Floppy Bunny Syndrome?

[PJ'n'Me]

I was searching what could cause paralysis in rabbits and see Floppy Bunny Syndrome.  I have never seen this before and from what the videos look like, that looks like PJ.  The way his limbs are moving, well not moving and the one rabbit even had it’s front paw curled under just like PJ did.  He was said to have E.Cuniculi but it hasn’t been medically proven, he does not show any other signs of E.C besides the muscle paralysis.  I keep going back and forth in my head of what this is.  Sometimes I think it is E.C and others I’m not so sure.  Would it hurt to start giving him Vitamin E?  A lot of people have cured their buns with this method.  The Panacur hasn’t stopped any further progression of whatever this is.  He is on day 4 of the meds.. It’s worse than it has been tonight.  He is hardly getting around.  Should the medicine have stopped the E.C progression already? Could this be floppy bunny syndrome?

[Q8bunny]

I’m sorry that I know nothing about this (and lack context regarding PJ’s case in particular). But I’m bumping in the hope that another BB member will. *bump*

[Wick & Fable]

I did some reviewing of your past thread to catch up to speed – admittedly I skimmed, so I’m sorry if I get something wrong.

Based on what I’ve read, it seems PJ is being treated for EC, but it has not been medically confirmed via a blood test, which seems to never have been performed because he is not showing the classical signs of EC? I would recommend getting the blood test done, if you are in a position that you can do so, so that the differential can be made. I always like to mention that there are always exception to symptomatic patterns. Wick has regular molar spur problems, but he does not show the same symptoms (i.e. not eating, discomfort hunching…) as the large majority of rabbits do when they experience molar spur issues. Especially since EC treatment is very distinct from other medical conditions, it would be wise to get it done. As bam mentioned in an old thread, getting blood drawn is not too invasive.

Unfortunately, I do not know how effect EC medication is, so I cannot comment on the effectiveness timeline.

As for the vitamin E, I cannot find anything that says giving a supplement would be harmful. There is a good amount of information linking Vitamin E with muscle stability and balance, which would potentially be good for PJ. I know Oxbow’s Natural Science Mult-vitamin contains Vitamin E (1 IU, which is slightly less than 1mg of Vitamin E I think…). Now what is the daily recommended amount of vitamin E for rabbits…. I couldn’t really find much. There are some papers, but they involve how Vitamin E affects rabbit meat, which is certainly a topic we shall not discuss on the forums; however, this could suggest that Vitamin E fortified diets are not necessarily dangerous for rabbits. I suspect rabbits may function like humans, in that if there is excess, it’ll be excreted via urine, so perhaps purchase a supplement and see how it goes.

I do recommend calling your vet to talk a bit to see, if from a professional, there may be harm in trying.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[PJ'n'Me]

Thank you Q8bunny for bumping, it worked!!  Wick, thanks so much for taking that time to look over all of that, I know it was a lot of info.  You are exactly right with all of it.  I wanted to take him in Monday or Tuesday to get blood work.  I need to understand what is happening inside of him.  I emailed his vet last night, just waiting to hear back.  I definitely don’t want to treat him with anything else until the vet responds.  PJ is having bad days right now, mentally he is all there, eating, pooping, licking, and *trying to be spunky*, but all the limbs seem stiff and not moving when he needs them to.  With all the past health issues, digestive, his left eye stuff, the leaning that got more intense over time, does point to E.C in ways…  That is why I think he needs blood done too, I think I am loosing time by guessing, and I can tell he is NOT ready to go.  Even my sister said she feels like he’s fighting it and is trying to get better, even though he is in a weakened state.  I was going to take a trip to the pet store today, I had to pick up some Oxbow digestive support cookies, I know I seen the vitamin one there too.  Thank you for the support, great information, and suggestions.  I really needed that. 

[Bam]

I have read that people squeeze the contents of 1.vitamin E capsule into the mouth of a bunny affected with suspected floppy bunny syndrome. Wheat germ oil has a high content of vitamin E and it’s often given to horses. Buns and horses are very similar Metabolism-wise. One capsule would be enough though because vitamin E is a fat soluble vitamine, thus it’s stored in the body.

