Could it be e cuniculi???? (PT 2)

[winnie&jinxbuns]

Hi everyone, this is a kind of part 2 to the last post I made about my rabbit Winnie. We ended up taking her to the vet, did a full body examination and she is in perfect health appearance wise. Dr says she doesn’t seem to be in any pain and is overall a healthy bunny. We did an xray that particular day and very bizarrely, Winnie’s appendix was so huge that day, they couldn’t see the majority of her insides. They told me to only feed her hay and give her Gabapentin to see if it helps with the pain and Panacur in case she has parasites and then come back 2 weeks later to do another xray. She’s been taking the Gabapentin for about 2 and a half weeks now and the Panacur for only 4 days. When we went back to do another xray, hoping her appendix would be of normal size, it was the exact same.

Now i’m at a loss because I have a rabbit that appears healthy (test wise), but behaves like a mentally ill patient. She has moments where she freezes, is scared for no reason, will face a wall for way too long, will be positioned awkwardly, slight head tilt, and overall is unhappy. Oh, and is completely not litter trained anymore and often gets a dirty bottom from pee (she’s has her urine tested and has no urine issues like sludge) It’s been like this for a year and the head tilt we noticed about a 2-3 months ago. If you would like more info on how she used to be, I have it pretty detailed in my last post!

The point of this post is that the Dr says its very unlikely that she has e cuniculi because she is overall healthy and doesn’t show enough signs, but at this point Winnie has been checked for everything and has gotten so many tests that have been inconclusive and it’s getting really expensive. I disagree with the vet and think that its very possible that she has e cuniculi and i would rather take the risks and go ahead with treatment; what other illness could make her behave like this?? At this point I don’t know WHAT else it could be. I would really appreciate it if you guys could share your experiences if you had or have a bunny with e cuniculi, the more detail the better! Thank you so much!!

[Bam]

The appendix is the cecum, it’s where the cecotropes are made. They’re made through a fermentation process which is performed by various bacteria and fungi (yeasts), and it renders the food the bun eats more digestible. A lot of vitamins and volatile essential fatty acids are produced in this process, and when the cecum bacteria come to the end of their lives and die a natural death, the rabbit recycles the proteins the bacteria are made of. All of this is why buns must eat their cecos.

A very full cecum seems to me (keep in mind we are NOT vets here and we can ONLY suggest things that you might want to discuss with your vet) like it could perhaps be some sort of cecal impaction, i e the cecum cant empty itself like it should. The cause for this is not so straightforward to figure out though. A diet very high in fiber is recommended, together with good hydration. If the cecum is distended you shouldnt give motility drugs due to the risk of rupture, but moderate exercise should be encouraged.

Buns with serious cecal impaction tend to have a big belly, and this is easy to mistake for “fat”. The rest of the bun can be pretty much emaciated though, with a protruding spine and hip bones and easily felt ribs.

EC can affect the GI tract, even though this is not as well known as the effects EC can have on the central nervous system or/and the kidneys.

[winnie&jinxbuns]

Thank you so much for your help! I could definitely see how it might be cecal impaction, the only problem is that according to her vet, when she presses on Winnie’s tummy, she doesn’t seem to be in pain. A second thing is that Winnie poo’s normally and eats her cecotropes all the time. The problem is her litter training and the fact that she poos and pees everywhere on top of acting mentally unwell and slight head tilt. However it does seem like she is skinnier as I can feel her hip bones. She’s a mini rex and it’s hard to tell, but I did notice that…

That is why I think it could be EC, nothing else makes sense! The gabapentin on the other hand does seem to calm her down and slow down her weird behavior. Did you experience a rabbit with EC?

[benjaminbinky]

When my bunny Benjamin had EC he had a slight head tilt too. He also stopped his litter training. He lost a LOT of weight too. Since he’s been treated he’s slowly gaining the weight back and kind of has his litter training back too. He used to almost exclusively use his litter box for poop and pee, nowadays he uses his entire cage for poop and pee though. And he poops at his hay spot that I have out for him when he free roams. It’s not ideal but he keeps his pee in his cage 99% of the time! His belly also looks bigger since he’s lost weight too. If you can,  maybe request a blood test at the vet for EC and start him on panacur while you wait for the results. With Ben his test wouldn’t come back for a week or so after taking it so we started him on panacur just in case, which was a good call because the test came back positive and we were already on the road to recovery.

We wish your Bun a swift recovery <3

[winnie&jinxbuns]

i’m so glad your bunny is doing better! it also makes me feel relieved to hear about your experience, I have been feeling hopeless for a year now having absolutely no idea what was wrong with her. thank you so much for the help, we’ll be seeing the vet on the 18th and i’ll definitely post an update! <3

[DanaNM]

Urinary incontinence is also a huge symptom of EC. That along with the other symptoms (especially the head tilt) would push me to complete the EC treatment. It can take several weeks to see improvement, the full course is 28 days (also feel free to post her med amounts here so we can double check, I had a vet underdosing Panacur at one point).

