Bonding Woes

[vtsats]

I need some advice from fellow rabbit lovers.

 

I’ve got a 3 1/2 year old neutered male flemish giant, Remy, that I’ve had since he was 6 months old. Very people friendly, follows me around and exhibits almost dog-like behaviour.

I recently adopted Wednesday, an 8 month old mini-rex and I had her spayed about 3 1/2 weeks ago. Wednesday was intially apprehensive when she moved in, but she has quickly opened up to me and has become very curious about Remy.

I have Wednesday housed in my living room, and Remy initially had the second bedroom. About two weeks ago I moved them into the living room together and placed the cages side by side.

After a week, the rabbits still occasionally try to get at each other through the bars. When I let Remy out, he will come by her cage and if I am not right in the vicinity of their interaction, they fight through the bars. On the other hand, when I let Wednesday out, she will come by Remy’s cage and there will be no fighting.

 

I have had four bunny dates in the bathtub. First one was ok – lots of indifference and eating. The second, third and fourth dates have all resulted in Remy being very tense and biting Wednesday, and then a full fledged fight will break out (which I quickly stop). She began by running away, but will now turn around and fight back. Lots of fur flying, kicking, grunting and I always end up in tears. My flemish seems to be very uncomfortable and will not move from the corner. Wednesday will come over with genuine curiousity and try to sniff around him, which always ends up in him nipping/biting her and her either running away or fighting back. I have held them side by side, pushed against one another, with me continuously petting them to distract them and they seem to tolerate this, but i’m not sure what i’m doing wrong.

 

[tanlover14]

First off, their individual play time is not bonding time. The rabbits should only be able to interact together during bonding. If it’s upsetting either of them that the other rabbit is there while they’re having their own out time, it’s only encouraging aggression and anxiety which can cause a ton of problems when bonding. They need to be separated and out of each others sites while the other is roaming free. Now, they can be caged close to each other but I would only do this if it’s helping not hindering. To me, it sounds like it’s definitely hindering their relationship.

I would take a week or two off from bonding, separate them completely so they have NO interaction, and then start over.

[MoveDiagonally]

I agree with TL. It seems like the interaction during their play time is negatively affecting their bonding.

[JackRabbit]

They are both right. I did the same thing, but they only got near each other’s cages by accident. The accidental through-the-bars contact brought on major aggression even after having “successful” bonding sessions. We’re on a long bonding break right now to let us all recover emotionally!

[vtsats]

Thanks everyone! I’ll be separating them and starting over.

[tanlover14]

Feel free to continue your post once you start again, vtsats! This is a great place to share your bonding experience. I’ve always found while bonding my group that the extra support can really push me to keep going even if I’m not seeing a lot of progress!

[vtsats]

After a long vacation for everyone (about a month) I’m back at bonding. I have seperated my buns completely again and am trying a different neutral space. Instead of the bathtub, I’m using my balcony. Loud noises, cold flooring and wind make this space a slight stressor. I had my rex out there first and then I put my flemmy out there after. After some general exploration, I offered them both their papaya pills which they LOVE and after eating, they were nose to nose. I was petting both during the entire interaction and it only lasted 2-3 minutes long but I figured this was a better note to end on then nipping and fighting.

Stay tuned for more updates!

[vtsats]

Day 2:

Did not go smoothly. I put my rex out there first, with a big bowl of kale. She was happily munching away when I put my flemmy in, who moved immediately to the corner and refused to eat anything but his Papaya pill. Both rabbits were side by side. My rex continued to eat, and my flemmy continued to look terrified. It seemed as though they were doing ok, but then She (the rex) nipped at my flemmy twice. A quick spray and I was able to break it up.
She then came back around, and a fight broke out. My rex was kicked away and then came back. My flemmy then pinned her down and was biting at her. I reached in and broke it up (getting badly bitten in the process because I’m an idiot and didn’t wear oven mitts). Sprays of water did nothing and they continued to fight for a bit. They managed to end up nose to nose, but without me petting them, they fight.
I have checked both for bites and there are no injuries, however my rex has a tuft of hair missing from right above her eye. That leaves me feeling really uneasy about putting them back together.

I’ll try a laundry basket and some stressing but it seems everytime they get a free moment, they fight.
Anyone have any ideas?

[vtsats]

Continuation of Day 2:
I went back after a few hours and put both my guys in a laundry basket, covered the top with a towl and walked around rocking it. Both rabbits were kind of leaning into one another. I moved the basket for about 10 minutes and then stopped and petted them for a few minutes.

Can anyone comment on stress bonding? Any tips?

[Sindri]

I think the what you are doing with the laundry basket sounds good. I use a box for mine I move it around and carry it around. It breaks up fights better than anything else I have tried thus far. I would keep at that if it is currently working for you. A lot of people recommend car rides. I did one that was over 40 minutes and it went great. you could try that too.
Best of luck!

[vtsats]

Update:

After 5 stress bonding (laundry basket) meetings, the bunnies are still showing some signs of stress and did occasionally fight. In such a small space, the damage was minimised greatly and i had more confidence handling them.

