Humping – really a sign of dominance?

[Karla]

I have been wondering about this for a very long time: when bunnies hump each other during bonding sessions, is it really a sign of dominance or is it in fact a sign of stress?

Where I live, humping used to be regarded as a sign of dominance in dogs, but for the past few years, everybody seems to dismis that theory and claim it is generally a sign of stress (in a few intact dogs, it may be a sign of dominance, but often not).

And so, when I look at my bunnies, I have to say, that I don’t think that humping has ever been a sign of dominance in them. The few times I have seen humping is when I have introduced a new bunny (except for Karl, who is an occassional stress-humper), and to me that makes sense that it is a stressful event and that the humping a sign of stress in this case. For instance, whenever I have introduced a new bunny, Karl does not hump that particular bunny, but will hump Molly instead. That would not make sense if he was trying to show dominance to the new bunny. And Molly has never done any humping or been humped by the newcomers, so apparently she is not part of any hiearchy.

So, I am not sure I agree when people mention humping as a sign of dominance in bonding.

Perhaps it is different for intact bunnies, although I am not sure.

Any thoughts or experiences on this?

 

 

[LizzieKnittyBun]

Has Karl not been neutered? If so, he might be humping because he’s sexually frustrated…

[jerseygirl]

I believe it can be related to stress. Often is. Like sometimes in a pair that has been long term bonded and one starts humping, I would say that is related to stress. I’ve read similar things to what you say with Karl humping Molly at certain times. That some change in environment can cause one to hump another uncharacteristically. In bonding it can be either cause or because somebunny just wants to hump. lol There are other dominance play outs as you know. Like chasing out of areas, bossily requesting grooms etc.

[Karla]

I’m just wondering if we are completely wrong, when we say it is a matter of dominance, when it happens in bonding sessions? It is such a stress-ful event, that it is likely to prompt humping.

Like as you mention chasing (or even biting) is a much more explicit way of showing dominance, which would be more natural. I mean, in what animal kingdom do you simulate coitus on your own sex to show you are superior?

LKB: Karl is neutered. I only mentioned him, because he is in fact a stress-humper. If something new happens here, he will hump Molly a few times until he has calmed down.

[LizzieKnittyBun]

Yeah, I was wondering! You’ve always seemed to me like a very responsible bun owner : P

Remy, despite his weensiness, is Alpha bun in the warren. He rarely humps, but he does chase poor little Momo around the living room at times. Then she gets tired and flops and he licks her, lol.

[RabbitPam]

The research on rabbit behavior is comparatively new, so we may need to rethink the causes of humping. Frankly, the one who humps is going to stress out the humpee, even if it is dominance.

But I think stress has become our generation’s catch-all word to explain behavior and illness in all mammals that we don’t yet understand. Much like “suffering from the vapors” was an expression used about 200 years ago. Once studies manage to get into specifics, we may know more about the various causes of humping. It does show sexuality in unaltered buns of course; it does indicate dominance; and you’ve observed it shows responses to upsetting stimulus so maybe it is comforting. Like a child grabbing its mother’s leg when worried.

One of the hard parts here is changing commonly held beliefs when new data arrives.

[jerseygirl]

I think mounting without humping is dominance. Humping is not always dominance. Confusing huh! I see Rumball go after Jersey “with intent” ;o) and it seems purely hormonal. Of course I can’t say for sure but he does do that hum. It’s different in an established pair. In bonding, I guess other body language can tell us a bit more on what’s behind humping.

[Sarita]

I definitely think it is stress and it can also be dominance – really just like anything it can be many things and you have to interpret it based on the circumstances.

I had a bonded pair (2 spayed females) and one of the females humped the other when she got excited (usually in relation to food).

[Elrohwen]

I think it can be stress, absolutely. During bonding, Hannah was a humping machine – she is easily stressed, but also quite dominant, so it’s anybody’s guess which was the cause (could be both). However, as soon as I moved them in together, Otto began humping her for about a week. He’s the opposite of dominant and I’ve never seen him show any other dominant traits, so I think it was a stress reaction to being in a new situation with her. Hannah was very stressed out by the new pen area and wasn’t humping Otto, and he took the opportunity to take out his stress (and react to her stress) by humping her. After a few days things went back to normal and she went back to chasing him – he has never humped her or attempted to hump her again except for the other times I was doing cementing in small cages (ie other stressful situations).

