Bonding young Mini Rex & Holland Lop

[charabearbuns]

Hello fur-iends ! Sharing my (first) bonding experience as I bond my two buns. Hopefully someone can benefit from this but also hopefully I can get some insight and tips!

Meet the buns-

Chara – Chara is a 9 month old spunky little mini rex. I got her in April and we became very close. She lives in a 2 foot by 6 foot cage (dog crate) in my bedroom. She got used to being the top bun. I never intended to have 2 bunnies, but as I read about how bunnies shouldn’t be alone ( I work 8 hours a day) and some of her behaviors led me to think another bunny would be good for her.

Bear – Bear is a 6 month old holland lop. We did not bunny date; they did not pick each other (I’m horrible, I know). They are an owner chosen pair. He’s a sweet little boy, but he does know what he wants. He’s pretty go with the flow unless he really has a different idea in mind, in which case he’ll let you know.

When Bear came home the second week of July, they met in (what I now realize is) a semi-neutral area: the 18 foot hallway outside my bedroom. Bear was in a pen, Chara hopped out of my room (for the first time) and came to check him out. She did a lot of thumping and a lot of marking. Bear seemed indifferent. Chara eventually calmed down and she’d flow down next to the pen where he was inside like a little loaf.

Chara had been spayed for 6 weeks before Bear came home.

Bear was fixed as soon as he was old enough to be.

I’ve anticipated Chara being the dominant one, but who knows.

Bear now lives in my room too, in a cage next to Chara’s.

Early months:

For several months I was hot and cold with the pre-bonding; sometimes being really good about it for a week or two, then not making it enough of a priority for 2 weeks or so.

For those first several months we did a lot of interacting through a pen; Chara would have the run of my room, Bear would have the run of a pen attached to his cage in my room. She’d come check him out; they’d both request grooms through the pen, they’d sit with their heads pressed against each other while I pet them both. Sometimes Chara would get fed up that Bear wasn’t grooming her and she’d nip him through the pen. Often he’d dodge it and hang around, sometimes he’d hop away. 4/5 times they’d be out like this, they’d flop next to each other on opposite sides of the pen.

Marking has been a big issue for Chara. Lots of pooping & peeing near his cage (she’s completely litter box trained otherwise) and quite a bit of tornado peeing (I think the real term is called “spraying”? But I prefer tornado pee )

Two tough spats:

We had 2 tough spats early on.

1. Early September –  Silly me was excited and disregarded everything I read (but they seemed so nice to each other through the pen!) and I let them interact (in my room, where they both live, like a numb-nut)– Bear mounted her, she let him for a bit, I pushed him off, bunny tornado. I put off the idea of starting to bond them for a while after that.

2. Late October – The two buns were out in my room, Bear was in the pen. Chara somehow SNEAKED into the pen and chased him right into the cage- bunny tornado. Honestly, considering the situation, I’m amazed it wasn’t worse. No injuries,  just maybe a bit of pulled fur. After it happened, I made them sit for pets/forced snuggles on opposite sides of the pen for 30 minutes before we went to bed.

NOW:

Here we are giving bonding a real shot.

Situation: we’be been giving it a real shot the last week or so. 

Sessions 1 – 5: 30 min per advice from House Rabbit Network, we did 30 ish min sessions in a 2×2 pen on the first floor (my room, where they live, is on the third floor)

Session 6: 1+ hour – was at my moms house

Session 7: 1+ hour last night, on the first floor of my apartment but in a different room than our first 5 sessions. We did it in a bigger space; 5 x 5 feet. I did a bigger space (despite what House Rabbit Network suggested– no critique of them, though!) partially because of a feeling I was getting, and partially because I figured there was only one way to see if we’d be better off with a bigger space. 

Issue: the biggest issues we have (my interpretation)–

1. Lack of trust (obviously) – Chara seems very aware of every move Bear makes while they’re in that pen together. She looks very defensive every time he moves; she’ll brace to nip by leaning forward, ears back. 

2. Chara aggressive grooming Chara will “groom” Bears bum, but it looks a little too much like nibbling/snacking. After 10 seconds or so, I can see his fur start to twitch in reaction =( as though this hurts him. Eventually he’ll get fed up, nip her bum (which is right by his head), aaaand bunny tornado.

Sometimes I’ll put my hand between Chara’s head and Bears bum, to keep her from nibbling him, sometimes I’ll pet Bear to help him tough it out. House Rabbit Network told me this aggressive grooming is likely a display of dominance and that it should be curbed.

3. Grooming standoff they continue to have grooming standoffs. Chara’s groomed Bear a few times, but he hasn’t done it back yet. Often I’ll pet them during these grooming standoffs to satisfy everyone. Sometimes Chara will get fed up and nip him, and sometimes that escalates, and sometimes it goes back to a grooming standoff

4. De-escalation an issue we have is once they have a tousle, it seems like we can’t deescalate. If there’s a tousle, I’ll spritz the offender to break it up; they’ll both clean themselves, but then they seem to have trouble resuming after that. They seem on the verge of a spat (and sometimes do engage) for the rest of the session. I’m reluctant to end the session after a tousle because I don’t want to end on a bad note. 

Let me know if you have any suggestions, otherwise just enjoy (hah!) and wish us well as we 

[DanaNM]

Hi there, welcome!

Your format of your post is so easy to follow, thank you for the details! Don’t worry about not speed dating, sometimes you just gotta make decisions for them. And also don’t worry about the early mistakes, I made very similar mistakes my first time bonding… it worked out in the end!

You are pretty early on in actual sessions, so the lack of trust is normal.

So, since de-escalation is an issue, you have to make sure things do not escalate at all. In this situation, I recommend working first on building their trust and comfort around each other. Whenever they approach each other, start petting them both and swap scents. Do this even if they aren’t in a grooming standoff. You have been doing this a bit already, from the sound of it, so do this more. You want them to think that when the other bun approaches they aren’t going to get bum nips, they are going to get pets and cuddles.

Basically do this until they relax. If they move away from each other, that’s fine. Once they relax a bit, you can pause petting for a few seconds and see what happens. if they get tense, go back to petting. Eventually you will start weaning them off the petting, but the idea is to build trust, so then they can sort out dominance without feeling afraid (and fear leads to aggression).

I don’t think the Chara aggressive grooming is true grooming. Some buns will do something like this when they are thinking about mounting, or as a warning to a nip. Rather than putting your head in between, it would be better to turn her so they are side by side (face to face), and pet them both.

it’s very important to not let them get into scuffles, especially since they are hard to break up.

I would also recommend using the largest space possible. Some people have better luck with small spaces, but when the buns are tense and on edge, the small space can make things worse. I’ve always had the best luck with large spaces, so long as they are very neutral. I would go even larger than 5X5, I like using 2 x-pens linked up. Some people also like to add at least 2 hiding spots with at least 2 exits, especially in longer sessions.

