Bonding/Fighting

[Gregmo]

I see some of the posts here are questioning whether their bunnies are fighting or bonding.  Mine are out and out fighting.  We introduced a third bunny to the fray (they are all fixed) and it has not gone well in the first week.  Heavy heavy fighting where they try and tear each other apart and bite each other deeply.   That was with the quick bond so now we are trying to go slower.  Keeping them in the same room but separated by a gate so they can smell and see each other.  And then putting them in a unfamiliar room for a few minutes once a day.  But the once a day leads to incredible violence and bunny hair all over the place.  Any suggestions?

[sarahthegemini]

If they’ve actually fought you need to completely seperate them out of sight and so they can’t smell one another. Essentially, they need to forget each other so they don’t hold any grudges. Keep them apart for a month or so and then start pre bonding.

[Gregmo]

Hmmm. That’s interesting. Haven’t heard that approach yet.

[sarahthegemini]

Bunnies can hold grudges and you want a fresh start so allowing them to forget one another will work in your favour when you try bonding again But you must do pre bonding techniques before actual meetings. So after a month of complete seperation, start swapping litter trays, toys, bowls etc for a while.

[Gregmo]

I’ll give it a shot!   Really appreciate this.  For the pre-bonding, anything specific?  Everything we have read online is that you put the bunnies together in a small unfamiliar room and keep a broom or water bottle handy in case things get out of hand.

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By Gregmo on 8/16/2017 2:00 PM

I’ll give it a shot!   Really appreciate this.  For the pre-bonding, anything specific?  Everything we have read online is that you put the bunnies together in a small unfamiliar room and keep a broom or water bottle handy in case things get out of hand.

You can either swap the bunny’s enclosures or you can swap their toys, food and water bowls, litter trays etc every other day for a few weeks so they get used to each other’s scent before you put them together for their first meeting (which as you said should be neutral/unfamiliar territory)

[Deleted User]

You’re going too fast for them.

Separate them. The reason she said a month is because they are fighting badly. They need to “reset” essentially and get over the fights they have had or they will continue to fight.

What other approach would you use other than separating rabbits who are “trying to tear each other apart and bite each other deeply” ????

[Bianca]

Separate for at least 1 month. Then at least 1 month of pre bonding. They have fought so you need to take this slow.

Then you could try do one on one instead of all three at once. Let new bun get used to one bun at a time. I am bonding a trio at the moment and that is what I did. I have been lucky that my rabbits haven’t been overly aggressive so it has been a surprisingly quick bond (not quite bonded yet though). Feel free to check out my journal if you are curious about how I went about it. It is called the Lily and Greebo bonding journal, but funnily enough Greebo hasn’t come into it yet because his hormones have just started settling, so I ended up working on Lily and my original pair Maggie and Terry.

[DanaNM]

Completely agree with the recommendation for a full break and prebonding. 

Once you start bonding again, you should try stressing them and a new location, but you will likely need a helper. I have had success with car-rides for bunnies that only wanted to fight. I sat in the backseat, bunnies in a plastic bin, while my partner drove us around. The stress of the car ride makes them realize they don’t want to fight and will often snuggle together for comfort. 

The vacuum is also useful. The key is to find out what works for your bunnies. Is there anyone you can ask for help from? A local rescue volunteer?  

You will also need to start short, and always end on a good note. If this means they are together for 30 seconds with the vacuum running, start with that. then work up to a minute, and so on. You need to anticipate when a full fight is about to happen and DO NOT let that happen. Use stress techniques to get them to stop (water bottle, loud noises, etc) if at all possible. 

But yes, first let them calm down, then start off with stressful, short dates. 

I’m also assuming everyone is spayed and neutered… because that is essential. 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Gregmo]

They’ve been fully separated for three weeks. Later this week we will try the bonding process again with short dates

[Bianca]

I wouldn’t start actual dates yet! Do some prebonding now that they have been separated for a few weeks. Especially with buns that have already fought, taking it slow and pre bonding is way better than going straight to dates again.

