Broken Bond

[pete]

Hello just thought i would update everybody if they followed my bonding thread.

I Got in touch with Sirius and Luna who helped me a lot during my bonding process so if anybody has had similar situations their input would be much appreciated.

so sorry to contact you via message but the forum is down and i need your advice please. Clyde was poorly over the weekend so a visit to the vet was needed yesterday, i had to separate them for 24 hours with Clyde in the living room with me and Bonnie in their home (bedroom), i put back Clyde with Bonnie this morning and everything seemed fine, grooming etc, Bonnie then came into the living room where Clyde had spent the night (they do both have free roam of the living room when i am home), back into the bedroom and they had a pretty bad fight, i intervened and tried to calm them down and another fight started, plenty fur and aggression. They are now separated Bonnie in bedroom and clyde in living room, i do have a grid door which attaches to the bedroom so they cant come out at night, i have let them see each other through the grid door and they have tried to bite each other. I dont know what i should do, do i leave Bonnie in the bedroom (i dont want him to get territorial ), or do i put them both on the landing separated so they are both sharing a semi neutral space together. Thank You

I’m sorry to hear Clyde was ill! Hope he’s doing better now. Unfortunately this is pretty common with taking just one rabbit being taken to the vet, as they smell different when they come back. Sometimes just one rabbit being ill can cause fights too. If I was you I would keep them where they can see each other but can’t touch for a couple of days on the landing, then try them in neutral territory again. Hopefully it won’t be a long rebounding process, as they should remember each other. Sorry this has happened, you worked so hard on that bond!

[LBJ10]

Hi Pete,

I’m sorry, I’m not familiar with your original bonding thread. Unfortunately, these things have happen. Especially when the bond is relatively new. Having a different smell is most likely what set Bonnie off. If it were me, I would do separated but within sight of each other and in neutral territory. You might also try swapping blankets, litter boxes, etc. so everything starts smelling “the same” again.

[BinkyBunny]

Hi Pete — So sorry to hear about what happened. The fact they got along at first makes me think the scent wasn’t the cause (but it is common after a vet visit, but usually it’s rather instant, but maybe this time, it just took time for the other to feel like a “stranger” was in the midst. Also, S&L is right that illnesses can make rabbits fight. Especially if one has a UTI. The stronger scent from a UTI can cause bunny issues at times.

What did they think was Clyde’s problem?

I don’t have too much to add at the moment because I agree the advice given

I think this would be a good start.

Keep us updated.

[pete]

Hello thank you both for your replies, Clyde was not eating or drinking for most of last Saturday, when i took him to the vet on the sunday, temp was fine , heart was good and he did not have gas problems or anything like that, they said his lungs were not very good, they gave me two perscriptions and something to put in his water, i had to force feed him for a few hours, he started eating that night and is back to his usual self fingers crossed.

I have kept them seperate since then next to each other in semi neutral (my living room), gave them exercise in their home (bedroom), last night i gave them a good hour in neutral and everything went really well, grooming each other, lying next to each other.
I will give them longer tonight and maybe try semi for a while, my concern is when i introduce them back to the bedroom together do i need to keep the smells or give a really good clean of their home like when i first put them in their permanent home 3 months ago.

BTW i will need to take Clyde back to vets for check up, i will be taking bonnie as well.

Thanks

[Sirius&Luna]

I’m glad to hear they’re doing well in neutral territory! That’s really positive. I think it would be best if you could give the bedroom a really good clean again. I know it’s a pain, but I think it’s the easiest way to make the process as easy as possible for the buns!

Even if they’re not fully rebonded by the time of Clyde’s next vet visit, it would be good to take them both so that a. they gain the same new smells and b. it might work as a stress bonding trip.

[BinkyBunny]

I’m sorry about Clyde’s Lungs — A respiratory infection? Sounds like the meds they gave are working. So that’s great.

I am also relieved that the rebonding session went well. Keeping fingers crossed all goes well tonight.