You can imagine a case where one bun is trying to retreat from the other, but in a small space there isn’t anywhere to retreat to, so a tornado ensues. Larger spaces make it easier for them to chase a bit and have one bun actually back down.

My most recent pair sounds very much like yours. I wrote a blog post about it for my rescue, you might find it useful! http://www.bunssb.org/bunnies/bonding-two-stubborn-senior-buns/

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[charabearbuns]

Hi Dana! Thanks for the welcome I’m glad you found the post easy to read

Thank you for the assurances and for replying! Very helpful tips and I gave them a try! More petting them—happy to oblige

I actually read your blog post yesterday morning before I posted on the forum! Very helpful.

Regarding space, I’ll see what I can do as far as finding a bigger space. I definitely think a small space wasn’t for us, I’m glad I gave the bigger one a try despite being nervous about it. Maybe I’ll use my dining room tonight, though I’m also nervous about being less able to interfere if they’re under tables/chairs.

Sounds like it may be early for us to have hiding spots, though I’m definitely interested in that idea. 

[charabearbuns]

Bonding Session # 7 – 30 ish minutes – last night

Definitely still early, definitely still low trust (understandably)

I gave what DanaNM said a try about de-escalation – I tried to do things that do not escalate at all, i.e. a lot of comforting and petting.

Scene: Again, we were in a 5 ft by 5 ft area with lots of ‘things’ (hay, a tissue box, 2 folded down boxes I had intended to put in the recycling, a dustpan, oven mitt, pot, metal spool, spray bottle) 

Timeline:
First 15 minutes – great 

Minutes 1-5: they ignored each other and scoped things out

Minutes 5-15: started with ‘forced’ snuggles (I wasn’t smooshing them together but was petting them both while they were next to each other). Bear seemed a little nervous being so close to Chara, but after a bit it really seemed like he was snuggling into her! He even ‘purred’ after 8 minutes or so! She nipped him twice but he seemed okay. It was the most relaxed I’ve seen them next to each other.
Bear’s always the first to get up and hop away, which usually annoys Chara. She’ll lunge after him to nip him but won’t chase. 

Second 15 minutes – not so great –

Strategy results – As I mentioned, I tried DanaNM’s suggestion about keeping things from escalating, but they wouldn’t let me. I.e. as they got near each other, I’d try to pet them. But they wouldn’t let me! Not that they’d nip at me, but they’d keep moving and clearly wouldn’t be still long enough for me to de-escalate. It also didn’t seem to be comforting them. I tried using small piece of apple, too.

I’ll note that this was weird – especially for Chara. She loves pets & apple, and will usually stop whatever she’s doing mid-tracks for either of these things so I’m surprised this didn’t work yesterday. I can imagine it not working after they’ve had a tussle.

Who knows, maybe she had an off day. I think it’s a good strategy so I’ll give it a few more tries (thanks, DanaNM!)

Events – So anyways, they wouldn’t let me de-escalate, so they had a scuffle. I think what happened was Chara was in Bears way so he hopped over her, she didn’t like that, ipso facto – spray bottle. I pet & gave apples to chill everyone out. 

(I’ll note there’s plenty of space for Chara to not be in Bear’s way – he reminds me of a little brother where he always wants to take the route right by her just to annoy her)

After petting & apples I’m looking for my moment to end our session. Chara’s keeping an eye on Bear and looking very apprehensive. Her ears told me she was going to try to lunge and nip, so I banged the metal spoon against the pot. I usually use a spray bottle but since they were pretty wet from their first session and I wanted to give this tactic a try anyways, I went for it. I don’t think I’ll use it again.

Yes, it stopped them and they both looked quite nervous, but then Bear hopped away and thumped twice and he rarely thumps. He’s been so chill through things so far and it’s still been tricky (as comes with the territory) so I’m hesitant to do anything to piss off my calm bun 

After they were both scared, I pet and took Bear home, then came and took Chara home

Note – I will note that despite that I have an oven mitt and dustpan near me, I haven’t, during any of our 7 sessions, felt the need to use them—and I don’t think that’s out of ignorance because Bear did get me good early on so I know what they’re capable of, I just feel like, when they do scuffle, it doesn’t amount to oven-mitt-wearing, dustpan-needing scuffle.

I’m excited to hang with them tonight, on we go!

[DanaNM]

I usually don’t end up using oven mits either… I know it’s risky but I just feel like i need to have my actual hands on them. Some people like leather gardening gloves.

So, since the first 15 min were great, I would try for 15 min tonight and end it then. That way you don’t end up pushing them to the point of them scuffling, and being forced to end on a negative note.

Sounds like the pot is they way to go for stopping scuffles! You do want something that will stop them in their tracks like that, even though it sucks scaring your bun. I prefer it over squirting them with water… that never worked that well for me and I would just end up with soggy bunnies.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[charabearbuns]

Session 8 – 5 minutes =(

So I had to skip our bonding session on Wednesday to help my mom out with something but we picked it up last night. My intention was to keep it to 15 minutes and to utilize the pot banging instead of the spray bottle should I need to break up a scuffle

Last night did not go well.

I started to try to round them up to bring them downstairs but CHara was not having it. I usually put the carrier in her cage and give her some time to hop in herself, since she really doesn’t like being picked up. But she’s catching on so she’s been resistant to get in so after 30-40 min of waiting to see if she’d hop in on her own, I decided I’d just pick her up and put her in.

But, I decided to bring down Bear first, well, in the process of trying to do that, he got loose and started running around my room. I get the sense that Chara feels very territorial about my room, and lately (the last week or so) I haven’t been letting Bear have the run of my room, so this did not go over well. She was pacing back and forth in her cage, watching him hop around, looking quite upset. He hopped into the carrier, and my intent was to bring him down.

Given how upset Chara was, though, I wasn’t sure if I should still do a session since she was pretty riled up from him running around my room. I tried to pet her to calm her down, but she wasn’t having that, I think because she thought/knew I might be picking her up soon to bring her down, so she kept scared-whining while I tried to pet her.
My other option, I thought, was to let her run around my room and re-claim it as hers and then give the session a try. I decided against that for selfish reasons- I didn’t want to be cleaning bunny pee/poop from under my bed (which I anticipated happening as part of her reclaiming my room) and it was getting later.
I think that decision was a mistake.

I brought them both down, same set up, and they were not happy.

I couldn’t calm them with pets or apples, she just went for him. They had a scuffle. I tried banging the pot but it wasn’t working so well. I think I’ll go back to the spray bottle next time since not only does it stop them in the moment like the pot does, but it has a longer-lasting stopping effect ’cause they need to pause and clean themselves.

I didn’t feel like I could easily calm them down together (though that’s partially a reflection of them and partially a reflection of where my head was at last night) so I scooped him out and put them in the carrier.

I don’t like ending on a bad note, but like I said I also didn’t see us ending on a good note, so I had him in the carrier in their bonding pen, and I pet him inside the carrier and her outside the carrier for a bit, switching hands.

