Glenn and Nellie

[GlennTheLionhead]

So the time has come… I am both excited and exhausted already at the thought of bonding again lol! As some of you will know Glenn, myself and my bridge bun Bella went through 4 months of bonding (successfully) November 21 – Feb 22.. So the bonding trauma is fresh for us all.

I have successfully bonded 2 pairs before now with the help of this forum and this will be my third time bonding Glenn… So I am not sure how many questions I will end up asking or if this will end up being more of a bonding story.

I am going to begin the process tonight starting with a ‘testing the waters meeting’ this is essentially a speed date, so I will put a pen grid in front of Nellies pen upstairs so its double penned and space between and I will invite Glenn to run upstairs and allow them to see eachother for a short time through the barriers…. I do this to see if there are any signs of outright agression.

If they are not trying to attack eachother through the bars I will set them up in side by side enclosures to pre-bond

Spay/Neuter
Glenn neuters since puberty (age 5)

Penelope (Nellie) spayed at the rescue in mid march (age 5-6)

Housing
If the speed date goes well they will pre-bond as neighbours for 2 weeks – 4 weeks behaviour dependant and until bonding is complete

Bonding background
I’ve done a lot of passive scent swapping, allowing them to smell fur of the other (molt), toy swapping for the last week or so. Glenn flopped on Nellies fur, Nellie was uninterested in Glenns.

Glenn is a long time resident, very easy going personality and very dominant personality towards all humans and rabbits he’s met.. But friendly and not aggressive. Nellie came to us early April from a rescue, she received dental surgey, deworming and antibiotic eye drop treatment mid april. Nellie seems to have settled in now but is clearly lonley and anxious without a friend. She has only had interaction with one male whom she mated with at a young age and was then housed with her 4 daughters in a hutch… So she is not used to males or humans, hates to be touched but will eat out of our hands.

[DanaNM]

So exciting! Every pair really is different, but I’ve noticed that buns that have lived with other buns tend to be more “gentle” in bonding so fingers crossed for a smooth process for Glenn and Nellie!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

Speed date was okay!

They both had an inital stare off and then when Nellie moved Glenn was initially very startled, thumped, ran downstairs and started darting around the house, eyes bulging… But he collected himself and went back up and after eating some plaintan through the bars together Glenn went to the complete flip side and was standing up on his back legs on the grids and trying to squeeze through gaps to get to Nellie lol! In an inquisitive and non aggressive way though. Nellie kept her cool pretty much the whole time, loafing, using the litter tray and being inquisitive… She was in the comfort of her own pen though.

I didn’t see anything overtly territorial so on with the pre- bonding 😊

I will need to split Glenns pen in half so they will have approx 30 sqft each (and free roam alternately) instead of Glenn having his usual 60 (a minimum space requirement for adoption in the UK believe it or not) and she will be smack bang in his space…. Should I expect this to cause a lot of upset or maybe I shouldn’t even house them like this at all?

[GlennTheLionhead]

So Glenn and Nellie have been neighbours since yesterday evening, so just under 24 hours.

Nellie seems happy with the arrangement, in the first 30 minutes of them being neighbours Nellie has been binky at the sight of Glenn which she has never done before, she has been really excitedly rushing to mirror everything Glenn does and flopping up againt the pen closest to Glenn and grooming away….. I guess this would mean shes happy and excited to see a new friend? I have been suspicious that a lot of her anxiety stems from loneliness and her reaction seems to solidify that idea that she thrives in the presence of other rabbits.

I cannot say the feeling was mutual. Glenn started pooping allllll over the place and chin rubbing everything and snuggling up to my legs in front of Nellie (not sure if he was claiming me or just drawing comfort as he was upset), we had an initial thump when he first stubbled on the arrangement (he was sleeping upstairs while I worked on the set up) but after a short while he kinda chilled out and they ate hay together and chewed toys together the rest of the night, I think its to be expected as he’s essentially just had an intruder take over half of his usual home base and theres nothing he can do about it (it was the only was the neighbours arrangment could work in our house) he seems to have settled down already today tho and hasn’t shown any aggression at all, just disapproval…. He’s always been pretty territoral for a male anyway.