At the end of last week, I moved the buns back to the bathtub. My flemmy is still incredibly tense, and I can tell if I left him to interact fully with my rex, a full fight would break out. I have placed a towel on the bathtub floor to provide some traction and i will leave kale and a toy or two in there with them. My flemish just keeps to himself, does not eat the kale and basically pleads with me through his adorable eyes to take him out of that horrible place. My rex has the time of her life in there and munches happily away, and takes the occasional sniff at the big guy. The only thing my flemmy will eat in there are treats and his papaya pill, which I always give them when they are close to each other. I know he is too tense to fully engage so I’m hoping with more sessions in there he’ll realize he’s not in any danger and lighten up a little. GEEZ.

So far, no fight sessions in the bath tub, however, still a lot of tense-ness. No break-throughs yet, but a few small, tiny, micro, MINUSCULE steps forward, which I’ll take!

Good luck and God speed fellow bonders!

[vtsats]

Another Update:

More bathtub sessions with relative indifference. My rex continues to gorge herself on kale, while my flemish waits anxiously for treats. The moments that they are are both not eating are tense and they do end up tussling a little bit. My flemish actually laid down once in the bathtub yesterday, which I considered a huge break-through, however they did up tussling a bit in the tub. They still remain relatively to themselves, until they stop eating. Then they sniff one another and my flemish either tries to smack my rex by lunging/darting at her or she nips his side.

I’m not seeing much progress considering it’s been a month and they still fight when they have significant contact with one another. Any advice from bonding pros?

On another note – I am looking at moving my rex into my flemish’s bedroom. He will continue to have about 2/3’s of the bedroom and she will get the remaining 1/3. I have an ex-pen that I was considering using as a divider, but there are several spaces all throughout the ex-pen where my buns can stick their faces. When face-to-face, they nip, bite and lunge at each other.

Is it best to let them have an interaction and ‘clear-the-air’ or should I be using a divider that does not allow them to see one another at all? I feel like because I break up any scuffle they have, I may be prolonging the agony, but there is also quite a size difference between my two buns and I’m concerned my little one will get hurt. Any recommendations from other rabbit owners? Any recommendations on how to house them separately?

[Clarajb]

I’m not sure I have much advice, but I appreciate you sharing your journey – I’m just starting mine and I’m at the point where I may have to keep them out of each other’s sight except for bonding times. Good luck, and I’ll be reading!

[vtsats]

If anyone is interested in watching a typical session between two rabbits who are dead set on NOT being friends, I’ve uploaded a bonding session onto youtube.

Any comments/feedback would be much MUCH appreciated!!!

(Part 1) http://youtu.be/qRdxDWmp9NU

(Part 2) http://youtu.be/d55EN6IQfX8

(Part 3) http://youtu.be/Fqa2Fojq63Q

(Part 4) http://youtu.be/Z7ONx7BjJ1g

(Part 5) http://youtu.be/uOZYWRiPklQ

[MayaConsuelo]

Hi! I’m going through a similar thing myself. I’m trying to bond a new adopted rabbit (maybe 2-year-old New Zealand white female) with my baby Mr. Bun-Bun (5-year-old mini Rex male.) I watched the first video you posted (will watch the others when I’m not at work.) Your rabbits are definitely fighting more than mine – however after the first nip/tussle, I break them apart, we calm them down with head pets, and then end the session. The volunteers that helped us do the speed dating recommended only a minute or less when the bonding is problematic. I’m also not really seeing any progress – from what I’ve heard it can take a really long time (even 6 months!) I’d rather do it slowly and have nobody get hurt though.

My rabbits do the same thing with nipping through the bars – I cover up each pen with a sheet when the other rabbit is out – but they find a way under the sheet and start provoking each other (I can’t keep an eye on them every second!) I’ve also seen them touch noses through the bars with no nipping, so that’s a good sign, right?

Sorry if this post isn’t really helpful as much as commiseration. The volunteers said that two danger signs that a bad fight could break out are 1. Head to tail yin-yang style, circling each other. 2. one bunny burrowing under the other’s side. I saw your bunnies doing both of those things in the video. So maybe stop the sessions sooner, even if it feels like no progress is getting made?

My other issue is that taking a break and completely separating the rabbits isn’t possible for us since we live in a NYC apartment, so I don’t want the fighting to progress to a level where that’s necessary. We just don’t have the room!

[vtsats]

Hey, bonding misery loves company! When I first joined the site, I had a hard time tracking down other owners who were having an equally trying time.

I was previously doing short sessions that not lasted minutes, but that didn’t seem to help. Then I thought if I extended the sessions it might get better – not the case either.
I’ll keep an eye out for the head to tail and burrowing. It’s hard to tell the difference between what could potentially be a breakthrough and a preemptive strike. Brutal!

[vtsats]

Bonding session update:

Still in the bathtub. For this session, I took some time to meticulously prepare a plate of delicious greens (and some raspberries) for my buns. That beautiful masterpiece lasted all of 30 seconds when After placing my Flemish in the tub, he darted at my rex and then kicked the plate all over the bathtub.
😐

It seems my sessions are actually getting worse. When they were a few minutes long, I felt like there was no progress. So I stuck this one out. There were three fights I had to break up (including one that had my
Flemish accidentally bite my forearm so badly that when I went to pull my arm back he was ATTACHED to me still).