[Sarita]

I also know that grooming as in over grooming can be stress related. It’s not always I’m grooming you because I love you.

I think it’s like crying in humans – you can cry when you are sad and you can cry when you are happy – you just have to relate it to the circumstances in which it takes place.

That’s why I think it can be difficult to really interpret what people are asking when their rabbit has certain behaviors and you have to start asking questions – what are the circumstances in which this particular behavior is happening.

[Monkeybun]

I know with Monkey it is dominance. She will hump her little tail off, then immediately go around front and demand grooms.

[Elrohwen]

Interesting that you mentioned grooms MB, because it reminded me of something mine do – often Hannah will start to chase Otto (she would probably hump him if he would sit still), and he has learned that if he turns around and faces her, she’ll stop. Sometimes he even puts his head down and demands grooms, and she does it! Haha. So how dominant can her chasing behavior be if she’s so ready to stop and give him a few quick grooms instead of chasing him? I think she’s probably chasing more out of stress, and when he presents her with another option to relieve stress, she takes that instead (and I’ll say that she’s a rough groomer – it doesn’t appear to be out of love). Hey, at least Otto gets his eyes cleaned instead of being chased – he’s no dummy.

[Deleted User]

I am one of the proponents of humping being a dominant thing as even in stressful situations the submissive rabbits don’t mount or hump.

[Karla]

You’ve done a million bondings, so you have a bit more observations to back you up than I have, but Karl is and always has been the submissive bunny (if by submissive, we mean the one who grooms?) and he will hump in stressful situation. I have a vague memory of him humping Jack as well, when we moved just two days after Jack came to us, but I am not sure. He does take it out on Molly occassionaly when changes occur here.

[Deleted User]

no, not a million! I could be wrong. The thing is it is definitely not as simple as ‘the dominant one humps to show his dominance’. There is more to it. I never met a submissive but humping rabbit… this is a new twist! Or, maybe the dominance thing isn’t as rigid as we like to believe, maybe these hierarchies evolve and change. It is also possible that mounting during bonding has a different meaning than mounting at other times…

[Karla]

So, perhaps this is time to ask another question. I have seen in another forum someone (who is against keeping bunnies together) that it may look cute that one bunny grooms the other, but that you should really feel sorry for the one who has to do this. I don’t remember the wording, but she made it sound like it was kind of slavery.

Anyways, so someone told me that she had to convince her daughter who had read this that nature is not made out that way, that grooming can not be a “horrible” thing. And that made me think as well…is grooming really a sign of dominance-submission in rabbits?

I mean, if bunnies really were so hierarchical, I guess we wouldn’t see two bunnies living together grooming each other?

Not sure if I am making myself clear, but I was just wondering. Of course, I know that grooming is a way of showing love and affection as well (and perhaps for the most part), but is it perhaps ever a sign of dominance-submission? Unless, as you say, Petzy, that the hirarchy is ever changeable.

Any thoughts about this?

[Deleted User]

Grooming a type of slavey… that is a new way of thinking. I guess, we will never know until rabbits start talking to us in words!
–even if it were a burden, to have to be grooming another rabbit, it does break up the monotony of llife as a single bun…

[Elrohwen]

Petzy, what about Otto? He went through a humping phase during cementing, but he has never been dominant in any other way and is even more submissive with Hannah than he is with us. At the time I thought he was potentially trying to gain dominance, but now I don’t think that was the case. Like Karl, it’s just not in his nature at all. I’ve always wondered why he did that, so I’m open to interpretation. My personal feeling is that it was stress or something, but not dominance.