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Happy to see that Nellie is mirroring him, that sounds promising!

[DanaNM]

Haha! Sounds good to me! Let the poop wars commence!

The flopping and binkying always cracks me up. I my interpretation is the bun is saying “look how much I’m not threatened by you”.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Yes, I’ve read somewhere that some bunnies flop on purpose while meeting a new rabbit. Just to show how unimpressed they are. I think it was at the rabbitspeak website.

[GlennTheLionhead]

Maybe haha! Glenn went straight to thumping lol.

They seem to be getting on okay through the bars, lots of mirroring and super dead bunny flops/sleeping … Could be them trying to be jerks to eachother lol but at the least they are pretty chilled out in eachothers presence. Glenn is still popping everywhere though, including places he usually doesn’t like our bedroom lol.

From what I’ve observed, in comparision to Glenns late wives, Bella and Maggie, Glenn and Nellie appear more chilled and relaxed around eachother and the mirroring was instant whereas its took a while with the other two girls (although Maggie was the love of his life, they were inseparable).

Im dreading the bonding already lol

[GlennTheLionhead]

AHHHH omg omg omg

Just made a massive mistake! I was working from home and I gave the bunnies both a treat and SOMEHOW must have forgotten to close the gates to their pens… Anyway, popped to tge kitchen for 5 minutes…. Didn’t hear anything going on… Walked towards the hall and noticed both pens open, ran over in panic and Glenn is inside Nellie pen!! they were just there together unsupervised…. I cannot believe it…

Is there anything I should do? I have no idea if they could have fought or what… They were just stood there kinda a few inches apart… They both look okay and Nellie is flooped noe and they both took a treat.

Glenn was upstairs before so the interaction could have been anything from him having just stepped in her pen… To 5 minutes of humping and circling.

Is there any advise to follow here?are there anything testers I can do to judge if they would have fought… Or do I just continue as normal since neither are injured and be super careful next time.

[GlennTheLionhead]

Update, Glenn is also now flopped…. Perhaps their first ‘date’ was a positive experience for them….

Obviously I ran over shouting Glenns name in horror so they were both just frozen staring at me when I ran over.

UPDATE:

Both seem relax mirror grooming themselves and Nellies flopped right up against the pen and then Glenn done a little playful head flick and started eating hay and flopped.

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Whew, crisis averted it seems! 🙂 We’ve had a couple of breakouts too before we started bonding. (I strongly suspect that my boyfriend didn’t close the pen properly after feeding them.) Our bunnies would chase after each other and made a lot of noise. It seems like yours are already more adjusted to each other than ours were.

[DanaNM]

Haha! Things happen!

But great they didn’t fight! Definitely a good sign for future dates in neutral territory!  If you didn’t find the room full of fur tufts then I’m sure nothing bad happened. If they had fought you would have also heard them… bunnies tussling make a ton of noise!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Yes, tell me about it! I woke up several times to the sound of thumping feet and scrabbling nails. I could hear them chase each other from the other side of the house. Bas was in front of a computer screen, so naturally: he completely missed it while being in the same room… 🙄

[GlennTheLionhead]

You have both made me feel better about it, thanks. Everyone has calmed down from the panic now… Although it seems like the bunnies were un-phased anyway so it’s really just me that needed to calm down lol, they have just gone about their day as normal since, so there doesn’t appear to be any lasting grudes.

Ellie my boyfriend is the same, nothing can break his focus from the computer screen lol!

[GlennTheLionhead]

So the babies have been pre-bonding for a day shy of two weeks now. It has gone swimmingly and they are both very calm in eachothers presence and have been mirroring since day 1! They are always hanging out by the pen grates and eating together! Its the calmest I’ve seen any of the 3 girls with Glenn… Glenn has been the same level of, territorial for a couple days to friendly floppy oaf with all 3 of the girls in the pre-bonding stage no he’s predictable lol.

