Do wild rabbits have sensitive tummies?

[sarahthegemini]

Hi guys, I know for our domestic bunnies we have to introduce new foods slowly but it got me thinking if wild rabbits have to do that too? If so, how do they know? Or are their tummies not as fragile as our pet rabbit’s? Just curious! 

[Fluffykins]

They do. But our pet rabbits *are* more fragile only because of human intervention and because we bring them into our (foreign to them) environment.

No species or individual animal is born to live forever right. Wild or in captivity, each has it’s own health problems. Health problems in pet rabbits are just a direct result of our own actions. Improper diet, handling, environment etc.

That doesn’t mean wild rabbits don’t have their own issues – it’s just not down to us (and even then indirectly it is eg pollution). Wild rabbits have instincts to protect them from over gorging on food that helps keep their tummy issues at bay and with a whole list of other ways to end up dead – tummy problems is quite low down.

Contrary to popular belief domesticated rabbits also have the same instincts; we just train it out of them. Also contrary to popular belief domesticated rabbits would and could fend for themselves if released into the wild; a huge percentage would die but that’s the natural order of things. If the whole of humanity was plunged into armegeden (lol) and forced to live the hunter gather in the forrest lifestyle – we’d also learn to survive after the weakest died off.

Wild and domesticated are just made up human terms to explain something we want to explain. Peel it back and any animal (us included) are all the same. An animal is an animal is an animal. We just like to dress it (that fact) up because we (humanity in general) can’t handle it.

I’m in that kind of mood today :/

Something else on my mind I gota offload too (sorry in advance haha) but I can totally see us bunny people heading into a dark dingy tunnel in one matter. Vitamin D. The kind synthesized from sunlight. The push right now to promote house bunnies (remmeber the push for sunscreen)? And really discourage any outside interaction is going to cause a massive endemic of health problems for exclusive house buns that *never* get sunlight on their skin.

[Deleted User]

I thought that rabbits obtain enough vitamin D through their diet?

With humans, we require a lot more (obviously, because we are much, much larger) and so we can’t obtain a sufficient amount from our diet alone. But from what I’ve researched, rabbits can obtain enough from their diet so it’s not entirely necessary to do the whole sunlight synthesis thing.

If you’ve found information from a reputable source that proves the importance of sunlight then I’d love to read it! I’ve been wondering about the vitamin D thing myself, the thing is that I live smack on the intersection of two busy roads in the middle of the city, so I think it’s just very stressful to bring Ophelia outside.

It’s the holidays, cheer up! I have the tendency to be cynical as well… But thinking about rabbits, do you not think that a domesticated life is much better than living in the wild? Sure, it’s less “natural”…but “natural” for a rabbit is living in constant fear of predators, constant breeding to sustain the population and constant searching for food and relocating once sources become scarce. And they have quite a short lifespan in the wild (like 2-3 years) while they can live 8-10 years domesticated.

[Deleted User]

And in response to Sarah, I imagine that they have some sort of instinct as fluffykins suggested. Perhaps if they get an upset tummy they know to eat something in particular that helps to get it regulated again? (Like a kind of grass or something?) I think I read about some kind of animal that eats clay if it eats something poisonous and the clay reduces the uptake of the toxin. So maybe they know something like that?

“While this is the most comprehensive study examining geophagy in humans, according to the authors, previous animal research has shown that poisoned rats will eat clay when offered a variety of substances, and researchers also have documented that various primates including chimpanzees and such birds as parrots ingest clay soil after eating toxic fruits or experiencing gastrointestinal distress.”

http://news.cornell.edu/stories/201…rid-toxins

I just skimmed across this article, but its interesting! Might be similar to a mechanism that rabbits use against toxins/pathogens/GI distress?

[joea64]

Fernando: “Who cares about the wild life? I’m perfectly comfy right where I am. Now go away, silly human, and quit disturbing my nap by playing paparazzi.”

[Sirius&Luna]

I also imagine they get less options in the wild – surely the majority of easy food for them is grass, so they’re probably not going to gorge on carrots or brocolli! I doubt they really get to experience vegetables, it’s probably more along forage (eg, blackberry leaves or willow) that they would naturally eat.