[Mikey]

Agreeing with Bianca! Its not time for bonding, its time for prebonding! Youll want to put their cages about 10 inches apart next to one another, and once a day youll swap their cages (bun1 into cage2, bun2 into cage one). Youll do this prebonding for about a month, and then you can start bonding sessions safely

[Gregmo]

I followed the steps. We don’t have cages but we kept one bunny upstairs and the others downstairs for 5 weeks. In week 4, we began to switch toys/litter boxes etc to give them an idea of each other. Then we tried prebonding. We took both bunnies to the bathroom (one neither has seen) and put both in the tub for 30 seconds. The older bunny (the one we have had longer) sat there and did nothing. I think he was scared. The younger (newer) bunny paid no attention to him but at least traveled around the tub. After 90 seconds we ended the experiment. A few days later, we tried again. Same result. But we went a little longer this time. For the third time, we put them both in the tub and everything was fine UNTIL I stepped out of the room for just a few seconds to grab a broom (in case they started to fight). Immediately I could hear a ruckus and ran back and they were in full fight mode. It was only a few seconds so no harm to either bunny. I separated them immediately and they went to their separate floors. Thanks to all the posts and everything I have read I know I need to be patient. So we will try again on Saturday and see how it goes. But if this bonding was a game of snakes and ladders, I hit a snake today.

[Deleted User]

That is not prebonding. Prebonding is everything you do before face to face meetings. Prebonding is switching trays, toys, blankets and enclosures. Dates are actual bonding.

I still think you are trying too quickly. Patience can literally make or break an attempted bonding. If they are immediately going to full fight mode in the first few minutes, I think you need to step back and do more prebonding. You said they were fighting badly, trying to tear each other up. It’s going to take longer than 5 weeks to mend the trauma that they felt during those attacks. Some members recommended 3 months of complete separation. I would have started with AT LEAST two months before trying to do dates again.

If you don’t take things slowly and at the bunnies pace, you may risk ruining bonds forever and having rabbits that permanently distrust each other because they fight with each other constantly, therefore they will continue to associate rabbit with fighting.

Please don’t be offended, I’m not trying to be rude or snarky. But it’s very important to take things slow, be patient, and only move to the next step when the buns are clearly ready.

[sarahthegemini]

Posted By Gregmo on 9/20/2017 4:46 PM

I followed the steps. We don’t have cages but we kept one bunny upstairs and the others downstairs for 5 weeks. In week 4, we began to switch toys/litter boxes etc to give them an idea of each other. Then we tried prebonding. We took both bunnies to the bathroom (one neither has seen) and put both in the tub for 30 seconds. The older bunny (the one we have had longer) sat there and did nothing. I think he was scared. The younger (newer) bunny paid no attention to him but at least traveled around the tub. After 90 seconds we ended the experiment. A few days later, we tried again. Same result. But we went a little longer this time. For the third time, we put them both in the tub and everything was fine UNTIL I stepped out of the room for just a few seconds to grab a broom (in case they started to fight). Immediately I could hear a ruckus and ran back and they were in full fight mode. It was only a few seconds so no harm to either bunny. I separated them immediately and they went to their separate floors. Thanks to all the posts and everything I have read I know I need to be patient. So we will try again on Saturday and see how it goes. But if this bonding was a game of snakes and ladders, I hit a snake today.

That isn’t pre bonding. Pre bonding is the swapping of litter trays and whatnot, which apparently you only did for a week? As described previously, you need to pre bond for a month. That means actual pre bonding, not your version of pre bonding which is just putting them together?!

When you do actually put them together, do not leave the room, do not turn your back for a second. Every single second needs to be supervised. So, be prepared beforehand. 

Because they’ve fought (again), they need complete seperation. Again. For a while. They’ve fought more than once now so it’s going to take a while for them to forget.

So, in sumnary: Complete seperation for AT LEAST one month. Then start pre bonding for AT LEAST one month. That is the standard but as yours have fought, you’ll probably need to allow extra time for each step.

[Lucy]

Brothers-can’t live with em, can’t live without em.

Bought our two Holland Lop brothers at age 10 weeks, they are now 5 months old. Over the last month, the otherwise calmer and more outgoing of the two has been mounting the other. Over last week or so has become almost continuous, with the other responding by moving away each time. Never saw them actually fighting at all (occasionally tables turned and he was the one doing the mounting, but not usually). The rest of the time, they seem so bonded—sit together, groom each other.

Then day before yesterday, things hit the fan. My kids heard a screetch and we found bits of fur about. Okay not just fur–turns out the put-upon brother has taken off his brother’s testicle. Took him to vet and received skin glue, antibiotics. Separated now, but in view of each other. Currently have one large crate and one ex pen, so one is in each location and they are still in view of each other. When they come into contact through the bars, they both seemed to want to be with the other.