UGH what a bummer of a night.

Not feeling optimistic about tonight’s session. I feel like I should bring them in the car, but I don’t think any of my roommates will be home to drive me with them so I’m not sure whether I should try to drive them myself, try our regular session, or skip. TBD, wish us luck

[DanaNM]

Bummer

It’s common to have some ups and downs, especially when the buns are already in a kind of mood or all riled up when you start (and when you are! They def can cue in on that). Don’t feel forced to have a session every day if you or them just don’t feel up for it.

I def think a car ride could be helpful to you. I would wait until you have a helper, just in case they start scuffling in the carrier or bin you use. You can also try a mini version, where you just walk around the block with them in the carrier before taking them to the bonding area (or pop them on top of the washing machine while it’s running).

I’m also wondering, I know you had them side by side for a long time, but did you ever do full side swaps? It can help a lot. They get completely used to the other bun’s scent and start to learn that life continues as usual with the other bun all in their territory. I feel like since Chara is acting so crazy that might help. If you haven’t already been doing this, try swapping who is on what side for a week or two (pause bonding sessions) and see how they do. Continue with the side swaps as you continue sessions.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[charabearbuns]

Thanks, Dana! Your reply is very comforting, I was bummed (even though I knew we’d have downs, in addition to ups) but it is what it is, on we go.

Swapping – Regarding the swapping– I had been doing it, and then got careless about it. I was nervous to pick up cage swapping again once we started having regular bonding sessions because I was nervous that while they were getting used to the swapping, that it’d ramp up Chara’s territorial-ness during sessions so I was only doing litter box swapping, but even that I think I got a little to relaxed with after a week or so.

Break – After our rough session on Thursday, I decided to take some time off until we could go for a car ride so the only interaction they had with each other on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday was through their cages. 

Latest (Monday & Tuesday) On Monday and Tuesday we went for car rides. On Monday, we went for a 25 min car ride to my moms house(where I stayed over night for Christmas eve). I split the living room in half with the gate, and after she cooled down from the car ride she was pretty testy with him even through the gate. She’d follow where he was going back and forth, and if they both went up to the gate, she’d either go right for the nip or she’d ask him to groom her, he wouldn’t, and then she’d nip. They’ve only been to my moms house once before, about 2 weeks ago.

For their temporary home at my moms house (when they weren’t running around), I used the pen to make 2 make shift ‘cages’ for them where they were sharing 1 ‘wall’ of the cage. Again, she was pretty testy with him. When I wasn’t there to keep an eye on them, I put up a cardboard divider so they couldn’t nip each other through the gate.

He seems so sweet and go with the flow. My mom has a theory that he’s secretly tormenting her in ways that we can’t see, so while it looks like she’s being a bully, perhaps he’s just teasing her and provoking her. (My mom’s the youngest of 7 so she may be projecting hahah)

Next up – I guess I’ll take a break for a bit, maybe a week or two, to work on the cage swapping? The way I was doing it was I’d swap them every morning before I went to work, and then again when I got home from work– so they’d each be in their “own” cage overnight, but then they’d be in the “other’s” cage during the day — is that too frequent?

Tips? Any tips on my bedroom? He needs to get his exercise, obviously, but it seems to stress her out. Should I let him run around my room for his exercise even though it peeves her and hopefully she’ll get used to it? Or should I let him get his exercise in a different room? Should I confine him to a limited area in my room for his exercise, or should I let him run around my room but try to hide it from her (with a blanket over her cage, or something)?

Oh boy, starting over a bit

Hope whoever reads this had a happy holiday

[DanaNM]

Posted By charabearbuns on 12/26/2018 3:00 PM

Thanks, Dana! Your reply is very comforting, I was bummed (even though I knew we’d have downs, in addition to ups) but it is what it is, on we go.

Swapping – Regarding the swapping– I had been doing it, and then got careless about it. I was nervous to pick up cage swapping again once we started having regular bonding sessions because I was nervous that while they were getting used to the swapping, that it’d ramp up Chara’s territorial-ness during sessions so I was only doing litter box swapping, but even that I think I got a little to relaxed with after a week or so.

Break – After our rough session on Thursday, I decided to take some time off until we could go for a car ride so the only interaction they had with each other on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday was through their cages. 

Ok yes, I think it is really important to continue the swapping once you start bonding sessions, especially when they live in the same home. Professional bonders and rescues don’t do these sorts of things, but they are always working in the buns in completely neutral spaces (and they are neutral people!), so they have different techniques. I usually time the swap to be right after a session. So pick buns up for session, then return them to the opposite cages. That way it minimizes handling, and they get to sniff everything that that “OTHER” rabbit was doing in “THEIR” territory. The idea with swapping is it helps them learn that they other rabbit is not a threat to them. It’s like, “ok yes, there is another rabbit all up in my space, but life goes on, and I’m still fine”.

Latest (Monday & Tuesday) On Monday and Tuesday we went for car rides. On Monday, we went for a 25 min car ride to my moms house(where I stayed over night for Christmas eve). I split the living room in half with the gate, and after she cooled down from the car ride she was pretty testy with him even through the gate. She’d follow where he was going back and forth, and if they both went up to the gate, she’d either go right for the nip or she’d ask him to groom her, he wouldn’t, and then she’d nip. They’ve only been to my moms house once before, about 2 weeks ago.

For their temporary home at my moms house (when they weren’t running around), I used the pen to make 2 make shift ‘cages’ for them where they were sharing 1 ‘wall’ of the cage. Again, she was pretty testy with him. When I wasn’t there to keep an eye on them, I put up a cardboard divider so they couldn’t nip each other through the gate.

How were they in the car together? Did they ride together or in separate carriers?

He seems so sweet and go with the flow. My mom has a theory that he’s secretly tormenting her in ways that we can’t see, so while it looks like she’s being a bully, perhaps he’s just teasing her and provoking her. (My mom’s the youngest of 7 so she may be projecting hahah)

I mean, she IS asking for grooms, and he’s not doing it. So right now, she’s afraid of him. I’ve noticed similar things in bonding, where it seems like one rabbit is being a jerk and the other is being “nice”, but sometimes the “nice” one is more subtly exerting dominance, or at least failing to submit, so they aren’t as nice as we think. Bonding is about sorting dominance, but it also is about trust. The rabbit that submits has to be certain that the other rabbit is not going to hurt them if they let their guard down. Do make sure they cannot actually nip each other through the gate, as this will hurt their trust-building (and they can get a nasty nip to the nose). It’s also important to try not to push one bun or the other to submit, and to not project our own feelings on to them (it’s really hard though!). It may surprise you which bun ends up being submissive, but that’s for them to decide. 

