Buldgy Eye = ?

[Andi]

We have another Vet trip booked today, this one for PitStop my dwarf forever foster.

Pitters has a cronic paturella, it’s mostly under control but at times it flares up, as it had recently. He was on baytril for that and he’d been looking great the last few weeks… Until last night. I went to whipe his eyes as i notices he had eye gookies (which is normal for him), but I noticed he also looked more lopsided then usual. His face is lopsided as when he was rescued he had a large abcess on the left side of his head, when they stitched it up after removal, it sorta gave him a facelift.
The white gookie didn’t whipe away, it was the actual white of his eyeball showing in the lower corner, and that eye (right) is buldging. he is eating and taking treats, he even played ball with me, but I can tell he is ‘off’.

Any ideas what all can cause an eye to buldge?  The eye itself looks good. I have a funny feeling abcess/tumor behind the eye
Just typing that makes me want to cry, Pitters is such a special bunny to me, he’s bonded to me like no other bunny. That said my Degu Bruce has a tumor behind one eye and he’s old as dirt and fiesty LOL.. so ‘thinking positive’

 

[jerseygirl]

I’m sorry to say it but with his history of Pasturella and abscess……I’d be guessing it’s return abscess too. If he was treated successfully for it before, he can be again (also thinking positive). {{{Pitters}}} {{{Andi}}} vibes for you too and your crew. When it rains it pours eh?!

[lashkay]

Malocclusion in abnormal growth of the teeth can cause the eye to bulge and and can also cause abscesses. A vet knowledgeable with rabbits can check for that and hopefully then, eliminate the problem that is the cause of the eye bulging and abscesses developing by trimming the teeth or dental surgery.

[Andi]

It’s just the pasturella again, his mouth and eyes are actually A-OK, it’s the eye lids that are swollen Honestly I can see that now, but looking at him, geeze it was so sad.
Because this is ongoing, we’re now going to try 6 weeks of baytril, if that doesn’t kick it he wil be on Baytril the rest of his life
With that said, my Degu was supposed to be a bayril forever with the tumor in his head and other isssues with his blocked tear duct causing infection. After a long haul of medication he’s not needed it again in many months. So i am hoping this long dose for Pitters will do the same thing

Because I am the queen of Baytril I am just buying the large bottle to keep on hand, this will make it much easier for me, and for my clinic not having to dispense little viles each time LOL. I wasn’t sure my Vet tech would give him back yesterday, she fell for him LOL, said he is the sweetest most relaxed bunny she’s ever met (And well he is, that’s why he’s my boy! lol)

Pitter’s is still eating and active, he’s enjoying the new attention from Ani, she’s sleeping with him AND grooming him now (Whicj looks funny b/c she is bigger then him)

Thanks everyone

[Sarita]

Have you considered doing a nebulizer for him? You can use amakacin in a nebulizer and many people have had successes with this. It’s just a different way of administering meds.

[Andi]

Honestly I’ve never even heard of people useing a nebulizer to administer meds to pets, that’s very new to me.
How does it work, how well does the animals take it?
I’m giving the baytril oral right now. It’s not a big deal, He takes it quite well.

[Deleted User]

I would take him to the vet to have the swollen eye lids looked at. Those can be a sign of a number of things, you’d want to know what it is.

[Sarita]

This is a link from a guinea pig rescue but it’s how I made mine when I did it – been a long while though.  I also know that Wendy has nebulized her Pepper who has Pasturella – I’ll have to search for the thread.

homepage.mac.com/nalyne/nebulizer/PhotoAlbum30.html

 

[Sarita]

Here’s Wendy’s website:

community.livejournal.com/snufflebuns/

[Andi]

LOL… I picked him up from the vet last night, this was the disgnosis.
She looked in his mouth, there was no swelling everything looked great (He was JUST there and had his teeth checked b4 as well), she checked his eyes and was able to press on them and move them and them move back (so nothing behind them).

