Fecal transplant

[Jadeo09]

Hi

My vet asked me if I had another rabbit that I could collect cecotropes from to feed to my poorly rabbit.

Has anyone ever done this successfully  as my rabbit is refusing to eat them.

 

Jade

[DanaNM]

My vet had me do this once. I mixed then into a little critical care and syringe fed them. My vet called it a “poop shake” lol

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Jadeo09]

Thanks so much that’s so helpful.

Did it help your rabbit? How many times do you have to do it ? How fast does it work?

Jade

[DanaNM]

Unfortunately it didn’t seem to help him very much, but we think he had a chronic issue due to his genetics. I also had a hard time getting cecals from my healthy rabbit, so I think we only successfully did cecal shakes once, but did poop shakes with regular poops for maybe a week?

That said, my vet would only ever do things that worked for him and were known to work (he is very scientific!) so I know it must work in some cases.

What’s going on with your bun?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Jadeo09]

Hi

Thanks for your insight and help. You give me hope which has been in short supply.

That’s sad that it didnt help your rabbit though. I’ve spoken to a few people that it didnt help.  Hopefully we will be lucky. I managed to pop them into her mouth rather than mashing them up so hopefully more of the bacteria will have still being in their protective mucus coating. We have done it twice now. But she really hates it.

Her symptoms are identical to free fecal water syndrome in horses (they also appear generally happy and not in any pain or displaying any other symptoms which is how she has seemed over the last two months). She leaks water but after her cecotropes have finished in the morning it always stops, then it restarts around tea time or even later on a good day. Some days she doesnt leak at all.

We had a stool analysis sent off and she had a fungal infection but she was given antifungals so that shouldn’t still be the issue. Though it may have depleted her gut bacteria. As she can no longer digest hay. Whenever she eats hay she leaks so much she saturates the floor. We have even had to replace the carpets it was so bad before we removed all hay from her diet  all she can manage on is readigrass. Sometimes we go over a week now with no leaking. Sadly everytime we hit a new batch of readigrass she deteriorates rapidly so we could be running out of time to find a solution. We have had to replace the carpet as it was ruined from all the leaking in the beginning. Removing her whilst we cleaned and fitted new carpets plus the smell of the new carpet and glue etc is causing her so much stress she refuses all food and water for a few days afterwards and she ends up in stasis again (she relies on her smell due to her cataracts)

Since I have stopped wearing perfume and started sleeping on the floor next to her with the lights on she has stopped bolting and running into things. So her anxiety has improved. But strong smells like the carpet glue etc that we have been unable to avoid are causing her stasis

She is on antibiotics also which may be affecting the effectiveness of the donor cecotropes. We will try again after her course has finished.

In horses worth free fecal water they have a 50 percent success rate when healthy donor poo is fed after being on a course of omeprazole to reduce stomach acid ( so more bacteria survive the stomach conditions). Though cecotropes are designed to resist stomach acid so we may have more luck.

 

Jade

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

The amount of love shining through your words is amazing, this is one lucky bun to get such dedicated loving care. I’m sorry I don’t have anything to add regarding fecal transplants, but I hope it’ll work for your little sweetie!

You mentioned that she has anxiety and problems with her eyes. That makes me think: could she benefit from massage or touch techniques? I use massages to relax our senior bun, and skin contact to make him sleep longer and deeper.

I often roll back my sleeves when he’s sitting next to me, and I wiggle my arm into his fur so we get skin contact. He loves it and can sleep for hours like this. It’s a great way to bond and to let him feel secure while asleep.

There’s some information about rabbit massage online and in booklets you can buy. I have read up on rabbit anatomy and massage techniques a bit, and apply very gentle pressure during the massage. It is enough to get knots out of his muscles though, and he even comes to ask for them. Get vet advice before starting massages, because for some conditions it’s not a good idea. Maybe it’ll help your bun 🙂

[Jadeo09]

Hi Ellie

I cant tell you how happy your message made me. It even brought a happy year to my eye. It’s been a difficult 6 months and it’s such a relief to hear that someone thinks I’m doing a good job. You are so very kind.

Thank you so much for the advice regarding the massage etc. You have such an amazing bond with your rabbit for them to sleep for that long with you. It’s beautiful to hear, I would love for my rabbit  to do that with me. I will definately look into it as I had no idea there were booklets to purchase on the subject. Googling anatomay is a really great idea too.

My rabbit does go to sleep between my bare feet whilst I rub her muscles either side of her spine at the back. As I know she has a birth defect and arthritis on her spine which causes her some discomfort. Shes been on metacam since she was 7 for her arthritis and shes 10 and a half now so I’m sure it is progressing. We have just been given gabapentin also for the pain now too.

My partner does regularly find Boo lying along my arm whilst I sleep on the floor next to her. So I suppose she does find the contact comforting. We roll towels and have a draught excluder that we have in a u shape that she falls asleep inside.

 

[DanaNM]

That sounds very different from what my bun had, and I learned something ready your post, as I had never heard of that condition. It sounds like you are really doing all you can for her.