Also, my personal thought about grooming is that it is used for dominance, and it’s important in establishing who is dominant, but at the end of the day it’s practical – in the wild, it’s important for everybody to stay well groomed to check for ticks, cuts, etc and keep their fur clean. It’s a social thing that helps bond the warren as well. So while there is some dominant/submissive aspect to it, I don’t think it’s so cut and dry that the submissive bunny is the grooming slave while the dominant bunny eats it up. I think they’re willing to give and take for the good of the warren which is why we see so much mutual grooming.

In my pair, Otto will groom Hannah lightly on the head – he’s not very thorough or very practical. Just a few licks around her ears to show he loves her or something. When Hannah grooms, she goes for his eyes and very clearly is trying to get the gunk out of them. Maybe since she’s the dominant bun, she views grooming as her duty to help keep her buddy clean, not as a random act of kindness. She’s very practical about it. Then again, I could just be putting thoughts into their heads! I’d need to see a lot more pairs to know if it’s a trend at all.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I really disagree with humping being dominant.

We are so quick to say that other natural behaviors in animals are play (running, jumping, chasing, chewing) but when it comes to something -dare I say-sexual…we have to label it as -abnormal…’dominance’. Why isn’t it play?

Read here: THe american veterinary behaviorist association position on dominance. Now this pertains to dogs, but learning theory and behavior apply to ALL animals. Secondly-this association is for veterinary behaviorists-that means these people are both masters or phD in behavior AND veterinarians…they know their stuff

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ogegp4bEegMJ:www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%2520statement.pdf+american+veterinary+behaviorist+position+on+dominance&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShj3K7aVOUo6tatJdN5gKnt7_X75WpH5rwaTVzj4piFRK101LTpppV4CNSzS-_k4kqJbyRn-5ZD6WbT3QfEHTfuO2fvQ7-U7kA6bK8FZ0l-tnnaasXZuUYBz_97It2zyPgw13Xz&sig=AHIEtbS2jrSQCDYvCxm19ABVM4rql5UGBw

[Deleted User]

Posted By Elrohwen on 08/19/2010 11:43 AM

Petzy, what about Otto? He went through a humping phase during cementing, but he has never been dominant in any other way and is even more submissive with Hannah than he is with us.

 

I remember your bonding Elrohwen. They were both in humpfest mode! I think it can happen, too, when rabbits get very excited over the presence of a new rabbit, even before any relationship has been sorted out.

 

 

[Sarita]

Hmmm…I don’t see dogs being at all like rabbits – didn’t read the link though cause I’m too lazy to cut and paste. I love my vet and she’s great at medicine but I don’t think she knows as much about rabbit behavior as I do.

[jerseygirl]

Thanks K&K! You get access to some interesting stuff. I shall be reading this later.

I agree Elrohwen. I don’t think it’s cut & dry either. When you look into the term allogrooming, it goes into various reasons for in in many species. Grooming during bonding may be a dominance play somewhat but it’s also a way of interacting, bonding, learning to trust etc. In a pair or group post bond I think it’s not much to do with dominance at all. Rumball always runs into the room, runs up to Jersey and starts grooming her. He just likes to. Between them I don’t really see a clear heirachy. I had read also that it can calm and lower the heart rate of the one doing the grooming too.

I also at one point wondered if the groomer was considered sumissive and that my rabbits might view ME as a subordinate (well, I guess I am!) because I pet/groom them. But I don’t think that is so. It’s a mutual thing. So I agree that this can be true of other behaviours (such as mounting ) also. That it doesn’t always stem from a power play and that it can mean different things post bond.
Like spraying. I’ve read that it’s a way rabbits will claim or mark another but I’ve also read they can spray as a stress release. I think same could be true of humping too.

When this thread started I was reading this HRS article. It sort of goes into the subtle changes you see in a rabbit relationship developing. http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-11/rabbits-teaching-rabbits.html

[Elrohwen]

In my bonding, Otto only humped during times of confinement – the cementing phases which happened at 2 weeks, then again after another month or so. By that time, their relationship really wasn’t new, and they had been living together for a whole month, but as soon as I put them in a small cage together (because of Hannah’s chasing) Otto tried to hump her again briefly (she was still trying to hump him). I still find it hard to believe that it had anything to do with dominance. His reaction to other rabbits, during some bunny dates, supports me thinking he is totally submissive. And besides those few instances, I’ve never seen him show any other dominant behavior, while Hannah is constantly showing that she is the boss in their relationship (bossing over food, couch time, attention, etc). I just have to believe that he had some other motive, and stress seems to be an obvious one considering the circumstances.

