Fred & George – Back to Bonding

[KaterH]

Spay/Neuter
Are your bunnies spayed/neutered? Yes; both male
If so, for how long (for each)? I’m not entirely sure, as they were adopted, but I believe for a year at least

Housing
Please describe your bunnies’ current housing set-up (living together, as neighbors, etc.).

They were living together, between Oct and early Dec, from the time we adopted them, in a large space that comprised of a 6×5 ft pen, our kitchen, and another large area by our doorway (about 7-8×3 ft). They’re now living side by side, with a barrier they can see one another through but with no direct access.

Bonding background
Did you allow the bunnies to “settle-in”?For the first weekend we had them, they had only the smaller pen. Then, we opened the kitchen to both at the same time, as they seemed quite comfortable (even with our dogs around).

How would you describe your bunnies reactions towards each other (answer for each bunny): shy, scared, curious, calm, aggressive, excited, affectionate, etc.?r

Fred = randomly defensive; likely leading the handful of fights they had. Before the latest bout that led to their separation, he started to show some food aggression and that was new.

Have you done any “pre-bonding” (cage or litter box swaps, etc.)? Yes
If so, for how long? For the week that they’ve been in their adjacent enclosures, I’ve been swapping boxes, blankets and toys. I tried swapping the bunnies but Fred gets more nervous in the kitchen space while George seems to prefer it, and that’s one of the areas we have to use.

Have you started sessions yet? Yes
How long have you been working on bonding your bunnies? While we did have a rebonding-lite period after their first fight in Oct, that was only a few days. This time, it’s been a week, with two quick bathroom sessions last Sunday/Monday that weren’t great, and one today (using a barrier).
How frequently do you have bonding sessions, and how long are they? #1 and #2 were 30 min. #3 has been one hour.
Have you tried any stressing techniques? No. No car and Fred is very anxious. Stress seems to incite fighting; we think their move to a new home partially broke vs. cemented their bond.

Okay, so I know some of you will recall that my husband and I adopted a pair of boy buns (1.5 yrs old and litter mates) in Oct. Short story = they were fine for 4 days, had a big, hair-pulling fight and then we attempted rebonding after one day apart. It was smooth with no tension, so they got their space back. Then, they fought every two weeks after, seemingly without an obvious motive. Each time, we gave them a small break, brought them together again and monitored, and things were totally calm.

About a week ago, though, they had two big fights only three hours apart, and we did notice some mild food aggression from Fred (dominant one) a day or so prior. They were also nudging one another out of favourite lounge spots.

They have lots of room, hay and food, and we’re just not sure what was causing such random and intense but regular fur-pulling fights, despite lots of cuddling, joint eating and even grooming otherwise…

Could the foster have normalized this pattern, as she mentioned it after we had them home?

Anyway, pic here of them laying “together” this session. I think this is positive?? But it’s been so mixed since they came home with us.

[KaterH]

Just to clarify two points, our dogs are not directly around the rabbits. Their enclosure has barriers, and the kitchen and extra area are gated off from the dogs. So the rabbits can see/hear them, but no direct access.

And I forgot to list George’s temperament. He’s very hyper and unihibited around Fred, and the food aggression didn’t scare him off. He would cuddle and groom, but also seemed to taunt/bug Fred sometimes through poking him. We did wonder if he started to vy for dominance.

[DanaNM]

Thanks for using the template!

Hmmm, this is a really tricky one. (Also FYI I wouldn’t consider a session where they are separated by a barrier as a bonding session, but it does count as pre-bonding). Laying near the barrier is good, but some people also read it as a border-guarding behavior, so I tend to think of it as more neutral.

The thing that jumps out to me throughout your post is that Fred is a more anxious bun. That could lead to him not necessarily asserting dominance during the bonding sessions, but then having these bursts of it once he gets more settled. The periodic nature of things is tricky, because most bonders assume the buns are bonded when they’ve been happy together a few days.

In the times that were good between them, did you see mutual grooming requests and grooming? Did they share a litter box OK? Also have you noticed any behaviors that trigger fights in the past? Maybe an un-met grooming request?