Next up – I guess I’ll take a break for a bit, maybe a week or two, to work on the cage swapping? The way I was doing it was I’d swap them every morning before I went to work, and then again when I got home from work– so they’d each be in their “own” cage overnight, but then they’d be in the “other’s” cage during the day — is that too frequent?

That’s a lot, prob too much (and too much stress for you). Every day or even every other day is fine. Try to time it so the litter box is dirty for at least a few hours from the other rabbit. I used to swap in the evenings, and clean boxes in the morning. And yes, I think 2 weeks of just pre-bonding cage swaps would be good for them. You will want to see them calm down when sharing a fence. If after that time Chara is still running the fence and being aggressive through the border, then either you should do more pre-bonding, OR go for a completely different approach where they aren’t next to each other at all (this is less common, but works better for some buns). 

Tips? Any tips on my bedroom? He needs to get his exercise, obviously, but it seems to stress her out. Should I let him run around my room for his exercise even though it peeves her and hopefully she’ll get used to it? Or should I let him get his exercise in a different room? Should I confine him to a limited area in my room for his exercise, or should I let him run around my room but try to hide it from her (with a blanket over her cage, or something)?

Can you let them out at the same time, with the room divided by an x-pen? If you get two x-pens you can have a buffer along the fence line so they cannot nip. Or line it with fine mesh hardware cloth (or even cardboard) at the base to prevent nipping. The fact that it peeves her means you should probably do it! Unless he is intentionally harassing her, I think it will be good for her to get used to it.

Thanks for the holiday well-wishes, same to you! Hopefully the New Year will be the year of bonded buns for you! 
 

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Hey!
I don’t have too much to add to what DanaNM has said (She is amazing and helped me through the bonding of my two guys) But I will say:

1. Bigger space SUPER Helped for me – make sure its in a place that they can’t even SMELL their regular area. (Going on a different floor of the house, like you did before is great)

2. I never had much luck with spaying water like DanaNM either, and like you I never felt the need to use gloves or anything, although I DID find using the dustpan between them helped a lot for distracting/separating.

3. Continuing to swap is HUGE – I did not start doing any face to face meeting until the marking of the territory when I swapped them had mostly stopped – in both their cages and the outside run around play area – so for you that would be the rest of your bedroom by the sounds of it) Before the face to face bonding I would swap cages every two days and the litter boxes every other day between that… so every day something smelled like the other bunny.

And ironically swapping their areas was so much easier during bonding as I would just put them back in the opposite side.

** You are going to have a HORRIBLE time trying to move them back to their permanent home of your bedroom once you bond them outside of it as Chara will still be very possessive of the area as she is not used to smelling and seeing Bear in it.
You need to have them completely lose track of whats “Mine vs theirs”

4. I used food as a big shared time between them when they were out. They would ONLY Get their veggies or a new special hay while they were out together. Once I was sure they wouldn’t fight over food they would then also only get their beloved pellets when they were out together – what I would do was scatter the pellets around the floor so they would have to forge (which I still do now as Penny always trys to steal what Rupert is eating – seriously – she will shover her mouth right up inside his and take it right from him lol so this helps me makes sure he gets some and she doens’t get fat!)
But then they started realizing – “Hey, awesome things happen when I’m around this other guy”

My issue with my two was getting them past the humping – never a full tornado, but mine took months and were a pretty stubborn pair if you want to read my bonding journal lol.

Oh and yes, make sure they can’t nip through the cage bars

You’ll get there – some bunnies just take longer than others, but yours don’t sound like a lost cause at all… just a bit nervous of each other still.

[charabearbuns]

Thank you both DanaNM & Nutmeg for being such a huge help! I’m so grateful

Hi Nutmeg! I read through your bonding journal! So it’s pretty neat to hear from you, lol Your journal is actually what finally made me try the bigger space! Definitely works better for us.

I always thought of the dustpan similarly to wearing gloves, so I haven’t tried it, but maybe I’ll give that a go once we pick things back up!

Car ride –

Logistics – I put them into 1 box with a sturdy piece of cardboard dividing the box in two (diagonally). (Note: this is ONLY for bonding, otherwise I have a carrier). Once we get to the end of my driveway, I stop the car and pull out the divider so they’re in the box together-together. I haven’t tried putting them right into the box together without a divider, I’ve always used the divider.

Behavior – they’re great in the car together, actually. Chara gets pretty freaked in the car and since she tends to be the aggressor, I think the reason we have no issues is because she’s too freaked to pick on him.

They don’t seem to intentionally look to each other for comfort, rather it seems like they each hunker down out of fear and sometimes that’s right up next to each other. Sometimes Chara does a bit of pacing, too.

Swapping – alrightie! I guess we’re spending time swapping! Everything you both said makes total sense so I guess we’ll stick to that until everyone (@Chara, lol) gets a little more comfortable sharing. Sounds like you had a good schedule, Nutmeg.

I think swapping less frequently may help her get more comfortable, too.

Currently, as soon as she hops into “his” cage when I first do the swap, she tornado pees, drops a whole lot of poops, and then chins everything.

He just chins stuff when I swap them.

My room – I had been thinking about how difficult it’d be to transition them back to my room so that’s a great point!

“The fact that it peeves her means you should probably do it! Unless he is intentionally harassing her, I think it will be good for her to get used to it.” – Got it! Thank you, DanaNM, this makes so much sense. We need to get comfortable with these little hurdles before we attempt bigger ones.

Got it re. no nipping through bars, that’s actually new to me. I thought the nipping was part of them sorting things out, but I’ll put a stop to that! Just bought a second gate online (I’d been going back and forth, anyways).

Yes yes, hopefully 2019 brings me some bonded buns Thank you both for helping me get a better understanding of what might be going on and how to adjust! I’m excited for us; still just getting started.

Here’s a pic of us last night! Bear’s in “Chara’s” cage and she’s just sitting there in front of him. I sat in front of the cage so whenever she came over, I’d intermittently start petting them to keep her from nipping. In this pic, they had put their heads next to each other side by side I know her ears could be interpreted to look angry here, but she didn’t seem it. They’re just down like that from me petting her  

[DanaNM]

Ok, so that’s great that they were good together in the car!

So, once you feel you’ve done enough pre-bonding (I would gauge whether Chara seems more calm about it all), when you resume sessions I would just stick to some car rides for a few days in a row. Car ride together, then end the session. Then after a few days of this, try a car ride, and then go straight into the bonding area that works the best for you (sounds like the large upstairs area!). At first just spend a short bit in the bonding area, then end it. This will probable go something like them catching their breath after the car ride, then starting to explore a bit more.

It does suck stressing your bunnies, but it can be SO helpful. Rabbits are social by nature BECAUSE they live in a stressful world naturally (danger around every turn!), so stress can really help in situations where they are acting pretty aggressive.

Obviously keep track of poops and appetite, and don’t feel like you need to stress them daily if they seem like they need a day off.

