Desperate Help – When to give up on bonding?

[binkieBun]

Hello, please help me. I have a male neutered rabbit that weighs 4.5 pounds. I tried to bond him with a few females, but having little luck. The females keep rejecting him. My rabbit has a big heart and desperate for affection, so sometimes he can be persistent in asking for grooming. He NEVER gets any grooming from his partner. Sometimes he attempts to be dominant, but looses because he has a gentle nature. 

When he approaches the current female rabbit, she nips him. She is spayed and 1.5 times larger than him. Her nipping habit has got gentler and less often after “stress” bonding. She used to pull out his fur and chase him down. Now she just does quicks nips to make him go away. She doesn’t show an interest in him. She is generally civil with him when he keeps his distance, and he is not in her way. It seems like she doesn’t want any relationship with him, so should I continue the bonding? I 

I don’t want to force the female to bond with my male rabbit, and nor do I want to put my male rabbit through constant rejection and fear of nipping. However, some rabbit owners have told me this is a “normal” process and a healthy bond can still be reached after some time and effort. I feel those close to me might be overly optimistic rather than realistic, so that’s why I’m reaching out from some help for the community for  advice, thoughts, or affirmation. I been trying to bond the current female for 3 months, but in reality its been probably 1.5 months of effort. My goal of a healthy bond would be mutual interest and grooming between the two rabbits.

Thank you so much.
Stressed Bunny Owner

[Sirius&Luna]

Hi

Sorry to hear bonding is stressful for you. It is often a stressful process, but when you see two bonded buns it’s worth the effort!

Could you tell us a bit more about what you’ve been doing to bond them so far? It might help us to give you advice

Generally, we advise that people spend a month ‘pre-bonding’ the bunnies, so swapping them between hutches to get them used to each other’s scent. Then start very short face to face meetings on neutral territory. They shouldn’t be allowed to chase, fur pull, box or bite, but short humping and nipping is ok.

The fact that your female is mostly ignoring your male is good. It means she doesn’t hate him! Ignoring is one of the first steps to bonding, so it doesn’t sound like they’re a hopeless case yet.

Like I said, if you can tell us a bit more about what you’re actually doing, perhaps we could identify some things that could improve their situation

[sarahthegemini]

I agree with Sirius, the fact that your female is ignoring him is totally normal. It’s how many bonds start out so don’t lose hope yet! It’s just taking a little longer to move on from. You could help move things along with some stress sessions perhaps? Unfortunately tho, we have to move at the pace of the bunnies which can be tiresome. But so worth it in the end.

Could you tell us step by step what you’ve done so far?

[Bam]

It’s great that the nipping has gotten less severe! As the others have said, ignoring is normal. And not just normal, it’s an important step in bonding. If a bun ignore another bun, it means it doesn’t percieve the other bun as a threat.

[Mikey]

Echoing that less nipping and ignoring are both good signs My Blue and Bombur started out with Bombur begging for Blue’s attention while Blue would ignore him. It would go as far as Bombur would nip to get Blue to notice him, and Blue would just turn his butt to him and ignore him. Now that theyre bonded, theyre both super cuddly and cannot be separated. Theyre complete love buns

Since things are going along well, I would personally continue what youre doing. Bonding sessions with a few stress sessions between.

[binkieBun]

Thank you all for the support. As many of you have asked, here is my list of techniques:

1. I have two nearly identical indoor pens set-up side by side for each of the rabbits. They are in these pens most of the day.

2. I take them for a not gentle car ride for stress bonding, and after the car ride I put them both in a neutral pen for maybe 1-2 hours.

3. I let them go about their business in the shared neutral pen, and monitor them.

4. At times, I join them in the neutral pen to moderate their interactions, like encourage them them to be close to each other or break up the nips or tensions. Sometimes when I try to break up bad interactions, I take a gentle approach, and other times I feel if it gets worse I have to be stern in disciplining (mostly to the female). I’m not sure which approach is better or it depends on the situation?

5. I snuggle the two rabbits side by side and pet them together. Usually the male will like the soothing feeling and lick the female. However, the female does not return the favor, but enjoys the snuggling moments. When the snuggling is over, sometimes there is peace between the two. Other times, is back to nipping from the female.

