Hammer and Rose’s bonding sessions!

[BunnyLiz]

It went good! They cuddled (forced but still good) in the basket on the  warm and noisey dryer. They hated being put in carriers to be brought downstarirs but I cant carry Rose yet and Hammer gets mad when I do, but he allows it.  They looked really scared and out of their element, but no aggressive behavior. They sat still while i petted down their heads, only moving their heads ever so slowly every now and then to look around. It was about 8 minutes.  I had my water and strainer ready and on hand of course! But they were happy to get a raisin and get back to their pens and eat their salads. It went well for their first time! Im still not sure who will be dominate though.. im sure they will let me know soon though!

Some pictures from the session, dont you just love the nose picture!

Edit: Wow she doesnt look overweight in the pictures! Maybe im seeing things lol

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[BunnyMuffin]

Awww! Those are adorable pictures – I do love the nose one! Congrats on the first session going well! My buns never got to experience the joy of a dryer date because I refused to pay 75 cents just to jostle them! (I live in an apartment building with common pay laundry.) Probably if you move them to a bathtub or something where they have more space to maneuver they’ll start letting you know who wants to be “top bun,” so to speak. 🙂

But congrats on the first session going well – especially after their little tiff earlier! Keep us posted!

[BunnyLiz]

Arent they so cute! I wouldnt do that at an apartment either, id be too afraid they would hop away and not being in your home would scare me lol.My plans are to do a few more nights of the dryer and move to the tub then. Im hoping that will be by Friday, but we’ll see how they do until then

[Beka27]

maybe today after the dryer move to the tub. the pre-stressing and then the unfamiliar bathtub territory might help…

does she have eyelashes? she’s such a georgeous bunny!

[BunnyLiz]

lol yea I think she does actually have eyelashes lol. Do you mean right after the dyer Beka? Or the day after as in tomorrow and skip the dryer? I think you mean after the dryer today but just checking

[BunnyLiz]

I guess ill keep this in the same thread. If it should be in a new one sorry and feel free to move it.

Ok well we did it again tonight, with dryer then the tub. Same reaction on the dryer as before, still as statues lol. When they went to the tub they were usually layin next to each other. They had a few stand offs with grooming demands from both Hammer and Rose. One of them resulting in a nip to Hammers side which he hardly seemed to notice. I ended it soon after that, but did some forced cuddling with lots of pets first so hopefully no bad attitudes.  They switched pens when they went back and it looks like they are taking it much better then before! They are eating salads together in front of each other,  between the bars of course. And good news! Rose ate her salad over her pellets today, Yay! And one question.. should I be allowing mounting? I forgot to ask and Hammer was twiching his tail earlier so it reminded me. Plus pictures of course!

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[BunnyMuffin]

That’s great! My understanding on the mounting topic is that as long as the under-bunny isn’t distressed by it, to allow it for short periods at a time to help them sort out the dominance issue. With Noelle and Wally, I would let Wally mount Noelle for a bit (maybe 5 -10 seconds at most, depending on Noelle’s reaction), but then tell him that’s enough and brush him aside before Noelle got upset about it – which is important so the under-bunny doesn’t turn around and bite top-bun. Also – only allow the mounting if it’s from behind – not on the face because so that the sensitive parts don’t get bitten by a disgruntled under-bunny. I would also try to soothe Noelle and tell her it was okay and rub her nose while Wally was mounting for the short periods, and I would make him wait a bit between mounting so that it wasn’t consecutive to give Noelle a breather. If the more experienced folk have differing opinions I’m sure they’ll correct me – but this is what worked for me!

[MarkBun]

It looks like it’s going good. Yes, you need to allow mounting to take place. If it becomes an all out fight though, you need to break it up. It’s kinda hard to describe the difference between sorting out dominance and all out fighting but you know it when you see it.

[BunnyLiz]

Got ya! Thanks guys! This would not be possible without this forum lol

[Beka27]

keep all your updates in the same thread. that’ll make it easier for us to go back and reread or if someone comes late to the thread, it’s all in one place. i’ll change your title to “Hammer and Rose’s bonding sessions” so it’s not just the first one.

bunnymuffin hit the nail on the head as far as the mounting. short humping is okay as long as the humpee does not get mad, only humping the “right way” is allowed, and pet the humpee on the forehead to keep him or her calm.

it sounds like it’s going well. today i’d suggest you try going right to the bathtub. you can always go back to dryer time as a last resort, but for now see how they react together in neutral space with no stressing beforehand. you didn’t say how long the bathtub lasted… i’d aim for at least 20 minutes at this point, longer if they are getting along.

the pics are great! i can’t get over her pretty eyelashes!

[BunnyLiz]

The last bathtub was maybe a little over 10 min. plus the 10 on the dryer. They are doing EXCELLENT switching cages! Rose only had 4 stray poops and no grunts or thumping this time, they seem content. Ill go straight to the tub tonight. Is there something to put on their foreheads to encourage grooming? I thought i heard of that, or am i way off?

[BunnyLiz]

#3 didnt go as well. Rose nipped three times, twice in a chase sort of thing that i couldnt save my poor Hammie from fast enough. Another to Hammers face for sneezing I believe. Hammer really just doesnt get it lol, he is so confusing. The one nip was fine, but the two terrified him and he froze in my arms cuddling and tried to hold on to me when i went to put him back in the tub lol. He wants to be groomed but wont mount, but he will nudge Rose like he is almost gonna kiss her. Rose did try to nip another time when Hammer tried to jump over her, but she was blocking off the majority of the tub in Hammers defense lol. He is fine in his switched pen, but today Rose is trying to start something in hers with grunting, zooming and a little boxing. Im proud of Hammer for not returning the ugly behavior : ) Can they have more then one drop of rescue remedy? Or at least an extra for Rose because of her size? Maybe one dose 2-3 hours before and then one a few minutes before?