Jersey, great post about grooming – that was exactly what I was getting at. I think in the initial bonding phase it’s a lot about dominance, but in a regular bunny relationship it’s very much mutual and I think it’s mutually beneficial too. Hannah is quite clearly in charge, yet she grooms Otto at least twice every evening (though always cleaning the gunk out of his eyes, nothing else; that’s just her quirk). It doesn’t affect her dominance to help him out and she must enjoy it or receive some bonding benefit from it. I think it’s a great example of social herd behavior and how putting the group above the individual can help everyone – something seen in a lot of social animal societies.

eta: Jersey, that was a great article! I hadn’t seen that one before. It really described what I saw happening during the bonding process with my two – neither were aggressive, and Hannah really wanted a friend, but neither had social skills either.

[Karla]

Posted By Kokaneeandkahlua on 08/19/2010 04:50 PM
I really disagree with humping being dominant.

We are so quick to say that other natural behaviors in animals are play (running, jumping, chasing, chewing) but when it comes to something -dare I say-sexual…we have to label it as -abnormal…’dominance’. Why isn’t it play?

Read here: THe american veterinary behaviorist association position on dominance. Now this pertains to dogs, but learning theory and behavior apply to ALL animals. Secondly-this association is for veterinary behaviorists-that means these people are both masters or phD in behavior AND veterinarians…they know their stuff

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ogegp4bEegMJ:www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%2520statement.pdf+american+veterinary+behaviorist+position+on+dominance&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShj3K7aVOUo6tatJdN5gKnt7_X75WpH5rwaTVzj4piFRK101LTpppV4CNSzS-_k4kqJbyRn-5ZD6WbT3QfEHTfuO2fvQ7-U7kA6bK8FZ0l-tnnaasXZuUYBz_97It2zyPgw13Xz&sig=AHIEtbS2jrSQCDYvCxm19ABVM4rql5UGBw

This document you posted supports fully the most commonly applied belief where I live in regard to dominance – in dogs. The previous studies on wolves that are the basis of the dominance theory have not been on wild wolves, but on wolves in confinement living with a high level of stress, that has made them more aggressive and not showing true canine nature – like with hutch bunnies, I suppose. And it’s the basis of that, which made me think, because I do believe that the dismissal of the dominance theory can be applied to rabbits as well.  So, if humping in a bonding situation is caused by stress, then perhaps it will give us some insight on how to approach the bonding sessions?

I think perhaps I will go for the  notion, that grooming between bunnies not yet fully bonded is a way of showing friendliness towards the other…should that be the case, wouldn’t you think that it would actually be the “dominant” and calm bunny that would groom, as (s)he is the one who has the least to lose by offering friendship?

Elrohen, could you specify how you see dominant behaviour in Hannah more precisely, because I have always believed Molly to be the leader, but perhaps in reality she is not?

[jerseygirl]

So, if humping in a bonding situation is caused by stress, then perhaps it will give us some insight on how to approach the bonding sessions?

I don’t think you can take stress out of bonding. Like we can’t take it out of life. It’s been well over a year since I bonded my pair, the only hands on experience I have, but I sort of look at it now in a simplistic way. Bonding is about providing the opportunity for the rabbit to be around one another and making sure no one gets hurt too much. Other than that, there’s not much we can do. It’s up to the rabbits. We can do things that might prod them along but that’s about it. In regards to humping and mounting, it my view still that it can be either Dominance, Stress, Excitment or Hormonal driven – OR a combo of any of those things.

[Karla]

I was only thinking that I used a technique that I saw in here, where if one bunny humps another during the bonding session, you put the other bunny on top afterwards. I don’t think that would be the right approach if we are dealing with stress.

