Dominance Troubles

[kendall]

Spay/Neuter
Are your bunnies spayed/neutered? Yes
If so, for how long (for each)? Both 2-3 months

Housing
Please describe your bunnies’ current housing set-up (living together, as neighbors, etc.). They have been living next to each other for about 2 months. They are also neighbors with two other bunnies.

Bonding background
Did you allow the bunnies to “settle-in”? Yes, they have both lived with me for over 2 months
How would you describe your bunnies reactions towards each other (answer for each bunny): shy, scared, curious, calm, aggressive, excited, affectionate, etc.? They are very comfortable with each other. They are very excited to see each other every time I start sessions and they are very cuddly.
Have you done any “pre-bonding” (cage or litter box swaps, etc.)? I did cage swaps for a week and they have lived next to each other for 2 months
If so, for how long?
Have you started sessions yet? I started last Thursday
How long have you been working on bonding your bunnies? I started seriously bonding them about a few weeks ago by prebonding and then sessions last Thursday
How frequently do you have bonding sessions, and how long are they? I have done sessions everyday since Thursday starting with 20 min, but they do so well that I have let them go as long as I can while I am home
Have you tried any stressing techniques? No because Theo isn’t scared/stressed by anything and Calliope is very easily stressed

They do really well together, but they are having issues with dominance. Calliope refuses to groom Theo, but DEMANDS that he grooms her. Then Calliope tried to assert dominance by humping Theo which resulted in chasing and circling, but I don’t think there was any nipping or fur pulling. Calliope did not respond, it was all Theo doing the chasing. Then Theo humped Calliope a few times which she didn’t seem to mind too much. She will occasionally groom Theo for about .002 seconds, and he will only occasionally groom her. They are just struggling to figure everything out. What should I do? Should I make their pen smaller? They are in an x-pen currently. Should I try a different location?

[DanaNM]

Since you have only been doing sessions less than a week, I would say just keep doing what you are doing and be patient. It sounds like they are communicating without fighting, so you are on the right track.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[HipHopBunny]

I agree with @DanaNM, keep doing what you are doing, and they will figure out the hierarchy. I’m curious, in previous topics you have talked about bonding all four of your buns, but now you are doing two, have you decided not to go for a quad? Are you going to do two sets of two? Whichever way you choose I am sure will go great, you know your buns and who will do good together and who won’t. 🙂 I wish you the very best of luck with the bonding.

[kendall]

When do I know they are bonded? I don’t think they are bonded yet because I still haven’t seen Calliope truly groom Theo but is that the only thing I should look for? They do everything else great, they cuddle, share food and a litter box, they can climb on top/over each other, etc. The only thing they don’t do is consistently groom each other, which I have read not every pair does. They are having standoffs every few minutes when they are active, which result in cuddles or one hopping away from the other but never any aggression. They seem like a bonded pair without the grooming. I haven’t seen any humping since my last post, but I am guessing there will be a bit more as I start to truly marathon, hopefully for the next few days. Would it be ok after a few days of great marathons to put them into their final home and let their bond develop over time even if the hierarchy isn’t fully developed? 

Side story… I just put banana on their heads and Theo smells the banana so he is running around trying to find it and he won’t ask for grooms because he is too busy so Calliope can’t be tricked into grooming him. Moral of the story…… Theo is a dits who ended up grooming it off himself.

In regards to the quad….

I am not going to do the quad at the moment because, while I worked with Rosie and Calliope, I found out they were too hard for me to bond and it would have been very time consuming and stressful for me and them. So I am going to see where my fourth bunny fits after she gets spayed. I might end up with a trio and a single, or two pairs. I hope that they will be able to see each other from their cages so they can all get bunny interaction on some level which is especially important if I do end up with a single. I don’t know if Rosie and Calliope seeing each other will mess with their bonds. I hope they can all live next to each other because who knows… maybe in a few years they will decide they like each other!!! (I can hope right 😂)

Hypothetical question for later in life…

All of the bunnies can see each other through their cage bars. Gwen goes on bunny dates with the pair and Rosie after she is all healed. The pair gets along with her better than Rosie, but both dates go well enough that either bond will work. Would you bond her with the pair or with Rosie?

Thanks for all of the help!!!!