I think I’m going to bite the bullet and set them up for a date tonight! Second date but first official lol.

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

That’s so exciting! Good luck, and send pics ^_^

[DanaNM]

Sounds great! Fingers crossed for the date! 🙂

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

Yay time to revive this thread!

After what feels like the longest break ever I am going to reignite the bonding flame!

We had a break due to Glenn being ill for a little while, I was out of country with work for a couple weeks and he didn’t resume eating hay as normal till the day after I got back… I don’t know if that was stress from me being away right after his surgery or just a coincidence thats how long it took him to regain normal gut functioning after an extended period of poor appitite and meds… Either way I can never leave him again just incase lol!

But anyway… Looking forward to the bonding again and documenting it here! Both buns appear healthy and happy, if anything Glenn seems to be titering on the edge of low mood, I think because all of the change happening and his space being occupied by some new bun lol so it will do him well.

Nellie has been doing amazingly, shes really lapping up post rescue life and has settled well!

Theres a lot riding on this bond to work as if they don’t bond we dont get to keep Nellie, per the rescues policy to promote pairings in all their buns.

[GlennTheLionhead]

So I may have asked this before woth Bella – ideas on bonding a very scared bun!

But this time with Nellie its different, she is petrified, she trembles in fear for the most of the session and she still doesn’t like us petting her so I don’t think she gets any comfort in that either.

The only time she relaxed was during an earlier session weeks ago where I hid out of sight from her… Not really ideal as im not technically in the room but can reach them in a couple of seconds if things were to escalate.

Glenn is super mounty and wont stop even when shes crying and running away… She needs to give him a good little nip really to set some boundaries but shes yet to do that.

I don’t really have a larger space for them to bond in though thats neutral to give her space to run away. Poor girl is just terrified.. Its hard to even end the session on a good note when shes just shaking in fear 🙁

Any ideas or suggestions based on this situation would be appreciated! Glenn is pretty un-phased.

[DanaNM]

Awww poor Nellie!

I think I would just take things slow and keep sessions short at first. Don’t worry about petting her but you can prevent Glenn from chasing her when she tries to move away from the mounting. The mounting may calm down on its own after a few more sessions.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

Hopefully a bit of exposure therapy will help her, poor girl. She’s such a soft soul and Glenn is just entirely too much when bonding lol. I try and limit his mounting but he’s a bit frenzied at the moment, it was pretty much all he wanted to do during the last session… Hopefully he relaxes more today.

Do you happen to know of any ways to try and end on a good note given the above?

[DanaNM]

In this case a good note would be something like ignoring each other or at least a pause in the mounting.

I wonder if you could give Glenn a stuffy that smelled like her to help him get some of the mounting out of his system?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

Ooh a stuffy for him is a great idea. I will be trying that one.

Interesting session today, no mounting what so ever which was odd, they just stared eachother out most the session, napped and self groomed a little then Nellie gave Glenn a big groom on his head for about 10 straight minutes and he reciprocated after with a couple of ear licks.

She did nip him in retaliation of the persistent mounting yesterday finally which may have helped him not to mount this session.

Strange how session to session can just be so different!

[DanaNM]

Wow that sounds like a really great date!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

So overall its been about a week of bonding and things seems to be going okay. They are generally becoming more relaxed in eachothers presence and are now both flopping, grooming themselves, eating hay together, usually seperate piles at the moment but at the same time.

One thing giving cause for concern –

Glenn is still trying to mount Nellie here and there, which is normal of course but for today’s session we’ve tried to go a bit longer as Nellie seems to settle down after about 30 – 40 mins so longer sessions are working a bit better for her. The first 20 minutes or so Glenn just kept mounting till she nipped him a couple times and then for the following 3 hours it was pretty much harmony, like flopping, hay sharing etc but they don’t spend a lot of time interacting but when they do its initiated by Glenn maybe attempting a mount, she will run and he stops. Sometimes Nellie will nip him a little then run and other times she grunts, nips and then runs away.

