Gracie’s peeing issue – High Calcium

[skibunny8503]

I think I’ve said before that I’ve been having problems with SOMEBUNNY peeing outside their cage or litter box.  Well I know it’s been Gracie.  I think I have her figured out and figured the last clue tonight.  She pees when she’s scared (with a full bladder), is put down after being held, gets really excited (she was running all around for her pellets and ended up peeing this morning) and also the missing piece….there would always be pee right next to the litter box and underneath and I wouldn’t be able to figure out how it happened….today I saw her jump in the litter box (not all the way in), tail up and starting to pee and it goes outside the box.  We’ve tried all kinds of litter boxes for them and this one was the biggest we could come up with, so it’s not like it’s too small, she just doesn’t get her butt in there all the way sometimes.  We have a decent sized tubberware box for them.  I can’t get sides that are higher or she might not even go in then.  I wonder if anyone else had this happen with older buns before?  I have to take Sandy to the vet’s this week for her nails to get trimmed and will try to talk to the vet about Gracie.  I doubt there’s anything you can really do about this.  She’s just a bun with a weak bladder I guess.  Any ideas or suggestions would be great though.  I do think some peeing is territorial with Sandy which I can deal with because I knew it would be an issue if they weren’t bonded.  She peed on the carpet today right outside the cage, by the gate, maybe to say “don’t cross this line or spot”.

[jerseygirl]

Ski, I’m glad you posted this. Helps to know someone else out there is going through same frustration as me. I have also thought about it being stress related. I think you’re onto something there. It is hard to identify triggers when you don’t know her entire history. With Jersey, food is one of the triggers. Like when she doesn’t get any on begging or when the veggies are all eaten. I wonder if she is stressed when the food for the day has “run out”. Like the act of peeing is a stress relief…..(???)

How old is Gracie? Are you worried she has less mobility? I’m wondering whether you might try a box with lower sides? Even a wide tray with hay in the middle tempting them to walk all the way onto it.

I also have to clean up pee under the box but it runs under there as there is a slope in the floor.

Have you tried restricting her space? I really encourage you to try this now so her habits she has now don’t become ingrained. This is what I fear I’m working against.

[skibunny8503]

Least I’m not alone haha!  It IS frusturating, just yesterday I must have cleaned up their cage three times.   When I adopted her in Feb. 09 she guessed she was around 4 o 5 years old but for all we know she could be older or younger.  She has had a rough past but when I first got her she didn’t pee all over like this.  (although they picking up and putting down seems to have always happen). 

If she’s laying down for awhile she stretches her legs and seems to have a harder time getting up than Archie, like maybe her legs went asleep.  She hasn’t peed on the carpet for a long time now so yesterday was the first time in awhile and it’s right next to the lino. of the cage.  She mostly pees in her cage so I’m not sure what restricting will do (plus she’s stubborn).  Oh I forgot, if her bladder is full and Archie tries to hump her, she’ll leave a little trail of pee.  The other day we had a tornado warning and we had to gather them up and put them in their carriers and she must have seen the carrier and knew something was up and when i tried to pick her up she peed and them hopped off flicking it in my face YUCK!   

We were out at Petsmart and looked at the litter boxes (cat ones since they only have 3 tiny triangle litter boxes for rabbits) but they were all higher than the one we have.  Their hay bin is right in front of them when the go in the litter box so I’m thinking maybe she rushes in like she can’t hold it and lets it loose without walking all the way in.  I did finally figure out the poop issue where she goes poop when she eats her pellets, I went and bought a metal bowl (same I use their greens for) and hook it to the part of the cage by the hay so it’s in the litter box.  I’m hoping this will work, it comes in the mail tomorrow. 

Here’s a pic of the litter box.  I have a litter box with really really high sides and a lower part to get into but then they can’t get to their nifty hay rack. 

 

[Sarita]

Have you ever had a urinalysis done on her?

[skibunny8503]

Posted By Sarita on 06/07/2010 07:50 AM
Have you ever had a urinalysis done on her?

