would lay not really nose to nose but more cheek to cheek.  I would pet them and they were both relaxed.  When I stopped petting them Doodles would crawl slowly down Delilah’s side and put his nose in her side.  At one point it looked like he was licking her side and then nipped.  Delilah hopped away when this happened.  I did what DanaNM suggested and turned Doodles around when he did this and laid him next to Delilah which resulted in somewhat of a forced snuggle.  Later in the session Doodles would do the same thing except he would crawl down to Delilah’s butt and give her a little nip.   On one approach however Doodles groomed Delilah’s forehead!!!  There was very little chasing and thumping in this session.  Almost all ‘chases’ consisted of Doodles hopping towards Delilah twice and Delilah would hop 4 times.  Both of them flopped twice, did zoomies, groomed themselves multiple times, ate hay and Delilah even did a half hearted binky.  After one extreme Delilah flop Doodles went up to her and she didn’t get up.  It appeared Doodles was sniffing and licking her face.   At another point Delilah was laying down and Doodles was a foot in front of her.  Delilah didn’t move but then after staying that way for a while it seemed like she just noticed him because she got up really fast and thumped.  Doodles didn’t do anything.  By the end of the session Delilah was barely reacting to any nips Doodles may have been giving her.  I did add a second pile of hay and this seemed to work even better.   I also added a tunnel and they seemed to really like it being in there.  Thanks for the suggestion DanaNM!!

The most epic event of the day….close to the end of the session Delilah was sitting somewhat close to the side of the pen and Doodles came over and laid down right next to her between her and the pen .   I will include some pictures.  I figured I already shared pictures of Doodles but I should share Delilah’s as well (other than her passed out picture in the December pics thread)

[DanaNM]

That’s really great progress! Way to go!

Since that date went well, I would try replicate those conditions for a few dates in a row to cement that behavior.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Doodler]

Day 11: 4 hours in pen. This session went just as well as yesterday’s session. The session started with them going nose to nose twice in a short period of time. I pet them for these two. Both of them flopped, ate hay, and groomed themselves. There was a lot of sleeping and very little chasing or nipping. Doodles now is mainly nose booping Delilah’s butt. Delilah then hopped away. At one point I laid down by the pen and Doodles came up for pets. Delilah was lounging in the tunnel but came up also for pets. She ended up laying right up next to Doodles. Three times she got up and scratched but laid right back down and pushed herself next to Doodles. They laid that way for a good amount of time and I rubbed and pet their heads. When Delilah got up she then came back and went nose to nose to Doodles. I pet Doodles and wish I wouldn’t have just to see what happened. She appeared to be nibbling his face but he didn’t react. She kept investigating his mouth which I found odd. Later in the session Delilah was eating hay and Doodles went up and laid right next to her but Delilah ran away. Most of the chasing that did happen seemed almost playful since they sometimes would do a running hop and shake their head. No full on binky’s happened though. The best thing to happen…Delilah groomed Doodles for the first time! It was brief but Doodles approached Delilah and laid down and she ended up grooming his ear.

[Doodler]