[HipHopBunny]

@Kendall     Oh, okay, thank you for clarifying. 🙂 So you have been doing sessions for around two weeks? And pre-bonding for a week? I would say that the reactions toward each other sound normal, for they are just getting used to the other bun. I would just continue doing sessions. Cuddling is good, where there are cuddles there should be grooms, so after a few more sessions, they should start grooming, for they sound to be getting along fine, tiffs are to be expected when bonding, but they should subside as the buns get used to the other one. 🙂

Regarding putting them both in the same pen after a few marathons, I would say not, for yes it is neutral territory, and they won’t fight in the beginning, they could fight later on when it does become territory, since they didn’t have a true bond in the start.

Wishing you the very best of luck! 🙂

[kendall]

I have only been doing session for a week. They have known each other for about 2 months, but they weren’t living next to each other that whole time. There was about a week of cage swaps before I started sessions but they did live next to each other for longer than that. Hopefully that makes sense. Thanks for the advice, I will wait until they get a good bond!

[HipHopBunny]

Oh then your progress is great, cuddling in only a week of sessions is good! 🙂 Hope to hear of more improvements soon!

[DanaNM]

“When do I know they are bonded? I don’t think they are bonded yet because I still haven’t seen Calliope truly groom Theo but is that the only thing I should look for? They do everything else great, they cuddle, share food and a litter box, they can climb on top/over each other, etc. The only thing they don’t do is consistently groom each other, which I have read not every pair does. They are having standoffs every few minutes when they are active, which result in cuddles or one hopping away from the other but never any aggression. They seem like a bonded pair without the grooming. I haven’t seen any humping since my last post, but I am guessing there will be a bit more as I start to truly marathon, hopefully for the next few days. Would it be ok after a few days of great marathons to put them into their final home and let their bond develop over time even if the hierarchy isn’t fully developed? “

What do you mean by “stand-offs”? Is this just grooming requests? Or actual little tiffs? Not all pairs have reciprocal grooming, but there should be at least some grooming by one bun, and they shouldn’t get upset with each other if a grooming request isn’t met. If by “stand-off” you just mean grooming requests, if it just leads to cuddles or one hopping away, that is all good. Half the time mine just end up falling asleep with their faces smashed together LOL.

Do you have at least one bun doing some grooming? How long have your sessions been? I think you could go for some 6-8 hour sessions during the day. If those go well, start an overnight when you can supervise them for 48 hours straight at least. If that goes well (cuddling, box sharing, at least some grooming, and NO tiffs), then I would call them bonded. If you end up with a tiff or scuffle at any point in that time, restart the clock. You want at least 48 hours of positive behaviors with no negative ones. If you need to stop the marathon, don’t stress about it and just resume when you can. Trust your gut though, so if after that time you still aren’t sure, then give them more time. And then when you move them to their permanent home, you’ll want to supervise again, because sometimes the change of place can trigger some scuffles at first. You definitely want to wait till you deem them “bonded” before moving them to their permanent home and leaving them unsupervised.

“Hypothetical question for later in life…

All of the bunnies can see each other through their cage bars. Gwen goes on bunny dates with the pair and Rosie after she is all healed. The pair gets along with her better than Rosie, but both dates go well enough that either bond will work. Would you bond her with the pair or with Rosie?”

That is totally up to you. 🙂 You know them best! But if you have two pairs, then at least you don’t have a single bun all alone and everyone has a friend.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[kendall]

My version of stand-offs is just grooming requests. There has been some grooming one way but it is very minimal. They don’t get upset if the request is not met. I have been doing sessions for as long as possible for me each day and I haven’t really been timing them. I haven’t had to separate them because they fought only because of my schedule. Today they have been together for about 4 hours but they have done longer sessions. I think that they got close to 12 hours one day! By your explanation of bonded, they sound pretty much there and I just need to do a full marathon which is really exciting! I was thinking the same thing with the future pairs, hopefully Rosie will play nice 😆!

I would like to see if they would be ok in an exercise area together. Would it be ok if I put them in the “community” one that is used by all of the bunnies? or should I still keep everything neutral? If I should keep everything neutral, when could I try and introduce the community play space?

Thanks again for all of the help!

 

 

 

[DanaNM]

Sounds good. 🙂 Good luck with the longer sessions! Sometimes all will be good during the day, then around 3 in the morning they get crazy lol.

I would keep them only in neutral until you have marathoned and deem them bonded in that neutral space. Then the community exercise space would be a good transitional space. It also helps to deodorize and rearrange their permanent turf to try to make it as neutral as possible.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[kendall]

That was kind of what I was thinking with the play space and I will probably set alarms throughout the night just to make sure everything is going well! Thanks for the time tip!!