[BunnyMuffin]

I think I’ve read in other threads of people rubbing mashed bananas on the bunny foreheads to encourage grooming – so you aren’t way off! I tried to trick Noelle into eating a raisin off Wally’s head, but she didn’t fall for it (I didn’t have any banana…).

Does it matter who you trick into doing the grooming? Like, should you only have the would-be submissive one licking banana off the one that wants to be dominant to avoid confusing them?

I don’t know anything about rescue remedy, so hopefully someone else can help you out there! Seems kinda funny – drug up the bunnies to trick them into liking each other. 😛 hehe. I know that’s not quite how it works, but it amuses me nonetheless.

[BunnyLiz]

Thanks bunnymuffin ill give banana a try. But id like to know if it helps as well. Hopefully a someone more in the know will help us out with that. And the rescue remedy thing.

[Beka27]

you might be able to give two drops of rescue remedy. have you noticed that it’s making a big difference? maybe instead of giving it orally, rub it behind their ears?

as far as the banana, i have heard that. i don’t know if you’d want to do it this early, or maybe wait until they’re getting along for the most part and then do it to stimulate grooming. sometimes they can get along, eat together, but they have a grooming stand-off. you could even drop a few drops of plain water on their forehead, they’ll stop to groom and might groom the other bun if they are right next to each other. that’s what mine did. Max would groom his ears, Mead would be presenting underneath him. he would stop grooming himself and then groom her head for a moment, kind of like, “well since you’re here… lick lick lick…”

really tho, grooming is not the most important thing.  i’ve seen mine groom each other and then a moment later they’re chasing and biting.  what you’re looking for is calmness.  they need to be able to hop by the other with no lunges, share food and a litterbox, lay down together, and then eventually return to bunny territory with no aggression.

[BunnyLiz]

Okay. And yea i have really noticed a difference in Hammer after he gets a dose, much calmer. But Rose I cant be certain of yet.

[MarkBun]

Go back to doing the 10 min ride on the dryer then extend the time in the tub by a couple of minutes each time.

You can use banana on the forehead or even just water. When buns see some bun’s fur out of order, they try to fix it for them.

[BunnyLiz]

I forgot to mention.. I found a boo-boo on Rose’s forehead . I assume from their first fight. Its kinda like a scab now and ive been putting their antibiotic cream on it a few times a day. Anything else I should be doing for it?
YAY!!! They just flopped at the same time and position in their pens side by side

[Beka27]

just keep an eye on that that it does not start to look infected. a few boo-boos are a somewhat normal part of the process… you’ll get there. over the weekend, as time allows, you might try to do two sessions a day… separate them by several hours.

[BunnyLiz]

Im actually not home this weekend so bonding is on hold. Im at my dads, its his weekend. I convinced my mom to keep switching their pens but she wouldnt do any bonding. : ( Just salads, pellets, and hay is always alot for her to accopmlish, the switching makes her nervous for some reason but she is doing fine so far. She has been giving me updates. Ill be home late tonight so ill be able to try bonding again tonight.

[BunnyLiz]

I gotta type this agian!! Grrr.. My mistake.. wrong button. Any ways.. cendensed version of what i just typed lol

#4- same old same old. But Rose gave Hammer a little token groom! One lick on the forehead.. Hammer wasnt satisfied but its progress. Two nips from Rose to Hammer. But he doesnt seem to even notice.  They get watercress and carrot tops, i saved it for the first groom night lol. Full update tomorrow, its late lol.

Pic 1- Hammer still trying to be top bun! He almost never picks his head up while bonding.

Pic 2- Best buds!! Lol yea right!! Dont let them fool you.

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[BunMumTiff]

you seem to be doing a wonderful job and int he end it will be soo worth it to have two buns living together under one roof YAY for you and YAY for mommy for helpin you out too around here I have to ask hubby a millon times to take care f bunny if i am away as he thinks it is alot of extra attention I give to them but deep down I know he loves them

[Beka27]

Mead was just like Hammer. the instant she saw Max it was chin on the ground… GROOM ME!!!!! he’d back away and she’d do an army crawl to him, chin still on the ground. most of the bonding pics i have of them she has her head tucked underneath him.

[BunnyLiz]

#5- nothing new, I dont really remember a lot of it. It was so incredibly late lol, Ive been getting about five hours of sleep with two play times, bonding and loaded homework. They better be getting along in two months, ill be running out by then lol. This is harder to juggle then I thought it would be! But I was at my Dads this weekend, and those weeks are always harder because I cant catch up on laundry, homework, studying etc. on those weekends. They have only been getting two hours a piece of play time, i feel bad but its the best I can do I guess.

#6- They ate hay!!! I gave them some alfalfa and Rose munched. Hammer started to munch on willow and Rose disapproved and showed so with a small nip. Then Hammer munched on alfalfa too. Hammer moved real quick and Rose of course nipped. Then they had forced cuddles and hammer munched on hay again, next to Rose. She looked alert and concerned but was good and acted like a lady! So the hay is progress!!

[MooBunnay]

That is great that they are eating together! Nipping in the beginning unfortunately is very common, but it sounds like they are making a lot of progress. I have a girl that is a nipper as well, but it is a very good sign that the nipping does not turn into a big fight. I have done the banana on the forehead before but it never worked for me – my bunnies are too stubborn

[BunnyLiz]

#7- They ate a tiny bit of hay, a few nips again. I thought Rose was going to groom Hammer, but then she nipped of course. Ive been putting a drop of water on their foreheads to mess up their fur.. but neither want to fix the others. Rose groomed herself quite a bit, they both looked comfortable and Hammer then groomed himself for a second. Hammer did stretch out some, with his head to the floor of course. Rose stretched, leaning forward, and yawned. It was so cute and i take it as “im comfy”. They are up to 20 min. sessions, that sometimes run a little late.

Question, Hammer has been making a tooth purr noise when he is in the tub and im petting him. Its more of a chatter, like when we are cold. But today Rose did the purr thing back, after he did it, but a little louder. Is it a tooth purr or a aggressive noise? Or maybe a nervous/scared noise? They were both facing each other, with acceptable ears and body language, in the same half of the tub.