[Q8bunny]

Domestication has suppressed or altogether eliminated certain traits that would allow our buns to survive in the wild. There are exceptions, as with all things in this world. For instance, my bun was fed mostly human food the first few months of his life. He now seems to have a cast iron gut despite being unable to distinguish between bad bunny food (beef tacos) and good (lettuce).

As for the vitamin D debate, it absolutely is essential for buns to get 10 or so minutes of direct sunlight (not through glass or nets) per day (or an hour or so once a week. Food is fortified, but does not compare to the stuff produced by their bodies. Hence the huge incidence of tooth and skeletal issues in house buns. This comes from Chewie’s former vet – a lifelong bun specialist who had an particular interest in the matter.

[Fluffykins]

Posted By BunNoob on 12/21/2017 8:59 AM
I thought that rabbits obtain enough vitamin D through their diet?

With humans, we require a lot more (obviously, because we are much, much larger) and so we can’t obtain a sufficient amount from our diet alone. But from what I’ve researched, rabbits can obtain enough from their diet so it’s not entirely necessary to do the whole sunlight synthesis thing.

If you’ve found information from a reputable source that proves the importance of sunlight then I’d love to read it! I’ve been wondering about the vitamin D thing myself, the thing is that I live smack on the intersection of two busy roads in the middle of the city, so I think it’s just very stressful to bring Ophelia outside.

It’s the holidays, cheer up! I have the tendency to be cynical as well… But thinking about rabbits, do you not think that a domesticated life is much better than living in the wild? Sure, it’s less “natural”…but “natural” for a rabbit is living in constant fear of predators, constant breeding to sustain the population and constant searching for food and relocating once sources become scarce. And they have quite a short lifespan in the wild (like 2-3 years) while they can live 8-10 years domesticated.

It’s not about getting enough vitamin D it’s the type of vitamin d. Vitamin D3 is the type from sun light, and vitamin D2 is found in foods. For healthy bone production you specifically need the D3 sunlight one. Eating all the vit D2 rich food in the world still won’t be the same as getting any D3 because it’s just not the same thing. Humans only need a really quick exposure (15 minutes) or so daily to keep their levels up (depending where in the world they are).

Plus it’s not just about vitamin D. There must be such a whole host of other negatives to being kept 100 % *fully* indoors – just imagine it on humans! We have a host of well established physical and mental problems to being cooped up for long periods of time: SAD (seasonal effective disorder) and the use of light therapy for mood enhancement spring straight to mind.

And this is on humans where the research is only just beginning. Rabbits won’t reach that level of consideration (ie studies to look into the effects, detrimental or otherwise) for a long time. By then the problems will be generations in. Like it currently is with humans.

I’m definitely not one of those people that use “natural” as a buzzword and think it’s all the rage lol and I am more then fully aware the connotation to “natural” means nothing by itself – it’s not automatically good because it’s “natural”. Certainly, many poisons and ails are fully natural

Natural doesn’t equate good. Natural just means natural. It’s up to science to figure out if it’s good or not. In general through, like diet, I belive habitat for buns is best when it’s closest to natural

I have a fully indoor bun btw and do not recommend outside bunnies. I’m just saying let’s think about how wild rabbits “normally” live and try and emulate the plus sides of that as much as we can with our house buns.

Re your last paragraph, I don’t know. I don’t know if I can ever conclude for myself, one being better then the other. All I can ask myself regards to that is, would I appreciate being plucked out of this world, out of humanity with it’s diseases and wars and problems; the drab of having to grow up and find a job and sustain a living, going through love and childbirth which exhaust my fragile body…. and placed into an alien sterile environment where an alien shows me love in it’s alien way, whilst keeping me clean and fed and living the sterile life in a test tube for 10 years longer then on earth. I don’t know.

