I believe my rabbit is having dental issues and has developed an abcess

[Cassie119300]

Hello,

I was just writing and wondering what everyone else’s experiences have been regarding dental related issues. About two weeks ago my English Spot rabbit started developing some unusual signs after eating a different kind of hay. Small Pet Select recently introduced a knocked down price on their variety hay and I had no issues with the first box, the second box came and there was some brown hay in it but otherwise seemed ok. She was eating it and then just started to gradually stop over the next few days. Then I noticed she kept moving her mouth side to side seemingly without anything in it at all, constantly. I then went out and bought some new timothy hay (only about 3 different brands) she doesn’t seem to like the meadow timothy hay, but the oxbow western timothy hay seems to be good when she wants to eat it. Of course with this fecal output became smaller and varied and she has not been pooping lots of poops since this all started about 2 weeks ago. I would say tops 30-40 a day with varying sizes. She does seem to be still eating a lot of cecotrophs from her rear end though a few times a day. The poops became stringy and then looked connected and long with fur material, that has since pretty much gone away I have been coming her atleast twice a day as she’s been shedding heavily. I think some construction that was going on outside disrupted her as well around when it all started. However, I have been feeling her jaw over the course of two weeks and only just last night did I notice a bump developed on the right side of her cheek/jaw bone, so now I’m almost certain this is a tooth issue. Which explains why she is interested in the hay only some days and is sleeping a lot more on different days. She stopped caring to drink her water about two days ago so I have been syringe feeding her throughout the course of this. I was giving her the Sherwood emergency feed, and now am on critical care which I need to give her baby food pumpkin most times to eat. I’ve managed to sneak in some water this way as well. She wasn’t really eating her hay for two days but she’s eating some on her own today. I did have meloxicam left over from my other rabbit who had passed on so I’ve been using the 1 ml dosage (she’s a 8 pound rabbit)… I do believe it’s helping. I have a vet appointment scheduled for this Wednesday with possibility of getting in tomorrow. Things are crazy right now because November 2nd I’m attending a visa application center to hand over my passport to join my fiancé in the UK, I’m supposed to spend two weeks with him in that area (where we originally first met and love staying) while my mother watched over her, but no telling what is going to happen now. I really hope it’s not an abscess and I’m not sure what this will entail if so, I’m not sure what else it could be really but the lump on her cheek/jaw area came on suddenly. I am afraid of the price and what it’s going to be but the vet I found is also a non for profit hospital/ cat sanctuary as well. The vet I’m going to see owns some exotics as well (chinchillas) so fingers crossed. They have got to be better than the prior vet, there is literally no vet’s in my area that will see exotics/that will even take patients so it’s all just maddening right now. [video width="368" height="656" mp4="https://binkybunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/311792768_5523460054396285_7670817542691076225_n.mp4"][/video]

[DanaNM]

I’m very sorry to hear this, it does sound like a dental issue, so it’s good you are getting her in ASAP. Definitely continue the syringe feeding and pain meds until then, and if she gets worse then push the vet to have her seen sooner.

I had one bun that had some serious dental issues and an abscess. If it does end up being an abscess, I recommend treating it as aggressively as possible from the start to have the best chances of success. For my bun, they removed the rotten tooth, cleaned out the abscess, and then I had to give him subcutaneous penicillin injections for several weeks (I don’t recall if it was daily or every other day, but I think it was for 6 weeks?). The vet will show you how to do the injections… it’s honestly easier than syringe feeding once you get the hang of it. Some vets will also pack the abscess capsule with antibiotic beads. The capsule wall is so thick that giving oral antibiotics or antibiotic shots alone does not help, although sometimes if a bun is too poorly to undergo surgery they will put the bun on antibiotic shots long term. This wont cure the abscess though, and is considered more of a palliative care measure.

Thankfully my bun’s abscess cleared after this initial round of treatment, but it is not uncommon for buns to need multiple follow ups… but treating aggressively from the beginning helps increase chances of success.

Pricing of course varies by vet and region… but for reference my bun’s first round of treatment (dental surgery to remove the abscess and rotten molars and the antibiotics) was around $800 US.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

Hello DanaNM,

I took my bunny Budja’s to the vet mentioned today and boy am I relieved. Off the bat this vet knew her stuff I hardly had to say a thing. They checked her weight, ears, heart, feet and legs and looked in her mouth with light as good as they could just to get an overall picture of what’s going on and felt the bump in question. They did see some pus inside of her mouth. The impression is that Budja’s has a jaw abscess stemming from an infected tooth in her mouth. I have been given meloxicam, two antibiotics (baytril and azithromycin) and benebac to use until her surgery which is booked out a little far (December 15th was the first available that I took). It says if the abscess seems to have resolved prior to surgery, it says to contact so it may be discussed whether or not to discontinue the antibiotics. It says they will need to trim her teeth to help prevent recurrence of an abscess. Ideally jaw x-rays should be taken at the time of the dental to evaluate tooth roots and extent of abscess. They did put in (If not possible financially we will focus on treatment). The fee’s were not too bad for today it was 189.00 for the visit plus all of the medicines I received today.