[Beka27]

that’s sounding pretty good. has Rose ever licked Hammer? i wonder b/c some buns don’t know how to groom nicely. they nip thinking it’s a groom, but it’s not. is she actually lunging at him when she nips, or just reaching over and CHOMP? where are you planning on moving them for out of tub neutral space? i think they seem pretty good in the tub so you’re probably about ready for the next step very soon.

[Colin]

Digby and Yoshi will have little tooth-pur “conversations” when they’re lying next to each other. To me, it seems like the louder chatter is a request for grooming, and the continuous softer chatter is an “ahh, that’s the spot” kind of noise.

[BunnyLiz]

Beka- Rose did lick Hammer once, just a tiny one time groom. Hammer groomed Rose on their date but wont now! And yes she does actually lunge, at Hammer and even me sometimes. Like last night I was bored watching them just sit there so I guess i was day dreaming and started to play and arrange the hay in the tub, just absent minded ya know? And i guess she thought I was teasing her, she lunged and nipped my hand, not too bad though. She has done it before. I think she just gets really nervous. She seems comfortable enough, but if Hammer stands up and looks around or shacks his head or something, she is likely to lunge and nip. Ive been letting them go, Rose nips and then she retreats, then i offer pets to both. Ive blocked some mean ones, just judging off of ears and body lingo how serious it would be. Am I on track with that? Or should I be blocking all lunges and nips? They are moving to the bathroom next I think. Its not very big.. will it still work? Its pretty cramped so im not sure if it will be much different then the tub lol. You think they are ready to move on soon?!!!? Wow! I guess you see it as they arent fighting to bad and i see Rose being a meanie to my baby Hammie lol. I guess they are doing good.. But Rose gets weird when hammer eats hay.. thats when the fast pets and soothing words come into play.

Beecg- that makes sense.. maybe they are asking to be groomed. Would explain why Hammer does it more.

[Beka27]

have you considered using a squirt bottle set on stream? you spray right before she nips. and you do it everytime. she’ll eventually relate lunging with getting sprayed and should stop that behavior. Meadow was a lot like that with Max. she would sit and if he hopped by, she’d lunge and nip his side. it got so that he was so frightened of her, our bonding took a bad turn. i could not even get Max to sit next to her without holding him there.

[BunnyLiz]

#8- Nothing new. They ate hay and ignored each other. Rose lunged twice, but i squirted with the bottle and no nips, yay! I didnt think of that before because the bottle does not phase Hammer lol. Hammer went towards her, which scared her.. lunge. Then Hammer reached for hay.. lunge. The date was 40 min. but must was them on opposite sides of the tub ignoring each other, being petted. They didnt take matters into their own paws.. so I moved them together for forced cuddles. Hammer put his head up kinda on Roses… what was that? I was so mad i forgot my camera because you guys could have probably helped me figure that out. He kinda nosed her cheek area, looked ready to groom but didnt. Forced cuddles for a little over 5 min. and then the date was over. Seems like they just sit there the whole time. Hammer was actually afraid today though for forced cuddles at first. You could tell, he pushed away from her but I made him stay and tried to keep him calm. By the end of cuddles it seemed like he didnt want to leave though.. so confusing!!

[Beka27]

yes, he’s getting afraid b/c he is getting nipped when he goes by her. keep up with a spray ONLY when she lunges. i’ll bet you can break that habit pretty easily. can you move into the bathroom for your next session?

[BunnyLiz]

Okay Beka.. ill trust you lol. Ill try the bathroom tonight. Im nervous about that, but they can always go back to the tub next time if its bad. And of course they will never be fully bonded unless I take the risk of a next step right! The water bottle should help, at least it did last night. I still think Rose is just scared, she is still scared of me so Im sure Hammer isnt exactly comforting her. Ill pull my mom in for the date tonight as well, she is scared of Rose and wants to bale out lol. But she can deal im sure and stand on the opposite side of the room, in case a fight breaks out there and I cant get there soon enough. Wish us luck!!!!

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Sounds like it’s going good.

Rupert was a crazy lunger, he’d sit there sit there…then wham fast lunge and nip!! He’s very sensitive to voice tone and noises so we stopped the spray and just told him ‘gentle gentle kisses’ etc. and when he lunged very loudly ‘NO Rupert BAD” and it actually completely stopped his crazy lounging.

Those are some super cute pictures of them together!!

[BunnyLiz]

#9- they moved to the bathroom! just the usual, some lunges from Rose but no nips thanks to the water bottle. I was proud of her at one point, when Hammer hopped right past her, in her face, and Rose didnt do anything but widen her eyes and put down her ears! No lunge, yay!  Then she threw a fit because I sprayed her for lunging later.  She thumped and thumped, dug all the hay out of a bowl, throw the bowl, and then threw it at me lol. Hammer hopped over and hid in my lap lol. Some pictures and her fit..

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[Beka27]

that sounds like it went great! and how cute!!! i’m sure it’ll work but if for some reason it doesn’t (wink wink), you can drive Rose up to my house and i will take that lil beauty queen off your hands… lol! i’ll bet your mom LOVED the hay on the bathroom rug too!

[BunnyLiz]

Lol no way Beka! But nice try lol. And my mom just absolutely adored the hay on the rug! lol yea right. She didnt really think it was funny (i couldnt stop laughing) “Mom, thats part of the territory with bunnies, they have personalities.” Rose does it all the time to her pellet and salad bowl when its empty, which is 5 minutes after she gets it lol. Digs and throws them. Ive seen her dig in her water bowl too. I think its annoying (because I have to get up 20 minutes earlier so I can take her bowls after her breakfast before I leave, on top of the other 20 earlier to tidy her messy cage), but when I see it I just have to laugh.

