Changing group dynamics

[kralspace]

These crazy rabbits.

They’ve now been together in the room for a week and half. It’s been exciting, fun and frustrating. At first the couples took up opposite corners. Then for two days, I found them all mingled together peacefully. Then Lola began teasing or taunting, I’m not sure which, but she seems to bring out the worst in the others.

The last few days have been like this. I don’t see the others bullying Lola as much as I see her deliberately aggravate each individually and they give chase and try to fight her. The boys are responding to it less and less, but it aggravates Pringles to no end and there will be a lot of rex fur on the floor.

I’ve put P/L in the box so much they think they live there. In the box they are completely mild and huddle together meekly. I’ve squirted them endlessly. It doesn’t faze Lola, but it slows Pringles down some of the time. I’ve been using the body block on Pringles with a treat like you would a dog and  she stops and backs away, and it seems to do a bit more good.

Anytime I leave a bunny room door open Lola zips through and hides somewhere in the house for the day and I wind up leaving food and water in the hallway. On days when I leave the door open for everyone, no one really leaves except Lola. Unless she goes back to taunt and then she comes flying by with someone snapping at her butt.

Last night I finally got her from under the couch and took her back to the room. Since the only ‘hiding’ spot is behind the feed tubs and the others are always back there I found another box to put by Lola’s chosen litterbox and made sure it had an escape door in each side and she could keep an eye on the others. it seemed to make her less anxious to have a place to lay that wasn’t in the open and she didn’t bother the others too much the rest of the night. I’m curious to see how much white fur in on the floor this evening.

Pringles came over to sniff it but I blocked her away when the tail went up and she seemed to lose interest. Daisy and Toby took turns going in and lounging with Lola and she seemed relieved to have a place. Daisy gave her a good cleaning. Maybe all the open space unnerved her? I may try adding another box or two with lots of openings so even if there’s a chase, no one gets cornered.

I don’t mean it to sound all bad, there are so many lovely changes in the other three and I’m glad I’ve done it. It would have been worth it just to see how poor little Daisy has come out of his traumatized state and so enjoys the freedom. Pringles and Toby always seem happy and hang out a lot with Daisy, who will groom them all.

I keep thinking of the advice about not letting the three isolate the fourth, but what if the fourth is the one doing the isolation?

I would appreciate your opinions and suggestions…..do you think Lola will finally adjust with time?

 

[Sarita]

Oh Lola! It sounds like you have a very good plan in my opinion.

I imagine she will have to adjust in time. Some rabbits are just more stubborn than others. And like you’ve said, it’s only been a week and a half.

I think if you can get them co-habitat without incident that would be good. The don’t have to love each other and groom each other – that may eventually come in time though.

I have to wonder too how the group dynamic is going to change once you get Charlie in there…will be waiting to hear about that when the time comes.

Let us know what you find when you get home.

[kralspace]

Maybe Charlie will take to Lola? That joke someone made a while back about Pringles getting a harem seems to be coming true. She loves to stretch out with a guy on each side. The boys do like Lola too, she just makes it hard for them to get along.

I’ve always admired my pets that are the most strong willed and temperment. Having to work on the relationship with them just seems to make it stronger and I have a lot of respect for them. and those teeth.

[Sarita]

I’d love to see a picture of Pringles with her harem :~)

I don’t know why Lola is so strong willed…maybe it’s from having a permanent place. She probably went through 4 or 5 “homes” before she came to you. It could be that the change is making her anxious (and cranky).

[kralspace]

I have the house 99.9% bunny proofed (Michael will sometimes forget to put his game controller behind the fence when he goes to bed) so Lola being free range would not be that much of a problem. It’s just that she always looked so happy snuggling with Daisy that I don’t want to give up on her living with the group, but it could be a last resort. Maybe it’s jealousy at Pringles, but dang she’s got to learn that bunny is twice her size and won’t take that off of her. I just feel bad that she’s unhappy.

[Sarita]

I bet Petzy will have some insight for you when she gets on-line.