Since it’s only been a week since the big fights, I think they would benefit from a longer cooling off period, and possibly a complete “reset” of things. Given their history I agree that they might have gotten stuck in a pattern of behavior. Bunnies can hold grudges, so sometimes letting them forget each other for a while can help. There is not guarantee that this will work, but I think I would help to completely separate them so they aren’t side by side, and just let them chill for 3-4 weeks. If that’s not possible, the current housing situation is OK, but don’t do side swaps or any pre-bonding (and you could hang a towel to block their view of each other). Keep an eye on them to make sure they don’t get depressed with this arrangement.

My thinking is that it would probably help Fred to relax a bit to have things be less stressful. Then after that time period, go back to pre-bonding for a couple weeks before restarting bonding sessions.

I think when one bun is nervous or anxious it helps to take things slowly in bonding. Sometimes in marathon-type bonding the nervous bun will just kind of go along with things, but then problems happen later (I think this is prob what happened in your case).

All of that said, it’s sadly possible that their bond won’t be fixable. I also know of some buns who never fully live together, but are happy together during supervised play time.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[KaterH]

Thanks for the quick response, @dananm 🙂

I’m happy to know it’s not just me who finds it tricky haha I’ve been wondering if I’m overthinking things!

In the good times, they seemed to do all the right things. While there were some brief grooming wars, George would groom Fred 99% of the time and there was some reciprocation, too. The only issue was George would groom too aggressively at times, it seemed, annoying Fred.

They otherwise ate, slept and played together, and did share a litterbox (tho preferred to each have it one at a time).

I did notice that they’d sometimes dig toward one another, preceding instances where they’d seem tense. Where I actually saw the fights begin, they’d be head to head (often in the back enclosure) and that would turn into a fast chase plus hair flying.

It did honestly seem like every time they’d get more comfy, and us too, a fight would occur. So it’s really tough to trust them in a shared space.

I’ve been watching for depression with this separation, as we cover/reinforce the barrier at night to be safe (George is a little Houdini). There’s been some stress but they’re eating well and still flopping, and they eat face-to-face “together” well. They don’t seem overly bothered by the separation arrangement, so that’s confusing too. They kind of play “together” with toys on either side of the barrier and there are even binkies…

We can certainly try to officially close the door that’s between them and give it more time, but should I try a real/third bathroom bonding session first? I just got put off by Fred grunting and lunging a week ago, leading to the softer pre-bonding today.

[DanaNM]

This is helpful and makes sense with what I was thinking. I think with the number of fights they’ve had and the tension you described, I wouldn’t try more bonding sessions at this time. The fact that they aren’t stressed about being separated also indicates they aren’t bonded anymore.

Binkies can also be a bit of a dominance display. Like “look how much I don’t care about you” LOL.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[KaterH]

Haha okay. That makes sense about binkies. They really do seem to taunt one another at times, and I know Fred loved to flop near and against George (which was cute, but I knew from research could be an insult).

This is a frustrating situation but it is possible to have them live apart as they are now, with each getting exercise and not seeing one another. I’ll for sure keep an eye on their mental health, tho.

I really adore them both, so I guess we’ll see if a reset works… Given both of their fosters saw some issues (a point we learned post-adoption), I can’t say I’m super shocked at this assessment.

And, I mean, we previously had a solo bun that we just gave a lot of love. So we’re not unpracticed there.

[DanaNM]

I really hope you’ll be able to bond them! If not, and you are able to keep them separately, lots of bunnies will live happily as neighbors, and still get the social benefits of having another rabbit nearby. If you end up deciding they aren’t bondable, you don’t need to keep them out of sight of each other and can just keep them side by side.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[KaterH]

I really hope so too, so fingers crossed. I am off work for two weeks starting Dec. 23, so might just see how they’re acting and start some pre-bonding etc. before things get busy again in January. But I’m going to give them a bit of time with the barrier walled-off as you suggest.

They did seem a little sad/off today, so that will definitely play a part in my decision. And I know Fred has some minor overgroomed spots from either the stress of fighting and pre-bonding or of being separated (or maybe all of the above).

I’ll def do everything I can, and am trying to give them both extra love. What helped is we got a big new batch of hay today, so they each had a nice treat, followed by hay comas 🙂 Thx for all the support so far!!

[Author]

Messages