[Alicia Conklin]

LOL that was my first thought when seeing the rug covered in hay!  LOL 

I’m glad to see they’re making some progress  

Tucker does the same thing btw..when she’s done with something she chucks it.  And she’s very particular about where she wants her stuff too.  Drue you could put it wherever and he’d just adapt like “oh my food bowl is here today?  Ok I eat here..”  Tucker is the opposite.  She will go over to the bowl and throw it if it’s not where she likes it.  I’ve learned the hard way not to put ceramic bowls in her condo!  Their bowls were dirty so I grabbed two dessert plates from our cabinet.   I put their greens up on her top shelf because that’s where she was.  So silly me..I thought I was doing her a favor and giving her “breakfast in bed”..well she chucked the plate right off the edge and it hit her water crock and broke right in half…ugh.  And then she gave me the stink eye..Mike luckily was in a good mood so he just said “the Queen has spoken!”.  I was waiting for him to be mad that i put the nice plate in with the bunnies again…

[Beka27]

Tucker… you have 3 little kids, don’t tell me there are no cheapy plastic plates in your house! lol!

[Alicia Conklin]

There are and the bunnies have their own plates from that collection.  But we have 8 of those plates.  Two for each kid and then one for each bunny.  I hadn’t done dishes yet from  the night before and the second for each kid was being used for breakfast…bunnies hadn’t finished their veggies the day before and so there was dried yuckies on their plates. It was a series of very unfortunate events! LOL

I actually do think I’m going to go buy more of those though because those plates are awesome for bunnies and children alike! LOL  Tucker likes them too because they have a liitle lip on them and she can use them for frisbees when she’s done with them! 

[Beka27]

yes, i’ve found that you need at least 5 per child… i also save plastic sherbet containers and cool whip containers. they are perfect for bunnies in a pinch…

[BunnyLiz]

^^ lol. No date last night, had a small family emergency that turned out to be a false alarm, so no worries. But tonight ill be able to, ill try a longer session too.

[Beka27]

oh no, i hope everything is alright Liz!

[BunnyLiz]

Yea i think it is. We are still waiting for some test and results. Heart stuff, but he is released already and just waiting for phone calls and the like

[BunnyLiz]

#10- Hammer groomed Rose!!!! HAMMER GROOMED ROSE!!!!! Yay!! One lunge and nip at first from Rose, they were to close to stop her with a squirt, so she got wet as she made contact.  She stayed still, in bun loaf.  While Hammer hopped about, again in front of her face with no nips.  Then I put them together for cuddles and TA-DA!! Hammer groomed!! The first time I didnt get my camera soon enough, i was just so happy it didnt fully register lol. Later the second time I snapped a few pictures.  You might not be able to tell, but he is grooming in all but the last.  Awesome! I ended it after he stopped grooming for a minute or two. Figured that was a very positive note to end on…… YAY!!! I just cant get over it lol.  Im so happy and relieved that this looks hopeful!

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[BunnyMuffin]

Yay! Good Hammer! That’s great news! The motion in the pictures really conveys your excitement at the event! 🙂 They’re definitely making good progress.

[BunnyLiz]

They binkied together!!! This morning Hammer started to wildly binkie in his cage, blindly jumping and zooming around and on and off his shelf. Then Rose joined in!! They are happy together, yay! They arent in love yet, but it sure looked like it for a few minutes this morning. It was so cute! Best thing to see ever, my babies sharing their happiness!! lol

[MarkBun]

Well now that Hammer has ‘aquiesed’ and given rose some grooms, things willprobably go a lot easier. But don’t be disappointed if some nip wars happen again. It is just part of the buns.

[Beka27]

awesome news! i remember the first time Meadow groomed Max, i thought i had died and gone to heaven. and Mead was the one doing all the nipping before, so it was extra special! (now they always have tongues all over the place… lol.)

[BunnyLiz]

And we’re back! Time to revive this long lost thread huh?

I did almost stop bonding, because i couldnt keep up with school, family obligations, give both bunnies enough out time and everything else thats been going on. I had short sessions every few days when i found time, in hopes that they would not fall back and have to start all over. They did regress a bit i think though. Nothing that i can pin point changed, just that it seemed more tense, ear lingo and such. Their were some lunges and nips from Rose, no grooms from Hammer. Which was very sad, since on their last regular session Hammer did groom. But im back on track now! Everything is almost done and under control (still have college applications and scholarships, they suck, grr!) So their sessions should be picking back up and be regular again.

That being said, they just had a session. And guess what! Hammer groomed Rose!! WooHoo! Hammer was oddly overly active today and was jumping and running in the bathroom. Rose looked upset by that, so i wouldnt let him zoom by rose. Rose did move suddenly a few times like she was going to lunge but kept her cool and didnt, nor did she grunt or nip. The only nips were to me lol, when i would repeatedly stop Hammer from jumping or running too quickly by Rose. After maybe 20 minutes I put them side by side and at first they just loafed. Then Hammer got curious and was sniffing around, moved to her rear to investigate, Rose did her sudden movement thing but didnt move anything but her head, no grunts or nips. Then i put Hammer back and he sniffed her ears, which apparently smelled amazing because then he was grooming them and then her back and face. Yay! Only lasted for maybe 30 seconds before he got bored and hopped away though. Ended after that. Rose was thumping when I toke Hammer out and back to his cage, maybe she does really like him and wanted him back lol.

[Beka27]

oh good! i’m glad you’re still working on it. bonding is very time-consuming, isn’t it? i did hour-long sessions for 3 weeks straight with Max and Mead and it does take time and patience. i could not even watch tv or read a book b/c i had to give them my undivided attention… but it’s so worth it for the outcome of happily bonded buns! keep at it, as much as you can.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

Sounds like it was going extremely well!! Grooming is an awesome sign Beka’s right, sometimes it’s hard to not get frustrated but it’s sooooo worth it once they are bonded

[BunnyLiz]

They did good last night again.  No nips, a few of Rose’s half lunges.  Rose had a lot of tooth purrs when i was petting her though, i think she may be starting to enjoy these sessions.  Im less on edge, starting to calm down some.  Hammer actually stood his front paws on Roses neck area and then hopped over her.  I had a heart attack of course but Rose didnt react at all! I was so proud! Hammer has been insisting on grooms in the beginning of the dates, but after 30 minutes he seems to forget and just gives in to Rose.  Hammer hopped all around her, basically circled her a few times.  I was always holding my breath when he hoped up brushing her face but she never did anything aggressive then.  The funniest part, Rose threw a fit over losing her footing on the bathroom floor.  The rug was in the wash so i put a towel down.  Hammer has no problem with the floor but Rose is terrified.  Anyway she had her front feet an inch off the towel and her back feet were of course on the towel.  She stretched forward to sniff something and her back feet slide the towel back and she was scrambling to find footing lol.  I had to pick her up and put her back on the towel lol.  It was funny, maybe you just had to be there lol.