The procedure entails buprenorphine, teeth trim, wound repair mild, sevoflurane first 30 mins followed by an additional 30 mins as well as a juvenile IH panel (bloodwork) I had to look that one up lol

It asks for the procedure whether or not I want to include an Elizabethan collar, do you recommend this for jaw surgery and what was your experience with using one on a rabbit if you have? Whatever will make her safer. The vet did also explain that it would probably need to be a partially open wound that would need to be flushed out. The estimate for this is just $377.00 USD and for the x-rays they left this as an option  $190.00 USD

The only downside I can see is that overnight patients are left unattended however there is an option to be transferred to a hospital providing overnight care at owner’s responsibility. I am not sure if this is something she would need or not but I’ll have to ask about that. There is also even an option to approve CPR or not.

So relieved to at least have some medication until then. She is a bit angry at me right now and I got bunny boxed when I tried to give her baytril and the bunny butt earlier. Oh and she is about 8.60 Pounds

How I wish… I had found this place sooner when I had Milo…. Hindsight sucks <3 Ironically I am going through this with Budja’s 5 days before Milo passed on…. Her symptoms roughly even started around the same time.

 

 

[DanaNM]

Usually elizabethian collars are not used with dental issues, but i imagine if the bun is scratching at an open wound it may be necessary. Usually they are only used if really needed, so owners are instructed to watch the bun carefully. Good pain management helps a lot.

Sounds like the vet is great! I would def see if you can be on a waiting list to be seen sooner if possible.

Most vets don’t have someone on staff overnight, but it can still be helpful to have them stay overnight as then you know they will be attended to first thing in the morning. Vets are much better at syringe feeding than we are (in general), so you know the bun will have a good feeding and fluids before they leave and again first thing in the morning.  24 hr vets often have very high fees for overnight stays as well. You can make the call when the time comes but I’ve usually just opted to have the bun stay at the normal vet until they say they are ready to come home. Traveling is also stressful for buns so this is usually the least stressful option.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

I hear you that’s definitely a concern as she does like to scratch around these areas even normally, I think more thank likely she will be spending the night there without supervision and the incision will probably be left partially open to allow for drainage, so I may need to add on the Elizabethan collar as an add on, I’m just worried about her freaking out with it on though the pain medication may prevent that as well so I’m still a bit undecided on that. They will be giving her a pretty good pain killer.

For sure, of all the vet’s I’ve seen in the past I have got to say so far she does seem to be the most knowledgeable and that is so hard to find in my area. I will definitely ask and see about that, I was a bit surprised it was so far out, for the time being they are only taking in exotic animals so that was how I got in, I think they are all booked up otherwise right now.

She is still a bit angry with me today, giving her; her meds hasn’t been too easy as she is either smacking the syringe out of my hand or hiding under the bed or growling or turning her head and running off the other way. She is however very active, running around, eating hay pretty well despite it and she seems to eat her pellets when she feels like it. She is going a little crazy with her litter box lately as far as pushing the care fresh out/aspen shavings and trying to even pick at the care fresh and eat it? I have tried putting aspen over it to prevent this but she’s a bit stubborn. Poops are looking pretty good, there is some small but for the most part nice round golden pellets. I give her the critical care when she allows it and earlier today I encouraged her to drink some water but I am noticing she is not drinking as much as she did. I do give her some greens at night with water on them though.

I think I may also ask when they put her under if they can trim her nails for me as she is not a rabbit I can get anywhere near her feet without her freaking out. She does seem to be doing ok for the moment I do hear her make some crunch like noises at times when I pet her and she does still move her jaw side to side but I think a little less now. I’m not sure how long I should wait with the antibiotics to see if it’s reducing the bump on her jaw.

 

 

[Cassie119300]

Budja’s is going in for surgery tomorrow thank god, I called them and explained how she is literally trying to spit out her medicine going on/off pellets water etc…. I was on a cancellation list but somehow they got me in sooner for her due to the situation going on. Keeping my fingers crossed right now. I just want to see her get better and eat and thrive again, I could not bear seeing her look miserable on her off days anymore… or it being this way.

[DanaNM]

That’s great they got her in earlier!

Keeping fingers and toes crossed for you!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

Budja’s is out of surgery and recovering the vet called me and told me she is doing well, she ate her spring greens and is pretty doped up right now lol. They gave her intravenous fluids for some dehydration due to her water intake not being so well. The good news is, it wasn’t tooth involved… she had a little hole in her cheek that developed into a little abscess which explains why the baytril seemed to be shrinking as well, poor thing. Except for the one side that wore down a little abnormally her teeth were good, they are going to give her a penicillin G injection today that will last for a week just in case there is some trouble giving her the baytril, pain medicine will be the main thing to get into her. So I will be giving her baytril for two more weeks. They closed the incision and got the abscess completely out. They did not find any foreign material but they think that is what probably caused it, most likely she had worked it out. Blood work was good will just be monitoring her for now when I pick her up in a few hours and she will be joining my fiancé and I for vacation next week! So happy it wasn’t worse.