But guys, all this is making me think even more. What if there is no such thing as hiearchy between bunnies living in a group of just 2-3? What if that is actually too small a group to create that social structure, then what we see in our house bunnies are actually just personalities and nothing more?

[jerseygirl]

True, I think there may be a not very apparent heirachy or even not one at all. Even not a static one. But there’d have to some sort of subtle group dynamics at play surely? Same with humans even if it’s 2 or 3.  The social structure/heirachy type thing does come from studies of wild rabbits as you know. Again, it’s probably varies household to household and bunny to bunny. Even timeframes on when the bunny came to live there. I think Petzy has commented from time to time of the relationship evolving between Deirdra and Neigey. Some of that I think is on Deirdra being female and the biggest and Neigey being a Junior learning his way. Of course this is just speculating!

I think if rabbits could talk and you sat down to interviewed yours individually, they might reveal very different perspectives on the group.

[Karla]

Posted By jerseygirl on 08/20/2010 12:53 AM

True, I think there may be a not very apparent heirachy or even not one at all. Even not a static one. But there’d have to some sort of subtle group dynamics at play surely? Same with humans even if it’s 2 or 3.  The social structure/heirachy type thing does come from studies of wild rabbits as you know. Again, it’s probably varies household to household and bunny to bunny. Even timeframes on when the bunny came to live there. I think Petzy has commented from time to time of the relationship evolving between Deirdra and Neigey. Some of that I think is on Deirdra being female and the biggest and Neigey being a Junior learning his way. Of course this is just speculating!

I think if rabbits could talk and you sat down to interviewed yours individually, they might reveal very different perspectives on the group.

Well, I just need to learn Rabbit then! I will let you know what I find out once I master the language

I am just the type of person who needs academic papers and studies on all things because until then I keep speculating, and I really miss that research in regards to rabbit behaviour. Could someone please start doing some solid research for me with a large group of rabbits, so I know what is going on ?! It would be very much appreciated

[jerseygirl]

Large group of neutered rabbits! I would like to see more done on domestic, fixed rabbits.

I did see something I meant to point you too when you had those people emailing you. On rabbits being solitary or not. It was a study on lab rabbits and they found the ones they gave a companion seemed less depressed, more active and chose to sit by one another even though there was room to be apart in their cages. I’ll PM you if I find it again.

[jerseygirl]

But you know…don’t discount our own position. As people with house rabbits, we’re in a good postion to observe and learn on behaviour. But it is nice when some academic backs up your theories. lol

[Karla]

Posted By jerseygirl on 08/20/2010 02:04 AM
Large group of neutered rabbits! I would like to see more done on domestic, fixed rabbits.

I did see something I meant to point you too when you had those people emailing you. On rabbits being solitary or not. It was a study on lab rabbits and they found the ones they gave a companion seemed less depressed, more active and chose to sit by one another even though there was room to be apart in their cages. I’ll PM you if I find it again.

Oh, yes, please do! That would be highly interesting. Especially that lab rabbits are in fact living a stressful life in small cages and most likely not neutered, which I would expect would result in aggressive behaviour towards other bunnies. Any idea where you came across it?

And by the way, you are absolutely right about our own observations. We are the ones living with these bunnies so closely so we see every little change in their behaviour…

 

 

 

[jerseygirl]

haha…and after I posted that I thought how we are sooo not objective observers. As to that other study I read, I don’t recall where but I’ll try find it in my browsing history.  It would have been just the abstract, not the entire study.

[Karla]

Haha, but is anyone really? I mean, don’t we all have a hidden agenda when we begin our research? As long as people are aware of this and try not to let it influence their observations, I believe we are just as good to make observations. But of course, if I have been studying 300 neutered rabbits, it might be difficult to get my own agenda through if the majority of the rabbits show dominance in grooming and humping

By they way, could it be”the biology of the laboratory rabbit” or “an experimental study of aggression in captive european rabbits”?

[jerseygirl]

No, it was a more specific thing I think pertaining to enrichment and welfare of laboratory rabbits.