Yeah, nipping during bonding session is OK, but through the fence is bad! Part because they aren’t on neutral space, and part because they aren’t interacting normally (kind of like dogs when they are on leash).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Nutmeg]

Aww I’m glad you found my bonding journal helpful.
It’s crazy too look back on lol

And yes, as DanaNM said – a bit of a nip during bonding is usually ok (as long as it doesn’t turn in to a bunny tornado) as it can be a good form of communication between them – but through the bars is bad as its more “defending my territory” behavior.

Also I found with my two when you have them in the bigger space allowing a bit of chasing can be ok as the other one has room to “run away”…. but don’t allow more than a few seconds/hops of chasing.

Picture it like this…. Chara chases Bear… Bear runs off… Chara chases him for a quick second and then STOPS on her own, as if to say “Ya, thats right buddy! I’m top bunny”

This helped my boy (Bear in your case) realize that if he hops off she wont KEEP chasing him.

But you have to make sure if the chase is more than a few hops/a second then you stop it as THAT can escalate into a fight quickly.

Otherwise everything else you said/are doing/planing to do sounds great.

[Nutmeg]

PS – I forgot to say – They are SO Cute! Love the little moo-cow spots haha

[charabearbuns]

Helloo again fur-rends! We’ve missed you but we’ve been very busy working diligently on our pre-bonding!

Recap: when I would let one or both of the bunnies out at the same time (in my room, with a pen separating them), Chara would nip at Bear through the bars. (Note: I’ve since learned that this is okay as a means of communication during a bonding session, but shouldn’t be standard during not-bonding times.) 

She (Chara) also seemed stressed if he (Bear) was out running around my room while she was in her cage. She’d pace back and forth and keep an eye on him the whole time.

So, I bought a second gate and split my room in half with the 2 gates. The gates run parallel to each other with about 4 inches in between them so that the bunnies (*cough* Chara *cough*) can’t nip at each other through the gate.

I’ve also been switching their cages every two days, and sometimes (if I remember) I switch their litter boxes on the days I don’t switch the cages, to try to introduce them to the other’s smell every day.

We haven’t done any bonding sessions the last two weeks.

Progress: Chara definitely seems less stressed when Bear is out (thank you!!!!!) They can both be out and go about their business. 

There’s also no more territorial marking! It was minimal before but it did happen. The doors of the cages are close to each other so she’d poop outside the door to her cage because it was near his. There hasn’t been any territorial marking since day 3/4 of our pre-bonding period.

When I swap their cages so that she’s in “his” cage, she does immediately pee outside of the litter box. Will that behavior curb, you think? Should I wait for that behavior to curb before picking up bonding sessions again?

We did have a moment where she pushed the gate closer to the other one, so that it closed that 4-inch gap, and she nipped him. Does that mean we should continue with the pre-bonding before we pick up bonding again? I.e. should we get to a point where the 2 fences aren’t necessary because she won’t try to nip him even if she has the opportunity to?

Car Ride: we did get mani-pedi’s today (our nails clipped). I brought them to the vet in the same box. I considered putting them in two different carriers since we’re focusing on pre-bonding, but since they do behave together in the car and the whole point of having more than one bun is so they can take care of each other, I put them in the same box. They were great  

Chara’s the black and white one, Bear’s the brown one. Despite that she tends to be the aggressor, you can definitely see she’s taking comfort in him by snuggling up under him

[DanaNM]

Gotta love those double purpose stress sessions! Definitely makes me feel less guilty when there is a reason behind it.

Sounds like you’ve made big improvements with the extra pre-bonding. I wouldn’t worry too much about the nip attempt when the gate was pushed too close. I think as long as they aren’t boxing the fence and trying to nip through the fence normally (when they can’t get to each other), then you are in good shape.

Regarding the peeing outside the box, it’s your call. You might not see box habits return 100% until they are bonded (or even a week or so after that).

You can give it another week and see if it gets better, but I think since you noticed a big improvement, you are probably OK to start sessions in earnest again, especially if you start with stressing.

Do you notice their behaviors “mirroring”? Or do they lay near each other on opposite sides of the fence? those are also good signs.

That car ride looks like a great session! I think often the aggressive rabbit is really the most threatened and scared. So having an outside “enemy” helps them realize the other rabbit is not as scary as they thought, and would be better off as a friend! I think it might even be a good idea to do your next few sessions as car rides, just to cement that behavior.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[charabearbuns]

Hello, again; we are back!

Quick recap: The team and I have spent the last 3 weeks pre-bonding. Chara does seem noticeably more relaxed about Bear being out and about. She also didn’t treat “his” cage like one big bathroom when she was in there yesterday (yay!)

We switch cages or litter box every day, and most days we have at least one meal together across the fence from each other.

She does still get quite spooked when he makes a noise she’s not expecting.

Of COURSE as I’m writing this he’s running the length of the fence back and forth, and she’s ‘following’ him on her side, ears back, and mildly grunting (/facepalm). They’ve never done this before! It lasted less than 20 seconds and now she’s chewing on cardboard and he’s binkying. His binkying keeps making noise which grabs her attention so she keeps coming over to the gate for a peek

Mirroring: I don’t think I’d say they’ve been mirroring; there may have been a handful (give or take) of times it looked like they could’ve been, but I think it was more likely just coincidence.

Back when I used to only have one fence between them I was quite present keeping an eye on them when they were both out and I pet her a lot while he was out. In those days, they’d flop next to each other on opposite sides of the fence. I was never sure if it was an “I-want-to-be-next-to-you” thing, or a “this-is-a-convenient-space-to-flop” thing. Either way, I haven’t seen any of that lately. But they also don’t flop next to the fence at all lately (regardless of whether the other one is there) which they each used to do quite a bit so who knows.

(and again, as I write this, he just flopped next to the fence)

Now: stress bonding! As recommended, I think I’ll spend the next 4-5 days just doing stress bonding and then straight back to their cages. Then I’ll spend the next few days doing stress bonding and a little time together, building up the time together.

Today we went for a 10-minute car ride together. They seemed to do well. They do better in the car in general when the top of the box is closed (otherwise Chara tries to stand up) so I had the top closed and it was tough to tell, but it seemed okay!

Misc. okay this is a bit random but I thought the timing was a bit interesting– Chara has always enjoyed running figure 8’s around my feet as I’m standing/walking around my room. Early on when I got her, she licked me once (and I was very flattered, of course) but she hadn’t done it again (which is fine). But lately– shortly after I put up the double fence and really started being consistent about cage/litter box swapping — Chara started licking/nibbling my feet/ankles/calves regularly. It just struck me as odd that the timing really coincided with pre-bonding

Anywho– not much of an update, but I definitely think pre-bonding was helpful and I’m excited to move forward!

[DanaNM]

That’s great! Hopefully things will be calmer now that they are a bit more used to each other.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[charabearbuns]

Question– so during our 10-min car ride last night, I peeked into the box they were in while at a red light and noticed they weren’t snuggling. They were each huddled, but not necessarily huddling towards each other. 