Wow, that nebulizer looks kinda scarey, I could see a bunny being stressed out in a box like that. I was pictuing a small facemask, which i think would be less stressful. I can also give the med’s Sub-Q, though I don’t like to with such small bunnies like him.

I’m going to follow my Vets instructions, and see how things go. If there is no improvment even in a couple weeks I will tell her about the nebulizer and see if we want to try another meathod and/or drug. She’s very good at looking into alternative meathods and such, adn I trust her opinion and judgment.

[Sarita]

I think a mask would be much more scary to a rabbit than a box. The rabbit I nebulized would just stick him in there with a towel and he’d dig around on the towel…he was fine.

[Andi]

What were you treating and how long did you have to do this before it was gone? How big was the box? And how long did the medicating usually take? Do you do the same amount of medication as you would orally?
Where would you get a pump? It looks like quite an expensive investment.
Your right, the mask would probably be more difficult as many buns don’t want their faces touched. Maybe I’m thinking more towards my own claustrophobia :p

[Sarita]

Here’s a great explanation from Wendy on her set up and how long it took her each time to medicate Pepper:

community.livejournal.com/snufflebuns/4878.html#cutid1

I bought my nebulizer off of ebay – I bought a sport nebulizer – you just have to adapt it for the box.  

[Andi]

Question – Why amakacin? I read that the lady on the website also used this drug. I mentioned it to a rabbit savvey friend and her responce was …

“many of the penicillin drugs will kill rabbits ……. as well, that specific drug is hard on kidneys so older buns or buns with kidney problems should not use it……that would mean regular blood work to assess kidney function ”

So i am curious if baytril could be substituted in the nebulizer? or?
I am trying to put a bunch of information together to go over with my Vet, as one of my other bunnies has a runny nose this week. Seems the internet is full of ‘crap’ and half of the stuff I am reading online is not even true So I am trying to find things only written by Vets to take my info from when I am reading *sigh* so confusing, all i want is happy healthy bunnies.

[Sarita]

I can tell you that Amikacin is used alot by vets in the US for rabbits. It has been used with great success.

Have you talked to your vet about it? As with any drug there is always going to be some side effects but it’s up to you and your vet to discuss that and determine if the benefits outweigh the risks.

I don’t think that amikacin is a penicillin based drug.

[Andi]

I’ve not sat down with my Vet yet over this, I’m still compiling information. We have a 6 week treatment in progress with PitStop, so i hope to have the info before our appointment at the end of that.
I had not heard of Amikacin until i read of it here. I googled it and only came up with…
“Side effects of amikacin are similar to other aminoglycosides. Kidney damage and hearing loss are the most important effects. Because of this potential, blood levels of the drug and markers of kidney function (creatinine) may be monitored.”
Not what family of drugs it is in, but like you said “with any drug there is always going to be some side effects” , and that is so true. Hence why i hate drugs LOL

[Sarita]

Here’s a good article:

http://www.ontariorabbits.org/health/healthinfo14.html

 

[Andi]

oohh, nice. Thank you, added that one to my list

[jerseygirl]

Andi, could your friend have been thinking of Amoxicillin maybe? There are some cautions around that antibiotic. It is similar sounding to amikacin…

[Andi]

I doubt it, she’s the most rabbit Savvey person i know. She get’s all her information from the rescues main rabbit Vet, he lends her Vet text/papers to get her info from and she’s been doing this years.

[Sarita]

I’m surprised she has not nebulized rabbits – its so common here in the US for rabbits and for guinea pigs and has been for quite a while.

Here’s a link from Dana Krempels on this:

en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/200…tter-1.htm

I was a little confused too about the mention of penicillin since that’s not what amikacin is. 