No, but I’m going to call the vet this week for Sandy and I’ll talk to the Dr. and ask her what she thinks.  I kind of figured she has a weak bladder but I didn’t think anything could be done about it.  What does the urinalysis find?

[HatterBunny]

With the high litterboxes, is there anyway that you could cut the entrance down a little bit and then smooth it so there are no sharp edges?

[skibunny8503]

Possibly but I dunno. I did call the vet today after cleaning up pee AGAIN (I got fed up and broke down and called today instead of tomorrow). I told her what was going on and she said it could be a number of things and she scheduled me in for this Wed. She said it could be something with age and possibly diabetic, urinary infection, or stones. So we’ll see what she says on Wed.

[KatnipCrzy]

A urinalysis will check for signs of infection, crystals, high PH, etc.  It is always best to eliminate the factor it could be medical- as if you are only trying to modify behavior- the medical issue will not resolve.  And since she is well past the rampaging hormone teenager pre-spay stage- I think a urinalysis will be very helpful and give you a better idea of what you are or are not dealing with.

If you want to blunt cut plastic edges- you can either try to lightly sand them or use something metal that is heated to slightly melt them.

[skibunny8503]

Thanks Katnip, I will def. bring up doing a urinalysis if she doesn’t suggest it tomorrow. I didn’t think about melting it, good idea! I’ll let you guys know how it goes tomorrow.

[skibunny8503]

Well went to the vet today…Gracie got some blood work done and the results came back and everything’s good. She gave me a urine kit to get her pee so she can do testing. She said if I wanted I could get x-rays if I didn’t want to get the pee but it would cost $100. She also gave me baytril to give her (she said to put a drop of vanilla extract in it so it tastes better) if she does have any infection. I have to get the urine first before starting the baytril.

ETA: It figures, you want the rabbit to actually pee on the floor so you can get a sample and they won’t do it.  I’ll have to keep trying before I give her the baytril….I hate giving her meds.

[Monkeybun]

When I got Monkey’s pee for urinalysis, I just put her in a clean cat carrier without anything on the floor. She peed in no time, and it was nice and easy to clean up.

[Deleted User]

Just keep in mind that a watched pot won’t boil … so you might be waiting for a while.

[skibunny8503]

I got the urine today (held her in my arms for awhile and put her down, she tried to run to the litter box but I made her pee on the floor….I felt bad).  I took it in and was gone the rest of the day.  I came back home not to long ago and there was a message from the doctor.  She said that her PH was a little high and she wanted me to start meds.  She said she wanted me to call back about her diet.  It turns out her calcium is really high and she said if she’s on alfalfa hay to switch to grass and to switch to a timothy based pellet.  Well the thing is, she’s on timothy grass and timothy pellets…so not sure about that.  I will call her in the morning and see what she suggests.  It’s not like I give her a whole banana to eat, I give her a few raisins and maybe a piece of mint but I don’t try to go over board so I don’t think it would be that.  We shall see though.  I’m so glad nothing major turned up though, so that’s a relief!

 

ETA: I called the vet up this morning and told her Gracie’s diet.  She said to switch her to a grass hay instead of timothy.  I’m like isn’t timothy a grass hay?  I was kind of confused what she meant and she also didn’t know all the kinds of hay.  I asked her if Orchard would be better, I know there’s a farm not too far that sells orchard.  She said she’d look into it and call back.  Meanwhile, I looked on binkybunny to see the calcium content of each kind of hay and saw that wheat (is it wheat straw or wheat hay or isn’t there a difference??) was the lowest in calcium and that 2nd cutting of timothy (which we have now) is a little higher in calcium than the 1st cutting and orchard is a little lower than timothy.  I don’t know any place around here that has wheat (at least not on craigslist, I’ll do some more research though) and I hate buying bales from a petstore or even mini bales since we’re tight on money and they go through hay so much.  We’re going to try to get some orchard hay and I’ll probably buy a bale of wheat from the site.  So hopefully that’ll get her calcium levels down.  Does anyone have any other suggestions on how to get it down?