Good idea to make sure they go together to the vets. I agree, it could end up being a stress bonding trip. May help solidify the bond.

Since Clyde will be touched the most, you may ask the vet and vet techs to also pet Bonnie. And then afterward, while waiting to check out, I would pet them both to get your scent and their scent all over each other. It won’t erase the vet’s scent, but reinforcing some “familiar” scent may also help.

Again — keep us updated.  Interested to know how things go. 

[pete]

Last nights session was not as good as the previous night, bit of lunging and not so much grooming, i did not feel so comfortable with them so i cut it quite short.

I will keep everyone updated thanks for replies which is much appreciated.

Sirius cleaning the room again will be a massive pain lol

[pete]

Positive 3 hours today, plenty of mutual grooming and eating together, Clyde was trying a fair bit of humping but Bonnie didn’t seem concerned and it did not turn to aggression, so fingers crossed.

[BinkyBunny]

Continued good news. That’s great. Not unusual to have a little set-back here and there. Good that you cut it short when you saw things taking more of a negative turn. Sounds like you are doing well. Was there anything different last night? Was it around “dinner” time. Were they getting territorial around anything? Like litter boxes. Just wondering if the timing and hunger or need to use the box had anything to do with it — sometimes those things can trigger reactions — sometimes it can creating better bonding — each pair is different and so finding what is the trigger to the lunging can sometimes be helpful (and many times it just remains a mystery that only the bunnies know — LOL)

[pete]

Another good session yesterday afternoon, a good four hours or so.

They are side by side in my living room for the past week, i let them out seperate for exercise and they lie next to each other when out and have touched noses without nipping, i am hoping to use the living room as semi neutral after a few more neutral sessions, they have been completely kept from bedroom (their home) till it is cleaned again.

[BinkyBunny]

This is continued great progress! Yay!

[pete]

Nearly 2 weeks in neutral for many hours with no problems, today i tried semi, i opted for my landing with a bit of my living room doorway(i thought the whole living room might be a bit to large), they had 6 hours together with plenty of grooming and interaction, at some stage i fell asleep and they woke me up fighting.

There was a bit of humping from Clyde during those 6 hours but it never lead to any fights nor has it in the past, so i am not sure what could had started the fight.

Another step back

[DanaNM]

it’s not uncommon to back track a bit when you move to less neutral space, so don’t be too hard on yourself!
next session you can start them in neutral for a while, them move them to semi neutral all together if they are doing well in neutral still.

I also usually wait until they have spent an overnight or at least many hours in neutral before progressing to semi. How long were your sessions in neutral?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[pete]

Yes your probably right. i have been giving them 4-6 hours a day, will need to extend  much longer i think.

They had a good 5 hours yesterday in neutral, all timid and innocent as if no disagreements has ever happened between them, snuggle up and hide under a table and stump and act up when i put them back in x-pen.

It does not make sense how 6 hours in semi can be bliss then the 7th hour they fight, i could easily have ended at 6 and it would have been a successful session, because they fight in the last few hours it ends up a bad session, we could all have a great 23 hours and end a session, but who knows in the 24th hour  they might fight, does that mean the  whole 23 hours means nothing? hard to get my head around the whole process

Thanks for reply

[DanaNM]

I would just take it one step at a time with your two. My guess is that once they get to 23 hours in neutral with no fights, they won’t fight in the 24th.

With my pairs, it’s never been a linear increase in time… It was more that there were a few distinct phases. Right now I think you are in the tolerance phase. Where they get a long for a while, but when the time starts getting longer, they have differences to sort out. Usually when you push past that phase, they will make some big jumps in progress.

Are you ending the sessions when they act up? If so, that teaches them that if they start squabbling they can end the date. Even if they start acting up, wait until they are calm again for a while before ending.

I think your goal for now would be to get to 8 hours of positive in neutral, repeated over a couple of days. Then you can try for an overnight or some longer marathon sessions in neutral and see how those go.

If they do have a fight after 23 hours, that doesn’t mean that everything is undone, but it does mean that they aren’t bonded yet. Sometimes those final disagreements are needed to really solidify the hierarchy.