 

 

[Andi]

I’m sending the links, with a bunch of questions to my Vet. There is just to many mixed responces from people and from readings for me to decipher what is true/right/wrong and what not.
This way if she doesn’t know, she can research the Vet sites etc. and find me more info as well.
Also, my Rabbit was not always treated by this Vet, he is a rescue/foster and has not always showed signs of pasturella while in my care. So her not mentioning a Nebulizer could be for any reason, he is a new paitent and she doesn’t try and get me to spend any extra money if we can try something less expensive first (I probably have THE thickest file in their office, LOL, I spend so much $$ there with so many different animals, mostly the dog though). We have a 6 week antibiotic run we are finishing first before we decide where to go from here, and so far he has improved 50% in these first few weeks so that is why we can going to continue, as there has been improvement.

[Sarita]

Has he ever had a culture and sensitivity test done?

[wendyzski]

I’m glad to see that people are referencing my old snufflebuns posts – this is exactly what I hoped that it could be – a handy collection of info, tips and contact info.

Maybe your bun could handle the mask, but my little spitfire PepperBun would probably try to eat my face if I tried it!  She doesn’t really like the StinkyBox although she has gotten more used to it over time – less panicked digging and more disgruntled fussing.  At first she would only calm down if I stayed where she could see and hear me, bit now it’s more liek “Oh crap, not THIS again…*digdigdig nibble*”.  With the occasional solid THUMP to make sure I still now she’s annoyed with me.

But of course as soon as I take her out she runrunruns to the kitchen and stands under the shelves where she knows I keep the treats.

It’s been nearly 5 weeks since she’s needed a treatment – she seems to do better in the summertime so I wonder if there is a humidity factor in her exacerbations. But it’s probably going to be a lifetime thing with her so we just suck it up and do the best we can.

If I can answer any questions you have directly, don’t hesitate to send me an e-mail.  I remember the utter panic I had when she was 1st diagnosed, and we went through a LOT of trial and error on this, so maybe something we did could be of assistance to you.

[Andi]

Thanks everyone for your information/experiances/questions and such.

My Vet got back to me with information and my questions answered, plus she is going to get some print outs about it for me as well.
One thing I was a bit disapointed with when reading the billion links online was that I never read about it coming back, it was more like ‘this is the cure”  when in fact there is no cure.  This whole time I’ve been wondering why does my rabbit continue to have the symptoms year after year coming back. I also didn’t read about pasurella living in other areas of the body, other then the lungs which is false it can pretty much go anywhere. I guess it’s hard too though, being it has so many different symptoms and areas to inhabit so not everyones rabbits are going have the same reactions etc. if any!
I look forward to learning a bit more from the information that will be sent to me. But I probably will no longer do my research on this condition online. I found it may me way more panicked then i probably needed to be.

I’ll post the email I got back, maybe it will be helpful to others who had questions like mine

Hi Andrea

First of all, you will never be free of Pasturella. It is a horrible, insidious bacterium that is not killed by antibiotics. That is the problem! We can knock it back but we can’t get rid of it. And it can affect any and all organ systems. It is the main reason we see sudden anaesthetic death in rabbits. You can have no clinical signs and then, boom, you have a lethal abscess somewhere. We manage Pasturella, we don’t get rid of it.

Baytril is still the main antibiotics. Amikacin and Gentomycin are not penicillins (lots of people think all antibiotics belong in this class…not – it is an aminoglycoside – and yes, it is nephrotoxic – damaging to the kidneys). Nebulizing may help in the lungs…but not if the Pasteurella is anywhere else.

Universities with Pasturella free colonies are obtained via c-section. And they have very strict policies on entry/exit. They guard these rabbits! No one who has handled another rabbit can come in. They must shower and have a change of clothes. Because once it gets into a colony, you need to wipe out the colony and start over.

I’ll address some of your questions below:

I haven’t had time to check out the internet sites yet. I will get back to you when I can and i will try to pull out some of the vet sites for you…print them out and send them to you.
 

QUESTIONS:

1) Is pasturella passed from one bunny to the next, or is it something they all have that only shows signs in older/sick/low immune system rabbits?
It is in all the rabbits. In some rabbits it doesn’t cause an issue. In other’s you can’t control it. Immune compromise will worsen the situation.