[sarahthegemini]

Good grief I’ve sparked quite the debate  Some interesting food for thought! I remember Buttercup’s first ever episode of stasis, it was after trying the teensiest amount of parsnip. Of course I don’t suspect bunnies would stumble upon parsnips too regularly in the wild but it got me thinking that if the tiniest bit of ‘bad’ food can cause such issues, how on earth do they survive? I know Buttercup is a particularly sensitive bun whereas Peanut has a tummy of steel but still. And what about foods that generally are bunny appropriate but still cause issues in certain individuals? Does that contribute to their low life expectancy? 

[Fluffykins]

Posted By Q8bunny on 12/21/2017 12:09 PM
Domestication has suppressed or altogether eliminated certain traits that would allow our buns to survive in the wild. There are exceptions, as with all things in this world. For instance, my bun was fed mostly human food the first few months of his life. He now seems to have a cast iron gut despite being unable to distinguish between bad bunny food (beef tacos) and good (lettuce).

As for the vitamin D debate, it absolutely is essential for buns to get 10 or so minutes of direct sunlight (not through glass or nets) per day (or an hour or so once a week. Food is fortified, but does not compare to the stuff produced by their bodies. Hence the huge incidence of tooth and skeletal issues in house buns. This comes from Chewie’s former vet – a lifelong bun specialist who had an particular interest in the matter.

Couldn’t disagree more with the first statement. To be utterly frank, this view point is only pushed so people don’t feel bad about owning pets. Pure and simple. I’d rather see things as they are and still be able to say I own a pet and LIKE IT. I own a pet because I want to, for *my benefit* and joy, not because without me that animal cannot live.

It’s well documents animals like domesticated pigs and horses can not only survive but thrive when left to fend for themselves in the wild, they just turn ferral like any animal would.

If an animal is healthy and vastly as it should be, it will learn. After being in the wild and realising there is no food bowl, it will naturally go looking for food. After seeing the first human and being kicked away for example it will begin to learn humans cannot be trusted. It will adapt to survive – that’s what being an animal is! (Humans included).

All domestication is is taking what’s there and breeding it with the characteristics you like which include being able to live alongside humans. They still have brains to learn though and that’s all they need to learn to survive.

When someone catches a released pet bunny and thinks, oh I’ve saved this buns life… only the same way that person would have saved a *wild* buns life by catching it and giving it food, water, shelter and vetinary care, and deleting it’s potential problems. Pet bun and wild bun alike could then live to 10+ years. There is nothing inside a pet bunny that automatically makes it able to live longer with a human, that isn’t biologically inside a wild bunny. The difference is the pet is conditioned to trust humans. That’s it.

[Fluffykins]

Posted By sarahthegemini on 12/21/2017 12:36 PM
Good grief I’ve sparked quite the debate  Some interesting food for thought! I remember Buttercup’s first ever episode of stasis, it was after trying the teensiest amount of parsnip. Of course I don’t suspect bunnies would stumble upon parsnips too regularly in the wild but it got me thinking that if the tiniest bit of ‘bad’ food can cause such issues, how on earth do they survive? I know Buttercup is a particularly sensitive bun whereas Peanut has a tummy of steel but still. And what about foods that generally are bunny appropriate but still cause issues in certain individuals? Does that contribute to their low life expectancy? 

Hahaha seriously sorry, I’m in this really serious mood all of a sudden today!!

Sadly, in evolotutionary terms, a bun like sweet little bhttercup wouldn’t be “top dog” /bun(?) In the wild and simply wouldn’t be one to pass on the genes…

This also goes back to animals instinctively knowing what’s good for them or not, when humans leave it ALL alone. Humans have this too – when we are sick (and I know I had this when I was pregnant) sotmimes we just crave a certain food item and it turns out that food item contains the vit or mineral that our body was deficient in or needed all along.

I’ve read loads of posts here of when a bunny has statis or is sick in another way and they shun all food (especially pellets) and will only accept something like herbs or dandelion greens for eg. I don’t think this innate ability in us all to *survive* could ever be bred out.

[joea64]

Posted By Q8bunny on 12/21/2017 12:09 PM

  
As for the vitamin D debate, it absolutely is essential for buns to get 10 or so minutes of direct sunlight (not through glass or nets) per day (or an hour or so once a week. Food is fortified, but does not compare to the stuff produced by their bodies. Hence the huge incidence of tooth and skeletal issues in house buns. This comes from Chewie’s former vet – a lifelong bun specialist who had an particular interest in the matter.