Day 12: 2 hrs and 30 minutes in pen. Best session to date!
The session was a lot of the same at the start as other sessions. Both of them did happy runs and Doodles even did some binky’s in the hay pile. Doodles did chase Delilah from the hay but mainly allowed her to eat in peace. They spent some time eating by each other. At one point Delilah even jumped over the tunnel into the hay pile where Doodles was eating and he didn’t react at first but after a while he chased her away. Delilah approached Doodles while he was sleeping and she laid down with her face perpendicular to Doodles’. He didn’t react and they stayed like that for a while but then he nipped her which causes her to move away. Interestingly after he did that he went over and flopped right in front of her. She then laid down next to him. After a while of snuggling it looked like Doodles was going to nip or boop her butt again. He didn’t but Delilah still left. Doodles did barely any chasing or nipping and for the first time I heard him make his really low honk noise to her a couple of times. Delilah has now started doing foot flicks as opposed to thumps but this only happened 2 or 3 times. She did thump twice but they were not nearly as loud as they were when we started. Late into the session Delilah had her nose to Doodles side and he flopped right in front of her again. She laid down next to him. Shorty after she got up and flopped right into him. They laid like this for a while and again it looked like Doodles was going to ruin it with a boop or nip but instead he got up and groomed her head! He then loafed right next to her. Starting about middle session I noticed Doodles was sometimes turning his head like he was going to nip but then turned his head back. At one point he did this three times in a row. The frustrating part is that things go great for most of the session but then close to the end Doodles allowed Delilah to lay face to face while they both slept and then he just nips out of the blue. He did allow her to lay by the hay pile while he ate so that’s another win. I’m looking for any advice on what the next best step is? It looks to me like they are slowly figuring each other out but Doodles still feels the need to put Delilah in her place every once and a while. Delilah is still being the sweetest little girl.

I couldn’t help it and just had to add a photo from today’s session.  Of course there is hay everywhere now due to Doodles’ binky’s .

[DanaNM]

That’s all really great!

I would just keep up with what you’re doing, but start extending the sessions longer. Maybe try for 3 or 4 hours next time. Once you start getting into 6 + hours with no scuffling or anything you have to break up, I’d start thinking about whether you want to try for a full overnight or marathon in neutral space.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Doodler]

Day 13: So far we are 5 hours and 30 minutes in and this has been the most boring session yet. I will be grateful for boring though. I decided to add a litter box and a water dish since this was going to be a long one and everything is going even better than yesterday except for one thing and I’m wondering if it’s normal? For some reason all of a sudden today, even though I’ve also done two sessions that were about 4 hours, Delilah has taken to pooping and peeing outside of the box when in the bonding pen. Before I added the box and water there was barely anything except for a few random pills here and there. I’m talking about 5 pills since day 1. Now she is going everywhere except the box. I get that she is actually getting water now during the season and I know it’s not uncommon for litter box habits to go out the window during bonding but find it odd that it hasn’t happened until now. She didn’t go when she didn’t have a box to use and now that she does have one she needs to go everywhere. Doodles has been perfect about using the box. Bunnies are so confusing!! On another note I did also scatter pellets for them since we were bonding during dinner time and that also went great!

[DanaNM]

Haha, silly buns! It actually makes some weird sense to me… buns can get territorial over their litter boxes… (you did add a very clean or brand new one?), so in a sense I see it as her staking claim to the area.

Glad it didn’t cause any disputes though! You can also try feeding them their greens together since they are doing well.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Doodler]

Yes it was very clean. I’m trying to save my new ones for when they move in together but if this continues I may have to rethink this.
We officially made it to 6 hours on day 13 and it finished just as well. They seemed to both want out of the pen by the end so I decided I needed to mix things up for day 14….
Day 14: 3 hours and 25 minutes. The pen has been moved to a new area in the kitchen and made bigger and made to be neutral for Doodles since he has been in there even though infrequent. They loved it! Zoomies and binky’s galore. I decided to put their hay in the large small pet select greens bowl and they shared hay very well. At first Doodles seemed to be keeping Delilah away but they ended up eating side by side by the end. I added a second litter box. Poop wars have officially begun. It appears Doodles is officially smitten with Delilah but Delilah is playing somewhat hard to get. He follows her and quietly honks pretty frequently. He will nibble on her butt right by her tail and she will hop away and binky at the end of her run. Multiple times Doodles went and laid next to her and she would eventually hop away. We had our longest grooming session when Doodles groomed her for over 2 minutes. Doodles asks for grooms and he has gotten a few licks but nothing major yet. When they were placed back in their room Delilah popped everywhere in her area overnight. I’m hoping this does end once they bond! I may be doing an overnight tonight but not sure if I should wait until the poop wars improve first?

