HELP HELP HELP!!! PLEASE!!!

[JodiM]

Wow! Great I haven’t been on in a while and I’m loving the new changes! Esp… the bonding Forum!!

Okay so not sure if any of you remember me but I have Flopsy and Carmel.  Male and Female and  was trying the bond them.

Well, I thought everything was good until last night.  I was at work so I’m just reporting back what my hubby told me happened.  But he said, Flopsy was making a horrible Screaming noise.  They were both in their NIC pen.  He ran over and he said that Carmel, my male had her cornered and was biting her and growling at her.  He had pulled out large tuffs of hair.  He grabbed Carmel and put him out of the cage and locked Flopsy in so they were seperated and then waited for me to get home.  I have no idea why this happened or how to proceed from here. They have been living togethere now for probably about 3 maybe 4 weeks and then this.  I’ve kinda been punishing Carmel and not allowing him free run.  But I noticed this evening that Flopsy is hanging around the cage like she wants him to come out.

Also I  have been noticing the last few weeks that Flopsy is going bald in this one spot on her back. I’m assuming this is the spot where he bites to mount her.  He didn’t do it hardly at all that I knew of but obviously I’m wrong and he’s just not doing it when I’m around.

 

HELP!!

oh, also tomorrwo I’m calling the lady that I got the rabbits from and I’m going to ask her for any help or suggestions.  She owns a rabbit  rescue and has bonded buns before and told  me to call if I needed help.   I NEED HELP!!!

[JodiM]

https://binkybunny.com/Default.aspx?tabid=54&forumid=2&postid=46001&view=topic

 

https://binkybunny.com/Default.aspx?tabid=54&forumid=2&postid=48087&view=topic

[Beka27]

yes i remember you Jodi! welcome back! i don’t really know what to tell you tho… have you put them back together yet? when they are together now is everything okay, or are they aggressive again?

[BinkyBunny]

Oh, I’m so sorry. How traumatic! Well, sometimes there are set backs. Sometimes it can be that they got into a tiff about something, or one decides to challenge the dominant/passive roles. Also if Carmel has a habit of mounting and not letting her be she can decide to fight back and then that’s when something like this can happen. I would supervise putting them together again, and if fighting happens right away, then you may need to start at square one. If they seem to be getting along, then I would just do supervised time together until you can see for sure that things are back to normal.

How have the last three when they were getting along going? I mean were they snuggling, or more just co-existing, or was there still mounting going on?

[Scarlet_Rose]

Hi Jodi, we’re glad to have you back!  Aside from totally agreeing with Binky Bunny, I thought I would just chime in to settle your nerves a little.  This happens a lot believe it or not and I even have a pair that has an annual marriage spat just like this one and they’ve been together for over 5 years.  I’ll pass along the advice I was given by my local HRS manager, Nancy. 

Step 1: Separate them, but also so they can still see each other but not kill each other i.e. nip noses through bars etc. 

Step 2: Check for injuries and take to vet for care.

Step 3:  If wounded, let heal before any introductions.

Step 4:  Switch them between cages every night.  This helps deter them from claiming too much ownership of one cage and hence, fighting/territorialism.

Step 5: Supervised bonding sessions in a neutral area. i.e. dating.

Step 6:  I think you know how the rest goes but do bonding sessions and see how things go between them before you decide when they are ready to live together again.

I would advise against letting one or the other out in the common area, in fact I would move the area where they get to roam and where the other does not get to see.  Otherwise what you get is the rabbit who is out will antagonize the one who is in and territorial wars also happen this way and this is something you definately want to avoid especially since you are trying to calm and bond them, not instigate fights or promote territorialism.  Anyhoo, that’s my just my input and remember to relax and breathe, it will be O.K.!

[JodiM]

I never saw any mounting.  they seemed happy, not overly snuggly but I would say more co-existing.  they really are nocturnal and were quie and t layed back during the day, at night though completely different story.  When I’m sleeping I can usually hear them in the living room above our bedroom doing bunny laps.  Maybe it was just Flopsy trying to get away from Carmel. ?? Not really sure, as I was usually half asleep listening.

So the overall consenses is to try again but under observation.

[Scarlet_Rose]

Yes, try again, but under observation.

[JodiM]

Are rabbits similar to dogs in the sense that dogs can have a scrap where their appears to be alot of biting and growling. But when taking a closer look there is no blood. It’s a dominance thing with them and I wonder if the same is of rabbits where it was a dominance thing, as there was no blood or broken skin.

[MooBunnay]

Being a newlywed myself, I’m thinking Carmel probably went and bought a flatscreen TV without consulting Flopsy first…..

But seriously though, it does sound like a dominance issue came up. I think the best bet would be to do some more supervised dates (marriage counseling!) and let them work out any “issues” that they still have. I’d recommend continuing to let them see each other through the cage bars, perhaps it will make them realize they miss each other!