[kendall]

At about 9 hours last night Calliope was grooming Theo for a couple minutes. I think part of it had to do with the banana still stuck on his head and because she didn’t know I was looking but either way it’s progress

They have been together 24 hours with no problems!!! but last night something came up. I spent time with my other bunnies and Gwen was circling my legs so they smelled like her. When I went into the pairs area, they were going crazy running around my legs. They were getting quite worked up which is ok, but is there a good way for me to get them used to being around the other rabbits smells? I was thinking maybe put a rug from the group area into their space. Would it be better to do it slowly or just go full force?

[DanaNM]

Sounds like it’s going well. 🙂 For now I would try to minimize the other bunny smells since they are still cementing their relationship. So you might want to change pants etc. before visiting them. After their bond is cemented, I would very slowly introduce them to the other bunnies’ smells. You might even need to block their view of the other buns once you move them into their permanent home. But they should adjust to it if you do it slowly.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[kendall]

Ok, hopefully it will go well! Thanks

[kendall]

Just an update, they have made it 52 hours without any problems. They are officially bonded!!! I am going to keep a close eye on them for the next few days just to make sure nothing develops, but I am so happy that I finally have a happy pair! Thanks again for all of the help I am so grateful!

[HipHopBunny]

@Kendall

That is GREAT!!! 🙂 Yes, definitely keep a very close eye on them, for you never know when a fight might break out. It could be in a month, could be in a few months, you never know. But if you are there 24/7 then I would say it is good! 🙂 On the first night you put them in their new pen, I would sleep next to them to make sure that no fights break out.

Again I am so happy for you and your bonded duo! Yay!

Wishing you no tiffs and a stable and happy bun duo!

[DanaNM]

That’s great news! Congrats!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[kendall]

I moved them into their permanent room and Theo was very excited to be home so he was running around and giving some good binkies. It kind of scared Calliope at first (which made me a little nervous) but a little after Theo’s show, she put on one of her own. She binkied for the first time since I got her!!!! I have only had her for 2 months which isn’t very long, but it’s a long time to go without a binky. I am so happy that she is happy and I am so excited to see her confidence grow! I think that this was the best thing for her and I couldn’t have done it without this forum. Thank you for all of the help.

[HipHopBunny]

I am definitely not crying at how amazing they are together, and how happy they make the other bun. This is wonderful! I am overjoyed for you! <3 🙂

[kendall]

Thank you so much! It is definitely better than anything I could have imagined!

[DanaNM]

That’s so great!

When you feel they are fully bonded let us know! We like to added “BONDED” to the title of threads that end with a successful bond so it can be helpful to other’s reading the threads. 🙂

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[kendall]

I thought they were fully bonded, and they have been doing great, but today I saw Theo hump Calliope. I have only seen it once, but I have heard Calliope run away a few times and I am guessing that is why. It hasn’t resulted in anything but I am nervous because if Calliope were to hump Theo, he gets quite mad and I don’t know what might happen if I am not there to stop it. (During bonding he chased and Circled, Calliope never retaliated but I had to step in.) Is this normal bonded behavior or do I need to take a couple steps backwards because they are still working things out? I wouldn’t think it would be a problem if I knew Calliope wouldn’t hump him back and potentially cause issues.

Besides this issue, they have been a perfectly happy couple!! Calliope is still working through her fear of zoomies, but I did get a few more from her today!! It still scares her when Theo does his though. They have been doing awesome and I am so excited to have another pair soon (hopefully)!!

[HipHopBunny]

Unfortunately, I recommend re-bonding them. I had my trio perfectly bonded, they were great, but then I ran into the problem you are in right now. 🙁 I kept saying ‘other than that, their fine’ but, one day, all three of them were done with each other. OB’s ear had a bite that was bleeding, so that day they were separated. OB still has a scar. I’m so sorry, I know this is not what you want to hear, and I don’t like saying it either. 🙁 If only rabbits would just bond!

Wishing you luck, and non-humpy buns’!

[kendall]

Since they aren’t fighting should I just take it a couple steps back and put them in a neutral area again? They are doing fine I feel like they just haven’t worked out their hierarchy yet because Calliope still isn’t excited about grooming Theo and because of that he doesn’t really groom either which I think is their main problem. Maybe I just moved too quickly? Should I start separating them when I leave the house just to be safe? I have heard you aren’t supposed to do that once they are bonded but maybe it would be ok in this scenario. The way we are doing school is hybrid, so I will be home most days to help them work this out which is very nice! (I only go to the actual building two days a week.)