[DanaNM]

That all sounds so great. The poop wars honestly may continue until they are bonded… and maybe a few weeks after! I think if you are going 6 hours with no aggression you can try for an overnight if you’re up for it!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Doodler]

I forgot to mention that your insight on her marking makes total sense. I find myself being concerned at this point that she’s lost all training because Doodles has stopped already but she is now going in piles as opposed to scattered. So frustrating since it took a lot of work to train her in the first place. I can only hope that it is marking.

Day 15: Only 2 hours long. It went well again. My intentions were to do an overnight but I was finding myself getting too sad for Doodles and frustrated with Delilah so I pulled the plug way early. I know I’m causing the process to be drawn out longer than necessary since it really is going better than I expected.

Doodles groomed Delilah a lot and she kept still asking to be groomed. When Doodles asked to be groomed she wouldn’t. Such a selfish little girl. I’m even more confused because now I’m thinking Delilah will be the dominant one but then Doodles is able to make her leave the water and hay when he wants her to so I’m not sure about their dynamic at this point.

I decided to add a box as another hide and since this is Doodles’ favorite place to sleep. It was a brand new box. Delilah followed Doodles in and thumped a few times. There were no fights and they kept leaving and coming back. I could tell that Doodles was not happy. I did think about adding a second box but thought that would be taking up too much floor room so I removed the box instead. Doodles started chewing the pen bars and then just sat next to the pen staring at me. Delilah just continued to eat hay and poop. That is when I caved and ended it. I know once this is over everyone will probably be very happy but I’m feeling such guilt in subjecting them to this process. As you can probably tell I’m super attached to Doodles and the thought of him being unhappy or not getting the attention he wants from a companion makes me terribly sad. He is used to having a room and now being cooped up in a pen is hard. Any tips on how to make this process more enjoyable for them would be greatly appreciated.

[DanaNM]

Bonding is just pretty stressful, but worth it in the end. I think it helps to make sure to spend some one on one time with them, but also remind yourself that it’s only temporary.

Once they are bonded it is often hard to tell who is dominant, and usually both bunnies will groom. It seems that sometimes one bun will have some dominant behaviors, and the other will have others. With time they will work out an arrangement they are happy with.

I know with Bertha and Bun Jovi I kept feeling bad for her that she was doing all the grooming, and I definitely slowed things down with this projection. Now that they are bonded, they groom pretty equally! And, remember that the act of grooming is nice for the groomer as well (that’s why buns will often groom the carpet or their bed)!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Doodler]

After a brief lapse in strength to power through on my part we are now back on track.

Day 16:  Our first overnight session!  12 hours and 20 minutes.  Everything went the same as usual except for one development.  Doodles has now started to try and hump Delilah.  Delilah for the most part runs away so the chasing has picked back up again.  This time it lasts at the most three laps around the pen. Neither of them seem angry (in fact Delilah still usually binky’s at the end of the chase) but I do think Doodles is getting frustrated that Delilah won’t groom him back.  They got feed their pellets in bowls and also got greens last night in their bonding pen and it went well.  I was especially concerned about the greens because they both love their food but Delilah grabbed hers and ran with it to the other side of the pen.  This is not unusual because she has been known to do that in her regular pen as well.  The poop and pee in that bonding pen though…...

What would you do next?  I am getting very concerned about the semi-neutral bonding area and even their home area if this litter box issue continues since they are both carpeted. The poop isn’t ideal but is doable…the pee not so much.  Right now I have a cheap carpet on top of a tarp for the bonding area but was hoping this was a short term set up.  I am beginning to think that I’ll have to do the same thing in both of the other areas until things improve.   It’s very interesting how they can go from nothing to complete flood gates being opened in one day.

[DanaNM]

I would say don’t move to semi neutral until the chasing resolves in neutral (it sounds like it will with time).

Regarding the peeing, puppy pee pads are your friend! You can put down a tarp or plastic sheet with pee pads over them.