But now when he presents for grooms she nips his head till he leaves or I stop the interaction- not at the start but after a couple hours.

Whats concerned me is the grunt and nip? Should I be worried that this might mean shes no longer interested in him or is this just her becoming more and more sick of his advances and just telling him that but nothing to be too concerned of yet?

She doesn’t pursue him to fight or nip if he just walks past/eats close, but she also doesn’t try and interact with him.

Thanks!

[GlennTheLionhead]

Bonding photo dump from today. Also one of Nellie’s face after eating some choppy hay 😂

[DanaNM]

I wouldn’t be concerned about the grunt and nip thing. She’s telling him “why the heck would I groom you when all you have done is tried to mount me”!  There are often some ups and downs as they sort things out. I’ve had a few bonds where the male is all crazy in the beginning, the female fends off his advances, and he eventually gets the message and calms down. Her not interacting with him is sending him a message as well that he needs to try a different approach.

They’ll get there, patience is key!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

We have resumed bonding now I’m back from my travels! We have some interesting behaviours.. Opinions?

Digging at and biting holes in the ‘bonding blankets i.e flooring’ – maybe just a kind if anxiety behaviour from the bonding stress.

We’ve had LOTS of grooming from Nellie x2 seperate 10 min head grooms she gave Glenn in todays session (still ongoing). But when she asked for kisses glenn refused so she started pulling fur from his cheeks, stopped asked again, he rufused so she pulled another chunck of cheek fur and this repeated a couple of times till I decided to change up the vibe and distract them so things didn’t escalate. He just stayed therr and took it though bless him. Shes acting very submissive but then dominant? Or maybe shes just saying hey! My turn now, only fair.

 

[DanaNM]

My vote is the last idea, “Ok my turn now!”. I think it’s good you stopped the cheek fur pulling, face nipping always makes me nervous.

I think I read somewhere that digging a scrape can be a way of marking territory, so that could be why you are seeing the digging at the blankets.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

Thats makes sense about the blankets actually because they both cliamed the blanket they dug at! Yes the face nipping put me on edge a bit too.

Today’s session has so far been great, they’ve turned a corner and have been mirroring sharing hay piles but also have times when one is flopped while the other eats, so no one seems to be territorial over the hay piles!

They are even drinking out of the water bowl at the same time LOL! Nellie seemed to copy glenn on that one.

We’ve had a couple superflops too! Glenn has done a tiny bit of grooming to Nellie now but its still mostly her grooming him… But the nipping and mounting are really minimal, we’ve had one mount attempt from Glenn in the last 3 hour session and two nips from Nellie, one was to tell him off for mounting and the other was when she groomed him so much but he again wasn’t returning the favour and just begging for more grooms…. Hes pretty greedy!

All in all we’ve only had 9 sessions but they seem to be (tentatively) hitting it off. Fingers crossed for a bonding breakthrough soon!

[GlennTheLionhead]

Things just keep getting better! They’ve spent the last 6 hours munching and sleeping together, cuddling up and some bouts of 1 sided grooming. They even played together a little (wreaking havoc) and are sharing a (new) litter box together.

We’ve had one bicker today and that was when they were snuggled up together, side by side for about 30 mins and out of nowhere Glenn woke up suddenly, thumped and started mounting Nellie – Nellie was in a super deep sleep and she really didn’t enjoy this, she gave him a big nip and ran away, I had to pet glenn for a few moments to stop him going back and then after Nellies grump for about 15 mins (she just hid) things went back to cuddles and harmony again.

We are still going strong on our marathon but they’ve now retreated to opposite ends of the pen for some alone sleeping time. I would imagine interactions will start up again in the next couple hours (currently its 6.34 pm here)

Call me crazy but they are displaying a lot of the signs of the cementing phase… We just need Glenn to reciprocate the grooms! He does seek her out for cuddles though

[GlennTheLionhead]

Is there an alternative to the 48hrs in neutral to cement?