I was brave yesterday, and for playtime i didnt block off their cages while Hammer was out.  Meaning that it was Rose in her cage and Hammer outside playing with only one layer of NIC cubes between them.  Usually its blocked off because Rose tries to fight thru the bars.  But she was a good bun!  Only tried once and a squirt of the bottle quickly got that under control.  Yay!  And, on top of that, I saw Rose groom her stuffed bunny this morning.  Not sure what it smells like because it stays in that cage when they switch cages, so probably a mixture of both their smells.  I had just to give her a raisin after that. 

They go to the vet tomorrow for exams and nail trims.  Its a new vet so its only 30 minutes away.  Think i should try one carrier in the car? and bring an extra? One carrier for the car and two for the vet visit? one the whole time or just forget it all together? What do you think?  And of course pictures because I love pictures.  First one is cute, second Hammer couldnt decide if he should groom his foot or Rose but he picked Rose.  Third rose looks like she likes him a little bit.

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[Beka27]

that sounds awesome. you might be able to move out of the bathroom soon… maybe a blocked off hallway where they’ve both had some access previously? are YOU driving tomorrow, or is someone else? if someone else is driving, or CAN drive you, you can sit in the back seat with the carrier to supervise. def. have an extra carrier or even a cardboard box handy just in case. car trips are excellent bonding opportunities.

[BunnyLiz]

Ill get my mom to drive me and ill do that, thanks! But do you think i should put them in different carriers once at the vets? Just play it by ear and see how they do in the car i would think. Poor Hammer absolutely hates the car and Rose tends to thump when she even catches sight of the carrier so this may be a real test lol. Wish us luck there! So almost time for semi neutral space then? Well i have none lol. The only place they have access is my room, which of course is their room for cages and playtime. Our hallway is tiny, probably not larger then the bathroom. And neither have been in there. Do i need to start making a space like that, by taking them each in there (wherever that is) every day for short periods of time? My options there are very very limited. Only my room, my moms room, and the hallway has carpet. Rose needs carpet lol. My room is out and so is my moms and the hall would be almost pointless. I might be able to get my mom to allow a pen in the living room with a large rug for a week or two. Problem there being it could only be 3×4 grids at best. Would that work or do i need to think harder and come up with something better? I cant think of anything now, but there is always something/smewhere that will work.

[Beka27]

the vet is a strange environment (very, very neutral) so i’d keep them together the whole way there, while you are at the vet and the whole way home.

i would try the hallway… does the bathroom open up into the hallway? you might open the door and allow the hall to become an extension of your bonding space…

[BunnyLiz]

Yep the bathroom and hall could be one, good thinking! And you dont even know my house.. how odd. But bathrooms do usually come from a hall lol. Ok well ill do that soon then. Will require much more prep with the hall, keeping all the dogs somewhere will be a pain since they will scratch the doors (all off the hall) if i lock them in somewhere, thus scaring the bunnies. Maybe the dogs will just have to make themselves comfortable outside then. idk ill figure that out later. Your a life saver, thanks!

[Beka27]

lol… yes, usually bathrooms are connected to some type of hallway… ;o)

[BunnyLiz]

Rose nipped once.. Hammer didnt groom as much as he did the past two times. I think Rose may have given Hammer two little grooms real quick but it was hard to tell from where i was. And when all was done, after i toke Hammer back to his cage, Rose thumped on my foot!! She was upset again when the session was over (maybe she just doesnt wanna be alone in the bathroom..?) and was thumping when i came back to her. She did it on purpose too! Ran directly to me when i came in and slammed down on my foot so hard that it was almost not funny for a minute. Its apparent that it will be her way or the highway lol.

[Kokaneeandkahlua]

LOL

Sometimes if you muss their fur, that’ll encourage grooming; You could get their face a little wet before the grooming session and see how that works-might make for more grooming and cuddling

[BunnyLiz]

Arrr im back!  About time right?! Way past time i know, sorry about that guys! I had to literally ban myself for BB, pathetic i know.  This year is NOT starting out well let me tell ya.  Flu like sickness, almost step sister who is 16 stole the car and wrecked on the highway (she’s fine), 5 family and friend birthdays, more major family drama, serious drama with my dad (im basically 18, no longer have to legally visit him, but i cant bring myself to do that considering i couldnt see my 5 and 7 year old brother and sister then! We dont have a great relationship), a best friend moved away to take an intern in Washington DC,  My 18th birthday is friday on the 23,  missed a week of school (from the flu like sickness) so tons of homework to finish today.  I go to Washington (and i get to see my friend! yay) every year for the March For Life, we leave tomorrow and get back friday so i gotta get my missed work in by tomorrow.   So Ive accepted the fact that im not going to have time to sleep tonight, seeing how ill have homework in my face all night, so why not go ahead and have some fun on BB?!  Goodness gracious its nice to just stop and have some fun on here!! Sorry about all the ranting, there isnt anyone here for me to whine to at the moment. 