This is the first time I’ve heard of that, and I’m pretty surprised considering that everything else I’ve ever read at least strongly suggests that house rabbits need to be kept indoors unless they have a very good reason to be outdoors. That being said, though, Panda and Fernando always sleep on the open upper deck of their condo in the daytime, especially when it’s sunshiny, so they can enjoy the sunlight filtering through the blinds. The part about no nets makes me uneasy because it removes a crucial block between rabbits and insects such as flies, or even worse, predators. Also, how would one manage in winter when it’s below freezing or high summer, particularly in hot and humid areas like Northern Virginia?

[Deleted User]

I was wondering the same thing, Joe.

I have a pop up puppy play pen that is mesh, but that’s about the most I can do for her considering that I live in an apartment in the city and there’s just nowhere to safely let her run around.

Also, in Florida the temperatures are ungodly in the summer (nevermind the humidity that sometimes pushes the “feels like” temps to 105 or higher). Also, I wonder if buns can contract diseases from mosquitoes, since we had a zika problem last year.

I understand that 10 minutes really isn’t that long, I just wonder about the net thing. Because I could always open my sliding door to my apartment so that there was no glass in the way, but there is a mesh screen slide to keep out bugs and such. So it just really isn’t possible for me to set her outside in the sun without any barrier whatsoever.

[Fluffykins]

Far as I’m aware glass blocks out UVB rays which is the part of sunshine we need for synthesis of vit d. If a mesh screen was to have sufficient holes in it, there’s no reason why UVB light wouldn’t pass through, because nothing is there to block it.

I can only imagine having a barrier such as a mesh screen, you’d need to be out longer to absorb the same amount of rays as if you were out without said barrier.

[Deleted User]

I understand the logic and I definitely agree that sunlight is good for mental health too (I had a sister who would sleep for 18 hours a day and not go outside for days at a time and I constantly told her that she needed to go outside and get some sun and fresh air). I guess I’m mostly just concerned that it might be terrifying to be outside with all the noises. The hospital that I work at is 2 miles from my house, so there are constantly ambulances barreling down the road, on top of wanna-be-gangsters blasting music so loud that my windows shake.

I’m going to start leaving the sliding glass door open in the evening when I’m home, I just wonder if she will even go and bask in the sun or if she won’t because it will be noisy. She may just hide behind the couch. In that case, I suppose I’ll have to force her out in the puppy pen

[Deleted User]

There are a lot of stray cats in my neighborhood because there’s this crazy lady that feeds them all. Lots of people have dogs too, big dogs like pitt bulls. And there is a raccoon mama that has 6 babies. She is super pissy and sometimes chases the cats and has chased a human away from the dumpster before. So I am not comfortable with an x-pen or structure that isn’t fully enclosed. Of course I wouldn’t leave her without my supervision, but just to be safe that nothing crazy happens.

[Fluffykins]

Wow that all sounds scary even for me!! I don’t think I’d be comfortable taking her out at all in all that, even in the enclosed play pen! What about having a window or door open and her in the playpen by the open window/door?

I’m in London so you can imagine the amount of sunlight we get :/ and even though I do take fluffykins out with me, he’s always in the carrier and I’ve never sat outside with him, just to feel the sun. I know for humans the amount of vit d we synthesize during the summer, usually, is enough to keep our levels topped up through the winter. (Of course it’s always dependent on loads of variables like age, amount of exposure, geography etc) but in general. Probably be same for other animals?

[Deleted User]

Sometimes it can actually be peaceful (believe it or not) so I do try to take her out when I notice that it’s an especially chill and quiet afternoon. This town is home to the University of Florida, so there are a ton of students that leave town for winter break and summer. While it’s still pretty busy out, it’s relatively more calm than the spring and fall when students are in.

The sliding door is my best bet, because I have a sleigh bed frame, which covers the window in my bedroom so opening that won’t be any help. And my other window has a desk in front of it, which she sometimes sleeps under, so I think she would just sleep under it and not get any light.