Should they be snuggling together? That is, are the stress sessions still effective (and thus should I keep doing them) even if it doesn’t outwardly look like they’re comforting each other?

Should I put them in a smaller box that’ll force them to be closer together? The current box is big enough that I could comfortably fit a third (mini) bunny in it, and could probably fit four (mini) bunnies snuggled up close together. A box small enough to ‘force’ them to snuggle would be difficult to still use a divider with.

(I put a divider in the box for when I first put each of them in it, and then once we get to the end of my driveway, I stop the car and pull the divider out. I’ve always done it this way because I was nervous about them fighting. Is this necessary, you think? What do other people do?)

[DanaNM]

So, I don’t think they necessarily need to be snuggling. I wouldn’t change things up too much (but maybe take some turns a little faster ). Since they aren’t fighting in the car, you might not need the divider, but whatever you feel comfortable with.

Not sure how many stress sessions you’ve done (and I can’t remember your full bonding space), but it might be a good time to try doing a stress session, then put them straight into the bonding space for a couple minutes and see how they do.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[charabearbuns]

Thank you, DanaNM!! 

I’ve done 3 stress sessions with them, three days in a row. I took yesterday off but am picking back up today and (per your suggestion) will go straight into the bonding area from the car ride. I have a few more questions….

DanaNM, you had suggested “try a car ride, and then go straight into the bonding area that works best for you, at first just spend a short bit in the bonding area, then end it. This will probably go something like them catching their breath after the car ride, then starting to explore a bit more”

My question is– you had said “spend a short bit in the bonding area” and also “this will probably look like them catching their breath, then starting to explore a bit more.’ It can take Chara 30+ minutes to catch her breath after a car ride (though Bear will take less than 10 min). So should I just spend a short bit (5-10 min) or should I wait until they both catch their breath from the car ride and start to explore a bit (even if that means they’re in there an hour)?

In the bonding area I usually have a pile of hay in the middle and miscellaneous stuff throughout (a paper towel roll, a collapsed box, a dustpan, squirt bottle, greens, etc. just stuff for them to investigate)

Other questions-

“Placement” – Any suggestions as to where I should put them in the bonding area when we get back from the car ride? Usually, I put the box they’re in into the bonding area and let them hop out of it once they become comfortable. I think I’ll probably stick with that for post-car sessions, but what about not post-car sessions? Is there any strategy around putting them in near each other vs on opposite sides of the bonding area?

Hideouts – I know usually hideouts don’t get added until “later.” Despite that we’re early in the process, I’m wondering if it might be good to use them for these post-car ride sessions, though. I feel like often when we get back from a car ride, Chara will duck into a hideout (AKA a box I’ve cut 2-3 doorways out of). Bear, in general, but also even post-car ride, doesn’t have much interest in hideouts. Since Chara: a) will be recovering from the car ride, and b) seems like she’s scared of Bear and that’s why she’s been aggressive towards him, I’m wondering if a hideout might be good for those post-car ride sessions, especially since I’d be surprised if he tried to go in it too. Though of course I’d add 2 or 3 hide outs, each with 2 or 3 “doors.” 

Progress! (?!) Also, last night when they were both out, I wondered if they were mirroring, or at the very least playing together. Bear’s not a big binky-er but last night they were both binkying a whole bunch taking turns, almost. And Chara was following him back and forth the length of the fence but not in the aggressive way she used to, more in an interested way. Her hops were happier and her ears were perked straight up rather than back. Also, they did try to check each other out a few times through the fence, but again it seemed happier! Almost every time I’ve seen them do this, Chara’s ears are pinned back; but last night when they did it, her ears were perked up!

[DanaNM]

I think I would stick to short, then gradually increase the time. It’s always tempting to push a bit longer (“to see what happens”), but early on that seems to usually lead to a scuffle.

I would just pop the box they’re in in the bonding area and let them hop out on their own. I would use the same strategy for non-car sessions.

You can try hideouts! Add at least 2, brand new, with lots of big exits so no one gets cornered. Some bonders like to use them the whole time. if they seem to get territorial over them, you can remove.

Binkies are always good! Sounds like they might be starting to warm up to each other! Or at least showing off and trying to impress!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[charabearbuns]

Helloooo! Okay, we’re back to bonding sessions!

My first question is– we had to take a week off we did four days in a row of just stress bonding (without a bonding session following our car ride) but then I got food poisoning and had to take a week off before continuing. Does that mean we have to start over?

I’ve read so much that stresses the importance of “sticking with it” and I’ve always interpreted that to mean being consistent which has lead to a belief that if we take too many days off, we have to start from scratch, is that the case or can we just keep moving forward?

Bonding Session 1! – 10 min car ride + 5 minute bonding session – (I’m moving forward with bonding sessions as intended unless someone tells me we need to start over because we took a week off, so–) We did a bonding session last night! 

We did a 10 min car ride, I took some harder turns this time (thanks, DanaNM ) and then put the box they were in straight into the bonding area (picture below)

Bear hopped out of the box almost immediately and started exploring. It took Chara 3+ minutes to hop out. When she finally did, she explored around a bit. I scooped him up and put him back in his cage after 5 minutes

First 3 minutes: Bear hopped out of the box right away; Chara kept standing up and looking outside of the box, seemingly contemplating getting out; Bear explored the area

Minutes 3-5: Chara & Bear each explored the bonding area, didn’t seem to pay any attention to the other (though I got very tense when they got within 3 feet of each other). There was no charging, chasing, thumping, or ears pinned back 

Consensus: Call me crazy, but I’m pretty ecstatic there was no obvious tension. Even though it was post-car ride and it was only 5 minutes and it’s not like they always charged at each other initially, idk I’m still inclined to call this a good (re-)start! I’m just excited nothing obviously bad happened

Next Steps?: My plan is to do 2 more days of car ride then bonding session. Does that sounds good, or should I do more?

How slowly/quickly should I increase the time of their bonding session? I.e. should I do 2-3 five-minute sessions before bumping up to 10 minutes, or should I do 5 minute, then next one 10, etc?

(I know these are difficult questions to answer without seeing them, I’m sorry, but I’d appreciate any insight)

Below is a pic of our bonding area! I took this after I’d taken Bear out, so only Chara is in there. You can see the box they were in during the car ride

Thanks everyone!

[DanaNM]

That sounds very positive! And exactly like what you hope to achieve with stressing (they are more interested in where they are than each other).

It’s kind of a judgement call with how quickly to increase the time. I think since 5 minutes was good, I’d try for 7 next… then 10…. rather than immediately doubling. Whatever you choose, I like to set the time goal ahead of time, and end on schedule. If things are not going too well at the time goal, I wait until they are calm (or I calm them by petting) and end then.

Rearranging the bonding area a bit each time will help it seem new and encourage exploring as well.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[charabearbuns]

Update on bonding sessions 2 & 3!

