Freya & Tybalt Bonding Journal

[talesOfTybalt]

Spay/Neuter
Are your bunnies spayed/neutered? Both bunnies are spayed/neutered.
If so, for how long (for each)? Tybalt for 2 years and Freya around 1 month.
If not, why not?
Are you aware of reproductive cancer risk in females? If not, please read about it here.

Housing
Please describe your bunnies’ current housing set-up (living together, as neighbors, etc.).

Tyb was free roam in my bedroom with an xpen as his home base. Freya in another bedroom also with an xpen as her home base.

Bonding background
Did you allow the bunnies to “settle-in”? We’ve had Freya since March, she is around 7/8 months old and I’ve had Tyb for over 2 years.
How would you describe your bunnies reactions towards each other (answer for each bunny): shy, scared, curious, calm, aggressive, excited, affectionate, etc.? Tybalt is super calm, relaxed and unbothered, will occasionally go and sniff her and show interest but for the most part simply ignores her. Freya is very curious and weary of Tybalt, shows a fair bit of aggression and is always super alert and aware of his presence.
Have you done any “pre-bonding” (cage or litter box swaps, etc.)? Have been prebonding for about 3 weeks now – cage swaps every 2 days for this whole period.
If so, for how long?
Have you started sessions yet?
How long have you been working on bonding your bunnies?
How frequently do you have bonding sessions, and how long are they?
Have you tried any stressing techniques?

So I figured I might as well start documenting the bonding journey esp bc I am super nervous on starting!

I’m unsure if they are ready for a bonding date or not bc Tyb is literally the chillest thing every around her but Freya is very hard to read. She does seem to get agitated by him and follows his movements carefully, she’ll try and lunge through the cage at him but she also flops right up against his pen and will groom herself and play happily so I’m not sure what to make of her behaviour. She was a lot more aggressive in the first week of prebonding, I only noticed her calm down and show a little more indifference in the 2nd week and it’s been the same since

[DanaNM]

Woo hoo!

I would do a bit more wee bit pre-bonding to see if that lunging behavior calms down a bit! Flopping against the pen is kind of a mixed signal, because it can be seen as relaxed behavior, as well as a “look how much I don’t care about you” type of behavior.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[talesOfTybalt]

Thanks Dana – She’s so unpredictable and hard to read sometimes! I’ll definitely continue w just prebonding for now.

Do you think it makes a big difference how the pens are set up? Rather than parallel side by side, they are sort of perpendicular? So the cages meet at the corner where they eat and their litter boxes are at opposite ends furthest away from each other. I only set it up this way due to lack of space but maybe having them side by side will force her to be nearer to him and give me a better reading on how she’s feeling…

[DanaNM]

I would put the litter boxes at the edges closest together, since they spend so much time in them! Could you possibly have a bit more of the pens share walls? Ideally they could be fed near each other AND have the litter boxes near each other, but I would say if you had to pick one, go with the litter boxes.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[talesOfTybalt]

So I managed to get some help in moving furniture around and they are now side by side – I’ve mirrored the pens so the litterboxes are at the same end and they can eat together at the other end. She was hesitant at first and followed his movements the first few hours but it’s been 3 days now and I haven’t seen her lunge or growl once!

I’m going to give it a couple more days and maybe wait for this heatwave to calm down and if this behaviour continues I might try a short date!

[DanaNM]

That sounds like great progress!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[talesOfTybalt]

this is just me fretting about the coming months – im going to be away for a week at the end of august and ideally they would have been bonded by then which gives me 5 weeks from now but i definitely dont want to rush or force anything on them so IF they are not then i need to plan their housing accordingly.

I have family that can take in Freya (they already have a free roam bun but will separate a room for her for that week) and i’ve found a boarder to take in Tyb who also has other animals.

My worry is that if I start bonding sessions and then take that weeks break where they are both around other rabbits and in a brand new environment, am i going to have to start from scratch when i bring them both home? will it have a big impact on them? i dont want to stress them out unnecessarily so is there any point in me attempting to bond now or is a week not that big of a deal?