[DanaNM]

That’s really great news! And amazing she ate a bit on her own, I’m sure she feels better having that thing out of there! What a relief!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

Definately! 🙂 I’m so happy she will feel better now

[Cassie119300]

Update:

Tonight I have just noticed that Budja’s has developed another abscess which seems to have moved to the left and underneath to the prior abscess area and is now directly underneath her jaw, the original surgery site is completely flat and healed perfectly even after suture removal, so I am a bit stumped as to how there is another one formed when the prior abscess was a hole that communicated with the outside of her cheek and the entire capsule was removed and she was on antibiotics for nearly a month.

It is a bit scary as it is so close to the neck area. There also two different nights where she was sleeping by my side and when she fell into what I think was a deep sleep it sounded like she was snoring but the noise appeared to be coming from her chest area… her eyes were open but I know rabbits can sometimes sleep with their eyes open. I haven’t heard this noise any other time when she was fully sleeping otherwise or at any other point but that also concerns me as it sounds wheeze like.

I only noticed the abscess when I went to rub her cheek area as usual and she jolted back from me and growled, yikes.  I’m not sure what the cause is this time as it didn’t appear to be a tooth related problem the last but I do know she chews on every area of wood she can get her teeth into and she does sometimes take chunks out of the wood, no joke. I’ve blocked off my dresser so she can’t get under where she is chipping off and chewing the wood.

I will be calling the vet’s in the morning first thing…. here’s to hoping we can get rid of this abscess for good.

She has also acted fine otherwise, after her surgery she was slow to go back onto her pellets for a few weeks but now she is eating everything normally and drinking normally as well which I why nothing seemed amiss, it must have appeared on her jaw just recently..

[DanaNM]

Oh dear, please do update us after you hear from the vet! Abscesses can pop up seemingly overnight. 🙁

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

Hello,

The vet spoke with me today and I will be taking her in Tuesday to get a full x-ray of her head done to see what could be causing another abscess to pop up again. Probably best to get an overall picture just incase there was something missed. I’m still waiting for a quote on the price. I know abscesses can be difficult to heal and have a high recurrence rate but has this happened to one of your bun’s before?

I still have 9 days worth of meloxicam so I’m giving that to her, I was giving the azithromycin another go again with the vet’s ok but unfortunately there is something about azithromycin that Budja’s absolutely detests. I even tried putting some in her greens and she was moving the bowl and flinging it to the other side of her hutch… So it was worth a try I guess but this happened last time as well with it where she refused it. It is cherry banana flavored. Meloxicam she takes fine though.

Yes this must have just appeared within the last day or so, because nothing seemed amiss before that. Crossing my fingers here, at least I have the meloxicam until then.

[DanaNM]

You might try mixing the med she doesnt like with some mashed banana. That usually works for my buns!

Sadly the bun I had with an abscess had some other serious issues going on and passed away. His abscess did resolve though (after a molar extraction and several weeks of pen-g injections). I think imaging is a good idea.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

Okay I will have to give that a go lol I did try mixing it with the banana baby food jar/carrot jar in the past but no go  I’m sorry about your bun, I’ve been reading up here and there about different treatments and use of penicillin G injections do seem pretty promising, I’m wondering if it is just down to a bad tooth that was missed or has really long overgrown roots. I was quoted 207 for the x-ray and x-ray interpretation with the remainder being a sedative called midazolam for the procedure which should take an hour. If it’s not complex and the vet can read it I should know the results that day otherwise they send it to someone else who can which will take 24-48 hours, so that’s not too bad. I know x-rays are pricey.

I did discuss the possibility of pen-g injections with them a month or so ago, I think we worked it out that they would get some shipped over from Cornell  and I would need to pick them up (it’s harder for me to get to cornell). When we found out the abscess was not from the tooth though that’s when we went ahead with the rest of the baytril and a pen g injection that lasted for a week, and all seemed well until I found this abscess about the same size as the other lol

The vet instructed for me to keep her away from large areas/chunks of wood.. So i may need to confine her to her hutch with a pen attached for now. She’s going a bit crazy with the wood everywhere (namely my box spring trying to chew through the fabric of the sheet I put over it to chew through to the wood. She will chew pretty much anything in site even with dozens of toys around. she prefers the ottoman and box spring and dressers lol

[Cassie119300]

So the x-rays came back and the new abscess/possibly an infected gland has no bone/teeth or skull involvement and is an entirely new one not connected with the prior one. Budja’s will need to go through surgery again to remove the new abscess followed with a biopsy of it to rule out any foreign bodies/type of material. I had to stop the azithromycin as it is giving Budja’s poopy butt, I will be going back soon to get her baytril until the time of the new surgery, it is scheduled for January 5th. I will be giving her baytril and meloxicam up until then. Fingers crossed this time is it, in the meantime I am looking into solutions to get a metal bed frame so she will no longer be tempted to chew the boxspring as well as doing something about the dresser she is picking off wood and chewing on, I can’t imagine a rabbit could give themselves a splinter two times in a row? nothing foreign showed on the x-ray though.

Definitely a very strange case.

[LBJ10]

If the abscess doesn’t involve any structures, then they should be able to cleanly remove it. When it involves teeth or bone, sometimes a vet will use antibiotic bead implants to help treat it internally.