[JodiM]

Well thanks soo much everyone for all your help. So far I have kept them seperated. I do short bonding sessions again, but it seems that the less Carmel is with Flopsy the more he wants to mount her. poor Flops keep grooming him but sometimes to no avail. That’s when I just seperate them again. I’ll see how things continue and will keep you updated.

I also just wanted to add that with the nice weather here lately, ie: Summertime in Ontario, it’s been hard to sit down at the computer and not be outside! But… I still LOVE you guys!!!

[BinkyBunny]

so what happens when Carmel mounts her? What you can do is pet her and comfort her while he is mounting her, and then gently push him off after about 10 seconds, and let him mount again about a minute later. What does she do while he is mounting her?

[JodiM]

Hey Binky, to answer your questions…  Carmel was nipping her back when mounting . Flopsy would just accept it and sit there.  (Now that is all in the past.)

But now… since that day.. I have some serious aggression issues on my hands.  They were out together this morning in a non neutral area,  the kitchen/ living room which is where they have always been. (that was probably my first mistake) I’ve been alternating them in the cage. Now I’m just going to give the cage/ kitchen area to Carmel(as he has poo accidents too often) The Kitchen is blocked off and Flopsy is going to have the living room.  so… this morning they were together and hair flew!! Carmel is persisting to chase her and mount her and this time she’s not putting up with it.  She was batting him and biting.  Biting I learnt first hand as I got my UNGLOVED hand in the way! DUH!  So Flopsy did bite me, but didn’t break the skin.  I tried petting during the process. I held Carmel and basic kept holding him back. Flopsy would sit near him as long as I had a hand on him.  I am just soo confused I’m doing basic bonding with them after 3 weeks of them being fine together, to some degree or what I would have considered fine, I mean no fighting. 

Now it’s worse then when they first met.?? I wish I new what happened!  I think Flopsy is filing for divorce shortly.  Is that possible that they tried it and decided they just don’t like one another that much?

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I’d say anything is possible with rabbits but why don’t you go back to basics? Do some ‘on the drier’ or ‘in the car’ bonding…is that possible?

[Scarlet_Rose]

I was just going to make the same suggestion as K & K, try some stress bonding or that neat L-shaped x-pen set up Markus shared with us here: https://binkybunny.com/Default.aspx?tabid=54&forumid=11&postid=31999&view=topic

[BinkyBunny]

I triple ditto – Going back to the basic and start over with bonding may be the way to go. So sorry you have to go through that. I wish there were an easier way, but since they really seem to go at it, it looks like that may be best.

Be sure to check their skin for bites as they can turn into abscesses sometimes.

[kimberleyanddarren]

Yes i agree i think the best thing would be to start again, switching pens is always a good idea too! Sorry you had to go through that it must have been scary! I have heard my bun scream once when he got a lead rapped round him and i never want to hear that noise again in my life it was terrible!

[JodiM]

Well… here is what I have been through the last couple of days.

I tried the dryer and the second I put themi n the basket together they attacked each other. The second time, they just sat there.  I put them outside in cages and set them up close so they could see each other, but not bite.  Things seemed good.

I tried taking them outside in my gazebo – neutral territory.  They attacked each other again.

Flopsy has a bite on each of her ears.  Carmel has a bite on his ear.  Flopsy’s eye is  also wheeping today.  I never saw anything happen to her eye, but that’s not to say that it didn’t.  I tried letting them work it out. Clapping and  yelling when they attacked one another but they are out for blood.

I got bit in the process.  I have a whole in my finger nail and on the other side of my finger where Carmels top and bottom teeth went in while I was trying to break up a fight.  I’m at the end of my rope and I’m thinking that it’s time to seperate them for good.  Putting one upstairs and the other downstairs where they  will never see each other again.

 

[Beka27]

maybe take a break. have them where they are near each other but cannot interact thru the bars… and take a month or two off. you can always try again if you want to at a later time, but right now you just sound frustrated… not that i blame you.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

I’d ditto the break idea…I think it would be hard for me to get along with anyone when I still had a booboo from them BITING me.

[BinkyBunny]

OUCH! That nail bite just sounds aweful! I triple ditto – time to take a break. They may be reacting the stress. Though most rabbits do well with stress bonding, there are a few that will fight right through it and sometimes it will even make it worse. So for now, step away from the bonding, let them chill, you relax for a couple of weeks, and then start slow. Do baby steps – like start changing litterboxes around, try the stunt doubles, switch cages – all in preperation for them getting to eventually see each other.

Let us know when you start again, so we can help you step by step.

[JodiM]

Well, I am definetly all for taking a break.  I am still just soo baffled that this all even happened. But I’ll try the break and then start again in a months time and see how things go then.  Thanks for all the support everyone while I’m going through this whole ordeal. 

I was just thinking.  this is what I get for having it soo easy in the beginning. LOL, now that I look back I had it WAY easy!!

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