[Deleted User]

My ears were ringing.
I was waiting for this post, kralspce! In a herd it takes some time sometimes to see the dynamics.
Let me ask: are you positive there have been no fights? Will the three when they are together let Lola join them, have you seen them do?
This was a huge change and Lola will need time to adjust. Make sure she is doing all her routines.
You must have paired sessions with Lola and the others, one at a time. Also, you should cement them in a much smaller space.
About Charlie, I think it would be worth a try to include him as soon as he is ready (hormones bye-bye). He may cause a huge upset in the group and you will need a neutral space to add him in, most likely in paired sessions. I am actually more concerned for him than for Lola. Lola will get used to the new life she has now.

[kralspace]

Hi Petzy!

I try to be in the bunny room or as close as I can to it the whole time I’m home.From anywhere in the house I can hear when someone scrabbles on the floor trying to run or bumps into something, their door has a window so I can watch from the kitchen. Lola is shedding heavily so it doesn’t take much to jerk some out. I sit in there reading a lot, especially when I feed to make sure everyone’s eating and I don’t turn the light out at night until they’re all settled somewhere.

I came home tonight and found only 2 tuffs of white hair, both near Lola’s corner. Everyone seemed calm and were lounging around out in the open. Lola seemed more settled and didn’t try to escape when I came in.

It’s been a while since I brought one home from a neuter, should I take Charlie’s litterbox out and just put a bit of eating hay in the corner? I scrubbed the litterbox and put clean coastal but didn’t know if it would be too scratchy for him to sit in. I put towels and sheepskin everywhere else.

[kralspace]

If Lola approaches the trio normally, whether they are in a group or individually, no one even notices, they just merge together without trying. I’ve seen them do it even yesterday behind the blue tub IF Lola doesn’t cop that attitude. If she behaves normally everything is fine. Even with Pringles, they can be lounging about a foot apart or eating next to each other. It’s just that little stance she takes sometimes that seems to drive them nuts.

Sarita said she’d had several homes and lived at the sanctuary before coming home with us, maybe the change is just harder for her. She did like to do that strutting and taunting before Pringle’s condo while out on her playtimes before, when Pringles couldn’t get to her.

You mean cementing all of them in an area much smaller than the bunny room? like how big in grid size? for sessions or leaving them all day? Maybe I should put Lola and someone in the carrier and take them to work with me. They sure would be in close quarters.

[kralspace]

Tonight Lola left the bunny room for an hour but returned on her own while I was sweeping and cleaning up. No new fur on the floor from the day, still lots of poops. No one was snuggling, but all were mingling loosely out in the open for greens. Pringles and Lola touched noses twice, but when Pringles fluffed slightly Lola hopped away. Like last night Daisy and Toby visited Lola in her box and groomed her, Daisy thoroughly, Toby just a few licks.

I pampered Lola a bit and replaced her box rag with a big towel and sheepskin mat. Pringles just did her own thing. She checked out Lolas ‘area’ but didn’t try to invade.

I sat on the floor with a banana and got swamped. I had all of them climbing on me, each other but no fighting or snapping. If they didn’t get one, they just kept begging for the next one.

[Sarita]

Well it sounded like a good day yesterday! I imagine it’s going to take a little longer to get the group dynamics worked out. I’m wondering if Lola is cranky because she’s also shedding.

[Deleted User]

If they do mingle at times in your bunny room maybe it is best not to change anything. Just let time work it out. It sounds like Lola is more shy than anything. She may get stressed out unduly in too close of quarters. You know her best.

I have moved my outdoor pen recently to a more shady spot, and been watching my four closely. Their dynamics have changed too. They have been a quartet for over half a year and Mops and Deirdra were the closest, with Neigey bullying Lint daily but with Lint’s permission, and with Deirdra chasing Neigey pretty regularly. I have been putting them outside first thing in the morning and brought them in with the dogs at around ten (sun doesn’t set til eleven). Lint and Deirdra are closer than ever, it is incredible. And Deirdra NEVER chases Neigey anymore. She will even allow him in small quarters with her such as their litter cages I supplied. This is to say that it can take an enormous amount of time for rabbits to settle together and in my case, the habitat changes were crucial.