[Cassie119300]

Thank god it doesn’t involve anything else, this time it’s just underneath her chin extending towards her neck area but not quite on the neck thankfully. I’m at a loss as to how it’s happened twice other than she has managed to get a splinter twice, I guess the biopsy should rule out any other causes though to be safe. The prior one was full of pus but no foreign materials were found. Strange.  I’m just not sure how another happened in such a short time frame. She is doing well for the moment  since stopping the azithromycin she doesn’t appear to be having mucky bottom anymore I have also been giving her fibreplex in the meantime to stabilize her stomach more in the meantime, I will be picking up the baytril for her on Monday as we have a huge winter storm rolling in that’s made travel impossible. She is drinking and eating fine and carrying on normally.

[Cassie119300]

So today is the day of Budja’s surgery, I will be bringing her in shortly..  In addition to a biopsy I also asked about getting a culture done so I will be getting her surgery done, a biopsy of the abscess site, and a culture to see what antibiotics will be effective. Thankfully they should be able to remove the entire capsule of the abscess again like last time. Hoping to get to the root of it all for once and for all.

[DanaNM]

Sending good vibes for Budja!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

Budja’s is doing well and recovering well from her surgery, we are waiting for the biopsy and culture results should be sometime later this week. By day 2-3 she was doing mid air jumps and binkies even. They never found anything such as a splinter when they did the operation or anything foreign, so we shall see.

[Cassie119300]

So I received the biopsy results today the culture results are still pending. The biopsy showed cocci bacteria and showed that it was just an abscess so it confirmed it was not a lymph node or anything else involved. The vet told me while we wait for the culture results to come back she will be speaking with the idexx lab to see if there is some better way of preventing this from happening again as it’s happened twice now, she believes it was wood splinter migration but no wood splinter was found either time, nonetheless both abcesses and the capsule has been removed entirely each time. I have pretty much barricaded off everything I can but Budja’s will chew any wood available still (including the wood toys I got her) (my desk is one she loves as well).

[Ana William]

I take my rabbit to the dentist at least twice a year for this same issue, because it has generated sores in its mouth and it stops eating

[Cassie119300]

Oh yeah, that is what happened her first go around with this. This time however there was no mouth sore. Interesting.  I’ve pretty much barricaded every wooden surface I can think of apart from a few I need to get more wire grids for. The biggest culprit is my boxspring which I had to entirely encase as she was actually gnawing through the fabric to get to the wood, she has also chewed on the plastic edges of her corner litter pan, not so much now.

[DanaNM]

Penicillin injections are a very standard treatment for rabbit abscesses, so it’s good you got the culture to confirm! Usually a relatively long course is giving, and the injections are given at home as a sub-cutaneous shot. I’ve had to give them before… it was stressful the first couple times but honestly it’s easier than syringe feeding and the bun doesn’t even seem to notice.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

That is what I’ve been reading, I think I would be more afraid of my bunny being skittish while receiving the shot and moving, she is quite skittish. Was it very costly? That’s another concern. I know they can give weekly Penicillin injections they have readily available there I’m not sure if that’s the same kind of thing or not, but to get the other kind they would have to send for it from Cornell University have it shipped and I have no idea what that would entail cost wise. Eeek. Staying hopeful there is no reoccurrence now the abscess has been entirely removed.

[Cassie119300]

So, the surgical site seems to have healed pretty good and it kind of felt a little bit lumpy underneath the stitch area a few days ago which I put down to the skin, but I’ve noticed that almost a line of lumpy dense like material has formed right back onto that right side of her jaw again, it hasn’t quite grown in a hard circular lump as usual with her abscesses but I’ve got no idea what is going on again, this seems entirely separate from the surgical area. I’m puzzled. She tries to jump away from me when I try to gently feel it.

[DanaNM]

As far as the injections, I don’t recall it being any more expensive than a standard oral antibiotic treatment.

From everything I’ve read on abscesses, you have the best chances of curing them completely if you are as aggressive as possible with treatment as early in the process as possible. With my bun, it was surgically cleaned out and then followed up with 6 weeks of injections (I think every other day? I can’t fully remember now). He wasn’t jumpy at all, but having an assistant to hold her still while you give the shot would be helpful (especially at first).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

I may have to go for the at home injections after they show me how as unfortunately getting there is a bit of a struggle, I’m hoping this new thing cropped up is not another abscess in the same area again as they took out the entire abscess and capsule this second time around, its like a long bumpy line from behind the jaw bone that travels back about an inch, as if it moved from the suture site over in the last few days. She is also doing that strange chewing motion again. She is still eating and drinking, pooping normally. The place is about an hour out on difficult to reach backroads in the winter time. Just have to wait and see how it goes, and see the vet can look this new area over when I see them on Tuesday to get her sutures removed. I notice the vet’s around my area seem to do a week long Pencillin injection, but I was told for the later it would have to be ordered from Cornell.

