Excess Thirst and Urination

[Kipling]

A few months ago, I noticed Buddy had been leaving circles of pee on the mats around his enclosure. At first, I thought maybe he was just having a lapse in his litter training, since he was still mostly pooping in his litter tray. But then I started to notice he was drinking a lot more than usual – where he would usually drink about 150-200ml, he was now finishing 300ml before the day was over. Since the weather had started getting hot, I chalked it up to him just being thirstier than usual. But since he was now leaving pee stains more and more, and it was starting to leave his butt wet most of the time, I took him to the vet. 

The vet examined him and said that he didn’t appear to be in any pain and his weight was healthy, but she was worried about the darkness of his urine, and put him on a course of antibiotics. We completed the treatment, but things didn’t improve, so I brought him back for a urine test, which came back completely clear. She also gave me some chlorhexidine to wash his butt with, as it was becoming pink and sore from being constantly wet (she initially thought the reason for the wetness was that Buddy was not grooming himself down there). The chlorhexidine worked a treat at cleaning his butt and relieving the pinkness, but ultimately he was still leaving big pee patches everywhere and drinkings lots. 

This brings us up to last week, when she advised I bring Buddy in for a blood test. She also managed to do another urine test while he was there. Both these tests came back clear! I asked whether it could be incontinence, so she has given Buddy some Propaline syrup to try for a week. She said if he is incontinent, we should see changes within 4-5 days. It’s been 5 days, and nothing has changed. 

I’m starting to run out of ideas for what could be wrong with him – if anything! My boyfriend thinks that perhaps it is a behavioural issue, that he simply doesn’t want to use his litter box, but I feel this is quite a random thing to happen since he has been using it happily for so long, and does still use it for poops, and occasionally uses it to pee in. 

Buddy is 5-6 years old (the previous owner didn’t know). He has been neutered, and still has a normal appetite, and poops like normal. He eats tons of hay, and 1/8th cup of nuggets with a cup of green leafy veg every day. I’m really just at a loss, with no clue of what might be wrong with him, and would appreciate any suggestions anyone has! Sorry for such a long post, this really has been an ordeal for me (though Buddy is still as happy as usual!). 

[DanaNM]

Moose did this when he had a rotten tooth. I think he was drinking a ton because his mouth hurt. Did he get a thorough dental exam? The back molars are impossible to see without anesthesia.

Sometimes with dental stuff there is only one symptom.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Wick & Fable]

I agree with Dana that dental concerns should be considered. Wick drinks much more water and will pee a lot as a result when he needs to have his teeth done.

The reason water consumption goes up with teeth problems is because water helps smooth out irritations temporarily by acting like saliva, coating everything. This is also why teeth problems produces drool, hence a wet face/mouth.

Wick’s vet has an otoscope (used to check human ears) and Wick chews on it while the vet looks into it into his mouth. You can visibly notice bubbles of excess saliva, which is a good sign it’s being produced to offset dental discomfort.

The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.

[Kipling]

A dental issue is something I hadn’t considered, thank you for the suggestions! The vet has asked I continue with the propalin until Sunday and then we can discuss further. The front teeth have been checked recently but not the back, so I will certainly bring this up. 

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

Just my 2 cents: some rabbits get a really crazy reaction when they eat parsley. Does he get parsley?

Our Breintje suddenly started to pee and drink so much that we thought he was becoming diabetic. He shot massive streams of pee through the whole length of his cage, he was like a fire hose Vet exams showed no results. Then my dad mentioned that parsley is used in herbal remedies for humans, as a way to get rid of fluids. After we stopped giving him parsley he bounced back to normal. Mentioning it on the forum here revealed that there are many other members whose buns get an extreme reaction to the herb as well.

Wishing you all the best and hope that you can find the source! Hopefully it’s something as silly as Breintjes little problem.

[Boing]

Hi Kipling,

This has always been Cincinnati’s major symptom. It’s the original one. Five years and many more symptoms later I have a diagnosis of E cuniculi. The tests to verify this definitively are very expensive. I recommend ruling out teeth and then requesting 28 days of fenbendazole, just in case.

[Kipling]

I hope it’s okay for me to update this thread – I know it’s a few months old but it’s still an ongoing problem and I thought it might be useful for anyone who, like me, spends hours combing the forums for help.

After my original post, we ruled out any dental problems and the vet suggested it might be a behaviour problem. She recommended a de-stress and calming spray called ‘Pet Remedy’ which is meant to be sprayed on the rabbit’s living quarters to reduce stress. Ongoing with this, I tried to make adjustments to Buddy’s diet such as reducing the amount of treats and pellets.