I will also add that if you feel like you are in a bit of a rut, changing locations worked wonders for my most recent bonding. If you can take them to a friend’s house for the weekend and marathon in their kitchen or garage it might be very helpful.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[pete]

Hi, they had 9 hours in neutral yesterday which went great, have not had any problems in neutral at all over the past few weeks, they only act up when they know i am ending the session and have to escort them in litter tray back to the x-pen (they don’t act up against each other) 

The times i have tried in semi has been the living room area where i let them out separately for exercise and only gave them about 10 minutes as Bonnie took a lunge at Clyde, then the other was the landing which i used for a couple of hours and the  6 hours which went really well until i woke up with the fight.

I feel quite confident in neutral its just semi at the moment.

[DanaNM]

In neutral, do you see lots of positive behaviors? or just no fighting?

You’ll want to see them cuddling, grooming, sharing food, sharing litter box, etc. in neutral before moving to semi.

If the 9 hours went well I would try for an overnight or 24 hours in neutral to see if you can progress things.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[pete]

Very positive all the time, plenty grooming, cuddling, sleeping, flopping and sharing trays etc

[Sirius&Luna]

Great news! it sounds like they want to be friends again, they’re just not quite there yet. Is it always Bonnie instigating fights?

[DanaNM]

Agree with S&L!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[pete]

The fight in semi which woke me up was mainly bonnies fur so i am assuming it was a humping attempt by Clyde which got a bit out of hand or a fight for whatever reason and Clyde got the upper hand.

I gave them only about 3 hours last night in neutral and was excellent again, will progress to an overnight towards the weekend and hopefully try semi again.

[BinkyBunny]

Posted By pete on 6/10/2018 3:08 AM

It does not make sense how 6 hours in semi can be bliss then the 7th hour they fight, 

Just a thought — you said you had fallen asleep with them and woke up to them fighting…do you snore? Just thinking if snoring sounded like growling and caused tensions. I know that seems weird, but just thinking….    I mean all was well until you fell asleep.  

Either way though — sounds like they are back on track. 

[pete]

Yes i do actually, maybe your right lol, does seem to be fine in nuetral ATM so fingers crossed.

[Sirius&Luna]

Haha you never know what might freak bunnies out

[pete]

So neutral is the small landing i have for them, then up a few stairs is the main landing with access to living room and bedroom (i live in a flat), should i use main landing for semi neutral or the living room where they have the x-pens each and live atm and the place they have exercise everyday.

Thanks

[Sirius&Luna]

I would say main landing… maybe you could even have the door open and be able to lie in bed from there

[pete]

An overnight in neutral which went really well, then straight into semi which so far has been 10 hours with no issues, hopefully will keep going for overnight and then try bedroom again and see what happens

[DanaNM]

Go bunnies go!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[pete]

Been together since Sunday in permanent home being really good and pretty much inseparable together, have noticed today that Bonnie has been a bit standoffish and wanting if you like alone time and not wanting as much grooming with a little bit of nipping when Clyde wants grooming, when Clyde tried a bit of humping Bonnie nipped him on his backside, i am hoping this is normal behaviour and something they have to sort out themselves.

[DanaNM]

Sometimes if you give them too much space too soon there can be some little flair-ups. I would just keep monitoring them, especially during the times when they are most active. If you recently expanded their space, you might try cutting it back a bit.

Has Bonnie been OK with Clyde mounting before? Or was this the first time he tried?

You also might try a wee bit of stressing just to help with the cementing process (such as vacuuming around their pen).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[pete]

When they were previously bonded for a few months clyde was humping a fair bit (especially the first few weeks), but it never lead to aggression, bonnie would just run away, just that i noticed bonnie nip clyde this time which i have never seen before, but tbh about 5 mins later clyde was flopping and grooming took place, so i am hoping it will never progress to aggression.