[PJ'n'Me]

Thanks Bam, I am going to buy organic high quality Vitamin E,  I’m going to look up the oil too.  He is so tiny 2lbs, I am still waiting to hear back from the doctor, but I think I am going to give it a shot.  I did buy the Oxbow vitamins today, it has 1IU like Wick said.  I think they need a lot of Vitamin E to get better… Could I give him some unflavored Pedialyte so he stays fully hydrated?  There is no added sugar or color to it, I actually drink this all the time, I don’t work in A/C, maybe he became dehydrated, that past week has been up in the 90s here.   Even though I have and air conditioner running at a set temp to keep him cooled off, but it has been tropical over in Pittsburgh.  Now I have a heater on in the room, it’s 50 out right now…. Maybe the weather and stress triggered something.. I just need to find out before it is too late.  I haven’t slept, I’m scared I will wake up and he woulnt be here..  But I’m doing medications, I want blood work, and maybe hydration and vitamin E.

[Bunny House]

I know someone posted a while back about EC symptoms but nothing was treating it.
HRS came out with a story of a new bug that actually acts like EC but it’s something totally different and in the study, they used different meds on the buns and it helped their symptoms.
I know it’s rare to catch it but it’s worth looking into.

https://rabbit.org/sarcocystis/

[PJ'n'Me]

Bunny House thank you!!! I was able to get him a vet appointment, work isn’t too happy with me right now….. As soon as I seen that picture It looks exactly like the one I shared with you guys, how its a leaning and just progressively has just gotten worse and meds did not stop any further progression.  My vet is very receptive to what I have to say and I am printing this out and bringing it in to him.  It mentioned Pittsburgh in there..  I hope this is it.  If it’s not I will be surprised OMG thank you so much. I was in tears all night just watching him trying to be a bunny and he cant.  He thankfully is mentally here still.  Thank you, I feel like I am on to something here with your help.

[Bunny House]

Awesome! It’s good when you have avet who is open to your ideas. I really hope he doesn’t have it but if he does… then you may be able to treat him and get him all better

[PJ'n'Me]

My vet is participating in the study about Sarcocystis, I believe they found three bunnys that tested positive in Pittsburgh, but he also said there is no proof that it actually exists in rabbits right now.  He gave me a prescription for Ponazuril to try, it is what they use to treat Sarcocystis but we are going to wait a few more days to see if the Panacur takes, since it is only been 6 days.  PJ still isn’t walking right, like in that video of that bunny from the link you provided me with.  We are going to do blood tests, and he told me I can give PJ Vitamin E, he said he agreed with me on that, he got an injection at the office, and I have to pick up some oil based vitamin E capsules.  He was also dehydrated so they injected saline into the back of the neck to give him some fluids.  PJ seems OK besides the impaired movements.  Thanks again for sharing that with me.  I’m not sure where to keep posting I might go back to the original EC post. I have three different ones I keep going back and forth to.  

[Bunny House]

That’s crazy he’s participating in it… I really hope he has it and he can treat him. If he continues to go down hill, I suggest immediately stopping panacur and starting the new stuff so damage that has already been done won’t continue but it’s up to you and how you feel about it.

Keep us updated❤️

[PJ'n'Me]

Bunny House, I was just going to post a discussion, tonight PJ is in terrible shape, it seems to get worse by the hour.  I need help in deciding what to do.  His poop came out in a giant clump of sticky smelly pudding like consistency.  They did give him a saline injection, don’t know if that would effects his bowels or not, but he staggered so hard into his litter box he almost ran into the wall with force and when he went to go back into his castle he collapsed.  I am scared to take him off the panacur, but he is soooo much worse even from last night.  Should I try the new medication??  I am so confused and scared.  I cant go to work and leave him to deteriorate either.  I need to make some choices right now because I cant see him making it through the week.  This has gotten so bad.  I will post a pic of the poop.  I had to wipe him after with a baby wipe after he collapsed.  I’m a mess right now and it’s hard to think straight I really need help. How long do I wait to see if he gets better, I don’t want him to suffer, this was my worst fear.  He is mentally all there, he is confused why his little legs aren’t working.  No drooling or looking out of it, maybe gazing here and there.  

[Bunny House]

No vet should ever give saline, they should give lrs for sub q fluids. He should be put on the new meds ASAP and see if it helps. If not in a day or so he really needs to go to the vet.