Bonding Session 2: 7 minutes – We went for a 10-minute car ride, then I put the box straight into the bonding area.

Minutes 0-3:30: Bear got out right away, started exploring. Again, it took Chara until about 3:30 to get out of the box

Hideouts: I included two 18 inch wide, 28 inch long, and 8 inch high boxes. The boxes had no bottom (so I could lift it up without them being in it) and I cut 3 “doors” in each

They didn’t rely on the boxes per se. The hideouts were more just another thing to explore rather than one of them parking their tush in there and hiding out. I think they were good to have. At two or three points, they were both IN THE SAME BOX (I know) and it was drama-free! No tussles- not around the box or even in general. I didn’t see any signs of hostility. Success

Bonding Session 3: 10 minutes – Again, we started with a 10-15 minute car ride. I think this will be my last stress session with them unless our next bonding sessions convince me otherwise.

Minutes 0-2: they both got out of the box pretty quickly (here they are, cuties! https://youtu.be/u-uILuLbdBY)

Minutes 2-6: they both explored around, not really near each other and seemingly ignored each other. Again, once or twice they were both in the same hide out and were totally fine!!

Minutes 6-8:30: around minute 6, Chara parked herself in one of the hideouts. For the 2 minutes Chara was in one of the hideouts, Bear continued to explore. He hopped through the hideout Chara was in one way and came out the other side, then turned around and went back through again. The second time he hopped through, Chara disapproved and grunted and kind of started at him but didn’t engage in anything physical (I’ll take it). Bear finished hopping through and hopped right to the other hide out.

Chara chinned the hideout she was in a bit, then emerged and wandered over to the hideout Bear was in. She popped in there for 5 seconds or so then turned around and hopped out; looked like she sprayed a bit as she did so. (Here’s a video of Chara checking out the hideout Bear was in: https://youtu.be/VoeNib2_-OY )

All in all, another successful session!

Next Time: as I mentioned, I think I’ll skip the stress session next time and see how they do. I think I’ll also ditch the hideouts next time (unless anyone suggests otherwise) since it seems like there’s opportunity for territorial-ism there. I think having the distraction and structure to explore was nice, so maybe I’ll make a ‘bridge’ of sorts out of a cardboard box, or put in there a little wicker chair I have. 

I’ve had hay and pellets in the middle of the area but neither bun has done more than check them out in passing.

I think I’ll do 12 minutes for our next session

[DanaNM]

That sounds really great! Definitely progress!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[charabearbuns]

Thank you, DanaNM!

Bonding Sessions 4 & 5 – 10 min each – no hideouts, no car rides to start – They both got out of the box pretty quickly and explored the area the whole time, mostly ignoring each other. When Bear gets too close to Chara, her ears will go back and she’ll kind of lunge at him but she won’t chase him or make any further movement towards him. If he’s within ‘striking’ range, she’ll nip him on the face. In either situation, Bear will hop away. 

In Session 4, Chara pinned ears & lunged at Bear maybe 4 or 5 times and nipped his face 2 or 3 times.

In Session 5, Chara pinned ears & lunged at Bear just 2 or 3 times and he never got close enough that she tried to nip him.

They each nibbled at the hay I piled in the middle of the area and the pellets I scattered over the floor. They’ve seemed to do this more each session. they don’t nibble at the same time, but still. 

I think it’s clear we’ve got to build trust, so I’ll probably continue with these 10-minute sessions until Chara’s less freaked out by Bear being near her, or, I may try using a bigger area since my roommates are gone this weekend and do a long day-time session if they seem like they’re able to relax, which they may since they usually sleep all day anyways. TBD

[charabearbuns]

Two posts in one day – oh boy!

We just wrapped up Session 6, it was 2 hours. I went with my gut. We did a 15 minute car ride first, and then into the bonding area. I doubled the bonding area size so we used the whole dining room instead of just half, the room is about 14 by 18 feet. 

We haven’t had any real issues in our other bonding sessions, so I think it’s about increasing trust. The only obstacle we ever have is when Bear gets too close to Chara, she’ll lunge at him with her ears back and sometimes nip if he gets close enough. Bear’s usually just hopping past her when this happens, so he’s quickly out of her way and she doesn’t pursue. 

My hope/goal today was that by doing a daytime session, they might be more relaxed since they usually sleep most of the day anyways and usually our sessions are in the late evening. I hoped that in a bigger space than usual would mean fewer passing interactions, that they’d be sleepier and more relaxed because it’s daytime and that spending time just snoozing in the same room would increase their trust.

It went pretty well! No real issues or breakthroughs which I’ll take as a win The only hurdles we had were the usual. There were a few times I think they surprised each other by being in the same spot at the same time, they each got spooked and hopped away.

I think having the hidouts in there was good, they seemed to take turns using them and didn’t like being in one at the same time. If one bun tried to go in a hideout the other bun was already in, the bunny inside the hideout would give a warning grunt and the bunny trying to go in the hideout would just hop away.

The buns each groomed themselves a few times, Bear laid down once or twice, they nibbled on some carrots and took turns eating the oat hay I put in the middle

At the beginning of the session, I had the hideouts stacked on top of each other, like in the pictures below. At first, they took turns. Then twice Chara hopped in while Bear was already in there and I immediately started petting them and they did well! The reason I un-stacked them was because following them both being in there, Chara was in and Bear tried to come in and she wouldn’t let him. I realized by using 2 hideouts to make 1 big hideout there was (duh) only one hideout! So I un-stacked them. 

They seemed to like the big hideout, and I did too because I had better visibility into it, so for our next session I’ll try to make another big hideout. 

I think I’ll try to replicate this again tomorrow

Here’s a short clip of some of today’s session: https://youtu.be/RW4LAy0ZbX8

[DanaNM]

That sounds very good!

It’s good that Bear is hopping away when Chara lunges. The more he doesn’t challenge her, the more she will trust him.

I think increasing the session length and keeping everything else constant is a good plan.

If you start to feel like things are stagnating, try changing up the bonding space (maybe throw down a different blanket so they don’t recognize the rug, etc.).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[charabearbuns]

Bonding Session #7 was largely like session #6; it was 2 hours, pretty uneventful, no breakthroughs but also nothing bad

Bonding Session #8 was just under 2 hours. Bear and Chara each laid down for the first time, though not at the same time. When Chara laid down (she did so 20+ min after Bear did), she had been laying down for less than 10 seconds when Bear hopped over, put is face near her bum, and she hopped right up, turned around at him, flattened her ears, and he hopped away.