Now the reason for my visit!  Im moving to the bathroom and hall tonight, yay! Hopefully all goes smoothly, but im going to do a quick date in the bathroom now, and the real date in the bathroom and hall later tonight. I thought it might be smart to do a quick one now just to get them friendly and warmed up, then a short break and go again.  It may be pointless, but oh well lol.   They have been doing well, sniffing through their cage bars and flopping together in their cages.  They had a slight set back when my cat jumped on top of Rose’s cage and scared her.  My cat meant no harm, trust me i know him lol, but Rose is easily scared and thumps often.  Well she thupmed NON-STOP for 25 miutes and Hammer either toke offense to that or was scared of her then.  Who knows with buns, but Hammer is fine with her now and Rose is back to the quiet thumping when a train goes by and she can feel the house shake a tiny bit.  Hammer seems to have no problem with her thumps then lol. 

[jerseygirl]

I can imagine her thumps are scary…she’s getting to be a big girl. I have no bonding advice for you Liz, just enjoy checking in on Rose and Hammer.
Sorry you’ve been unwell and had family issues. You look after yourself! I’ve bookmarked Friday by the way….

[BunnyLiz]

Lol Jersey does that mean i should be looking for a Happy Birthday post on friday lol

Well things went pretty well i think.  Rose had some nips when Hammer toke her by surprise and hopped to her to fast.  he was able to jump all around her, over her and be in her face without nips from Rose.  Hammer groomed quite a bit, 4 or 5 times he stopped to give her kisses.  Rose never did feel the need to give Hammer kisses in return though.  Poor Hammer would sit next to her after grooming her and thump and honk once before hopping away.  He wants some love too! 

[BunnyLiz]

I have no good news to report. Same old, same old. They arent doing bad but they arent making progress either. My mom actually volunteered part of her room to use in bonding, so thats good. Now the bonding space is a L shape with the bathroom hallway and part of her room. So i sit in the hall (corner of the L) and am able to monitor both rooms from there. No kisses from Rose, Hammer still spares a few on good days. Rose is still generous with her nipping. I added a big litterbox with hay to their setup today, which Rose loved. Hammer would hop and explore as usual, sometimes visiting Rose in the box. However Rose would not leave the litterbox (which is exactly what she did on their date, so they toke it away). I figured the entire point of this is interaction and them getting used to each others movements etc. so i kicked her out of the box and put it away. Good move, bad move, doesnt matter? Rose thought it was a bad move because she stood where it used to be and thumped for a few minutes, then loafed there and stared me down until i wished i was invisible to her lol.

[Beka27]

can you put Hammer in the box with her? sometimes if you’re seeing no progress, you have to move on to the next step. they may be getting too used to the bonding sessions, they’re not really a surprise anymore. i’m glad you’ve moved into your mom’s room.

you didn’t put them in the snow together did you? i wonder if that would have been weird enough for them to forget about each other temporarily…

[BunnyLiz]

yea i did put Hammer in the box with her a few times, but his overly active mind is not interested in simply sitting lol, and couldnt care less about munching on hay while he is free to run. So Hammer would only tolerate that for maybe 2 minutes with petting him and then he would hop out to go play again. Expanding to my moms room was new today, so maybe it will pick up and be interesting again soon. And no they had different snowy play times, they were not together. Are you thinking it may have been good for them to do it together? Or it was good they were apart? They are just so different, their complete opposites so its rare that they are ever on the same track, ya know? But when they are finally bonded im looking forward to them changing a little and sort of adopting some of the others personalities, hopefully. A happy medium between their activeness, maybe Hammer will teach Rose a thing or two about proper litter habits, Hopefully Hammer will pick up on Rose’s instincts to shy from dangerous things and stop trying to scare me with his wild jumping and dare devil stunts. lol I dreaming arent I?! Depending on how my physics homework goes Im going to try and do another session tonight. Ive got the right time periods, about an hour per session right? It doesnt hurt to do more then one session if I can correct?

[BunnyLiz]

I did another session today, so thats two for today, about an hour each. Rose didnt do as bad with claiming the litter box as home base, but i did eventually take it away. This time they mostly stayed in my moms room, maybe just because its new. But Hammer did some grooming, and mounted Rose. And i had to scold him because it was her face instead of her bottom. Why on earth is he trying to do that now when she has always been the dominant one!?! Anyways Rose binkied, and jumped over Hammer, so she was in a good mood. Now i hadnt thought to ask about this… and i probably should have beforehand…. i wasnt really thinking, but i feed them their salad together. At the end of the date when i gave the thumbs up that the dogs can come upstairs, and my mom as usual brought them up along with Hammer’s and Rose’s salad for the night. I was impulsive and decided to feed them during the date, instead of returning them to their pens and then giving them their salad. So it was bowl to bowl with the buns facing each other. I of course was right next to them, but they did fine. Rose eats faster so i did steal a few pieces from Hammer and slipped them into Rose’s bowl. So they finished at the same time and hammer hopped away while Rose licked the bowl clean making sure no flavor was left. So im happy!! I thought it would be a bit more tricky then that to get them to eat peacefully. Did i act to soon though? Do or dont recommend doing that for now? They got a little piece of banana too, and i put Rose’s piece on Hammers head. After she ate it, she groomed his forehead!!!!! Yay Rose!!!!! It wasnt much, only 5-6 little licks but maybe it made Hammer happy and he will be more willing to cooperate!

I think your right about them being unsurprised by bonding now Beka. I discovered an awesome convenient trick they have picked up! Apparently its routine now. I think they know when its time, they can tell by seeing me set it up, gathering the cats and dogs downstairs etc etc. Well I always carry Rose first, then Hammer out into the hall and set them down. Well tonight when i went to get Rose she hopped herself straight out of my room and went to sit in the hall. She got praised for that, because i always get scratched when i carry her. Thought maybe Hammer would do it too, so i let him out of his cage and sure enough he hopped straight out of my bedroom door and went into the hall with Rose lol. When bonding was over i coaxed Hammer to my door and opened it, he hopped out of the hall and into my room straight to the pen that was open (i close his previous pen doors and open rose’s, because i always bring him in first). So i came back to my door and called for Rose who also went straight to her pen (hammers previous pen, they switch of course). Thats easy!! They actually did what i wanted them to lol, im so happy i could cry lol jk.