[Cassie119300]

So we are back from the vet’s today, Budja’s had her sutures removed, and the vet looked in her mouth just to see if there was anything visible inside at all as Budja’s still makes that frequent chewing movement. The vet also believes that yes we are dealing with a third abscess now and it just keeps seeming to migrate to different area’s. The culture showed the bacteria is sensitive ( the aerobic bacteria) to Penicillin and Chloramphenicol. The vet had me restart her on the Baytril (I’ve been giving that to her the last few days anyways after I had seen the abscess reoccurred) I had only stopped it for two to three days max interestingly enough when the abscess reappeared. At this point, she recommended I take Budja’s to Cornell University for CT Scan to rule out anything foreign, any tracts, ducts, anything that cannot be seen. The vet is stumped as nothing has been found and the x-rays showed it was not connected to anything, there appears to be nothing visible going on. Yet the abscess keeps reoccurring after two surgery’s where the abscess and the abscess capsule were completely surgically removed, and right now it’s looking like Budja’s will have to under go a third surgery here at some point. The costs are piling up as you can imagine, and I’m not even sure the CT is an option for me financially at this point, plus I don’t drive, I know my dad isn’t on board for that one.  Right now I have baytril and meloxicam to get me by, the chloramphenicol needs to be crushed and compounded and then will be sent to the vet’s office (it will be in by next week) so this is until then. I’m not sure if chloramphenicol will be enough. I discussed the option of using Bicillin to the vet, I have sent the vet a few links regarding the case studies on that. For today I did have them inject Budja’s with the Penicillin G shot that will last for the entire week just to see if it helps her any. Interestingly enough, the last surgery she had it seemed it took longer for this abscess to reoccur when she was on baytril and had the one Penicillin G shot. Then whatever azithromycin I could manage to get into her, the azithromycin seemed to give her poopy butt though so that was discontinued. This time no Penicillin G injection just the baytril and bam… 2-3 days after I stopped the baytril the abscess was already back and growing. What started out as a little bumpy line along her jaw then migrated over her jaw bone and a softish abscess. This abscess is ever changing. So pretty much it is not known what is continuing to cause the issue or what actually ever started it to begin with. I’m not sure if the Chloramphenicol will take it out or not on it’s own. I did question whether once a week injections would work, as I was reading with bicillin they needed to be done every day to every other day, or everyday for penicillin g alone, the vet has learned that the opposite is true. I asked everything I could think of regarding this and different treatments. Bicillin I know has been successful when surgery wasn’t an option, the vet was also worried it would be difficult for me to do every other day as Budja’s is difficult to give injections to, I would need to learn how, could cause many sterile abscesses  etc… So yeah, back to square one. If anyone has any other idea’s please let me know. Pasturella was another thought I had but that did not appear in the culture and she does not appear to have any URI symptoms. Stumped.

[DanaNM]

I’m very sorry to hear this, that is not great news. 🙁 I think it would be good to at least get a quote on the CT scan. Costs have come down on them a bit. I say this because unfortunately the CT might reveal the problems are more extensive than realized. It would not be good news, but knowing whether curing them is even possible would save you and Budja from repeated surgeries. Since these abscesses keep coming back it does seem like there could be larger problems lurking.

My understanding is that injections only are given in cases where the bun is too old or weak to survive surgery. They will not cure the abscess but aim to prevent it from growing more, so the bun can have some more time on palliative care.

I’m so sorry you are going through this, I’ve been through similar issues with a bridge bunny. It’s awful. 🙁

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

Yeah, they are currently in the process of calling them and trying to get a quote/schedule something in for me. I mean I asked about elongated roots being a possibility, something in one of her gums (because of the repetitive chewing motions) heck I’ve heard stories where a rabbit does this if it happened to get a piece of small hay stuck in the back of its mouth, which was of course a much easier fix once they were able to find it. I also know x-rays might not show something a CT scan can ( I’m a human testament to that one). So I mean it’s definately possible it could be something that was there all along from the start of all of this. When this originally happened, a hole was found in her cheek which had a duct that led to the outside of her cheek, there was pus on the inside then, nothing now. So I’m thinking there may be some foreign thing that got trapped within that duct/in-between that cheek area and the outside and is just sitting there. Whatever it is, I think Budja’s definitely feels it but 2-3 weeks after her first surgery she had kind of stopped that chew thing.

If you dont mind me asking, what happened with your bun and what treatments were tried? Was the cause ever found?

So there is a study on bicillin where apparently it seemed to completely eradicate all together some abscesses, and some people swore by it.. I just thought hey, maybe a way to stop putting her through so many surgeries, but I would think a surgery + injections at the very least. I’m not sure if Chloramphenicol will help or not, but strangely the baytril has seemed to always reduce the size of the abscesses to some degree not sure about this one though. She’s got this little scab area still where the sutures were I’m keeping an eye on as well its a bit bumpy and scabby. She’s been shedding a lot of fur I think due to stress but she’s been eating and drinking fine apart from one sluggish day.

I just don’t see what else could be causing it but some foreign material, but to the vet’s knowledge none of this has been found, so I’m just not sure it could be anything else but foreign material or at best a missed area where bacteria was allowed to spread. Honestly, when I felt it about 5 days after the surgery it had a little bumpy area going on by the sutures anyways.

[DanaNM]

Sadly that bun passed away, but not from the abscess. His case was a bit different because his molars were basically just rotting and falling out of his head, and they never knew why (he was only 1.5). The first abscess resolved with surgery and injections, but he had several other molars extracted after that. several months later he passed away suddenly and the vet could not find a clear cause. My guess is perhaps bone cancer (which can present in the jaw in young rabbits) or a genetic problem.