[Deleted User]

It is a standard recommendation to go with grass hay when there are elevated calcium levels found. In your case, ski, I wonder if there isn’t another reason for Gracie’s ca levels. Her diet is pretty much perfect, it is right on the mark. Did the vet consider metabolic bone disease? This disease causes rabbits to draw more calcium from their bones, genetics are thought to be the culprit, and reducing dietary ca intake can actually weaken such a rabbit’s skeletal structure. There is no cure, they are just studying it now. I will alert Sarita to your post, she might know more.

[Sarita]

I think your vet is confused because timothy hay is grass hay. Did your vet do any bloodwork to check the calcium level or is she just basing this on a urinalysis?

[Elrohwen]

Also, aren’t pellets a more likely cause of excess calcium than hay? Barring what Petzy said, it might be helpful to lower her pellet amount (not sure what you feed now though). I know BB has Jack on a no-pellet diet.

[Deleted User]

Skibun, did you ever resolve what was causing Gracie’s wet chin? Did the vet look at her teeth?
I agree with El that you might want to look into reducing pellets.

Here is a link to the HRS journals about calcium.

 

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/calcium.html

[Deleted User]

Type of Hay	Calcium %
1 Wheat Hay	0.13
2 Bromegrass mature	0.24
3 Orchard Grass early	0.24
4 Bermuda grass 43-56 days	0.24
5 Orchard Grass late	0.24
6 Bluegrass	0.24
Meadow Mix (nic in study)	0.24
7 Oat Hay	0.29
Bermuda grass 29-42 days	0.30
Bunny Blend (nic in study)	0.33
9 Timothy – late bloom	0.34
10 Bermuda grass15-28 days	0.35
11 Fescue – mature	0.37
12 Timothy – mid bloom	0.43
13Timothy – early bloom	0.45
14 Rye Grass	0.53

15 Alfalfa full bloom	1.08
16 Alfalfa mid bloom	1.24
17 Alfalfa early bloom	1.28

Texas A&M Department of Animal Sciences

 

[Elrohwen]

Interesting that timothy is at the top of the list for grasses (also interesting that it has half as much calcium as alfalfa). Thanks for that chart!

[Deleted User]

Is Gracie overweight? If yes, this could be a contributing factor. Have you heard of all-hay pellets? There is a company that makes them. I bet the rabbits won’t like them half as much but it would help in reducing weight as well as calcium.

midvalleymillinghaypellets.com/prod…ay-pellets

[skibunny8503]

The vet did do blood work but I’m not sure what all was checked. She said everything was fine but her PH level was elevated and there was something with her white blood cells I think (maybe they were high, I can’t remember) and the calcium was high (calcium was from the urinalysis though because she told me that after the tests results came back from the urine). What are signs of that metabolic disease exactly? It’s hard to manage food since there’s 2 rabbits in the same cage. They might eat about the same amount of pellets or Gracie might be eating more sometimes. She’s always the one that eats the most. I feed them a 1/2 cup of pellets and they share it from the bowl. I have managed to get the pooping outside the litter box straightened out since she only really did that in the morning eating pellets. I got the metal bowl that bolts onto the cage and attacked it so they would most likely have to go in the litter box….sometimes they put their paws on the litter box and eat out of the bowl like they’re at a table haha! But it’s gotten a lot better.
There was pee this morning in two places. The pee was dark orange…but when I got the pee out of her for the sample it was yellow. I don’t feed her any differently, so I’m not sure why it changes colors.

Oh the calcium on the oxbow basic T bag says the min is 0.35% and max is 0.85%, just FYI.

[Elrohwen]

High white blood cell count can indicate a bacterial infection. Did she test for a UTI?

Also, pee can change color based on which veggies she’s eating. Carrots and spinach can cause darker pee.

[skibunny8503]

I haven’t really switched any greens around unless it’s maybe a different treat I gave her and can’t remember. What’s UTI exactly? She did give me baytril to start her on. Thanks petzy for the chart that helps a lot! Do you guys think I should get some orchard grass?
They’ve been getting green leaf, romaine and endive lettuce (mostly endive right now, have to get more today). Is there a difference between blood calcium and calcium through a urine test?

Oh and I don’t believe she’s overweight, they weighted her in at 4.8lbs.  She’s a mini lop (mix).