So here is the reasoning behind that seemingly obscene question lol! They seem pretty much bonded! See below for details. However, I don’t have a 48hrs together for 3 weeks! It seems almost cruel to keep seperating them every night and day for. The planned bonding time line went way out the window months ago when they both got ill one after the other… Hence the ad hoc nature of their bonding experience.

Thanks to a train strike I cant get to work tomorrow and could finish today at about mid afternoon. I could set them up today say 3 pm ish till Thursday morning at like 10/11 am. So at best it would be like 40 hours but then if I put them together I have no time to monitor them till I get back from work. I am free again for the day this Sunday.

Any suggestions?

Additional info on their behaviour if needed:

We marathoned on the weekend and then they spend all of yesterday evening after work together. They are really acting like newly weds now. Nellie grooms him mkst times he requests, whsn she refuses he accepts and moves on, she also no longer face nips him, maybe once in the whole marathon and last night cumulatively and he has now learnt to move away from her. Mounting is almost non existant, i think there was one attemp sunday. Other than this they snuggle together a lot, share food, share lettuce. Otherwise are harmonious.

Im thinking this suggests they are pretty much bonded, no negative behaviours that aren’t seen occasionally in bonded couples.

 

[DanaNM]

Awww they look great! Amazing! I love when they just “click” like that. 🙂

So, what you could do is do a couple more long sessions (including overnights ideally), and if those go well then you could move them in together but keep them in their neutral space. Then they could be unsupervised there for a couple days. Then you can test the waters and move them to their final home and see how they do. If they do well, keep them there and be sure to supervise for their first overnight session. If that goes well, you can either move them back to the neutral spot while you aren’t home, or if your gut is telling you they are solid you can leave them there. My sense of the 48 hour goal is that you want them to experience a range of scenarios to make sure they are good in all of those scenarios: excitement over food, maybe one gets startled by a loud noise, litter box sharing, middle of the night zoomies, etc. If they seem good through all types of scenarios then it usually means you are in good shape!

My first pair I did 2 overnights in semi-neutral (not a marathon), and then I moved them to their final home and supervised that first night. They were acting SUPER solid so I felt OK leaving them. This was after 3+ months of bonding where they were fighting horribly at first, so when they finally “clicked” it was super obvious and they were “suddenly” madly in love. Most important is to trust your gut. If there is any lingering tension between them or you have any doubts about whether they are bonded, then they need more time.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

Hey. Sorry theres been a delay on the update, busy week!

They are BONDED! 

I followed the advice you gave above! It was helpful to know it worked for you that way. I ended up moving them to semi neutral and we done 3 over nights and long days, short seperatations for work ect. Luckily my partner had some time off and felt comfortable watching them together without me. We then moved them in together on the weekend just gone 😊

After only about 2 weeks of actual dates cumulatively they have bonded! Which was a nice change from my last 2 bonds that took months!

The last couple days they have actually groomed eachother much less than before, this could also partly be that were not seeing it as they are alone together now ect, they mostly choose to stay in their room so we only see them when we actively interact with them, which usually excites amd disturbs them anyway, or if they pop into the lounge to say hello or ask for a treat). They do lay with eachother and are with eachother most of the time though, but not always cuddling. So they seem happy now but just building the affection still. Which is a little weird because they were super affectionate in the last few bonding sessions.

They are a bit greedy with food now but they don’t fight, they just get a little competitive trying to eat everything they can and steal the others food.

Thanks again for everyones help and support! x

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Whoop! That does bring happy tears to my eyes! Congratulations!

🕊🐰❤️🐰🕊

[DanaNM]

That’s wonderful!! Congrats!!!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[GlennTheLionhead]

Just an update of a few photos of the cute couple chowing down on forage.  They are getting on so well with lots of cuddles!

[GlennTheLionhead]

Update photos of the newlyweds pending,  they are currently cuddled and have been getting on very well <3

[DanaNM]

Awwww they look great together! Congrats to the happy couple!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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