[Beka27]

i alway fed food together, whether it was some special BB hay, some parsley, a few carrot matchsticks, or their regular salad. eating a great bonding activity and if there is no food aggression while they eat, that’s awesome! what you can also do during non-bonding time is have their food right near the middle in the pen so they have to face each other to eat.

the pen they’re in now, are they still separated by a few inches? if they are not aggressive in the pens, you might consider removing the extra barrier sometime this week.

[BunnyLiz]

Ok well their bedtime salads they will eat together during bonding now. I was expecting Rose to be a little aggressive but she surprised me. Although when Hammer ate a piece of hay that Rose apparently wanted she toke it out of his mouth, turned her side to him and ate it herself lol.

Yep they are still separated by about 3 inches. It will be a serious pain to take out that extra barrier, serious hours and some serious bloodshed on my part haha. Zip ties are my enemy to begin with, but the way its built will not make them cooperate easily. With the little 2×1 grid shelves they have, i have 2 curtain rod running from one end of one pen to the other end of the other pen, under the selves to hold some weight. To get the extra barrier out i have to take the rods out. To take the rods out i have to move the whole pen because its tightly wedged in between a wall and my bed. To move the pen i have to move my bed out of the way. To move my bed i have to clear the hallway. And so on and so on lol. I think ill cheat and just remove the 4 that arent connected to the rods and leave the other 2 that are! It will save time, some blood, and my sanity lol. When they are finally bonded and i have to make their big pen im planning on, it will probably be a huge two day affair.

[Beka27]

that is great about Rose being so gentle while eating. my two regularly take food from each other’s mouth. it’s really cute.

[BunnyLiz]

Guess what im doing!!  Bonding AND doing stuff on my computer at the same time!  Its awesome!  They seem to be doing ok so i can check emails and some homework while they do their thing now!   They havent nipped in a while so i think i can trust them enough to take my eyes and squirt bottle off them.  Im on my laptop so im sitting on the floor with them but its progress and a serious help for me in the time management area.  They evem bonded a little by plotting to destroy the barrier in my moms room to escape.  By the time i saw what was going on (they were very quiet!) Hammer had escaped and Rose was well on her way lol    They have been sharing half of there afternon pellets all scattered on a blanket, they get the rest of their portion after bonding in their pens.  Neither seem to mind racing the other to the last pellet and havent fought over it.  And you may not believe it but they are both laying down (loafed but still laying) next to each other right now!!  Ill sneak away and get my camera in a minute lol.  I toke down their extra NIC cubes in the pens, so its bun, one nic grid, other bun now.  The first day i did that i found 2 or 3 tuffs of Hammers hair in his pen next to the grids between the two pens.  I looked for a wound but im not sure where the fur came from so there was only so much inspecting he would let me do.  Other then that one little problem they are great!  Its not uncommon that i catch them flopped next to each other in their pens.  Hammer still grooms every now and then, Rose still doesnt.  Maybe Rose is just really really moral and she thinks they should be bonded before she kisses him lol.  O drat, no picture!  One of my cats just snuck in and playfully pounced on the two of them!! Of course Hammer nose bumped back and Rose ran for cover.  O well.  But anyways how do I know if they are ready to move on to my room, with shared playtime and non neutral space?  They are doing good but Rose still half lunges at him sometimes if he is too fast coming towards her.  I havent seen any nips but depending on the angle im at her lunge could have resulted in a lunge a time or two.  Forced cuddles arent needed now though, and Rose doesnt just sit and claim the litterbox now either… so are they ready? 

[BunnyMuffin]

Oh progress! How exciting! It’s kinda hard to say when they’re ready to move to the next step. It’s just kinda a gut feeling kinda thing. I decided that it was time when I was getting bored watching them in the bathtub because there was no activity. I took them to the living room, where they both had separate run times, but put them in an xpen with towels down. So it was kinda semi-neutral. I also used the same towels that I’d used to line the tub, I thought they might think they were their “us” towels. 😛 So it seems like if they aren’t ready now, they might be soon since you’re now able to multi-task. I’m not sure about the lunging and nipping because my two didnt do that. Just Wally and his mounting – which he still occasionally thinks is a good idea (but Noelle is quite good at getting away!). So maybe that’ll be Rose’s thing – just the occasional lunge without actually hurting Hammer.

I’m sure you’ll get plenty of better advice from more experienced folks than me, but good luck and keep us updated!

[Beka27]

If you think they’re ready, they might be ready. I like BunnyMuffin’s idea to put them in your room, but in an xpen or grid fence with a blanket down… or you could put the fence half inside your room, half in the hallway. So they can see/smell their shared space, but they are still a bit outside of it. I think you’re doing a great job, so don’t be afraid to move on to the next step. Sometimes being too cautious is worse than being too quick when it comes to bonding bunnies.

[BunnyLiz]

Well yesterdays date was about 2 hours. The first hour was great. But around the 1 and a half hour mark they had mounting wars. Hammer did, got him off after a few seconds, then Rose was offended so she did. Then more of Hammer. I kept breaking them up, but before long Hammer would go at it again. I held and petted him for a while, hoping he would just forget his ingenious idea. Which he did, he was good for about 15 minutes after that and so i ended there, hopefully on a good note. Maybe they arent ready yet…. i dont even know who will end up being top bun yet!! Neither one ever did this much, so its not normal for them. Idk, maybe ill judge it all on how i think they do today and maybe move to the half room half hall thing. Probably wont do that till at least Monday though, its my dad’s weekend again!! So annoying having to put off bonding! And next weekend is a road trip with a friend to visit another friend. Weekend after that is my senior retreat!! So frustrating having this take so long lol. If i had the option of weekends i could do several sessions a day and this would all be going a lot faster im sure! The lesson being do not take on a bun that you plan on bonding until summer when you dont have school. Not that i plan on any more.

[Marcibun]

I’m going to start bunny dating soon, reading this has been very helpful! So, thanks!