[DanaNM]

I would try not to worry about it! Either they will be super bonded and you’ll be comfortable leaving them, or they won’t be and you can separate them. They won’t be starting from scratch! I’ve had to do things like this before and never really noticed a big back slide in progress after little breaks here and there.

One tip (for if they are bonded by then and you end up taking them somewhere together), is to have them stay together in the carrier for at like 30 min when you arrive at the new spot. This helps them slowly get used to the new smells and can help prevent any issues with the bond. My past bun sitter (who was a lead at the rescue and has tons of buns at her house) always does this with her boarders and has never had an issue.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[talesOfTybalt]

Thanks Dana, that’s one worry out the window.

first date:

I blocked off a corner in the dining area, completely neutral to both buns. I don’t think it went very well and honestly it stressed me out so I kept it to about 10/15 mins.

they sniffed around a bit and then Freya lunged at Tyb and growled when I pushed her head away. They were exploring the area most of the time so there wasnt loads of contact between them but when there was, they would sniff each other and then Freya would just try to bite him. Tyb wasn’t reciprocating at all but I had a dustpan on hand to stop her anytime she started on him – it made him scared so he kinda kept to himself.
I tried the “bunny magic” thing and Tyb was fine with it but Freya would not sit still for a single second!

having said all this I’m not 100% sure I can tell the difference between a nip and bite from Freya bc she does “nip” us a little hard sometimes. Tyb kept flinching when she was doing it to him though.

when I put them back I swapped the pens they were in and they were completely fine and normal but I’m not really sure where to go from here :/

[DanaNM]

That honestly sounds kind of average to me! I would just keep repeating that type of date a few more times. They didn’t fight instantly, and she only really reacted when he came near her (as opposed to her seeking him out and attacking him).

Keep the dates short for now, even 5 minutes is fine. The more they interact and don’t fight, the more Freya will learn that Tyb isn’t going to attack her or try any funny business and they will start relaxing. Or maybe he WILL try some funny business and she will put him in his place. Or maybe she will decide he’s tough enough to protect her and she will let him be top bun! Only time will tell!

Sometimes with reactive buns especially it helps to have a larger space. I would keep things as is for now, but if after a few more sessions you feel things are getting worse, you can experiment with the space (larger or smaller, I usually have better luck with larger though) and see if that helps.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[talesOfTybalt]

Thanks Dana, your response was very reassuring!!

I tried again today, repeating everything exactly as I did yday however, before putting Freya in the same space I put her in the carrier and just walked around for a few mins to slightly stress her so she’s not as aggressive and I think it worked? I put her in and she took in her surroundings and they then both approached each other face to face and sniffed and moved away. They did this 3x and after each one I pet them and they both sat still while I switched hands so I could put each of their scents on the other. The 4th time they approached each other Freya sniffed his face and moved past to bite him near his shoulder area so I moved her back and pet them for a few more mins and put them back in the pens.

a couple q’s: is it okay that I’m sat in the area with them? Should I only attempt it once a day or shall I try more sessions and space them out, say morning and evening?

[DanaNM]

That sounds like an improvement! I would repeat that date a few more times before increasing the length of time.

Yes it’s definitely OK to be in the pen with them at this point. When you get to longer sessions where they need less intervention it’s good to step out of the pen, but for now it’s best to be right in there with them so you can intervene really quickly when needed.

If you have time, you can do 2 short sessions per day, as long as they aren’t seeming overly stressed by it. I often do two a day when the sessions are really short.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[talesOfTybalt]

Not loads to report on but thought I’d give an update regardless!

I had to unfortunately relocate back to the upstairs area so they are both in my room in side by side pens and our new neutral territory is the bathroom. The dates were stressing everyone out a bit (humans included) so instead I’ve been working on table bonding for the past week or so to try and desensitise her a bit. They both get put in the bathtub and we pet them for about 15 mins 1 or 2x a day – I think it’s been working because Freya used to freak out and take ages to relax and settle down but now when I push their bodies together she calms down quicker and the last few days she’s even been (I think) trying to snuggle back with Tyb. Taking it all suuuuper slow so this weekend I will let go and see how they react to each other.