Does your bun live with another rabbit? The other thing you can do (which is not quite as intense as feeding cecals) is crumble up regular healthy poops and scatter them over her hay/grass. I know that some recover foods also have some prebiotic properties that might help. But hopefully once she is done with her meds her gut flora can reestablish.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Jadeo09]

Hi Dana

Thanks again for your input I really appreciate it. It means a lot to me to hear that you think im doing a good job. Ive been hard on myself because everything I’m trying doesnt quite fix it.

Here is an article you may find interesting on the subject.

How to Treat Free Fecal Water

She doesnt live with another rabbit now. So we have had to get the healthy cecotropes from a donor at the local rabbit rescue.  She has done this before and knows they need to be sure they are healthy.

We drive half an hour to her home as soon as she spots them.  So we only really have a slim window of opportunity at weekends and evenings due to them needing to be fresh.

Thanks for the suggestion. I was going to ask her for some hard fecal pellets as the quantity is higher qnd palatability would mean we could get them down easier.

We are feeding benebac that I have had imported from America to the UK. My vet also recommended bio lapis which we feed on days she need the extra water and electrolytes. They both have FOS prebiotics which I am relying on to feed her new donor bacteria if all goes well. Im relieved to hear that you also think it could take time to reestablish her good bacteria. I am still hopeful we could see results from the cecotrope donation if we keep feeding the prebiotics.

Do you think the probiotics and prebiotics I’m feeding her are the best or have you had better results with others?

 

I have found this article quite interesting about ways to increase healthy bacteria.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239525064_Engineering_the_rabbit_digestive_ecosystem_to_improve_digestive_health_and_efficacy

 

 

[DanaNM]

Bene-bac is the main one I know of that’s used in rabbits, and it is used for orphaned wild cotton tails when weaning them.

It really is quite amazing how similar horses and rabbits are! Teeth, gastric issues, etc… One of our vets didn’t get formal training on rabbits, but did on horses. Then she trained with a rabbit vet at the practice and was telling me how she was like, “oh, I know all this stuff!”. It’s just in a much tinier package!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[DanaNM]

Bene-bac is the main one I know of that’s used in rabbits, and it is used for orphaned wild cotton tails when weaning them.

It really is quite amazing how similar horses and rabbits are! Teeth, gastric issues, etc… One of our vets didn’t get formal training on rabbits, but did on horses. Then she trained with a rabbit vet at the practice and was telling me how she was like, “oh, I know all this stuff!”. It’s just in a much tinier package!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Oh hey, those are familiar terms from my time as a researcher! FOS are free organic acids which are the first breakdown products of certain bacteria in the gut. We often used manure in bioreactors to research the biodegradability of waste streams.

And now that you mentioned it Dana: cows, horses and rabbits are all specialists at getting all the nutrients out of tough vegetation food. That’s why they all get upset stomachs from an influx of fast carbs: it produces a gigantic stream of FOS, and this acidifies their stomach. Ruminants have separate stomachs, and rabbits have their cecum and cecal system.

Hmmm, I need to get behind the computer to see what I can bring to the table… I know how to correct a bioreactor whose system is out of balance, what can we do with a fluffy reactor on 4 legs?

[Jadeo09]

I didn’t know FOS can cause digestive upsets. As I was using bebebac which contains FOS to feed her healthy bacteria? I may reduce the dosage and see it that helps maybe? What do you think?

 

I was also going to feed her small amount of the hay, that she cant digest, each day and increase it after each week.  In the hope that her bacteria and gut would slowly adjust to it. Similar to fibre in humans.

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

FOS themselves aren’t the problem, they are a natural part of digestion because they’re the first step in metabolisng food. They act as food for the other bacteria down the line. It becomes a problem when such a large amount of FOS is released that it can’t be metabolised quickly enough by the other bacteria. It’s why we’re not supposed to feed rabbits sugar, fatty things and simple carbs: these all release their FOS quickly.

It’s roughly comparable to people who have unbalanced diabetes and who have to closely watch the GI number of their carbs. High GI foods break down quickly, low GI foods give off their energy slowly.

I’ll have to research how the FOS system works in rabbits, so it’s way too soon to draw conclusions yet. I’d definitely hold on to the Benebac and other things your vet advised, because probiotics are meant to restore the gut flora system. I’m looking at this from a purely technical approach, and don’t have the veterinary background to advise medication. But I hope I can give some ideas when I’ve done some more reading up 🙂

TBH it came as a bit of a shock to me as well: I thought there was nothing I could help you with, until I saw the comparison with a horse’s digestive system and FOS. I really hope I’ll get some insights along the way!

 

 

[Jadeo09]

Yes the vet did say to feed small amounts so it seems less is more.

I’ll keep giving her small amounts. She doesnt seem to have major issues with gas and isnt bloated so it seems the amount is generally agreeing with her.

[Jadeo09]

It is amazing isnt it! Lots of foods and probiotics marketed for horses are the same as the rabbit versions but much better value. Herbs, hay and probiotics and even metacam!

 

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