I had a senior bun that we are 99.9% sure had EC. It didn’t flare until he was at very advanced age, likely due to weakened immune system. The Panacur treatment did help him and it was very well tolerated. The first vet I saw didn’t really believe me when I described his symptoms (he had hind leg weakness, would circle when trying to stand, cataracts, and the urinary incontinence). She begrudgingly prescribed Panacur, but at the wrong dose. This was the second time she had underdosed a med so I finally found a new vet and showed her the video of him circling and she said 100% he had EC (and pointed out he also had a slight head tilt that I didn’t notice). Weight loss is also common with EC. You can try supplementing with a recovery food and probiotic along with the Panacur to help support her nutritionally (I had great results with Emeraid Herbivore Sustain but any brand would be helpful).

EC tests are notoriously unreliable as well (the blood test is better though I’ve heard) so a negative test can’t really be trusted. Many vets will treat on suspicion. I’d say trust your gut on this and it won’t hurt to try the Panacur, just give it some time to work.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[winnie&jinxbuns]

That would be great, I’ll definitely post the dosage here once i’ve spoken to the vet. Her next appointment is the 18th, but I already reached out by email to discuss treating her just in case.

Wow, that’s so frustrating. Sometimes it feels like vets just don’t care. I’m glad you finally found a vet that was taking you seriously. Also yes I’ll look into all of that once Winnie is on Panacur! Thank you for the help 🙂

[LBJ10]

Does your vet treat a lot of rabbits? Some vets will just treat on suspicion since EC is notoriously frustrating when it comes to testing. Treatment is relatively inexpensive and really won’t hurt anything IF the bunny doesn’t actually have EC. As Dana said though, it can take weeks to see improvement after continuous treatment. The symptoms you describe correspond with what would be considered an atypical case of EC. But atypical isn’t all that uncommon anymore. We see it fairly often here on the forum. Bunnies with EC that don’t have the classic seizures, head tilt, hind end weakness, etc.

[winnie&jinxbuns]

Honestly i’m not too sure, my vet doesn’t seem very knowledgeable on rabbits. I know they do get rabbits but i’m not sure to what extent they’re knowledgeable. The fact that they don’t want to treat Winnie on suspicion is what rubs me the wrong way. Today i’m finally going to pick up the panacur to start the 28 days, and they’ve reminded me countless times that they don’t recommend treating her until we know for sure because of side effects, although they’ve tested Winnie for like everything at this point and she seems normal. Like I said in an earlier post, the only thing was her appendix that seemed pretty large. But when discussing it with me, the vet seemed at a loss! She seemed to have zero idea what it could possibly be and that we should just keep testing. So if she’s knowledgeable and she seems to have nothing, why wouldn’t she suggest treating for EC?? Everyone here on the forum has been so kind and alleviated so much of my stress. Thank you all 🙂 I’ll update you in the next few days once Winnie has been taking Panacur consistently. (Btw, the Dr has ONLY gotten panacur ready for me at the counter, should i be worried?)

[Bam]

I dont think you need to worry as long as the dosage and duration of treatment is right. Dosage for e cuniculi is 20 mg per kilo body weight per day, for 28 days. Panacur 10% fenbendazole contains 100 mg per ml.

Non-rabbit vets are as a rule not very rabbit savvy. And rabbit savvy vets are few and far between. In my experience, many vets appreciate a knowledgeable and interested rabbit owner, and are open to suggestions from bun owners who seem to take a vivid interest in their buns.

[winnie&jinxbuns]

Just gave Winnie her first dose and had the scare of a lifetime right before as she almost chocked to death on pellets. She’s ok now but I got so scared that it was a sign to not go through with treatment. Anyway, her dose is 0.34 ml every 24 hours and they gave me nothing else, just the panacur. I’m watching her now and shes just eating normally, so i’ll see how her behavior changes. I also cleaned up the room and switched her pee pads (i line her entire area with pee pads cause she always pees outside the litter) and I changed her litter. Like I said in older posts, her behavior is not what I read up on most of the time on EC. Her symptoms are very mild compared to what i’ve seen in other rabbits, but I really hope i’m making the right decision and that she becomes her normal self. Just happy, curious, sassy, and active! Not to mention to stop the constant fear and paranoia that causes her to circle around the room like a crazy bun, the peeing and pooping everywhere and the slight head tilt. I just want my baby back 🙁

Btw, when should I start seeing changes?

[DanaNM]

It can take several weeks to see improvements in some cases.  Adding an anti-inflammatory such as metacam can help with symptoms in the early phases of treatment.

If it makes you feel better, in some places people will treat all of their rabbits preventatively with Panacur whenever they introduce a new rabbit to the “herd”. My bun would eat his Panacur willingly if I mixed with with some mashed banana.

One thing with EC that’s hard is the damage to the nervous system is permanent, so it’s really a question of which symptoms are due to inflammation (and thus will get better as the parasite is cleared) and which are due to permanent damage. In my bun’s case, he never got the strength back in his hind legs, but he stopped circling and his tilt got better. My bun was also very very old, so things can vary a lot per individual.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[benjaminbinky]

I second the post above – Benjamin always has a very slight head tilt to the left even a year after treatment. This second EC flair his head tilt became even more prominent during treatment but a couple of weeks into the panacur course his head tilt went back to his regular slightly-tilted manner. We’re still working on getting his weight and muscle back, but that takes time with any creature. Keep us posted! We’re here for you and wishing your bunny a swift and easy recovery 🙂

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