Once things “click” with them, the marking should improve even if it doesn’t get 100% back to normal immediately.

When all else fails, for cleaning carpet, I really like diluted nature’s miracle carpet shampoo coupled with an oxygen boosting cleaner.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Doodler]

I thought about puppy pee pads but I fear Doodles will scrunch them and tear them up. What do you use to keep them securely placed down?

I totally agree they aren’t ready for a semi-neutral move. It did dawn on me that they didn’t really do any of the flopping last night that they usually did in other sessions. They at least laid relaxed by each other but I’m thinking another mix up might be needed. I’m out of places unless I take them elsewhere and I’m really trying to avoid that. I’m trying to decide if just having them work out their issues in the current set up is better or if a car ride might be in order. I’m trying to make this as least stressful for them as possible and it’s hard to know what the right route is. Since they get along so well for the most part for now I guess I’ll avoid the stress session process and just give them long sessions to figure it out. I just put them in for another session so I guess I’ll see how it feels after this one. Thanks again!

I know why bunnies are so darn cute. They have to be for people to deal with such frustrations

[Doodler]

Day 17: So far we are 5 hours and 30 minutes in and I’m still trying to decide when to end it. Have I mentioned bunnies are so confusing?

So we had some issues today. The good news…by far less poop and pee all over the pen. I’m not sure what that is all about. I’m starting to wonder if the time I start the session is impacting that. Either that or the night together helped. There have been a few chases but Doodles is stopping a lot sooner than Delilah. She just keeps going unnecessarily. Doodles is still trying to hump Delilah and she actually returned the favor. That didn’t go over well with Doodles and he spun right around towards her. Nothing escalated from there. I decided to try banana on Doodles’ forehead. That was a mistake because Delilah started to chew his fur instead of licking. Doodles just took it but his eyes were so wide. I felt so guilty! About an hour into the session I decided to remove the tunnel and add two boxes. I also added an elevated bed so they have a cozier spot to sleep. This didn’t cause an issues and it was actually cute seeing them go from box to box. The worst thing that happened was when it came to dinner time and it was also my fault. I dropped and broke one of their food dishes and as I tried to get a new bowl and food they started to scuffle. Nothing bad but an argument none the less. Like I’ve said they both love their food. Even though we only did 2 hour the other day maybe a break is in order?

[DanaNM]

Oh mine would definitely scrunch up and shred the pee pads… but they still helped absorb things. Time of day can definitely affect things… mine tend to be poop machines over night.

The fact that Delilah’s mounting attempt didn’t cause a fight is good.

I know you don’t want to stress them, but it seriously might really help! Bonding itself is stressful, and weirdly sometimes a bit more stress makes it go more smoothly, so the total stress is less.

I don’t think a break is really in order, scuffles happen (especially when commotion is involved!). Breaks are only needed when a really serious fight happens. But that said, taking a day off isn’t the end of the world if you need some rest!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Doodler]

If it continues I might give the puppy pads a try.   With how much of a scrunch he does I am not sure if it will work but it’s worth a try.  He’s one of those that likes to scrunch it into a ball type shape and he’ll probably do it in short order before they have a chance to even go on them.   As far as the poop is concerned that is exactly what caused me to realize the time could be it, however during bonding they seem to summon poop from all the way down to their toes so who knows when it’ll come .   I just find it interesting that even until late evening they still didn’t go out of the litter box much and they were both using the boxes so that made me feel a little better.  Annoyingly Delilah jumped out of the box and 4 pills followed her and went in 4 different directions.   I have no idea how she even did that!  I also find it interesting with their room set up that neither have ever marked around their perimeter either. 

I am glad to hear that the humping result was good!  I was disappointed that she did it but not surprised.  I know Doodles was not happy so you’re right I will count my blessings that they didn’t fight after that. 