2)Was pasturella the cause of Bo’s abscess on his Kidney?
It could well have been the cause. A definite possibility.

3) The swab that is used to test the rabbits for the bacteria, is it worth testing? 
It will probably test positive. And even if it was negative…you could still have Pasteurella some where else.

4) Can I ever get a pasturella free rabbit home with my current rabbits?
No. You would need to clear out all rabbits and get one from the university colonies.

5) Some days I wonder if it’d be easier to treat for mites then this pasturella. Bubba is the 4th rabbit in my colony showing signs, 2 of the others have passed away (Bo & Mittens). I also like to take my rabbits to ‘bunny parties’ but am afraid that I could spread this to other people’s bunnies.
Chances are…the other rabbits have Pasteurella too.
 

So that’s my update.
I have Started Bubba on antibiotics as well, and PitStop is still on a few more weeks for his before we go back in for a visit.  My next questions will revolve around if PitStops pasturella is in the lungs, and if the Nebulizer would be a suitable treatment for him. He is my chronic case. I probably would contine to treat with the Baytril as is does help my rabbits this far (Though a miracle cure would do me just fine too :p )

[jerseygirl]

What a good response. Your vet is straight up with the facts. Thanks for sharing the info, I know I’ve learnt more now.

[Andi]

She sent me two more responces, and my Hubby is picking up the printed out information for me to read today (Weekly Vet trip *sigh*).

Hi Andrea…more info!

 

I have looked over the vet stuff. Lots and lots of debate – those thinking Pasturella is significant…those thinking it is not. Some think it is overdiagnosed. Some think that the ‘bunny people’ make a bigger deal about it than it is. Others think it is really significant and things like Pasturella septicemia is a serious issue.

 

So – if the rabbit vets can’t agree, don’t expect anyone else too either. We just don’t know enough.

 

Generally, the view is that stress plays a major role. Hence you will see a greater incidence in rescue situations. (That would be your plague.). That is one area most agree upon.

 

The general agreement is that baytril is the treatment of choice. And the cultures are only ok (and I mean just ok) if they are anesthetized and swabbed with a guarded swab very very deeply into the nasal passages. Most don’t bother.

 

I did print out one of the articles that had some good debate and its at the front counter for you to pick up when you come in on Monday.

 

I’ll go look at those sites now.

 

And more.

 

The nebulization questions is an interesting one. So I searched it out. It was quite popular in 2007/2008 with a handful of vets. The verdict was not in yet as to whether or not it did any good.  No one knew if it helped. The view in 2010 seems to be…use it if you like, but just use saline. All it does is loosen the mucous. Most felt there were better ways to spend the money. And some worried that to get proper nebulization, the temperature in the enclosure would become too high (so the rabbits should have ice packs in the chamber with them).

 

Hope that helps.

I’m excited to read a little bit more.
I’m Happy to Say PitStop is looking much better, he is VERY active and silly. I have however moved him adn his roommates into a new pen, so let’s hope this won’t stress him out to much. I’m going to go post some pic’s of the new setup

 

[wendyzski]

Any evidence I have is of course going to be anecdotal, but the amakacin works for Pepper when nothing else does.  Baytril was ineffective, as was chloramphenicol.  We did culture to get the particular strain (they did a nasal flush and cultured the debris).  Because I suffer from chronic lung conditions, I often have the humidity quite high in my home, and I never found that to really affect her so I am not sure that saline would work.  Yes it does get warm in the enclosure, but as treatment only takes 10-15 minutes i’ve never really worried about it.

Mostly I wanted to offer our experiences as a possible “well, why don’t we try…” option.  I remember being terrified when Pepper was first diagnosed because everything online was horrible old data about how fatal it is.  At a couple of points her symptoms got very severe – she was gurgling when she breathed, snorting bunny-boogers, and generally miserable.  Now she’s like me – we have to watch her because she’ll get sick fairly easily, but in general she’s a happy bouncy bunbun.

[Author]

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