Endive vs chicory

[Wenny]

Hi guys,

Does anyone have advice on endive vs chicory greens? They’re referred differently in different countries and I’m so confused as to which is which. I want to make endive a part of my bun’s daily staple veggies but I’m not sure if those diet lists refer endive as the ones that look like dandelion greens, frisée lettuce, or the bullet shaped Belgium endive. Also, are there any other veggies that are low in calcium and oxalic acids which I can feed daily (aside from romaine and coriander)?

 

 

[Bam]

Endive is in the chicory family. It’s a big family. This group of veg is fine for rabbits. I grow the type of chicory that has blue flowers, for my bun. He gets the leaves. There are many other types of chicory, like chicore frise. One of our members in France used to feed her buns quite a lot of bullet shaped endive.

I had a bun who got fennel daily, both fennel bulb and herb fennel. I bought lots of bulb fennel when the price was good, and dried it in slices for out of season use.

 

 

 

[Ellie from The Netherlands]

The white endive is very common here in western Europe. It’s often called witlof or witloof, if you ever need more nutritional information about it. We feed it often, and it’s a handy staple because it keeps well in the fridge. It’s dirt cheap over here as well 🙂 Other things we feed often are basil, carrot tops, arugola and corn lettuce: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerianella_locusta

[Wenny]

oh really? I heard carrot tops are very high in calcium so I dont feed it often, same with argula and basil. What we call endive here is frisée lettuce (the witlof is only available in limited amounts in farmers markets, and is very expensive), is that ok to feed everyday?

[Bam]

The House Rabbit Society lists frisee lettuce as a low-oxalic staple green.

https://rabbit.org/suggested-vegetables-and-fruits-for-a-rabbit-diet/

Carrot tops are high in calcium. Some buns are sensitive to high calcium in greens, but some tolerate it well. If your bun is healthy, you can feed carrot tops now and then. The same goes for kale and black kale.

[Wenny]

Yeah I feed carrot tops and kale a few times a week and rotate them around. Thank you!

[DanaNM]

Yep, frisee/endive/chichory are all good staples.

The main thing to watch out for are veggies that are high oxalate (beet tops, chard, spinach, parsley). Many veggies that are high in calcium are also super nutritious (like carrot tops, which are also very high in vitamin A).

Dr Frances Harcourt-Brown has an article discussing veggies and calcium, I was trying to share it but for some reason it’s not loading for me. She basically argues that the water content in veggies counteracts the calcium, so she doesn’t really worry about calcium in veggies for most rabbits. There is far more calcium in hay and pellets (a small pile of hay has a buns daily calcium requirement, but they would have to eat a whole grocery bag of kale to get the same amount).

The link isn’t working for me right now but hopefully it will work for you later: https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/articles/free-food-for-rabbits/calcium-and-rabbit-food

All of that said, when I start noticing a lot of calcium in my buns urine I will switch up the veggies in the rotation.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Wenny]

Yeah the link doesn’t work for me either, but I’m pretty sure I’ve read this before. I guess I’m just being too paranoid about what veggies to feed my bun and accidentally causing bludder sludge. Thank you so much!

[Bam]

The safest thing is to rotate greens. If a bun has normal bladder function, the surplus calcium will be peed out. Rabbits are different from most other mammals in that they absorb all dietary calcium, regardless of the presence of vitamin D (In humans, dogs and most other mammals, calcium uptake from the small intestine is tighly regulated by vitamin D. Excess calcium is eliminated via the feces, not the urine).

It’s not known why some rabbits dont pee out excess calcium to a healthy extent. Som rabbits get too high blood calcium or collect surplus calcium in the bladder, where it forms crystals with oxalates. There is a correlation with old age (not surprisingly)  and also with overweight/obesity. (Correlation, as we probably all know in these covid-times, does not equal causality).

I had a rabbit who had too high blood calcium levels. He was old and rather plump. Elevated blood calcium can lead to calcification of blood vessels. Unfortunately you need to do a blood test to see the blood calcium levels. My bun did very well on a diet with little pellets and no high calcium vegs. As Frances H-B points out, the major dietary source of calcium is pellets, and some comes from grass hay. Rabbits do need quite a bit of calcium, since their teeth are growing all their lives, so cutting out calcium completely would be highly detrimental long term. (If an animal doesnt get, or isn’t capable of taking up calcium from the diet, it will quite literally extract it from its own skeleton, making the bones brittle over time. Calcium is a vital component in nerve signalling and muscular contraction).

[DanaNM]

I was reading something recently that there is also a link between EC (potentially asymptomatic to us) and issues with calcium. Since EC can damage the kidneys, it can disrupt their ability to excrete excess calcium, so it collects. I will try to find the articles and share, I thought it was very interesting.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bam]

That sounds wonderfully interesting, Dana! 😃

[DanaNM]

Here are a few things about it. EC can tend to leave scarring and pitting in the kidneys that remains when the active infection has passed:

https://rabbit.org/journal/3-2/e-cuniculi.html

Here’s another article from Dr. Harcourt Brown that mentions it, and about diseases related to calcium metabolism in general (but notice there are many problems that can arise from not enough calcium!):

https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?id=4516322&pid=11310&print=1

She doesn’t mention EC till the very end, but says:

“In rabbits, the protozoon parasite Encephalitozoon cuniculi causes kidney disease with areas of focal inflammation and fibrosis. It is common in the pet rabbit population and could predispose them to the formation of kidney stones because the inflammatory lesions within the kidney would obstruct urine flow and inflammatory cells would also act as nidi for stone formation. Because the kidney is so important in calcium regulation, kidney disease has a major effect on calcium regulation. Renal disease impairs calcium excretion while passive calcium absorption from the gut continues. A feature of chronic renal failure in some rabbits is an increase in bone density and soft tissue mineralisation, especially if blood phosphate levels are high. The bones of affected rabbits are heavy, white with a roughened surface. Despite their dense appearance the bones are brittle and prone to fracture.”

I’m not sure if it has been researched very thoroughly, but it seems like it could be important!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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