[Elrohwen]

Karla, to answer your question, I think Hannah is dominant because I see a lot of controlling and bossy behavior from her. When food is out and Otto is getting it, she’s not afraid to push him out of the way to get first access. If he’s being petted and she’s not, she’s not afraid to shove her face in there and get pets too. She’s also much braver and is the ring leader. Overall, he just stays out of her way while she pushes him around a bit, making me think she is clearly dominant. Otto does whatever she wants without a fuss. She’s also far more alert, and seems to be looking out for their little warren at all times. It seems that she’s in charge of keeping them safe and watching for danger, while Otto just hangs out – just another example of her take-charge behavior.

[Sarita]

I think it’s interesting that it seems to be the female that is mainly the dominant one in the relationship between our altered rabbits.

I think too as far as humping when many people get a baby rabbit and it starts humping there’s the assumption that this rabbit is a male because humping is how rabbits mate and obviously the male has to be on top for that and therein seems to lie the confusion between dominance and mating. Especially when you are dealing with an unaltered rabbit.

I rabbit sit a little pair of rabbits and the female is very dominant as well and bossy. When I first bonded them (and this was an easy bond – the little male was a foster of mine) – Kizmet humped Noah and chased him for a bit and he looked a little dazed and confused but he accepted her as the boss and she was happy then.

I also think maybe Petzy is right too in that it is a dominance thing because whatever the reason for humping is (excitement, stress, etc…) it does seem to be the dominant one of the pair that does the humping.

I have to doubt that there will ever be any scientific study done on this because the only way scientist study things like this is if they get a grant or money to do so.

Seems to me the best studies done are by rabbit owners – that’s how the educators for House Rabbit Society come to their conclusion by just watching and interpreting their rabbits behavior if you read the HRS articles.

[Karla]

But Molly is exactly like Elrohwen describes Hannah. Furthermore, she is the one who thumps when something is wrong, and the first one to come out and check that the danger is gone again. But she has never humped, but she has been humped by both Karl and Freddie…and sometimes she runs off, and other times she just lies there and accepts it.

Maybe I should do a poll – does you female hump your male? I guess that might contribute to the discussion. It would be interesting to see the result.

[Sarita]

Maybe they were humping her to TRY to dominate her…

I have to say in my Dutch pair – neither of them hump – EVER.

I think you may not be able to come to a definitive conclusion about humping. I have to wonder if rabbits in the wild even hump each other for dominance at all – to tell you the truth when I see a wild rabbit, I only see one at a time and for sure they aren’t going to hump in front of me – they are going to run away.

[Elrohwen]

When Otto humped Hannah a few times, I don’t think he was trying to dominate her – if he was, I think I would’ve seen other dominant behavior around food or other resources. Instead, he remained as submissive as ever. I think something else was causing him to start humping during those periods.

It’s interesting that the girls seem to be the leaders of the “warrens” most of the time. In the wild, most animal groups seem to be lead by a female in some way – even if a group of lions has a male to protect them, it’s a lioness who leads the hunt. With horses, it’s a mare who leads the group. I think even wolves are lead mostly by the alpha female, though the male provides protection and has to potentially fight for his role. I guess it goes to show that the ladies are the brains and then men are the brawn

[Sarita]

I suspect Otto decided humping took too much effort and didn’t fit his laid back lifestyle :~)

[Elrohwen]

LOL Sarita, you might be on to something.

[BinkyBunny]

Jack and Vivian groom each other now, so in regards to that I see that now as less of a dominance move and more of just a reciprocal co-existing behavior. As a group prey animal by nature, it might serve a purpose to keep each other healthy (free from ear debris, bugs etc) so that they can help watch out for each other. Just something instinctual.