I hope this gives a better idea. I sincerely appreciate those who have reached out, and taken the time and effort to respond. Love you!

[Sirius&Luna]

Do you swap them between both the pens, or do they have one each?

The thing with bonding is its very based on what works for individual rabbits. So, keep going with the things that are working, and stop bothering with things that aren’t.

Do you always stress bond in the car before the neutral pen? Maybe the stress isn’t actually helping. You could try just petting them together when you first put them in the neutral pen, and see if that changes their behaviour. (I used to pet mine, then feed them, then leave them to it… so two automatic positive things every time they’re put with each other). It’s also good to change things up so its not a habit eg. bunnies think ‘ugh, miserable car ride, now I have to sit with the other bunny, then we fight’. You might have inadvertently taught them that the other bunny means a stressful car ride. They make those associations pretty quickly.

It sounds like the snuggling is working, so keep going with that.

That makes me think that you being in the pen is probably helpful for them too, so I would keep doing that as well, until they’ve moved past the nipping stage.

I was ALWAYS sat in my bonding area (the bathroom) with my bunnies for the first couple of weeks, so I could stop negative interactions before they started. Some people prefer to be more hands off, but I think it depends a lot on the bunnies. Once I felt like I could trust them more, I would stand outside the bathroom instead (I can’t tell you how sick of my windowless bathroom I was!).

Please don’t give up! I don’t think there’s an easy fix, as you’re not doing anything obviously wrong, so it is just about persistence I’m afraid. Have you read anyone’s bonding journal on here? They were really helpful for me in seeing how long it took other people, and getting some different ideas to change things up when one thing stopped working.

[Sirius&Luna]

One other thing I just thought of –
if they do nip/fight etc, don’t immediately put them back in their own pens, or they learn that the negative behaviour gets them what they want.
That’s why its important to end sessions on a good note, and end sessions in the middle of them going well – it sounds counterproductive, but it’s a good association for them to make.

[CrazyAnimalLady]

I’m going to try the car ride trick. Have been trying to bond my bunny’s for 2 weeks and I feel things are becoming more gloomy the longer it goes on.

Completed all the swapping litter boxes/cages for 4 weeks (started 4 weeks after they were neutered); have them sharing a pen wall all day and night.

When first introducing them George’s mounting was constant. Absolutely non stop. Poor Lilly…

Lilly would submit and ask for grooming but George would not stop mounting her.

2 weeks later and Lilly has started to mount George back and they’re circling. Lilly has also started some angry binky like moves.

If the car ride doesn’t work I think I may just have 2 separate buns.

Please keep me updated on your progress! I’m so disappointed in myself that I haven’t been able to support them through this.

[Sirius&Luna]

Hi CrazyAnimalLady

Why don’t you start you own thread, and we can try and give you some advice too

My intitial instinct with yours is the same. Can you identify one thing that works, and go from there? Does the smushing together and petting work? If you haven’t tried car rides yet that’s worth a go.You could also try shorter sessions, where you just give them some food, let them eat together, then separate. Then you can gradually increase the time they’re spending together from there.

It’s also good to step in and intervene if mounting is getting out of control, or stressing the other bunny out. If it goes on longer than 5 seconds, just push them off, and redirect them to some food or another distraction.

[CrazyAnimalLady]

Will do!! Sorry! Didn’t want to start a new one in case it was too similar a problem. Thank You!

binkieBun- I’m gonna keep an eye on this thread. Got my fingers crossed that it works out for You!

[Sirius&Luna]

Sorry, I just meant its easier for us to give you personalised advice on a separate thread, otherwise it might get a bit confusing what works for one set of bunnies might not work for another!

[binkieBun]

Thank you, Sirius&Luna.
I used to swap pens but the two rabbits would get very angry. This is when I first started the bond. Maybe now is a good time to try again for a new reaction. Lots of time has passed since then.

Recently, I always started with stress bonding before entering them in the neutral pen. I will be observe more if this is good or bad method.

You have a good point, when I change things up regarding my methods and techniques, I notice I get better results.