In the meantime here’s them in the tub snuggling! I love that Freya’s ears are about the length of Tyb’s body hahah

[DanaNM]

That looks very positive to me! And sounds like a great plan!

Side note, I think Freya’s ears alone are as big as Tyb! 😀

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[talesOfTybalt]

Hi again! So Freya and Tybalt are currently with a bonder who I’m really hoping (fingers crossed) can finish them up for me! In the meantime, i want to make their settling back in as smooth as possible so I’m wondering what I need to sort out at home.
They both have these big wooden hidey houses each – can I use them in their new pen set up or do I get rid of them? I’m getting a brand new litterbox, blankets, toys etc.
I want to be extra cautious so what constitutes a ‘semi neutral’ space? They both used to live in the living room when I was pre bonding so they’ve had equal time in there, would this work?
Also space – do I start their space out small and expand if things are going well? How often do I expand? When do I know they are ready for their final space in my room?
Is rearranging the pen setup good enough? As I don’t think I’ll be able to rearrange my whole room 
Should I wait to introduce toys? I’ve bought all brand new ones for them but when do I give them to them?
Tybalt has crazy tunnel vision when it comes to food so how do I feed them together? He will for sure wolf his own food down and start eating Freya’s 🙂
Otherwise any tips or things to expect when they’re back would be greatly appreciated!! If you can’t tell I’m extremely nervous 🙂

[DanaNM]

haha! All good questions!

Semi-neutral (in my mind at least) is somewhere within smell or sight of their home turf, but not within the old home territory. I have on occasion had to skip the “semi-neutral” zone and just did my best to neutralize their final home as much as possible. One time I did the semi-neutral thing I used my kitchen, and then when they were done with their 2 days there I just opened the gate and let them run to their final home. I had zero issues.

I would remove any hides for now, but you can reintroduce them later. Cardboard boxes are nice temporary hides when you need something neutral.

I usually start out with an x-pen sized set-up (or maybe two x-pens since Freya is so big!) with all new stuff, as you mentioned. If the space is maybe less neutral than you’d like, you can hang some blankets on the walls to block their view of the room, and then gradually remove them as they settle in.

As for the pen, I like to set things up in a mirror image of how they were in their homes before (if possible). Don’t worry about your room! But I do like to clean the floors really well. If you have carpet you can sprinkle baking soda around and then vacuum it up. Idk if it’s 100% necessary but I used to do it as a precaution when I had carpets.

Yes you can give them toys, just make sure they are new! You can reintroduce old stuff gradually once they are cemented, so you don’t have to throw it all away. For any hides make sure they have at least 2 exits so they don’t get cornered.

Don’t worry about feeding, most buns have a tendency to eat faster when they realize they have to! I’m sure Freya will get what she needs. 🙂 I usually feed salads in 1 bowl that they share, and I scatter feed pellets.

I have only had a problem with this final step once, and it resolved itself after a day or so of monitoring, so I’m sure they will do great!

As for how much space to give, I usually keep them confined to their enclosure for a day or 2, and then will let them out to exercise as usual. If you notice some tension you can restrict the space a bit (so they get to exercise in a larger pen but not in the whole room). I know some people have issues with giving too much space right away, but I think this is more common when people do small space bonding. I usually bond in larger spaces and haven’t really had any problems with giving them free-roam time after a couple days.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[talesOfTybalt]

Thanks so much Dana! Unfortunately the bonder messaged me today saying she doesn’t think she can bond them, they were fighting a lot 🙁

No injuries but I don’t feel ready to give up yet especially because although it’s been slow progress, yesterday they managed to share the same space for 4 hours and Freya even went to Tyb’s side of the cage to steal his food and run back a couple times. The bonder said that today Tybalt bit her when she went to separate them and he jumped on to Freya’s back but he could possibly just have been trying to mount her? I can imagine Freya wouldn’t let that happen at least this early on.

im bringing them back home on Saturday morning but wondering what my next steps should be? Should I give them a weeks break or so and then try again?

