Broken bond after spaying sisters (sorry so long)

[graycapitolium]

My name is Sadie and I am new to the forums.

I have two 1.5 year old lop/something littermates, Juno and Minerva, who I adopted last March. Juno had been bred once by their previous owners but Minno was not. For the first few months they were bonded (groomed and snuggled all of the time and shared the same cage) and both were rather docile but did not really like me to pet them.

However, after I had both spayed at the same time in August and had to keep them apart for several weeks (in side by side cages), they decided that they pretty much hated each other. Minno also decided that she liked me even less and started nipping whenever I got my hands close to her. I was heartbroken but I assumed that I would be able to get them back together easily. I was wrong.

I ended up getting them a two story leith bunny condo and I switch them back and forth daily with the rabbit on the first floor having run of their bunny-proofed room.

I have been working on and off with them since August trying to rebond them. I started off putting them in the bathtub together where there would be some ignoring, some grooming (always by Minno who then tries desprately to get Juno to groom her by putting her her head under Juno’s chin) but which always ended up in one nipping the other on the bum or belly and then boxing and then all out fighting with fur flying.

So, I gave it a rest for a few weeks and tried again. They lasted a bit longer (15 to 20 minutes) but still ended up in a ball of flying fur.

Again I gave it a rest for a while and started over int eh bathtub.

I then had an incident where one got out of the cage when the other was on exercise where they started fighting and when I tried to break them up I was bitten very badly.

So, again another rest. (and lesson learned to always have thick gloves about)

I have just started again in the past few weeks using the entire bathroom where for the most part, they stay at opposite ends of the room while I sit in the tub with a spray bottle in case they start fighting. I had a successful day on last Tuesday when I put some vanilla on their noses with no fighting and each of them eating a bit of pear off of my bathroom scale which was at the midpoint in the room. Then Thursday (also vanilla’ed) they sat closer together with some nipping but no grooming.   Friday there was an all out brawl.

So I thought I ‘d try something different and I got an xpen on Monday and set it up in the dining room.  I put them both in their carrier (where they were fine) and took them down to the pen.  There was some rough grooming from Minno and then nipping and boxing and flying fur.  Yesterday I put them in it again and they started going at it almost immeadiately, to the point that I reconfigured the xpen so that they are next to each other but there are two panels between them.  They still want to get at each other through the panels, but can’t do any damage.

I am wondering if I am doing this all correctly. And if it is ever likely that they will be friends again.

I would like to know from someone who has more experience than I (they are my first buns):

How can I tell if the nipping is getting out of hand? I don’t want to learn by having to make an emegency vet run.

Is any fur pulling too much fur pulling as long as there is no laceration or blood?

Am I just overreacting to them working out who’s dominant?

Is any boxing ok, or should I break them up immediately if that starts?

If they do start what I think is actual fighting, should I end the session entirely or spray them with the water bottle and keep going?

And finally, should I be having sessions with definite time limits or can I have them together as long as there is no fighting?

On a second topic (which I can post somewhere else if need be) I’d also like some advice on how to teach Minno that it’s not ok to bite me hard enough to draw blood. I understand that rabbits nip to communicate with each other but I don’t have the furry protection that Juno does.  I’m not looking for her to be a cuddle-bunny or even want me to pet her, just to have fewer scars on my hands.  And while Minno hates me, Juno has started licking my nose every time I go in to greet her as well as presenting her hed for scratches.

Thank you for any help you can provide me.

Sadie, Minno and Juno

[Deleted User]

Welcome to binkybunny!

here is what I would do: I would always wear thick gloves and not worry about teaching her not to bite you until a later point, once they are bonded. She may bite you b/c you have the other rabbit’s scent on you.

Next, at this point, after all this scuffling/fighting and no success, I would step up the control: I would let them be nasty NO MORE. I would hold a number of quiet sessions where they are only allowed to SIT. Nothing else. Can be in the tub, or a box. You will need to be very hands-on to achieve this. You might like to try introducing a damp cloth to the sessions with which you wipe their foreheads in turns to imitate grooms/licks. I would also include a stunt double (plushy) to break up the face-to-face focus. The stunt double should be infused with fur from both rabbits. It may take a while of just repeating the quiet sessions over and over before you can trust them more to work things out without your hands on them, best way to transition from hands-on to sitting losely would be during car rides. If you have soomeone to drive you, you can start car rides immediately too.

[graycapitolium]

Thank you Petzy.

When they are sitting together does it matter if they are facing or side by side? I can facilitate either in the tub
And should they be short sessions? 15-20 minutes? Once a day or more often?