Can you see a different rabbit savvy vet?

[PJ'n'Me]

I’ve been to a lot of vets, and he is the best one I have found.  I’ve thought about calling around, but even the best animal hospital doesn’t have rabbit savvy vets.  Why not the saline?   Everyone always seems so scared to even touch him.  He is completely immobile today.  completely.  New medication time?  He said that tests aren’t going to determine what it is.  I’m not sure what that means. How am I supposed to do this with PJ.  He cant turn himself he cant get up at all. He just peed and pooped on the food I had sitting in there for him, just a few hours ago he was able to turn and nudge himself around.  

[PJ'n'Me]

they put syringe with saline in the back of his neck to give him hydration, should he be using something else?  I just watched a video on sub q fluids and that looked like what they did.  Does saline hurt them? I am going back tonight to discuss more options. Thankfully he is eating right now, not drinking though.  I might try to syringe some soon, but I always worry he will asperate, even though he is immobile right now he is still feisty, I’m not surprised… We need to switch the meds, I will see what he thinks.  I have a three more options here andhave to take a leave from work so.. last chance..  

[Bunny House]

Saline is only used to disenfect a wound. Lrs(lactated ringer syringe) is what is used to put fluids in a bun subq or iv.
Saline and lrs are two different things.

You should syringe feed him water so his poop won’t dry up in his cecum(that’s what happened to mine) and itl keep his tummy and tract moist as well.

I hope he gets better :/

[PJ'n'Me]

OK when we go back tonight I wil ask again what she put in him and if it was saline ill ask why they did that.  When she brought the needle over I asked her if it was saline she said yes but maybe she didn’t hear me right, and it was a lot too, it made a himp in the back of his neck.  He is doing good poops right now, but he had another soft cecotrope accident right after I put new clean towels down, and had to wipe him before it dried, those dry like cement… I am trying to give him more of the small pet select pellets but I don’t want to hurt his tummy.  I will ask for a probiotic tonight, that has helped in the past.  Do you think mold exposure could cause this reaction.  I read mold can cause neurological problems in humans.  The  house Im staying at is old and the basement has the worst odor verryyy musty wet heavy smelling, I don’t even do our laundry down there the smell gets on the clothes, BUTTT I can smell it coming up through the floor in my room like by the carpet and wall, where they meet.  I’m worried if its mold the toxic odors that can penetrate anything it seems.  I have an opportunity to move PJ to another healthier location this weekend, or keep him here, the move might cause more stress, but I feel like this place is not the best for his health.  What would you do?? I am thinking I might take the chance and move right now.  I am broker than broke but if he can breath clean air and rest.  I have a giant air purifier, but who know if they actually work. Thank you so much I cant tell you enough how much you guys help me. I am using baby wipes for sensitive skin right now to get those poops and urine off him and then I take a wet cloth and wipe it down then a dry towel, does that sound ok? Thank you again.

[Bunny House]

I think with how fragile he is right now, anything can affect him. Him smelling that mold can make it harder for him to breathe and there might be some spores in his lungs but I’m not a doctor. I would try and move him immediately so that can at least help with his breathing and make him feel less dizzy as breathing that bad mold in can be bad.

Him being dehydrated can cause dizziness too which might be affecting him, usually you need to give fluids multiple times a day for days if they aren’t drinking enough so the organs don’t dry out and shut down…. man are bunnies fragile.

Blood tests need to be done to make sure his organs are still functioning right. I wish you could come to my vet, she’d be able to help so much!

Those aren’t scented right? As long as there are like 2/3 ingredients it should be safe and yes, use a warm wet cloth and then completely dry him so he can’t get cold.

Probiotics are good for buns(no real research if it helps or not, it’s inconclusive but I know when my buns were on it, they didn’t have any issues) and might help dry up the stool. Are you force feeding him?

What exact meds is he on?

I know illnesses like this are tricky, but all rescources should be used(within financial means) He really should to be switched to the new meds, asking the vet about changing won’t help, he needs really aggressive treatment as it seems like he is going down hill. Switching to the new meds, force feed, give sub q fluids every couple of hours at home and even pain meds if he seems painful. Even giving probiotics and cerenia for nausea will help him feel a bit better.