[DanaNM]

Aw that’s a bummer! I wonder what techniques the bonder is trying? It would be good to get some info on what her strategy is.

I’ve just quickly skimmed back through your thread, my memory is that you were making some progress with them during shorter dates at home? If that’s the case then I would go back to that strategy! Sometimes bunnies just aren’t ready for marathoning, which is what bonders will typically do. I find with my own bonding that very large spaces and a change of scenery can work wonders. I see you were doing dates at home in the summer, and then just recently sent them to the bonders. Were you dating them that whole time or did you take a break?

In general for really tough bonds, patience is the most important thing. Sometimes doing a longer pre-bonding period helps. I’ve also noticed my longest, toughest bonds ended up SUPER closely bonded when they finally decided they loved each other. My longest bond took about 4 months of actual sessions daily (that was Bun Jovi and Bertha).

So if you aren’t ready to give up, then you definitely don’t have to, as long as you are keeping an eye on the buns’ stress levels and they are handling it all OK. I’d be interested to hear a bit more about the behaviors that lead to fighting. For example, when I decided to stop trying to bond my quad it was because Bun Jovi and Cooper were fighting badly. Bun Jovi was relentless about trying to mount Cooper and just would not give up. Cooper finally started attacking him in response but Bun still wouldn’t back down. In that case, I was worried for Bun Jovi’s health (poor old man was going to give himself a heart attack) and Cooper was biting him back hard, so I decided it wasn’t worth it and probably was not a good match.

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[talesOfTybalt]

The bonder was doing smaller space bonding and I feel like my two just can’t handle that however in my own home I’m struggling with finding a large neutral space for them. I can try my bathroom floor (though it’s not v big) and see how that goes down? I’d only done bathtub sessions with “bunny magic” in the summer and while I’ve been prebonding since, I haven’t had daily dates.

I will ask for all the details when I go to pick them up but I don’t feel like the fight could have been so bad that they are unbondable as 1) she jumped in before any actual injury was caused to either bun, 2) they could have had enough of the small space and 3) I know bonding is hardly ever a happy path journey, there will be setbacks majority of the time which is why I think I want to have a proper go myself as I can take it as slowly as possible.

every night she kept them separate and then during the day she would put them in a pen with a door in the middle and she’d open that and let them be together – if they started scuffling she would close that door so they can’t get to each other. The longest they managed to go was around 4 hours yesterday which is a big deal for Freya and then today the bonder messaged saying they’ve been trying to fight too much. Luckily they’ve been settled and have been eating and drinking well so I know they’re not overly stressed out! The scuffling would only last a few seconds and they’d stop on their own.

can I ask how big a ‘very large space’ was for your bonding sessions? i can try and see if I can stay over at a friends with the buns for a week or two and maybe that could work?

not sure at all what lead to randomly fighting today but all these days Tyb’s been gently trying to approach her and Freya would lunge and then back off. She’d always cause the scuffle but Tyb always leaves her be if she starts getting feisty, poor guy. I think today his patience ran a little thin and he decided to fight back for once!

[DanaNM]

That’s a very interesting method! I’m a bit surprised she would separate them when they scuffled. That is basically teaching them that fighting will make the other rabbit go away, so it could have been reinforcing the scuffling. Everyone has their own ways of bonding so to each their own, but that’s not the way I would do it!

I think you should give the large space a shot. With how large Freya is, I would try for at least 2 or even 3 x-pens linked up! The idea is it gives them a bit more space to chase it out and lets them move more freely without constantly feeling threatened by the other (thinking about Freya lunging at him constantly). I think asking a friend is a great idea… depending on the climate you are in a garage or basement could work, or a kitchen if they don’t mind you taking over for a bit. I also think your bathroom floor is good to try as well. You could do a combo of sessions in your bathroom floor, and then sessions at a friend’s house when you can. The car rides together to the friend’s house could also be helpful! I did a lot of bonding at my friends’ house when I lived in a small apartment and my friends got a lot of entertainment out of it. 🙂

If scuffling only lasted a few seconds and then they stopped on their own, that’s a very good sign. And yes sometimes when one bun finally decides to fight back it’s actually a turning point for the better. Sometimes things get worse before they improve. It sounds like Tybalt has been trying to tentatively mount and Freya has been retaliating. That might be a good thing, as it shows Freya that he’s strong enough to be top bun! Freya honestly sounds a lot like how my big bunny Bertha was in bonding. Can’t judge a woman who knows what she wants! LOL It can be frustrating but it really doesn’t sound like they hate each other, they are just being stubborn!