BTW they both seem to like the hoover, never bothers them or stresses them out

[pete]

Horrible horrible day, bad fight with Bonnie having ripped ear and Clyde torn eye, can’t understand what has happened, 6 days together 1 in neutral 1 in semi and 4 in permanent home and this happens, so much for 48 hours as the cut off period for bonding

I Fed them as usual last night went into living room when i heard noises and they had been fighting, Bonnie’s ear bleeding and ripped and Clyde’s eye red and swollen, went to the vet this morning and will have to go back on Monday for Bonnie to have stitches.

I really don’t know if i can do this anymore, 3 months of being so good together and 1 visit to the vets (when Clyde was ill)and a separation for 24 hours caused all this to happen and my attempt at re bonding over the past few weeks has now ended in a nasty fight.

I realise so many people have the same problems but i really don’t know what to do, i know i will have to go through many months of pre-bonding again but how can i ever be fully confident that something like this will not happen again, do i give up and have them as separate bunnies ( which i don’t really want to do) and accept the fact that they might never bond or keep going on trying to bond them. I have worked so hard since last year getting to this stage and  its all been for nothing, not to mention a vet bill of a £ 100 for today’s visit and a morning off work

HELP

[DanaNM]

Oh nooooo I am so sorry this happened, so heartbreaking and stressful

Bertha used to be bonded with a bunny named JP, and out of no where after 5 months of peace they got in a terrible fight and Bertha needed stitches on her lip. We opted not to try to rebond them, as we felt we would never be able to trust them.

Whether you want to re-try is your call, but go with your gut. With this happening twice, I think I would personally opt to keep them separate indefinitely. They may just not be right for each other, or haven’t forgotten old fights. But, if you did want to try again, wait a LONG time. Like 4-6 months of separation. Then pre-bonding, etc.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[pete]

Thanks for reply, yes i should wait a very long time, in the meantime i am not sure how i should keep them separated, before i had them bonded they lived together in separate x-pens in the bedroom (where they lived when bonded), do i stick with the same set-up, it is not really practical to have them in completely different rooms.

[DanaNM]

It depends….
If you don’t plan to try to re-bond, keeping them side by side would probably be good, as they might enjoy being neighbors. Several members here have had two buns that wouldn’t bond live happily side by side for years.

If you plan to rebond some day, then you want them in separate rooms so they can forget each other as much as possible.

I was looking into housing options for my current pair when I wasn’t sure if I could bond them, and I was planning on making a double-decker cube condo, with one bun upstairs and one bun downstairs, and then a ramp for the upstairs bun to get to their play area. You can add small mesh size hardware cloth (like 1/2″ or 1/4″ grid size) to the cubes or x-pen panels so that they can’t nip each other through the bars. That way you don’t have to have a buffer between them.

Sorry again.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[pete]

Yes i need to have a good think as i dont know what to do ATM, thanks for advice much appreciated

[Sirius&Luna]

Oh no Pete, that’s awful. So scary when they get in a fight when they ‘should’ be in the safe zone.

I think I would opt to have them live side by side, and hopefully you might see them mellow out towards each other over time (like over a year, not a few weeks!). What a stressful situation for you!

[pete]

Yes i just cant help thinking if i had been at work or not heard them fight.

I returned to the vet today and good news the ear is not infected and surgery can be done but i decided against it,cut a bit of his ear off and stitch it up, even the vet said its not necessary, its already been stressful enough for Bonnie so i don’t want to have to go through anymore dramas, plus god knows how much it would cost,sorry but Bonnie will have to live with battle scars.

Is your suggestion living side by side for a year with the intention of again trying to bond them?

Thanks 

[Sirius&Luna]

I think if they live side by side, eventually they might start showing interest in each other, and it might become obvious to you that you could attempt bonding again. I also think it’s probably nice for them to have the companionship of being near each other, since they previously got on well.

I don’t think you should have them side by side and feel that you HAVE to attempt bonding again in the future, but I think it could potentially make it easier if you did decide to, and they would probably ‘show’ you themselves if they were ready for it.

[Author]

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