We will play around with some ideas though! I gave up on it because I thought that majority of what I read says that they get enough in diet and it’s not necessary… but if that’s not the case then I certainly don’t want her health to suffer!

[Q8bunny]

Posted By Fluffykins on 12/21/2017 12:38 PM

Posted By Q8bunny on 12/21/2017 12:09 PM
Domestication has suppressed or altogether eliminated certain traits that would allow our buns to survive in the wild. There are exceptions, as with all things in this world. For instance, my bun was fed mostly human food the first few months of his life. He now seems to have a cast iron gut despite being unable to distinguish between bad bunny food (beef tacos) and good (lettuce).

As for the vitamin D debate, it absolutely is essential for buns to get 10 or so minutes of direct sunlight (not through glass or nets) per day (or an hour or so once a week. Food is fortified, but does not compare to the stuff produced by their bodies. Hence the huge incidence of tooth and skeletal issues in house buns. This comes from Chewie’s former vet – a lifelong bun specialist who had an particular interest in the matter.

Couldn’t disagree more with the first statement. To be utterly frank, this view point is only pushed so people don’t feel bad about owning pets. Pure and simple. I’d rather see things as they are and still be able to say I own a pet and LIKE IT. I own a pet because I want to, for *my benefit* and joy, not because without me that animal cannot live.

It’s well documents animals like domesticated pigs and horses can not only survive but thrive when left to fend for themselves in the wild, they just turn ferral like any animal would.

If an animal is healthy and vastly as it should be, it will learn. After being in the wild and realising there is no food bowl, it will naturally go looking for food. After seeing the first human and being kicked away for example it will begin to learn humans cannot be trusted. It will adapt to survive – that’s what being an animal is! (Humans included).

All domestication is is taking what’s there and breeding it with the characteristics you like which include being able to live alongside humans. They still have brains to learn though and that’s all they need to learn to survive.

When someone catches a released pet bunny and thinks, oh I’ve saved this buns life… only the same way that person would have saved a *wild* buns life by catching it and giving it food, water, shelter and vetinary care, and deleting it’s potential problems. Pet bun and wild bun alike could then live to 10+ years. There is nothing inside a pet bunny that automatically makes it able to live longer with a human, that isn’t biologically inside a wild bunny. The difference is the pet is conditioned to trust humans. That’s it.

Like I said, there are exceptions. But your statements, if correct (which, sadly, they’re not) would be surprising and welcome news to zoologists and wildlife conservation peeps all over the world. I love having a pet. I do not feel the need to justify it by telling myself that the alternative (the wild) would be lethal. Oh, wait, except in my case, it would – I live in Kuwait, where NO rabbits survive the desert heat in summer. Similarly, having a brain and being able to think does not help an animal survive if the need to exercise certain instincts has not been there for generations, or their gut has stopped producing certain necessary enzymes that would allow it to forage on certain edibles. Essentially, what domestication is, is artificial (to an extent) Darwinism. My rabbit being the product of survival of the fittest in a home environment will likely not survive in a wild environment (or an urban environment, etc) like buns who were products of survival of the fittest in that natural environment. It’s also important to point out that what we’re talking about is technically “feral” animals (escaped pets or livestock). Assuming they manage to acclimatize and survive (which some do), and breed, it still takes at least one generation of offspring for certain genes to begin reappearing again while others become dormant. Don’t even get me started on immunology issues and bred traits like conspicuous coat colour or dwarfism, which is often accompanied by dental issues which require vet care. Just because some chickens, cats, dogs, pigs, and horses have survived and thrived feral, doen’t mean most animals will. Saying so is both uninformed, and very cute, in a hippy kind of way. Peace out.

[Fluffykins]

These exceptions that you speak of, is my point – from a scientific point of view. Not really hippy at all, just facts of life.

If the whole of the human population was forced to live in the wild, the very old the very young the sick and the weak, would die. My point is this – humanity *would not* cease to exist because the strongest and fittest and smartest of us would adapt and *learn* to survive in the wild.