Vivian is a pretty opinionated dominant bunny, however she does not attempt to hump Jack. Jack is dominant too but seems to trump Vivian a bit.  Observing them, his humping, I feel, is currently a mix of things:  One being  a ”love/mate” habit that never went away even after he was neutered.  (He wasn’t neutered early on and he fathered at least one group of kits– one vet told me that because of that, some mating instincts could be ingrained). When he wants to mate mate, not dominate, he honks first. When he’s honking and attempting to mount, the honk is the only warning and he is much more persistent, and…..if you turned him over, it would be obvious what he’s wanting. (edited to add: I could see where this would fall into Kk’s suggestion of Playing as Jack does this every evening — a sort of evening ritual, and Vivian sometimes seems to egg it on and then run and he’ll run after.  When she tires or doesn’t feeling like being pursued, she heads to her Vivian hideout in the foyer where Jack won’t go.      This is different than the other times he tries to mount.

The other times I see him trying to mount her is when she doesn’t move fast enough out of the way for something–like when he asks her to move from food so he can have first serve OR if he wants something she has. He will also mount her if he wants to lay in an area she is at and doesn’t move. What I have observed him do differently is he warns her first by putting his head sideways on her neck, and if she doesn’t move, he then attempts to mount. She always moves over to give him more room, or  leaves and will either wait until his done or come back to another area on the food mat to eat.. Most of the time when she scoots over Jack allows her to stay.  I also have observed him being much more accepting of her sharing the Nom Nom Station this year. 

He used to go into a more aggressive mount move. No warning, just tried to mount when she would refuse to groom him, but he’s gotten much more easy-going  about that.   I think he gets enough grooming from her now to  be satisfied that even if she refuses, he doesn’t push it, many times he’ll groom her instead and then ask for it return— and now they do reciprocate much more.   So I think he’s fine with that. 

He used to mount her when I would pet her, but I learned that if I quickly pet them both, he will leave her alone.

When he is stressed, he also mounts much more.  But I also see that as a possible dominance move because it makes sense that if he’s feeling stressed and unsure about things, he may console himself by securing his “position”.

He used to mount like a crazy boy when he was dealing with the bladder stone and the vet said it could have been do to an uncomfortable feeling of always having to go.   Not sure. 

When Vivian and Jack  were bonding, he was a madman and I attribute it to all three things—- Dominance/stress & urge to mate (even though he’s neutered), and his bladder stone issue.

So I definitely don’t think mounting has one meaning and one purpose. I will try to get video of what I perceive to be the differences of Jack’s mounting. 

 

[Sarita]

Interesting BB. Jack probably is a good study since he seems to mount quite a bit.

[BinkyBunny]

yes, Jack attempts to mount pretty much every single day for one reason or another. So it should be easy to film him. He’s just no longer fanatical about it like he was during bonding and while he had the bladder stone —Thank goodness!.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Hmmm…I don’t see dogs being at all like rabbits – didn’t read the link though cause I’m too lazy to cut and paste. I love my vet and she’s great at medicine but I don’t think she knows as much about rabbit behavior as I do.

Dogs aren’t like rabbits, that’s not what I’m saying; I’m saying learning theory applies to all animals. And that veterinary behaviorists are VETS and masters or PhDs in Behavior. No your vet may not know much at all about behavior, but if she had an additonal 7-12 years in behavior like veterinary behavirists do-she might. Sorry-I hope that’s clearer what I was saying.

 

Thanks K&K! You get access to some interesting stuff. I shall be reading this later.

Thanks girlie I’m doing some training with many different species now so I’m reading the literature big time

 

This document you posted supports fully the most commonly applied belief where I live in regard to dominance – in dogs. The previous studies on wolves that are the basis of the dominance theory have not been on wild wolves, but on wolves in confinement living with a high level of stress, that has made them more aggressive and not showing true canine nature – like with hutch bunnies, I suppose. And it’s the basis of that, which made me think, because I do believe that the dismissal of the dominance theory can be applied to rabbits as well. So, if humping in a bonding situation is caused by stress, then perhaps it will give us some insight on how to approach the bonding sessions?

It’s a great article I think and I really respect the association.

I guess my main point is why do we have to call humping dominance? It’s behavior just like chewing and playing and running. It doesn’t mean it’s abnormal. And Dominance Theory  is severely outdated AND discredited.

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