In any case, it sounds like you are doing your best for Budja and she has a good care team.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LBJ10]

I’m sorry you didn’t get good news. Did the vet ever consider using antibiotic beads with either of the surgeries? It’s where these beads with an antibiotic in them are surgically implanted at the abscess site after the bulk of the abscess has been removed. They are typically used when the infection is in the bone, so it’s possible the vet didn’t think it was necessary. If they keep recurring though, it seems like they would have been worth a shot.

[Cassie119300]

I’m really sorry that happened, it definitely sounds like it was some bone issue or genetic problem was at play for sure. When I rescued Budja’s I was told she approximately 1.5 years old  which was around last November, so that would make her about 2.5 now. She was living outside in a hutch after already being rehomed once before and the person was relocating and decided of all places to put it on Facebook marketplace, my older sister had messaged me about it knowing I had just lost my previous bunny (Milo) and I said yes to taking her in as if I did not, my sister said she was going to try and take Budja’s in herself and I did not want that happening, because to let that happen would be dooming Budja’s life from what she was to be rescued from again. I knew I could at least provide better care for her. Thank you my partner and I are trying our best with all of this right now, having no answers is certainly frustrating.

[Cassie119300]

LBJ10, I did actually bring this up to the vet and they said it was possible, though it is commonly used when the abscess site is left open, in Budja’s case they have been able to excise the abscess and the capsule in it’s entirety twice now. I did a little more research on that last night and it seems, if the incision is closed there can be a problem again of the body treating the antibiotic beads as foreign and trying to make another abscess around it unfortunately. It is a very good idea though and I was thinking the same thing. There was a case on medirabbit where they discussed using one or two different antibiotic type beads when the wound was left open. It seems everything and anything can cause these abscesses to crop up, leave the sutures in a little too long , different tracts forming whilst you have removed the abscess, etc… it’s insane.

[LBJ10]

Sometimes they do just have to leave it open. It looks horrid, but sometimes it’s the only way. I’m glad you asked about the beads though. It’s good to keep your options open. A good vet is also not afraid to try new things. Mine is always willing to “experiment”. Perhaps you could try a combination of antibiotics? Sometimes vets will pair an oral one with an injection one.

[Cassie119300]

True, I think in Budja’s case an open incision probably won’t go down to well, she is notoriously difficult, she tolerates me feeling around the area currently but not for long before she is popcorning on me or jumping, or trying to swat me. So I’m thinking an open incision might be a tad worse with this, not too sure. She get’s very spooked very quick. I just keep thinking in the back of my head, there must be something in her mouth, there must be some tooth issue still not found if she just excessively moves her mouth around like she’s got peanut butter caught in there at times. Right now this abscess feels like a golf ball under there, there is a slight scab from the surgery/incisions that still remains after the suture removal but apart from a few brown crusty spots on it, it doesn’t seem so bad. Is it normal for bunnies to get some cecotrophs on their lips? I notice she gets a few bits of it stuck to the corner of her lips and seems to be cecotrophs eating quite a bit. I’m still awaiting the vet’s phone call to see what’s going on with cornell/ct scan, the price etc.. and the anaerobic culture result. A part of me wishes the chloramphenicol will be the answer and will tackle this on it’s own… but I know that’s not likely.

[Cassie119300]

So I think after reading about how chloramphenicol can be hazardous to human health I’ve decided to opt for Pencillin G injections, the vet will set up an appointment to show me how, as opposed to chloramphenicol. They are still waiting to hear back from Cornell University on the price of the C-T if this can be done. We are going to try it at a more frequent dosing rate. I asked what the pricing would be on it, they mentioned them drawing out syringes for me. They did say that in both surgeries everything was completely removed and it was even made sure there was no chance of residual bacteria, we’re going to hold back from the antibiotic beads as they are most frequently used in cases where it is the only option and the wound is left open. They also said they know it is very frustrating and that Budja’s is lucky to have me as an owner and that she can tell I care about her very much.  So we shall give this a go. Not going to lie I’m very nervous, but I’m desperate to get her better.

[DanaNM]

I think when I did the Pen-g injections they also gave me pre-filled syringes. The medicine is very thick so it would be hard to draw up yourself. Once you get them and they give you a demo I can give you some more tips. The first few times are scary, but it gets easier after that!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

They said it would be about 20.00 a month, that’s not bad at all, I did ask about extra syringes to have on hand just in case. Thank you I really appreciate that. They are looking into ordering the combination product for me!! I did ask about putting saline into the solution as I read it can cause a burning sensation for the rabbit? I’m not 100% about that one though. I won’t lie I’m pretty nervous but I’ve got to do it, for her, it’s our only hope. I unfortunately had no choice but to turn down the Cornell C-T and Consultation, it was quoted at 1,000 – 2,000 and it’s just not doable. The 400+ surgery is pretty pricey on it’s own and I’m going to see if they might be able to do another dental on her while she’s under just to be extra sure…

[LBJ10]

I’m glad you are going to try the pen G. Some have had luck by combining that with an oral antibiotic. It may not cure the abscess completely though, just shrink it to a manageable size.