[Deleted User]

It is hard to control pellet intake with multiple bunnies eating together. I would look into switching to the all-hay pellets. I wish I could get those in Canada, I would switch mine today. Oxbow T is a great pellet but it does contain high-calory ingredients such wheat middlings, soybean meal and cane molasses.

[skibunny8503]

I just bought 15 lbs of pellets too lol! They don’t have a deal around my area.

[skibunny8503]

Posted By Petzy on 06/11/2010 11:00 AM

Skibun, did you ever resolve what was causing Gracie’s wet chin? Did the vet look at her teeth?
I agree with El that you might want to look into reducing pellets.

Here is a link to the HRS journals about calcium.

 

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/calcium.html

 

Oops I forgot to respond to this….yes her chin is all better, never did figure out if it was a bite or what but it seems the revolution fixed it. 

Never mind about UTI, wasn’t thinking…urinary tract infection duh!    I would think that would have come up in the urinalysis.

[BinkyBunny]

Jack has problems processing calcium. His pee first gets white, and if he doesn’t drink enough fluids, then it can get very thick like a big white soft mush, and last year he developed a stone. When he was younger I noticed he would excrete more white than my other bunnies, but only until he aged did things get worse to a point of it being a true medical problem. He is not a big water drinker — I created a special diet page that shows what Jack’s vet recommended diet and treatment plan is. https://binkybunny.com/BUNNYINF…Default.aspx.

[skibunny8503]

Thanks BB, I’ll take a look at that page! Her pee seems normal but she usually drinks a lot. I think we’ll go get some orchard hay and buy a mini bale of wheat and see how that goes…?? How do feed one rabbit less pellets than the other when that one likes to pig out and steal the other rabbit’s food? I think it’s in Gracie’s nature to eat as much food as she can get because with her background she was in a small cage and I don’t think she was hardly fed, so she’s always protective with food and has to eat it now or she thinks she might not get fed later on…or so I’m guessing. It’s so hard too because they are such good beggers!

[Elrohwen]

You could just lower their amount of pellets overall. Adult buns don’t *have* to eat 1/4c per day – you could cut them down to sharing 1/4c.

I feed 1/4c in the morning, and half that in the evening, so that Hannah eats more hay to keep her teeth trimmed.

[BinkyBunny]

Posted By skibunny8503 on 06/12/2010 07:59 AM
  How do feed one rabbit less pellets than the other when that one likes to pig out and steal the other rabbit’s food? I think it’s in Gracie’s nature to eat as much food as she can get because with her background she was in a small cage and I don’t think she was hardly fed, so she’s always protective with food and has to eat it now or she thinks she might not get fed later on…or so I’m guessing. It’s so hard too because they are such good beggers!

 

It is difficult when you have two bunnies, but the my vet said that Jack’s diet was healthy enough for Vivian too, so I just switched them both over to a non-pellet diet.  They have the “window seat now” where they can get their Vit D through the open window (screened!).   Also Vivian makes it easy for me because she likes to go to her VIvian hideout for a couple of hours a day, and I started giving her a very small portion of pellets there.  Now she knows to go there for her pellets.

Is there anyway you can feed them when they are running around the house and feed one bunny away from the other?   They could be engulfed in their own bowls across the room from each other.    If one bunny doens’t eat all of his pellets, while the other scarfs hers down and eats the others then  I would probably be forced to feed them smaller portions a couple of times a day am and pm –so that the slower eating bunny could consume the smaller portions while the hog bunny scarged down her own portions during that time.   Hopefully, that made sense.

You might find that when she eats less pellets too, she won’t have so much of the excretion.  

[Nibbles_NZ]

What is Gracie’s diet as far as greens and other veggies? kale, mustard greens and some other greens are high in calcium.

[skibunny8503]

They never liked Kale, mustard greens or anything that didn’t seem juicy. So I usually just buy Romaine, green leaf, endive and parsley. They get fed around noon and before I go to bed. I think she might have gotten more pellets with their treat ball…I usually put pellets in that but I’m going to cut that down now.

[Author]

Messages