Sadie, Minno and Juno

[Deleted User]

Short sesions in the beginning like you said, but twice a day would get you results faster. Then, if you see good signs, you can lengthen the time. There will be setbacks, but use the damp cloth as a soother technique. That’s what I would do.

[graycapitolium]

I have been doing one 15 minute session in the bathtub per day using a damp washcloth on faces and ears and petting both of the girls to mix up their scents. They are just allowed to sit next to each other, no hopping about. I have not been able to get a stunt bunny yet but will be looking for one this weekend.

Today was a good day with alternating facial grooming. Usually it’s just Minnie doing some grooming then shoving her head under Juno’s to wait for licks that never come. I will hope for more of the same tomorrow.

[graycapitolium]

Again today there was a lot of mutual grooming. That is a good thing, right?

[graycapitolium]

Day three of mutual grooming. No fights or nips all week. They just sit in the tub and groom back and forth sometimes takin breaks to wash their own faces. While this is adorable, I’m guessing they need to learn how to chill together too.

What should my next move be? Keep doing this? Try feeding them together? Try them in an xpen? Or the rest if the bathroom?

[Deleted User]

You can definitely move the sessions to a neutral pen if they are this friendly with each other.

[graycapitolium]

It’s been a while since I started this thread. My life got a little complicated so I had to stop the bonding sessions for a while. I’m back at it now.

I had the girls in the tub every day for about a week with mutual grooming, each of them grooming themselves, eating together, and some flopping. So yesterday I moved on to a small sunroom that they had never been in before. Again they groomed each other, there was some exploring and a lot of flopping, some of which I’d call snuggling.

Tonight, I put them back in the room and they kept nipping at each other, tails raised so I kept spraying them with the water bottle. Then they calmed down, flopped (Minnie doing a full side flop for the first time in months) and then they groomed themselves. Minnie got up an groomed Juno a bit and then as Minnie hopped away Juno attacked her and I had a ball of flying fur.

I am determined to bond them come hell or high water so my first question is whether I need to go back to the bathtub and start over. (I did put them in there at the end of the session after the fight an waited until thy started grooming each other again so that they’ll have that as last contact instead of the fight) My second is how do I know when to intervene? I don’t want them to get hurt but I know they have to figure out who’s the alpha which I don’t think has happened yet. Is any pulled fur too much? Is any nipping too much? Is there a way to salvage a bonding session that seems to have taken a turn for the worst?

[Monkeybun]

I had some nipping from my girls during bonding. How bad is it? Is it continuous or do they stop?

[graycapitolium]

Last night they seemed more on edge and the nipping was intermittent. It stopped and Minnie groomed Juno. They seemed really relaxed for a while and then out of nowhere Juno attacked.

[longhairmike]

mine never rebonded after spaying, and that was 6 and a half years ago…

[Tate]

Have you read this (http://www.saveabunny.org/rabbitcare/bonding-guide) from SaveABunny? It seems like you have done quite a few/all of their techniques, but it still might be helpful to read. I thought the section, “A fight vs. a fight” was interesting… she points out when it looks like a fight is due to dominance or if it’s due to actual hate.

[graycapitolium]

@longhairmike that is pretty discouraging. I am more or less ok with them being single buns as they’ve been living that way since august (sharing a divided 2 story condo and alternating the floors so that the downstairs bun has the ability to run around during the say) but I’d sure like to get them to be friends again.

@tate I have read that and it seems like it’s usually hate. There is no real attempt by either to exert dominance via humping or chasing. They are really sweet to each other and will groom endlessly in the bathtub with no problem; I can even leave the room and will come back to more grooming or one bunny flopped. But when I’ve moved them to another room, they will start out all sweet and flop and will each explore the area but end up putting their tails up and fighting every time. And they have all been neutral areas where neither bun has been before.

I know that I need to put more time and effort into this on my part but I’m at a loss as to why they are all lovey for long periods of time and then all of a sudden turn into little monsters. Anyone know of a bonding expert in the MD/VA/DC area?

[Tate]

Hate to send you away, but have you tried BunSpace? It’s another forum. You might get different ideas/input on there. Bonding is so strange, so I think getting as many opinions and perspectives as you can will be helpful.
I don’t think it’s a hate issue. If they can be friendly in one area, they don’t hate each other. I’m not sure if rabbits really understand “high value” areas, but maybe it’s as simple as neither of them really cares to claim the bath tub. But when you put them in another area that is yet unclaimed, it might be more appealing and they may be more willing to fight for it. It would be like this: put on kibble of dog food in front of them… guarantee neither of them will care it’s there. Put ONE of their favorite treats in front of the two of them… they will probably fight for it. Not sure if that makes sense and it’s probably not helpful, but that could be answer as to why they are good in the tub but monsters out of it.

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