[Cassie119300]

So what I’m actually going to do is a combination of two different things, known as Bicillin. So it is Penicillin G Benzathine/Penicillin G Procaine combined together. I’ve heard about it combined with Azithromycin I did have to discontinue that one on Budja’s though due to the poopy butt.

 

This was a study I had read on the idea. http://people.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm as well as some other places around the net.

[DanaNM]

Yep, Bicillin is a pretty common one for abscesses!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

My vet was a little bit weary on it at first as she said the study was about 20 years old, I sent them a few other links, and after going between the decision of a almost 2,000 C-T scan that there was no way I could afford or trying this method, I was told she would see if she could get someone to order it for me and she could teach me how to give the injections, so I was quite happy when I read that.  I never heard about Bicillin until just recently when this issue appeared with Budja’s then when I was reading up on some things I found the study. Then I found a few more and a few others. That was the game changer for me.

[Rainn]

<p style=”padding-left: 40px;”>Best of luck, it’s amazing how hard you and your doctor are working on treating these abscesses, all you can do is your very best. My bunny Rain also had recurrent abscesses and passed away recently as a result of those abscesses preventing her from eating anything at all without choking, she got very weak despite every effort, but her vet had not been anywhere near as aggressive with treatment as yours has been. When she had her first (cheek) abscess in May 2022 it needed to be drained continuously for weeks, while she was on Baytril, then when she was finally given an injection of amiscasin it dried up completely and she was abscess free for about 9 months, even ate hay again occasionally. When she got her 2nd abscess it was on the other cheek, then a few days later another appeared right under her chin which was huge and like a golf ball. The cheek one cleared up on Baytril, the chin one however seemed to be what prevented her from getting better, along with losing a tooth. Possibly in her case it was attached to internal organs. Combined with elongated tooth roots that probably already made it hard to breathe, the abscess just made it extremely difficult for her to eat, even the vets office couldn’t manage to get in much with forced syringe feeding.  As long as your bun still wants to eat that is a very good sign, and that the abscess is external not internal.  Also a good sign that Budja has energy to swat you away. Great that you guys can keep track of the bacteria and know the specifics so you can control it better. Fingers crossed that the Bicillin works out!  That rabbit IS incredibly lucky to have a friend that is willing to do all these complicated treatments for her. It’s hard, sometimes you might wish you could just learn everything overnight and become a vet yourself for your bunny. But you’re already doing the best, and you love Budja, that’s what matters. Give her lots of kisses and I love you’s ❤️ Keep us updated when you can, things will be okay.</p>

[Cassie119300]

I’m so sorry about your bunny Rain, truly. It’s really hard when your trying your all and sometimes we just don’t get dealt with the right hand unfortunately, I’ve been there with my prior rabbit Milo. I definitely agree this vet is working hard as well, It’s nice to finally have a vet that is open to new ideas and willing to try different things, they really try to work with you and do whatever is possible to help. Oh yeah Budja’s is definitely feisty haha I called her my little bull dog sometimes as that’s what she reminds me of when she gets in that mode. For now I am on Baytril with her but will be stopping the baytril when I start the injections. I am only going to be doing Penicillin Injections as unfortunately the vet was not able to get a hold of the Bicillin product, I think something weird is going on with supply issues/FDA is now trying to clear Bicllin out of the stores so even farmers etc.. cannot treat their cattle etc. without getting a prescription, but there’s something weird if even the vet’s are having a hard time getting it, it must be everyone is in a panic. The strange thing is though, I saw the product in stock online on a few different places one day, literally overnight everything was gone. So unfortunately, we are limited to just the Penicillin G injected at frequent rates which I will be learning how to administer tomorrow, at least the bacteria seems to be susceptible to that just how it stays that way. Her surgery has been scheduled for February 23rd. I don’t think between my last rabbit Milo or my rabbit Budja’s I’ve had it that easy unfortunately, but I can’t complain, I look at it as if they both came to me for a reason and I wouldn’t change it. Fingers crossed.  Thank you so much <3

[Cassie119300]

So unfortunately the Penicillin Injections are not going so well. The first time I had luck and it went in uneventfully, these last few times however, no matter what I do… the needle is not going through the other side of the skin or anything weird like that, but even if I’m keeping the skin held or keeping it pinched while pulling out the needle the penicillin is leaking out and I don’t know why. They even gave me larger needles for when I went home so I do have larger needles. Unfortunately today before I grabbed my wet gauze she managed to lick some of it off of her fur in a matter of mere seconds. I’m just not sure what I’m doing wrong, but I’ve left a message for the vet explaining this and saying maybe I should just get the chloramphenicol and maybe azithromycin to double attack the abscess as this just doesn’t seem to be working out well and I’m afraid she’s not getting much medicine into her. Her surgery is not until the 23rd of this month and unfortunately I do believe the abscess has grown a bit even though I only just recently finished the baytril. The anaerobic results I’m still waiting on. So frustrating.

[DanaNM]

Hmm, I wonder if you aren’t actually pushing the needle in far enough? Or you could be poking out the other side, it’s very easy to do that by mistake.