 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[talesOfTybalt]

The only neutral space I have right now is about 1.5 xpen worth of bathroom floor space, definitely no more than 2. I think my options are either I ask my friend to use her place – everywhere would be neutral but space wise realistically it would have to be her guest bathroom OR, my grandma will be away for 6 months at the beginning of January so I could tidy up her bedroom and use that space? With a large space would I still be doing ‘bonding dates’ everyday and then returning them to their pens? If I do my friends bathroom, I’d be staying with her rather than travelling everyday so I’d need a home set up for them there AND a bonding space set up. I could maybe start out with my bathroom floor and see how they react.

im prepared for things to get worse before they get better and I agree I was very happy that they could stop scuffling on their own. Freya would always go to Tyb in attack mode and he would just sit still so she’d back off and do her own thing again. They’ve never had injuries or a bunny tornado so I just can’t give up on them so soon.

Ahh Bertha LOL what big personality’d girls! Who ended up being top bun with Bertha and Bun Jovi? I know I shouldn’t project who I think it will or should be but I am curious bc neither of mine have shown any submissive behaviour EVER.

[DanaNM]

So, Bertha was bonded with 3 dif buns in her life (poor gal was widowed a few times). First was Bunston (the little brown buy in my avatar). They were my first pair I bonded and it was ROUGH. I almost gave up several times. Bunston was a very feisty little guy (had some dwarf in him for sure) but was also very afraid of her. She ended up being top but basically through her refusing to do anything until he groomed her. Then they “suddenly” clicked and were madly in love. I say suddenly in quotes because it was after 3 months of daily sessions where they would fight instantly at first.

Her bond with Moose was a bit easier but they were never as close. Moose had lived with other buns before so I think he was just more able to communicate, but sadly he passed away suddenly after they had only been together about 6 months.

Bun Jovi and Bertha were also a very tough bond, but it was a very different dynamic than with Bunston. They didn’t fight right away, and would be seemingly fine for hours and then would start scuffling when Bun tried to mount. I actually wrote a blog post about their bonding experience for the rescue in my town: https://bunssb.org/bunnies/bonding-two-stubborn-senior-buns

In that bond Bertha was more submissive, I was so surprised! She almost never groomed Bunston but Bun Jovi finally convinced her to groom him. They were also VERY closely bonded.

I do agree it’s usually best to not worry too much about who will be dominant. In all of my pairs, both buns would show some dominant behaviors once bonded, so I sometimes think they both think they are top bun. :p

There are multiple ways you could go about bonding in the other locations. I’m a fan of starting with the easiest thing first, which would be to start with some daily dates in your bathroom, even if they are shorter. 1.5 x-pens isn’t too tiny, so I think it’s worth a shot (I usually like to block the area under the toilet for bathroom dating because sometimes they will get cornered back there).  Not sure how far away your friend’s house is, but I think it would make more sense to drive there for the dates and then drive home (having them ride in the same carrier in the car ride together will also help things). If that’s feasible, you could plan to do bathroom dates at your house during the week, then over the weekend take them to your friend’s house for some longer sessions during the day.

If all of that seems to be going OK (as in, they aren’t just fighting viciously immediately or getting worse and worse over time), then I would start to plan for some really long sessions that include an overnight, potentially even a marathon at your friend’s house or grandma’s house. In the past I’ve timed marathoning so I start on Friday after work and then camp out with the buns over the weekend. Usually within the first 24 hours I know if it’s going to work out. If things are going well after 24 hours I keep going and then they are usually bonded by Monday (but still need cementing and transitioning to home). 🙂

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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