Here is the main things that I see, they snuggle and share everything beautifully. Calliope asks for grooms and will forcefully put her head under Theo. Nothing happens besides this but it is clear that she wants grooms and Theo almost never gives them. I have only seen her groom once or twice with the help of banana. I have caught Theo grooming her once but it is so hard to catch because whenever I look at them they stop what they are doing. I can keep trying the banana trick but I am not sure what else to try. I will definitely look at more forum stories for ideas but anything that might work I am willing to try to help them figure this out.

[kendall]

I put banana on their heads and I got a few short grooms from Theo and a 10 min groom from Calliope!! Is this enough to establish hierarchy or is there anything else I can try or do? I was planning on do it a few times everyday until I see them grooming on their own.

[HipHopBunny]

If you can keep them out of fighting, then your method sounds good. 🙂 Wish I’d thought of that with my girls, good idea. Just keep a close eye out. Wishing you luck!

[kendall]

I will keep going! Hopefully they can figure it out.

[DanaNM]

I think your instinct to go back a bit was good. You did progress very quickly so they prob just need a bit more time. The humping doesn’t worry me as much as the fear during zoomies.

Some bonded pairs do hump, you just need to see what happens after the fact. If it leads to a scuffle, no good. If they stay calm and it’s no big deal, then it’s just part of their relationship.

So far none of this has lead to a fight or something you had to break up, correct?

I would probably feel OK keeping them together in neutral territory unsupervised, but might be more wary about unsupervised. It also depends on time of day. Middle of the day my bunnies are slugs and just sleep, so I would be less concerned. More concerned if it was overnight.

But again, go with your instinct. Separating them but leaving them in sight of each other wont undo progress if it’s just for a short while.

@HipHopBunny I’m sorry to hear that! Are they all OK?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[HipHopBunny]

@DanaNM It happened a few months ago, that was what landed me in the bonding process. It wasn’t a bad fight, but you could tell one had happened by the way OB was holding her ear, and the blood on it. Your concern is very appreciated though!

[DanaNM]

Oh ok, phew! I mean still a bummer but I thought this had just happened and I was like Oh nooooooo!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[kendall]

Nothing has lead to a fight at all. I think that I will block off the room with carpet when I am gone and at night because they are less active in the hallway. What can I do about her fear of zoomies? I don’t it to start a fight, but I don’t know how to get her used to it. My first thought was to give her treats as he runs around. Does that sound like it might work? I haven’t heard of a rabbit scared to run around, she is just so insecure.

[HipHopBunny]

Hmm, is she scared when he is out of the pen, or does his presence make her feel better? Maybe when he is zooming you could sit in there with her, and pet her? Some buns actually learn from others how to be brave, so maybe she’ll start binkying all over the place too.

[DanaNM]

I think just a bit more time. It sounds like she is nervous when he zoomies because she still doesn’t trust him 100%. Increasing the amount of space too quickly might also contribute.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[kendall]

She is scared when he runs at her or past her too quickly. After he zooms around, she does try some of her own which is so heartwarming to see! I am going to try and get on a schedule and maybe that will help. I have read that it gives timid rabbits a better since of security and can help with confidence. I ma guessing it will also help their bond if she is more secure?! I would sit next to her and pet her, but I am still working on building trust with her and she doesn’t love to be pet. That is why my first thought was treats otherwise pets would have been number one.

It is not easy to build her trust, that is for sure. Hopefully in a few weeks they will be all good! I definitely think that space had to contribute. They went from a small space to a fairly large one. I will keep them in just the small space for now until I see improvements and then slowly work up.

[HipHopBunny]

Sounds like a good plan. All good and memorable bonds take time, so don’t get discouraged! 🙂

[kendall]

I am not going to call it yet, I am going to give it a few weeks before I say they are 100% bonded, but I think that we are at 90%. I will just give it time and just observe and hope! Thanks so much for all of the help and reassurance! I couldn’t have done it without it and this was an easy bond sooo… yay for first bonds!

[kendall]

They are officially bonded!! They have lived together harmoniously for 2 weeks and they have only become closer. Everyday they make progress and start to trust each other more and more. I am so happy for them!! Thank you so much for all of the help 🙂

[HipHopBunny]

Yay! That is awesome! You will have to post pics of the happy couple! 😉

Again, I’m so happy for you! 😀

[DanaNM]

That’s great, congrats!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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