Around 1 hour 45 min in, Bear was in one of the hideouts (reminder- I had added 2 large hideouts, each with 3 “doors” to help ease the stress of the stress sessions we were doing before our bonding sessions; I was giving them a place to recover. Our stress sessions stopped 3 sessions ago but since the hideouts hadn’t been a problem I kept them.) So– Bear was in one of the hideouts, Chara hopped over to one of the doors, from inside, he poked his head towards the door Chara was approaching, she gave him a nip on the nose, he stood his ground and kind of started back at her, she nipped him again; I’m not really sure how things happened next but this continued and they both wound up in the hideout so Iifted the hideout and banged a pot to startle them so they separated. All this happened in a span of 15 seconds or less.

After this incident, wanting to end on a high note, I tried to see if they’d calm down enough to let us end on a high note. But after the little debacle,  they both seemed to be going after each other. The pot-banging would separate them, they’d disperse, and then after a moment, one of them would start heading towards the other, and the other would do the same thing, and it didn’t seem amicable. 

After 5 min or so of this, I decided to try forced snuggles in the box I brought them down in. I got them both in the box but neither would stay still for pets so I returned them to their cages.

Bonding Session #9 was short, less than 30 min. I took away the hideouts. Chara seems to have a lower threshold for going after Bear. Now, if he’s within 3 feet of her, she’ll head towards him, ears back (in sessions 6 and 7, Bear could get as close to her as one foot away and she was okay). Bear used to hop away when she did this in sessions 6 and 7, but today he engaged her and nipped her back. Sometimes, though, she went after him when he wasn’t even within 3 feet of her.

This happened 4 times during our session. The first two times, I banged the pot pretty much right away to break them up. They’d disperse, go their separate ways for a few minutes, and then it’d happen again. 

Then I wondered, based on what I’ve read in other people’s bonding journals, if I should wait a moment and see where things go; if it seemed like they were escalating vs if one would yield, so to speak. 

So the third time it happened, I waited a moment before banging the pan and they did stop things on their own very quickly, though that may have been a consequence of space based on where it happened

The fourth time it happened, again I waited a moment, but it didn’t seem like it was going to deescalate so I banged the pot. 

Wanting to end on a good note, I put them in the box I brought them down in and did forced snuggles & pets for 5 min.

Naturally, this is a bummer but we were due for a rough patch since things had been going so well. 

Not entirely sure where to go from here, other than potentially restarting stress sessions before our bonding sessions.

[DanaNM]

So, one thing I notice about your bonding area is that it’s got some rugs. those probably are starting to be pretty familiar to them. It might help to put down some clean towels or blankets (or even a tarp) to make the area less familiar.

Same thing with hideouts… if they are the same ones each time, they will become less neutral.

Also if you’ve stopped doing stressing, it might help to return to some stressing at the beginning.

Things can definitely be back and forth at this point, so try not to feel too defeated. I think whenever something works (like stressing), keep doing it. If it doesn’t seem to be working, remove it or change it.

And I think I’ve said this before, but a complete change of scenery can also help! (a friend’s garage perhaps?)

I also think if they are getting tense when near each other, revert back to petting them to calm them down (especially Chara, if she’s going after him for no obvious reason).

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[charabearbuns]

Session #11 – 30 min
We started with a 10 min car ride
The session was mostly the same, the pretty much ignored each other except for 2 altercations. But after each altercation, it seemed like they were able to go about their own business for a while before the next altercation happened. That’s a bit different than usual, where after one altercation, they both seem to be on edge and subsequent altercations crop up more readily, so I guess that’s good

Chara’s definitely the initiator– this 11 second video kind of shows it — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8COkqDhcIQ — she creeps up to him, he’s crouched in the corner. That little hop he does is pretty funny, I think! Can’t tell if he’s trying to pounce on her or, more likely, trying to hop over her and run away

I tried to let them sort this one out on their own. Right after this happened, they went their separate ways for a few seconds, then she crept towards him again and another altercation ensued so I banged the pot and they went their separate ways again
The first altercation happened 8 min in, the next two were around 20-25

This was our third session with this blanket on the floor, so I won’t use it in tonight’s session since it’s probably become less neutral (thanks, DanaNM!) I also haven’t been using hideouts anymore.

Though the dining room has been working for us, I think I’ll do tonight’s session in the living room as part of trying to keep our sessions in a neutral space, then maybe switch back to the dining room in a few days (assuming things go fine in the living room and we don’t need to switch back sooner)

I’ll also try heading to my mom’s house this weekend for a session

[charabearbuns]

Session #12 – 30 min – we did a 10 min car ride and then a 30 min bonding session in my living room instead of my dining room because I thought the dining room might have been becoming less neutral after so many sessions.

The area is about 6 feet by 9 feet and there’s a large coffee table that takes up about a third of the space. I had oat hay in the middle and no hideouts.

The session seemed pretty good. Chara kind of staked out under the coffee table and if Bear would hop through too quickly, she’d start at him.

When Chara threatened Bear, he’d hop away. I’m glad he’s doing that again; he used to do that, then he stopped, and he would engage with her, but now he’s back to hopping away when she tries to engage him.

At one point, she did nip him pretty good. I stepped in to pet her to de-escalated. I was petting her for 5 min or so and he was able to get decently close to her to eat some hay nearby.

Towards the end of the session, I was petting Bear (he rarely sits and just lets someone pet him so given that he was letting me, I was taking advantage of the opportunity), and Chara came over, ears pinned back. I started petting her too. They sat there nose to nose while I pet them both (swapping hands to swap scents) for 5-10 min.

Then, Bear headed towards the carrier that I used to drive them around in. (I put it into the bonding area as I’m ending the session in the hopes that one of them will hop into it so that, for their sake, I don’t have to pick them up.) Bear was taking his time checking out the carrier; he’d put his head in; pull it out, then put the front half of his body in, pull it out, etc. While he was doing that, Chara came up behind him and nipped him right in the bum.

He jumped real high and ran away, she got nervous and cowered in a corner and I ended the session.

Would’ve liked to end on a higher note, but it didn’t feel too too bad and I had been about to end it anyways.

Will follow the same game plan tonight and then try heading to my mom’s tomorrow.

[DanaNM]

Sounds decent!

It’s good that he’s retreating…. often that is a turning point.

Fingers crossed Chara will get the message that he’s not out to get her (and he will keep retreating)!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[charabearbuns]

Hi all! Just checking in

We’re on session #17 or so; things have been pretty much the same.

We almost always start with a car ride first, and our sessions tend to be around 30 minutes, except for the 1.5 hour one we did at my mom’s house over the weekend. We also switch up rooms every 2-3 days or so.

Seems like we’re averaging on about 3 sessions a week, so maybe if I up the frequency there it’d help.

We haven’t had any break through’s really, but I do suppose that I bang the pot/spray them with water less than I used to, maybe.

Otherwise, we’ll just keep on keeping on!

[DanaNM]

I think at this point I’d try for a bit longer sessions (try for an hour, then 1.5… then 2), as long as the shorter ones don’t seem like they are worse at the end than the beginning.

More frequent sessions would probably help too. Sometimes I wonder if it’s really just the total number of hours together that matters the most. Hard to say though!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

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