I have decided a car ride is in order.  Even though I don’t want to stress them even more the longer this takes the more stress they are enduring anyway so it’s worth a try.  Doodles doesn’t seem to get too bothered by the car but Delilah does.  Maybe that will make her think of him as her protector.   I feel like we are so close but it also feels at the same time that neither are going to back down on their opinion that they are top bunny.  I am sure this is a common feeling and also know this could be much worse.  Compared to others I have had it easy.

[Doodler]

Day 18:  So far 7 hours in.  We have either taken a step back or are seeing some progress. 

On the marking front they are almost back to normal.  So far there have been about 7 pills outside of the box and they have all been by the box.   They either have enough of their scent around to make each other feel it’s no longer necessary or having slightly dirty boxes has helped.

On the behavior front there has been very little chasing.  So far this has only happened twice and both times were a result of Delilah humping Doodles.  I find it interesting that when he humps her she runs and when she humps he stays still until she is done and then he chases.  The two times he chased her she was humping backwards but was past his head and she bit down on his butt resulting in some hair being pulled.   These both happened close to the beginning of the session.  Really the interesting part is that after Doodles chases he then goes up to her and grooms her.  Such an odd boy.  Most recently she humped from the correct side and when she was done Doodles just turned around.  Doodles hasn’t tried to hump at all today.  I think Delilah might be winning the dominance war.  On another note Doodles was very hesitant eating his greens and he seemed nervous when he was eating the little he did and again he loves greens.  I hope this improves soon.  They also have been spending less and less time together.  Doodles is no longer following Delilah and honking and Delilah is no longer flopping by him.  It almost feels like they are either starting to resent each other or they are just trying to come to grips with their respective roles.  On another note, Delilah has been laying down a lot less than before.  She was always lounging, loafing and flopping but I now see her just sitting around a lot.  Doodles also hasn’t been flopping much but he at least lays down more.  When they do lay down they are usually away from each other which is very different than what it has been like.   I am wondering if the harder tile is impacting them or if it’s the situation.  They both at least flopped twice today but it still is a lot less than normal.   I might have to invest in some mats if this goes much longer.   I have also seen a lot less binky’s so I am concerned that they are getting more and more unhappy.  

The positive is that there still have been no fights and Delilah actually groomed Doodles for a decent amount of time for the first time!

[DanaNM]

I’m pretty convinced that sometimes both buns think they are dominant. Or that the female lets the male think he is in some regards… lol.

Hard to say if the lack of flops and binkies means anything. Could definitely be related to the flooring. Do keep an eye on Doodles eating and pooping. Stress of bonding can cause real gi issues, so just make sure he is still eating and pooping normally when not in a session, and give them a break if needed.

I think if they are interacting, and not fighting, then they are communicating, so that’s a good thing. And Delilah grooming Doodles is great.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Doodler]

LOL. The old let the man think they’re in charge trick. I get it.

We are officially 8 hours and 45 minutes in and there hasn’t been a chase for a long time. Delilah just had a very nice grooming session from Doodles and they both seem content now. I think I will end it there and give them a break and then decide if a night session is in the cards. I will definitely keep an eye on him. The good news is they eat hay a lot in the session so I know he is getting enough food at least. Their litter boxes show good results as well but I definitely know things can change quickly. I am trying my best to get a helper to drive us around tomorrow and hopefully get in another long session after that.

Delilah groomed him again after posting so I now think it’s progress and not a set back I am seeing….

[DanaNM]

That sounds really positive! Way to go!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Doodler]

Day 19:  So far 11 hours and 30 minutes and counting. 

The person who was supposed to be driving us on a stress session today couldn’t make it so I improvised.  After starting the session in the pen with no issues I decided to open it up and allow them access to the living room that has the furniture surrounded also by pens.  It couldn’t have gone better.  They had such a great time.   I allowed them out for two hours and then put them back in the pen.  They have now been out for about another 45 minutes and it’s still going great.  It tends to be a lot of Doodles following Delilah around.  She hasn’t had access to the living room before so it’s all new to her.  I think it helps that Doodles isn’t really territorial and that I happened to bring a doe into his home.  They even shared pellets from the same bowl today for the first time (not intentionally on my part but at least they were ok with it).   I think I might end up having a problem with Doodles leaving pellets and Delilah trying to finish them off….