It’s been a while, and there hasn’t been much change. With the weather in the UK now starting to get cooler, Buddy has been drinking less and so there has been less frequent urine accidents but it is still an issue. I also took note of Ellie From the Netherlands suggestion because I did note that Buddy eats a lot of parsley. I stopped giving it to him all together and there has been slightly less accidents, but I’m not sure if this is coincidental. I’ll continue to cut out the parsley just in case.

This brings us to now – I called the vet in order to bring up Boing’s suggestion about the fenbendazole (in the form of Pancur Rabbit paste). She advised against this, saying that this treatment is for rabbits who have worms and probably wont do him much good. I asked her about the possibility of him having E cuniculi but she says that if he did, it wouldn’t cause a urination problem. I think I would have liked to try the fenbendazole just in case, but she was quite against it and has instead opted to contact a specialist for me.

The problem I’m facing at the moment is keeping poor Buddy clean. His rear seems very sore, and he is losing fur from this area. The chlorhexidine continues to be good at cleaning him up, but he’s still clearly uncomfortable and I just so desperately want to help him. Hopefully in a few days we will have some more ideas from the specialist, but as always I am very open to any suggestions that this community has.

[Asriel and Bombur]

I think you should get to another vet. Bombur has EC, and his major symptom is urinary related. It was actually the only thing my vet had in mind when I said his symptoms. When Bombur has a flare up he drinks twice the amount of water he usually does, AND he urinates everywhere constantly. He’s litter trained, but when a flare up happens he begins dribbling and peeing outside the box, and its quite a lot too.He ends ups needing a shave whenever he goes in cause it’s so messy and sore. We’ve been on 4 rounds of Oxibendazole for his condition.

[Bunny House]

I agree with A&B.

[Sirius&Luna]

Also agree – excess peeing is a classic sign of EC causing kidney problems.

Have you checked the RWAF list of rabbit friendly vets to see if there’s any nearby?
http://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/rabbit-care-advice/rabbit-friendly-vets/rabbit-friendly-vet-list/

You can also try sudocrem on his sore legs

[Kipling]

Thanks for your reply! I had a look at the RWAF list and sadly there are no rabbit friendly vets listed anywhere near me . I have however found another local vet who I called, and they have assured me that they have several vets who specialise in small animal treatment. I’ve transferred over to them, and have an appointment booked for Saturday. It’s a shame because our current vet was really friendly and very close, but at the end of the day I only want what’s best for Buddy. 

I’ll explain the whole ordeal to them, and fingers crossed they’ll look into the possibility of EC so we can help Buddy get better ASAP. 

Out of curiosity,  does anyone know whether, if it is EC, this should it have been flagged in the urine / blood test we had done? Or is it more complex to diagnose? 

[Kipling]

I’m really sorry to hear Bombur has been going through that. Are you seeing an improvement with the Oxibendazole? How is he getting along?

[Sirius&Luna]

EC requires a special test I believe, but it often brings up false negatives (or positives… I can’t remember which, but it’s not a very accurate test). So lots of vets will just treat for it if the symptoms are there

[Asriel and Bombur]

From my understanding when Bombur had the test done was that it’s a different test, so they wouldn’t find it in standard blood and urine work. The test for EC is a bit expensive. In USD our was $300 or around there. EC can come up as a false negative in the test, so you might still want to ask to be treated with something like Panacur to play it safe. Bombur’s numbers were in the highest tier, so he tested very positive. But if your boy isn’t as bad it may show up as a negative even if he does have it.

[Kipling]

To Sirius&Luna / Asriel and Bombur – This is good information to know, I’ll be sure to keep all this in mind when I take him in on Saturday. Thank you! 

[Kipling]

UPDATE:

Today I took Buddy in to see his new vet. I feel really confident about this new vet, they asked me all kinds of questions that the previous one hadn’t thought of and in general showed a better understanding of rabbit care.

The new vet however said he also doubted Buddy to be suffering from E. Cuniculi but was more than happy to let me do Panacur if I wished. His suggestion was to do an ultrasound test to check for any stones in the bladder, because he felt around Buddy’s bladder and thought it felt “crunchy”. It was really scary leaving Buddy alone, especially in a brand new vet who I wasn’t completely familiar with and I was so distraught all day.

We finally came to pick him up, and sure enough, the vet found several stones in the bladder. He said the next course of action would be to do surgery to remove the stones. I am absolutely panicking; I am firstly very, very worried about the risk of surgery. I understand that many rabbits simply do not wake up from a general anaesthetic. The vet emphasised that his older age contributes to this risk. Another problem is that the vet highlighted it is entirely possible (and likely) that the stones will come back. The final issue is unfortunately the cost, which is estimated to be around £750. My parents would be paying for this and are very reluctant to do so, especially since hearing the stones can return.