I like to make the skin tent kind of a triangle/pyramid using three fingers, and then poke the needle between two fingers so there is more space for it.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

I havent seen the needle come through the other side, I have been making the tent and then putting the needle in the tent area not all the way with the needle but I’m not really feeling a “pop” or anything so to speak when the needle has been going in, but the moment I take out the needle the penicillin is all over the place, I’m quite confused. I can actually feel the needle underneath the skin too oddly enough, it is hard to find a good spot of skin of her that will lift up. Still waiting to hear back from the vet, I didn’t want to just give up and throw in the towel, but I have been trying consistently every other day and just seem to be having no luck and got so afraid when she licked that amount today.

[DanaNM]

If you aren’t feeling the “pop” that seems to me like you aren’t actually penetrating the skin and are just in the fur. It can also help to wet the fur so you can actually see the skin itself.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

Thank you, I will try that and see if that works a bit better, it’s been confusing because it looks like it goes in and I’ve read something about there being two layers of skin? so maybe im just getting the needle under the surface or something weird hence why it all comes back out. She is very furry by the way so that would probably make it tons easier.

[Cassie119300]

So the other night I did manage to get the penicillin into her sucessfully. We had some very cold nights here the last two nights so I heated up a water bottle and put a sock over it for her which she seemed to really like, to help. However, just this morning I woke up and I smelled a strange funny smell, I went to look at budja’s, she was in her hutch grooming herself…. and then I noticed the abscess had reduced in size (still a bit angry red looking) and there was a white point with pus on it. So sometime last night this abscess must have burst, she is doing ok…. but I can’t find any of the abscess fluid anywhere apart from just the smell in her top hutch which I’ll have to replace with new hay. I took some guaze wet it with some warm sanitized water and wiped her off a little bit as much as she would allow me… she was trying to fight me and the guaze a little, she is eating her pellets now and excessively grooming/licking that area. Any tips? The vet office is not open until tomorrow and  I’m not really sure what the protocol would be with this. I will be giving her, her other penicillin shot this evening.  The smell is god awful.

[LBJ10]

I imagine it will be OK to wait. It’s not like there is anything there that wasn’t already there. The abscess bursting might actually be a good thing because the pressure has been relieved. I would just clean it up as best you can and then notify the vet tomorrow. They may or may not want to see her.

[Cassie119300]

Yes, thankfully the pressure is off, yeah that’s true, I was just worried about her ingesting the abscess pus due to the excessive grooming of her dewlap area, but the abscess skin itself she can’t really get to.  I have washed and dried all her blankets to keep her really clean, and extra cleaned her litter box/anything her chin area may come into contact with. She is still being very touchy about me going anywhere near it but I will try and clean it a bit more later (hay and stuff is trying to stick to it). I believe it has stopped oozing now. True, I also got her other penicillin shot in successfully today so who knows… it would be nice if it took it down for good between the abscess popping and the penicillin. I have also put a new clean sock on the water bottle and warmed it up for her to rest of if she wishes just to keep getting as much out as possible.

[Cassie119300]

I am bringing Budja’s into the vet’s on Wednesday to have it flushed out. I will also be picking up azithromycin and more penicillin, to kind of dual attack this thing with the penicillin and more metacam. The vet actually said this may mean not doing a surgery.

[DanaNM]

Fingers crossed!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[LBJ10]

Yes, let’s hope so!

[Cassie119300]

Definately! Fingers crossed… As of last night I could see that the area was still oozing a bit so good thing it’s still continuing to flush itself out, I’ve been putting warm guaze on it 2x a day just to make things a bit easier and to encourage more of the pus and germs to come out (also this way there will be no scab the vet would have to “pick off” hopefully yikes… I cringe about that, but I have seen that this is necessary? in order to flush it out. The procedure tomorrow should take about an hour tomorrow.

[Bam]

It is common for burst or opened abscesses to scab over so the bun caretaker needs to open it up daily or even twice daily. This is obv disgusting, but perfectly in order.  Rabbits are “primitive” animals, meaning that in the wild, they dont live long lives, so their major “aim” is to get as many babies as they possibly can during their short lives. Their bodies wall off infections rather than fighting them off.

House rabbits that get good vet care can overcome this with appropriate antibiotics and live very long lives compared to their wild ancestors.

ETA: The bun might very well eat the oozing pus and debris. It’s gross to us humans, but it’s ok and normal. The bacteria will not survive the stomach acid.

[Cassie119300]

They flushed out the abscess today and only had to create a small hole, you can barely see it there. It was still leaking some fluid when we went in today, the capsule is still there and it was filled with manuka honey. I will be giving Budja’s Azithromycin along with the injectable penicillin as well as putting the manuka honey on the outside of the hole as it would be difficult to really get anything in there. The hope is that this will all be enough in conjunction hopefully without the need of another surgery. No anaerobic results have come back yet from the lab they are going to check in with them for an answer, I just recently was reading though that these can take a long time and can be difficult. The study I read was very promising for azithromycin/penicillin and I think having the manuka honey may just help that extra bit. Poor Budja’s has been through enough. Fingers crossed.

[DanaNM]

I think it’s really promising that it opened to the outside and they flushed it out!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Cassie119300]

Me too! Incredible too that the opening seemed to be from where one of the sutures had been after her last surgery

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