–You mean to start bonding Charlie already?

[kralspace]

Sarita, she is shedding heavily, poor girl. It’s a slow one this time taking forever it seems.

Petzy, I’m not planning on starting with Charlie for at least a month, to let him heal and settle, but he’s one anxious dude, wanting to get down there and play or whatever it is he has in mind.

There was no fur on the floor at all when I got home and peeked in. Pringles was on the table by the window (her favorite spot) and the other three were hanging out together on the rug. Daisy was grooming Lola and Daisy. They’re all out and about the house tonight and everything seems cool for now.

I did get tickled, a bit ago Lola ran by then ran back to the bunny room. A minute later she ran by with Toby behind her and they jumped in the litterbox behind the stove. A few minutes later Pringles runs in, touches noses with Toby and then runs back to the bunny room with him. Jealous girls.

I’m always interested in the plot twists of your group. That’s great about Lint and Deirdra. I hope my bunch sorts it out, it’s only going on 2 weeks and I count my blessings that no ones drawn blood.

 

Edited to clarify: Lola enticed Toby into the living room with her but Pringles quickly reclaimed him. Something about those crooked teeth really attracts the ladies

[Deleted User]

I think yours are settling nicely, too. It does take time. You can tell the signs, the body language of trouble. I think Lola is really just overwhelmed a little.
I have to hate you for getting a quartet together without any attacks! j/k!

[Deleted User]

[kralspace]

Oh that photos just too darling! If things are going well here, it’s because of the rabbits, not from any skill I wish I had   😉

here’s the boys chilling out tonight:

and Pringles surveying her kingdom, Lolas taking a walk-about right now.

[Deleted User]

It’s a fantastic setup they have. Love the flooring. I have a feeling it’s the space change that really did it for you.

[jerseygirl]

Daisy!          *sigh*  

[kralspace]

I know jerseygirl, he never relaxed this much in the condo, as spacious as it was. Just before I clicked the button, he had his front feet stretched way out with his head down on them sleeping, it was so cute!

I think the flooring has helped stop possible carnage. at first I had only the 3×5 carpet in front of the big litterbox and the runner in the middle of the floor. All of them are used to getting around carefully on slippery floors so the chases were in slow motion compared to what they would have done if the entire floor was carpeted or covered in rugs…lol

As they settle down, I’ve been adding more rugs to help them get around.

[kralspace]

the last two days have been great. In a few hours my daughter and 4 yr old granddaughter and 5 yr old grandson will be here to spend the night. This will be the first time I’ve had people in the house since creating the bunny room.

Should be interesting to see if the bunnies choose to disappear like my cats do.

This should be the mother of all stress tests and may help cement them all together once and for all!

[Deleted User]

Neigey is being nasty to Lint. He pulled out a chunk of his fur and growls at him any chance he gets. Lint has become my bottom bunny. Neigey may look like a sugar lump but he isn’t sweet at all. He is like a little angry person. He is turning one this month. I hope he will mellow out… (unlikely…)
Lint is OK with it, though, for some strange reason he takes any abuse from Neigey… they’re like brothers.
Sorry, krals, this has nothing to do with yours… or maybe everything: groups are always changing…

[kralspace]

I think it has everything to do with the topic, Petzy.

Maybe it’s the small white rabbit attitude. 10:30 and we just finished fireworks, maybe everyone will settle down now. Pringles has ventured out once or twice, Lola parked herself by the table and tried begging food. Toby and Daisy have not been seen in a while

[kralspace]

I love the group. Still no Lola hair, but poop is still plentiful, the pee puddles are slowly decreasing. It’s not unusual to walk in the room and all four are lounging within a few feet of each other and seeing different couple combinations (except for a P/L) The last 3 meals had Lola eating right next to Pringles, actually pressed against her at times.