[DanaNM]

wooohooo!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Doodler]

Day 20 into day 21:  They have now been together for 48 hours!  I spent day 20 doing the same thing as day 19. This included a couple of hours twice a day of free time by opening up their pen to allow them access to the living room.  They are getting along wonderfully.  I do find they spend a lot of the day time separate.  Doodles tends to sleep in his box and Delilah tends to sleep right outside of the box.  There is only one issue.  Poor Doodles keeps trying to chew and pull at the pen blocking the hallway to his room when they have their free time .   

ETA:  We had sharing of a box at nap time!!!  Seriously one of the cutest things ever .   About 28 hours in…..

[Laragc]

Sounds like you have some bonded bunnies there! Congrats!!!

[DanaNM]

That’s so awesome! Definitely the home stretch! Way to go!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Doodler]

Thank you so much Laragc!  Good luck with Sprinkles and Mila.  It looks like things are going well .  They are adorable!

Thank you so much DanaNM!!  I am worried about the finishing steps.  I am trying to figure out how to neutralize their room as much as possible.  I am hopeful that since Delilah was in the room with him this will make things easier but I am still concerned.   

 I thought I would describe what my plan is and was wondering what your thoughts are.   They both have Living World Deluxe X-large cages.  Doodles’ doesn’t have a top on it and it’s never closed.  I only kept it to keep the litter box and hay contained and also because he likes the shelf.  Delilah has the cage but it also opened up into a pen in the same room.  I plan to start with both cages in the room in different locations that they were in with hay and litter boxes in each.  I am not going include either of the shelves (much to Doodles’ dismay) so I can fit two boxes in them.  My plan is to get rid of one eventually.   I am worried about them arguing about the cage space, especially at the doorway.  I was thinking I might be able to remove the front panels so neither would feel trapped by the other.  I know it probably won’t work but I am hoping to keep my Ware Scatter less corner boxes so removing all sides won’t be possible if I do get to keep those.  So far it seems they want to poop right by each other because there is always poop right in front of one of the boxes.  Bunnies….

I am excited about the prospect of having a successful pair.  It’s bittersweet because I can’t help think about how much I wish my sweet Dapper lived long enough to make it this far.  I love Delilah but my heart still hurts.  Such conflicting emotions. 

[Doodler]

Day 22 and Day 23:  We have officially moved into the bunny room.  They are still getting along wonderfully and I seem to have two happy bunnies .  I was worried Doodles might have been just a little territorial once this move happened but he has treated Delilah like she has always been here.

This is them from this morning:

Delilah clearly still needs to learn what the Willow Tent is for :

[DanaNM]

That’s so great! Looks like you’ve done it!

I totally understand the bittersweet feeling. Bertha has been widowed twice, and I still dearly miss her first and second hus-buns

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Doodler]

I thought I would come to this thread to give one final update.

Even though it took a year from the start of my search to the point we are at now I can confirm I now have two happily bonded bunnies and they are absolutely adorable together. They seem to be even more bonded than my last update and spend most of the day together. Doodles has even taught Delilah how fun sliding door blinds can be (I have no idea how they are fun) and how during the day sleeping behind the chair is the place to be. On one hand they seem really in sync like when Delilah will come and flop into Doodles and shortly after Doodles will get up and then flop right back into Delilah. On the other hand they seem out of sync at times but I can’t help but laugh when they run into each other as they are heading opposite directions.

Our journey may have had major heartbreak but I know 100% that I did the right thing by not allowing that heartbreak to end my search to find a friend for Doodles.

[DanaNM]

That’s great! Awesome job!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Author]

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