I personally, with all my buns medical issues, I trust my vet’s opinions and they are great vets, but when momma knows there is an issue, I will switch to different meds, take them off and do my own home treatments( I know way too much about treating and meds so they know they trust me with Home care and then we’ll talk and update on what I’ve done and 99% of the time it makes them better) sometimes we have to be their advocate and do things because the vet won’t or they think they’ve done enough, and I’m a hard head haha.

You don’t want to wait around until the vet finally wants to change things up and it ends up costing your babies life. You know your baby the best and make sure you do what you need to, to prolong his life, you’re at the mercy of him and the vet.

((((PJ))))

[Wick & Fable]

I have actually read that both LRS and saline can be used for dehydration, if this makes you feel more comforted.

Sending healing vibes!

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Asriel and Bombur]

I have to disagree with asking for a change in EC meds immediately. Like I said in your other post, EC meds can sometimes take a while to work. It’s not an infection, so it’s not going to show improvement with 7 days of medicine or even 3 weeks on medicine. This is only the first week of you second round (or first?) of EC treatment. So you’re going to have to be patient because even changing the drug might not work as well as you think it will. Because EC is not curable, it is incredibly difficult to manage symptoms, especially with a bun in PJ’s state. So even if you switch to Oxibendazole, it will still take at least 2-3 weeks before you see any ounce of progress. So if this is only your first round on the medicine, be patient, then if you still see no improvement you can talk about a switch.

Your new vet honestly sounds like they’re doing as much as they can do, and there’s not much they can do differently besides make him as comfortable as possible in his current condition. Death is inevitable with EC because it can affect so many different systems in a bunny, and unfortunately, PJ seems to have been affected in every system.

[PJ'n'Me]

Wick! thank you.  Your healing vibes might be working.  PJ actually drank and he keeps poking his head out of his castle, he actually tried to walk and use his litter box, he did pee in it.  he seems less forcefully staggery if that makes sense but he did collapse still in the box.  It is day 7 of meds now, maybe they are kicking in?? Last night he was a vegetable, but he seems to be turning himself in the castle and eating trying to move around a little bit more.  I still think he needs stronger more aggressive treatments.  

Bunny House! Thank you for guiding me through this.  This other place is actually my new landlords (the apartment I am getting isn’t ready till October) studio apt in her attic she doesn’t rent out anymore but knows my situation with the fire and PJ right now.  I will be moving in a day or two.  I thought those same things about the odor. If I can smell it, I sure as heck know he can, 100x more.  I will move him to the new place. Do you think spores got into my furniture in the room? I’m not that educated with mold, it seems like people say one thing or another, no concrete answers about bringing the spores with you kinda thing, I read a few articles and seemed to go in circles with it.  I just went to the store and bought vinegar to wash our clothes when we move too.  

The wipes say unscented sensitive skin but do have aloe in it and the other one that is all natural has aloe and calendula it says.. I was going to bring them to the vets.  They are the huggies all natural it claims… That’s why I wash with plain water and cloth after to get any residue off,  I wish I could have found the seventh generation ones, but this was a quick trip and back to get water and herbs wipes for him. I know all about washing him, I had to tend to his weepy eye for a year his left eye, the side he leans constantly on, and then one day it just stopped completely, seen so many doctors for that…

I will tell the vet I want test for the organs and function also that hernia, that needs fixed and if there’s an infection or.. I have to handle him a lot now so I don’t know what pain that is causing if there is the hernia.  He needs to do this better.  I have no other vet, all the rabbit savvy vets around here aren’t that savvy, he saved my friends buns life and knew immediately  what was wrong with PJs eye that cost me over $1300 last year.  I wish I could see your vey too she sounds amazing. 

He is on 40mg of Panacur and Metacam is 2x a day .02ml.  He’s lost weight since last week.  I keep hand feeing him as much as possible.  I have a script for the Sarcocystis its called Ponazuril. What is the test called for general organ function, white blood cell counts?

You guys are amazing, I thought I knew my bunny stuff, but you guys got me beat.  Thank you, I cant tell you enough.. 

  

[Bunny House]

Spores travel in the air anywhere where there is air flow, that’s why mold can grow anywhere.