Daisy seems to have opened a Hare Hair Salon up on the window box. He grooms anyone who comes up there. Once he was working on Pringles and Toby at one time. Guess he double-booked his appointments 😉

As soon as I get home, Lola is anxious to get out of the room and go lounge around the living room for an hour or so, but then she’s go back. Guess she just needs a little alone time.

[Deleted User]

Posted By kralspace on 07/07/2010 06:23 AM
  all four are lounging within a few feet of each other and seeing different couple combinations (except for a P/L) 

 

that’s what you are looking for, different couple combinations. If you want to speed up the P/L bond, you can stress these two in a few sessions together.

[Sarita]

That’s so funny about Daisy and the Hare Salon LOL.

[kralspace]

I think Daisy is really happy having so much work to do. He’s always been handsome but his coat is positively glossy now and I don’t see that frozen ‘tharn’ posture anymore.

I didn’t do a ‘stress bonding’ with P/L last night, but while I was trying out the cheek rub on Lola again, Pringles came bouncing over and laid nose to nose to Lola demanding her share too. They didn’t fight and even moved to that their heads were side by side during the petting. After I quit, Pringles just moseyed on off. Freaky.

[mrmac]

Who knew cheek rubs would solve everything! They change into different bunnies for cheeky rubs! My bunnies like their alone times too, all of them have their little lonesome periods during the day. I am so glad everybun is still getting along so well!

[Deleted User]

Daisy is a boy?

[kralspace]

yep, we’re a gender-challenged family when it comes to naming pets. My very male siamese cat is Katie.

The feed store guaranteed that Pringles was a boy, Petco swore Daisy was a girl so it swapped out well when we really found out.

[Deleted User]

–“A Boy Named Sue”

[kralspace]

The vet says that’s why he’s so mean (Katie). Luckily I got it right with my son and daughter!

[Deleted User]

Oh man! That IS lucky… I guess.

[kralspace]

Poo, poo, poo, now what do I do? Toby is a bit greedy. He was seized by the Waco shelter as a neglect/cruelty case, nearly starved to death because of his overgrown teeth. He’s always chowed down like it’s his last meal and I really can’t blame the poor little guy.

In their condo, I always made sure at least half the veggies were sliced and torn up small enough he could eat even when his teeth were getting a bit long. In watching them closely all night, I realize Lola has decided she likes them that way too and is chasing him away from the food and it’s his hair I found this morning and this afternoon. I stressed T/L for about half an hour in the cube and turned them loose. They seem ok but Toby’s reluctant to go near the food if Lola’s there and if I put his somewhere else Lola’s over there immediately.

I guess besides continuing to stress them together I’ll have to chop up more of the veggies so Toby’s got a chance of getting his share. and maybe put the piles at opposite ends of the room?

Lola, Lola, Lola………give me a break!

[jerseygirl]

What about putting Toby and his food in the cube together?

[Deleted User]

krals, you just have to cut more veggies, I’m afraid. These things will all settle over time, but it can take some months. For the first while after I bonded my quartet, Neigey couldn’t get his pellets because Lint and Deirdra wouldn’t let him. I would give him some separately for a while but eventually I took them all off pellets altogether anyways.
The plucked fur will be there sometimes, I find some a twice a week, from differet bunnies in my pen. It just means somebunny got disgruntled at somebunny else. Hey, better that it’s fur than blood, right?

[kralspace]

You’re right, I’m just a little overprotective of my little guys. I’ve only found one bite, that on Lola’s butt a few days ago, but I cleaned it and treated it and it seems to be healing up ok. I guess it’s the hay that provides the long fiber for them, I don’t cut up the parsley because he can pull that in like spaghetti. I cut the larger leafy vegs up into long strips for the same reason and grate his carrots..

On a positive note, this went on for an hour this morning………they were sleeping so deeply I could step over them without disturbing them!

 

[Author]

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