You’re probably right about sitting in the pen issue. Recently, I have NOT sat in the pen much hoping things are better between the two, but maybe they are not ready for that.

Yep, so many people remind me to end it on the good note. I get greedy hoping the good note can last longer, but of course that backfires. I need to learn to end the sessions sooner.

I have read online bonding articles, but they tend not to go much in depth or cover these corner case issues I’ve mentioned. Thanks for your insight. I’m new to this site, but I will look at other people’s posts to get ideas too.

[binkieBun]

Thanks CrazyAnimalLady

Quick note – When things were that intense with my bonding sessions, people directed me to stress bonding. It definitely calmed my 2 rabbits down to a more tolerable state. I heard another stress bonding method is to put them in a laundry basket and shake it around like an amusement park ride.

[Sirius&Luna]

Swapping pens is a really important step, and its normal for them to get angry about it. What you want to do is swap until they’re no longer angry about it. They’re angry because they can smell the other rabbit, and the other rabbit is in their space. What you’re trying to achieve is neither rabbit ‘owning’ either space, and both becoming used to the smell of the other being present

It might even be useful if you took a break from actual bonding sessions for a couple of weeks and just did pen swapping. It gives you a bit of a break too!

[Sirius&Luna]

Being as the search function is down, here are a few interesting bonding threads, as I couldn’t find any in the first few pages:

Mark pretty recently bonded two bunnies – they were quite an easy bond, but there was some fur pulling and aggression to get out of the way, and it includes good advice from experienced members
https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/163216/Default.aspx

Here’s mine, although sadly after a bout of stasis I’m going to need to rebond them:
https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/162731/Default.aspx

Here’s a bond that failed despite best efforts:
https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/162560/Default.aspx

And here’s Dana’s tricky but eventually successful bond:
https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/158740/Default.aspx

[binkieBun]

Thanks for helping me so MUCH!

[DanaNM]

Hi BinkieBun,

Just thought I would catch up on this since I saw your other thread. Echo others that a change up of location can help tons.

FYI I’ve successfully bonded Bertha twice now, and she’s pretty bossy and territorial, so not the easiest gal to work with. Her first bond took 3 months, and I didn’t journal it as I didn’t know this forum existed! I tried bonding her to JP after Bunston passed away but that bond failed after 5 months. Her bond to Moose was much smoother and more “text book”, but still took 6 weeks. I have so much envy for those two week bonds…!

I’ve always made big jumps with mine when I would take them to a completely new neutral space whenever we hit a plateau (so same behavior each session with no improvements). You can try making the space larger or smaller, try a different stress method (like put them in a large box and vacuum around them), try positive things instead of stress (banana on heads, smoosh petting, etc), and a new location (such as a friend’s house or different room) can work wonders when you get stuck.

Bonding is usually steps forward and back, and can make big jumps forward…. with Bertha and Bunston (that first bond) the first hurdle was getting them to stop fighting. That took a few weeks. Then they reached the “tolerance” phase… and we got stuck there for like a month and a half. Then finally we got some grooming, and then it was only like 2 days until they acted like they had been friends forever. Crazy kids….and so stubborn!

Other’s have given great advice. From your posts it sounds like the female is still not quite trusting of the male, and that she wants to be dominant (and will prob get her way eventually).

Their pattern sounds very much like both of Bertha’s bonds. She tends to not assert her dominance until after a bit, but ultimately ends up being dominant. Once bonded though, it’s hard to tell. And just so you know, asking for grooming is a show of dominance, not submission. The bunny that grooms is the submissive one.

In terms of your interactions with them, try not to push them to be close together, unless it is by making the space smaller, as this could lead to some trust issues between them. If they come nose-to-nose on their own and both ask for grooms, pet both and swap scents. When you break up scuffles, try not to use your physical self. My go-to is always my vacuum cleaner or some other loud noise. You want them to “decide” to stop on their own.

Remember, even if it looks like nothing is happening, if they aren’t fighting, they are building trust, so that’s a good thing.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[binkieBun]

Thanks DanaNM. I will incorporate your input also in my sessions. ?

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