So likewise, I am not talking about your bunny or my bunny or any single bunny. I am stating the fact – if *all* pet rabbits were released into the wild it’s beyond naive to ascertain *all* could not survive.

Yours wouldn’t survive due to heat, mine wouldn’t survive due to that busy main road outside but like I said im not talking individual bunnies. I’m saying out of the entire population of released pets, many would survive because they would learn to survive.

The ones with undesirable physical characteristics that need frequent human intervention would die off and not reproduce. Thus, that entire trait wouldn’t last too long in the new population.

[OverthinkingBun]

This turned into a broad debate  I’m surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but I’ve read that wild rabbit babies “learn” which plants to eat from their mother’s milk?  So that they are sort of imprinted on which plants to eat by the time they are weaned.  It’s simply not true that rabbits wouldn’t have to recognize plants in the wild, as anyone who’s tried to identify all the wild plants in any particular patch of land could attest.  Also, we are all aware of the huge reproductive potential of rabbits – keep in mind that for the population to remain stable, the average female needs to have an average of two young that survive to reproduce, out of all the young she produces in her life.  So if a wild female rabbit has 40-100 babies by age 1 (not impossible), only two have to survive to keep the local population up.  That’s some heavy selection pressure against the ones with sensitive tummies…

I asked at the vet’s why my rabbit had developed gum disease, and they said it probably wasn’t anything I did, just that a lot of rabbits don’t make it in the wild, but as our pets, we love them and want them to be healthy.  

I’ll have to read more about D3 in pet buns.  For those of you who want to try this but are concerned about taking your rabbits outside, were you aware that reptile owners use special sunlight bulbs to allow their pets to make D3 in the home?  These are different from the SAD lights for humans, since those block UV rays.  You could try something similar for your bun, but of course somehow protecting the cord from them.  Interestingly, there is a lot of variation in pet reptiles in how much/what kind of light they need to not develop metabolic bone disease.  Nocturnal reptiles such as most geckos do not require supplementary sunlight, and I think most keepers do not use UV lamps for them.  (My gecko doesn’t have one, as I worry about the damage it might cause her lidless eyes).  In addition, snakes seem to get enough D vitamins in their diet and do not require special lighting.  Lizards such as bearded dragons will die without access to real or artificial sunlight, though (I have no experience with these guys, though, that’s what I’ve read).  Sorry to get sidetracked with reptiles, but I think on the subject of supplemental lighting, more research has been done with them, and certainly more lighting products are available for them at a store.  

[DanaNM]

Wow I am not even going to try to catch up on this thread! But it is very interesting! I just wanted to mention to Sarah, in regards to the original question, that I’ve read studies on wild rodents, I believe they were pack rats… (I know rabbits aren’t rodents! but I think they must have similar instincts), that showed that the rats would only “sample” new foods at first to see how they reacted. They would take a little bite, and see how it went. If it was safe, they would eat much more over time! If it was poisonous or otherwise not yummy they would never try it again. (The pack rats also had learned that if they stored some unpalatable foods in their den for long enough for them to dry out, they became palatable, so the rats would stockpile the unpalatable plants, and then eat them once they were dried and cured! So cool! )

So many plants are chemically defended, to do anything else would be very dangerous to an herbivore.

I believe many wild herbivores have this trait (cows, deer, etc), and I have actually observed my own buns do this with a new herb. Seems like the first time they try it they are very skeptical, but then once they know it agrees with them they nom it down.

Whether this behavior was learned from parents or is instinctive I’m not sure, I imagine it might be a blend… If it’s completely learned from parents, then it makes sense that it would be quickly lost in a domestic animal.

Herbivores in general have evolved to take advantage of “abundant yet low quality” food (like hay!), and wild rabbits would be browsing on lots of dried and dead roughage, and would likely have much more diverse gut flora as well.

I think it’s always important to remember as well that wild rabbits don’t get old,…. they succumb to predators long before that happens, plus they have to deal with disease and parasites on top of it all. I do think that any with serious digestive issues would not survive long enough to reproduce… so there must be a very strong selective pressure for strong tummies (and behaviors to avoid problem foods!)

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Author]

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