I know how you feel, I spent $5000 in two days for my past bun.
Metacam is bad for liver and kidneys for use for more than one week. They usually use it for 5 days. You can switch to tramadol which is safer for organs.

A CBC and chemistry test will show all blood and organ function.

If he’s loosing weight, he needs to be force fed to keep the weight on. If he doesn’t get enough food, he can develop a hepatic(fatty) liver since he is basically starving and so the fat travels to the liver to compensate. And he’s probably dehydrated since he’s not eating a Normal amount of food. Illnesses snowball all in the body :/

[jerseygirl]

Posted By Wick on 9/11/2018 12:59 PM

I have actually read that both LRS and saline can be used for dehydration, if this makes you feel more comforted.

Sending healing vibes!

This did come up in fairly recent thread (rabbit with myxomatosis).  The HRS mentioned Lactated ringers solution is most commonly used for subQ fluids but 0.9% saline can also be used. These are both isotonic solutions.  Not all saline is the same and other concentrations can damage tissue if given subcutaneously. I believe this is what Bunny House was cautioning about?? 

I also think it’s possible the fluids could be just referred to as “saline” for convenience, it’s possible it was LRS all along. 

PJ & Me, hopefully you’ve been able to go over it with your vet by now.  You can give SubQ fluids at home for poorly rabbits that aren’t drinking enough on their own. 

[jerseygirl]

How was he acting agood while after he passed this messy poop? Medications can cause poop to become abnormal. Not moving around as normal would also impact some on the digestive track. I do wonder if he had impacted cecum (speculation on my part) and was able to pass this and normalize again?

@Bunny House, it’s really interesting you brought up sarcocystis. Id just been emailing the other FL’s about posting a topic about it on the forum here. It’s good there is a growing awareness about it. I actually saw it mentioned again in relation to “Floppy Rabbit Syndrome”

PJ&Me, there is a now retired rabbit vet in the UK that is conducting some studies to try discern more about Floppy Rabbit Syndrome. I’ll just share this quote with you from her site, as it does cover some things you are already looking into with PJ. As you can see, it’s a bit of a blanket term, the condition having several possible causes.

The cause of FRS is unclear. Little or no scientific literature exists on the clinical presentation, pathologic changes and potential underlying processes of FRS patients. Infectious causes (Encephalitozoon cuniculi, Toxoplasma gondii, Sarcocystis cuniculi, and Clostridium botulinum), metabolic causes (hypokalaemia, vitamin E/selenium deficiency), plant toxicity and myasthenia gravis have all been put forward as potential aetiologies but there is no supporting evidence for any of these ideas. Paralysis due to trauma is another possibility. At the present time, the diagnosis of FRS is entirely based on clinical suspicion, supported by neurological examination and exclusion of other causes. Blood sampling for antibodies to Encephalitozoon cuniculi is important as this is the major differential diagnosis. Investigations are underway (see below) to see if a specific blood test for FRS is al possibility. More expensive tests such as CT/MRI scanning, cerebrospinal fluid analysis and electromyelography can also help with making a diagnosis but are not widely available. They can show another problem (e.g. a tumour or fractured spine) that could be causing the clinical signs. ~Frances Harcourt-Brown

[jerseygirl]

He is on 40mg of Panacur and Metacam is 2x a day .02ml.  He’s lost weight since last week.  I keep hand feeing him as much as possible.  I have a script for the Sarcocystis its called Ponazuril. What is the test called for general organ function, white blood cell counts?

What strength is the metacam? There is cat one 0.5mg/ml and dog one, 1.5mg/ml. Either way, 0.02ml seems like a tiny dose.  

 Has he had metacam in the past and coped on it okay? 

 
It is now know rabbits can take much higher doses of metacam (more the cats and dogs) because they metabolize it so quickly. The higher end doses would typically only be given short-term – say for post-surgery or when needed to bring down inflammation quickly. Then a rabbit may go onto a lower maintenance dose. \
This page covers all the different brand names for meloxicam and has some quotes of different doses. There is also some links to science articles testing different doses and timeframes. (A caution: these were studies using lab rabbits that were euthanised as part of the study. The links are just to the abstract of the study, so it doesn’t go into detail).

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