I really don’t know what to think. I am so terrified of the thought of surgery, but I do not want my boy to suffer. And if I DID want to go ahead with the surgery, I’d either have to spend a while convincing my parents or try and save up funds myself, which could take a while. It would be doable, if I decided to go the surgery route.

In the meantime, the vet has given me some pain medication and antibiotics for his sore butt. They also trimmed his fur down there, and gave him a good clean which I am so grateful for. On top of all this, as reluctant as I was to bring up any more issues today, I mentioned the wetness around his left eye, which even the vet thought was nothing – but it turns out he has a minor eye infection, which we now have drops for. Poor Buddy.

Overall, I would really like to hear what you would do if you were in my position. I understand that this is going to be a choice I will have to make for myself, but hearing what others have to say would really help right now.

[Boing]

I’m really sorry to hear about the stones, Kipling. Hopefully that’s all he has. Is there any kind of pellet or supplement that would dissolve the stones? My sister’s cat needed this special food and it avoided surgery and the associated risks and cost. She had the same issue. The food changed the pH of the urine and dissolved the stones and prevented new ones from forming.

E cuniculi requires a couple of specialized tests. It doesn’t show in regular blood work and the results aren’t always conclusive. It’s not a well understood thing, even by scientists. How can something be both a true parasite and a true fungus?! And why does a dewormer used longterm work?

Anyhow, I live in Ottawa, Canada. To get a diagnosis, Cincinnati’s samples were sent to Miami, Florida. That’s how specialized it can be. It doubtless contributed to the cost too. That’s why, since fenbendazole has worked miracles with Cincinnati and is relatively cheap and risk free, I suggested just asking for it.

Good luck with all of this!

[Bunny House]

Awh can you tell your parents you will pay them back? That’s what I’m doing with my mom with all my vet bills.
And surgery is always scary. Or ask for a payment plan and tell them you’re situation.

I personally would take him to surgery, I don’t know if you believe in god but whenever my buns go in I always pray and if they make it out then they are supposed to be here, if they don’t then it was their time to go, no matter the time, it was gonna happen soon and probably in a painful way. Because if you think about it, if he doesn’t go in, he might not ever pass them and it can block the hole and not allow toxins to exit and cause a possible septic bun, which could lead to death so you have two options, neither one is amazing but they need to be taken out.

Most of the time why they don’t wake up is because they are waking up and they feel a sharp pain and have a heart attack, that’s why the vets protocol for anesthesia medicine is to give a pain shot like buprenex before he goes under so it has time to start working and will sedate him even after surgery so he is foggy when waking up and won’t feel pain. You should always do a blood test before any surgery to make sure everything is working good.

So of course with a bad diet they can come back, and even a good diet, he may be genetically prone to them but you keep him off of a calcium diet and you are pretty much good to go. And like Boing said, maybe they do have some med that can try and help break them down in the mean time.

I hope the best for you and him

[Kipling]

Thanks for your reply Boing. Unfortunately, dissolving the stones through diet for a rabbit does not seem to be an option, since this can potentially take a long time. 

In regards to the E. cuniculi, it sucks that there are so many things about rabbits that we don’t fully understand (bladder stones included!). I’m definitely taking your suggestion on board, though. As soon as the stones are dealt with, de-worming will be my next action, since even if he doesn’t have worms, I don’t think it can hurt to be sure. 

 

[Kipling]

Bunny House – I think my parents would be willing to give me a loan, as you mentioned. It’s tough to pay so much, but deep down I know they will help me out since they really do love Buddy as much as I do. So at this time, money is no longer an issue, it’s just a matter of deciding on surgery. 

Now that I’ve had time to reflect and calm down, I think I’m leaning toward surgery. I’m not very religious, but I do believe that there are some things that just have to happen. Just as you said, he might be meant to be here, or it may be his “time to go”. I think I’ll have to accept that some parts of life are just out of my hands. 

Thank you for the information on anesthesia protocol, and the importance of blood testing. I’m going to see the vet about his eye next week, and I think I’m just going to ask about all the details of the surgery so I can understand it better, while doing my own research. 

Thank you for your comment, it really meant a lot to me to hear someone else’s voice in this matter. 

[Bunny House]

Let us know how it goes ❤️

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

I’m glad that you finally have some answers now, and hope that all will go well. This new vet sounds so much better! Regarding the parsley: good to read that there seem to be fewer accidents nowadays.
Wishing you and Buddy all the best!

[Author]

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