[BunnyLiz]

Ok well they are having sessions (as i type actually) in the bathroom/hall/moms room plus about a 3×3 space of my room. Their is a NIC fence blocking off all but that small portion of my room, that connects to the hall and the rest of the space. They dont seem to care about them both being in their shared space of my room. They are both fine with the other being their, and they do actually tend to lounge in that 3×3 space more. They are also fine with sharing pellets in that space. But i still dont think they know who is boss. Rose still presents herself for grooming a lot, Hammer will still sometimes groom, Rose will not groom. But now Hammer is humping. *sigh* So I dont think they have that worked out yet. Rose usually runs away when he does, other times she just waits till i yell at him. But on the positive side, Rose hasnt nipped in a while. But I think Hammer did pull Rose’s fur a little when she tried to run away and he wasnt too happy about that. So im stuck. Doesnt seem like they are moving forward, just in a rut. Seems like they tolerate each other without actually liking each other. But what do i know, im just guessing!!

[Beka27]

I responded in your other thread before I saw this one. I think you should put them together in a pen overnight. It does sound like they might be ready for that next step. Don’t worry about them not grooming each other freely, that sometimes comes later on. The humping is okay, esp. if Rose is not becoming aggressive. If she will just lay there and accept it, or if she runs off, but does not turn to bite, those are great signs. Max humps Meadow every single day, but it’s alright b/c she does not mind. Some pairs will always have bits of humping here and there. He may also be humping to “reclaim her” since they keep getting separated and reintroduced.

Did you say you would be gone this weekend? How about when you get back Sunday you try them together in your room only (no hallway, no mom’s room)? If they do okay there for a couple hours with supervision, I’d consider penning them together that night.

[BunnyMuffin]

I agree with Beka. I also wanted to share that my bunnies don’t really have the dominance thing sorted out either, but they’ve been living together since at least November, I think. Noelle constantly demands grooming and very very rarely grooms Wally (and never groomed him when they first got moved in together). And Wally still gets frisky every 1 to 2 days and tries to mount Noelle. So it kinda sounds like your two. Maybe they’re feeling egalitarian instead choosing the dominant-submissive form of government. 😛

I have to admit I slept in the living room and got a terrible night’s sleep their first night together to make sure I’d wake up if there was any scuffling, so a school night might not be the best choice if you’re nervous like me! But it might be your best option if you’re away weekends a lot lately. Best of luck!

[Cassi&Charlie]

My guys don’t have the dominance issue worked out yet either but have been living together relatively succefully since September so I vote for a sleep over You’ll have a terrible night sleep though lol because paranioa will set in

[Beka27]

They make good points about school the next day…

Whenever you decide to do it, try to schedule it so you’ll be home at night for at least the first 2-3 nights.

[BunnyLiz]

O wow im nervous!! Yea im gone this weekend, leaving in 2 hours. But Im thinking ill be back Sunday afternoon. I could let them out in my room for a while then and see how it goes. If it goes well then they can share a pen. Im not worried about school nights. I usually get 5 hours of, 7 at best, sleep every night so im trained to deal with it. I think im gonna let them both out in my room right now for about an hour and see how they do. I have a little time so might as well use it. But im so so nervous, im a huge worry wort about everything!!

[BunnyLiz]

Might not matter but quick question. Should i leave each of the pen doors open while they are both out in my room? Or would that cause a possible fight? Im just asking because i always leave the pen open when one is out in case they wanna go back in there or need to go potty.

[Cassi&Charlie]

It might cause a fight. I was always amazed at how aggresive Charlie became everytime Layla was near his pen. That was my one obsticle to bonding them properly, charlie’s insane aggressivness about his pen. I would put a seperate litterbox area down – maybe you can wash out a litterboxwith vinegar – so that it’s neutral. Then they might go together and nibble hay together.

[Beka27]

I did that as well, a separate litterbox with hay in the room, but with both pen doors closed. I did eventually let them out with the pen doors opened and I was SO Nervous that they’d start scuffling inside the xpen. But they did very well. There was a little bit of “what the heck are YOU doing in MY pen?!” but it passed pretty quickly. Once I realized that they were both hopping in and out of each pen and snuggling together inside the pens, I decided to let them stay together unsupervised. THAT is very nerve-wracking. But they both survived and that night I penned them together and they’ve been together ever since.

[BunnyLiz]

Well i did end up letting them out together in my room before i left for the weekend. And I have mixed feelings as to how it went. They were a little confused and mad at first, with some flat ears all the way down. But I scattered some pellets for them to share and they got over the initial shock quickly. Rose seemed like she was both mad and scared but didnt want Hammer to know she was scared lol. She sat in a corner and when Hammer would zoom by she lunged. Hammer seemed pretty happy though. Looked like he was showing off part of the time though too, big binkies and zooms only in front of Rose. When he actually binkyed into Rose’s face unexpectedly she nipped and got a huge clump of his fur. The other time he zoomed to close and lost another chunk of fur. While Rose munched on hay Hammer lounged with both back feet out and watched Rose. Soon she came over to investigate, Hammer stayed in his two feet out position but his ears were following her. She went behind him and sniffed his tail. Whats up with that? She looked like she might nip so i reminded her to be nice and she behaved. She kept sniffing so Hammer pulled his back feet back up under him. A minute later he was turned around and in a groom stand off. I know that Hammer is afraid of her now. She was sitting watching him and he ran directly to her (not mean, looked friendly) but stopped about 6 inches away and backed up. Literally backed up, didnt stop and turn around, he just reversed because she put her ears back and extended her neck as if to bite. So good that they didnt have any major fights, bad on a few accounts.

[Beka27]

In that case, I’d keep doing the bonding in your room only now. It sounds like they’re comfortable other places, but there are still some issues to be worked out in their home turf.

[BunnyLiz]

Alright ill stick to my room and hope for improvement. I dont know why these silly bunnies cant just get over it and be friends!! One day they will realize they are just being stubborn and notice that they are meant to be lol.

[Author]

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