This may seem awful, but I know someone whose bun died from anesthesia during a spay. The injured bun, my daughter is very attached to and I just can’t risk it. The other I would do, but the vet we got the emergency care from would charge upwards of $700. Guess my questions are, is losing just one nut going to temper bun #1’s libido at all, do you think I could reintroduce them to each other with just one and a half neuters between them, or even cautiously reintroduce them to each other just after this poor guy heals ? They just seem so lonely without each other . TIA.

[DanaNM]

Hi Lucy, it’s is recommended to start a new thread, so as not to confuse people. But, I’ll try to address your issues here.

Your boys were not truly bonded, because they were not neutered and were babies. As soon as their hormones kicked in, their relationship broke. I’m sorry you were mis-informed and thought that two un-neutered males could live together… they unfortunately cannot.

First, you will need BOTH boys to be neutered if you want to try to bond them. Neuter surgeries are far less invasive than spays, and spays are routine for females, so I wouldn’t let that one story deter you as long as you have a rabbit savvy vet. It is always scary for an animal to go under anesthesia, but if you find a rabbit savvy vet, the procedure is safe.

If you do not neuter, they will need to be kept separated forever. That means no contact between them at all, even through bars, as you don’t want them to be able to nip at each other through the fence.

Once you get them neutered, you’ll need to keep them separated several weeks (I believe the recommendation is 6 weeks for males) for their hormones to die down. That said, since they fought so violently, you should actually separate them for at least 3 months, out of sight of each other, to let them forget the fight.

Since they fought so badly, they need lots of time to forget their grudge. Then you will need to properly bond them, which requires 2 weeks – 1 month of prebonding (cage swapping), then supervised dates in neutral territory.

Especially since they have fought, there is no guarantee they will bond.

So yes, you will need both boys to be neutered, and then at least 3 months separated to allow them to forget the fight, followed by a full bonding process, starting from square 1.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Deleted User]

Oh my goodness!!! What a horrible experience for you and the buns alike!

Unfortunately this was a very bad fight for them. I agree with everything Dana suggested.

I’m not sure if you are in the U.S, but some local rabbit rescues may be able to help with low cost neuters. My local rabbit rescue offered a voucher for a no cost spay/neuter at a local participating vet in exchange for a $65 donation to the rescue. So not technically “free”, but pretty darn cheap!! However, this may not be an option to you, but you might be able to find a rabbit savvy vet in the local(ish?) area around you, and I’m sure that would be cheaper than the emergency vet (who I imagine isn’t all that skilled in rabbits)?

Anyway, agree with everything Dana said! This is was bad and they need a complete break for a while before they get reintroduced.

**not sure about this so experienced members feel free to chime in** but having them housed near each other may prolong how long they hold the “grudge” since they will continute to see/smell each other, therefore not easily “forgetting” how badly they fought the other? Just an idea that I had but I’m not sure if that’s entirely valid.

[Mikey]

but having them housed near each other may prolong how long they hold the “grudge” since they will continute to see/smell each other, therefore not easily “forgetting” how badly they fought the other? Just an idea that I had but I’m not sure if that’s entirely valid.

Yes! They need to be housed in completely separated rooms for several months. Because of how bad it was, I would recommend keeping them completely apart, out of sight and out of smelling range, for a complete six months. Keep them completely apart like this, unless you neuter them. If you do not neuter them, you cannot and should not ever bond them. The same fight will continue, or get worse if you are not there to stop it next time. Rabbits will fight to the death, so in a (horrible) way, your two bunnies were lucky as it is. It is not worth risking it further if you do not neuter BOTH of them.

On neutering, a rabbit certified vet will know how to neuter without much risk. Neuters are very, very easy on a bun. Most males bounce back within 24 hours. The actual surgery for a neuter is no more than 15 minutes, unlike a spay which is much longer and much harder on a female bun. If you plan to bond, BOTH must be neutered. Search around your area for a rabbit certified vet, and when you find one, go in an meet them first. If you trust them and their prices are good, schedule the neuters. If you meet the vet and you dont trust them or the prices are too high, look for a new one. If you have any rabbit shelters nearby, you can call them up and ask which vet they use for their rabbits. Shelters sometimes give offers away for discounted (but safe) neuters and spays.

If you do bond them, BOTH must be neutered and both must be completely separated for atleast six months. If you do bond them, I suggest reading as many posts in BinkyBunnys bonding forum as possible, so you can get an idea on how to go about prebonding, then actual bonding.

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