Something new to note was a few minutes after a scuffle, my rex kind of flopped over onto her side twice. Not near my flem, but over to the side. He kind of
Backed off when she did it, but then she back on her feet quick enough. I’m not convinced it was submission, more than likely just out of sheer exhaustion.
A few minutes later my Flemish laid down, which he’s NEVER DONE. It wasn’t a full sprawl but I’ll take what I can get.
Rabbits ended up nose to nose so I put my hand on their heads and petted them slowly for about 10 minutes. When I was finished, my flem kind of darted his two front feet out at my rex and they ignored each other. I managed to get them in a side by side smoosh position and petted them like this, side by side for 15 minutes. I ended the session with their papaya pill, in this same position.

Any professional rabbit bonders/behaviourists in Toronto? I’ve got a challenge for you!

[BunnyBrigade]

I noticed in your video that you have a towel with them. I would take it out and instead put in one of the shelf liners. It looks like your little black bun gets freaked out and lashes out in response to that fear. Having maybe a better grip will but him/her at ease. The ignoring of each other is what you want. It’s better than aggression. I, also, noticed that you’re petting your orange bun while ignoring your black one. It looked like your orange bun went after your other when he felt you were ignoring him. I would suggest taking yourself out of the equation. Your orange bun seems more interested in getting pets from you than wanting to bond with your other bun.

[MayaConsuelo]

It sounds like your most recent bonding session went pretty well – although they may have given up out of exhaustion like you mentioned, maybe that’s a good thing?

I’m actually having a volunteer from the HRS come to my house on Sunday to do a bonding session and give me advice. I can’t wait, I’ll let you know what she suggests. She said they don’t recommend tub bonding because it can get dangerous (not sure why that would be worse than anything else – maybe the small area?) I have no idea where else I can bond however as there’s no neutral territory in our apartment. Once again last night my bunnies were trying to nip each other through the bars (they eat their dinner peacefully side-by-side for the most part, but every other time someone decides to launch a mini-attack at the bars.)

Good luck! It sounds like it’s going to be a long haul for both of us!

[Nbunr]

I could be way off (I know more about dogs then bunnies) but could the food be making them aggressive?

[vtsats]

MayaConsuelo – let me know how it goes! I’m so excited for you!!
Nbunr – I could try a no-food session and see if that changes the dynamic – good idea!

I actually ended up contacting a bonding guru from a UK rabbit association. I emailed her and provided an explanation of their personalities and she gave me some good advice. My flemish (orange guy) is very human oriented. I often have people comment that he is like a dog, and unlike any other rabbit anyone’s ever met. Mairwen (the guru) re-iterated that rabbits who are human oriented are often impossible to bond as they lack natural rabbit instincts, and will remain aggressively territorial regardless of the partner. I am more than willing to bet my flemmy falls into this category, if after 3 months of bonding, no progress has been made.

She provided me with two options, the slow track (don’t see how this could get any slower) and the typical fast track:

1. Slow Track:
– move my guys so they are living side by side for 2-3 months (separated by a wire mesh barrier so they cannot get at each other). If they shown signs of warming up to one another, try another introduction after that point.

2. Fast Track:
– move completely outside of my condo and try another neutral space.

I will be trying a car ride sometime this week to see if this works, or my boyfriend’s condo. if there are no signs that progress is being made, I will try the slow track. If the slow track doesn’t work, I may consider fostering a THIRD rabbit (Lord, help me) and trying to bond him to my black female. If all goes well, i’ll add a third.

Based on my flemish’s (orange) interaction with dogs in the past, I may consider getting him a non-bunny friend. I was going to buy a cat from a breeder, so I may end up fostering a cat as well.

Basically I’m going to have a farm. That was the just of that.

[MayaConsuelo]

The bonding session was pretty fun and informative actually. The woman who helped out was super nice – she’s had a lot more experience with rabbits than I have. Basically the bathtub is too small, she recommended using our hallway (about 12 feet long) and blocking off the access points so the rabbits have to stay in the hallway. We put one bunny in there first, let her calm down, and placed a litterbox with hay at each end so they have a comfortable spot to run to. After a few minutes we brought in Mr. Bun-Bun and placed him at the other end of the hallway from Blixa. She used a shoe to keep them from attacking and we watched while he approached. They attempted to squabble a little bit but she blocked with the shoe each time. Basically you don’t want them to fight at all and not even nip each other! So any time they were sitting kind of near each other and doing nothing, that was good. Any time they tried to engage in a negative manner, she blocked it from happening. After awhile they got really tired and both laid down. We even fed them breakfast off a big plate together, and only at the end Mr. Bun-Bun lashed out at Blixa again (it’s true, they can get jealous of food when they’re not used to each other.) Overall she kept them together a lot longer than she recommended us to do – she said 2 minutes at first.

So basically we’re right at the beginning of the bonding process. But now I feel a little calmer about it – it’s going to take awhile, but I don’t think any bunny’s going to get hurt, we’re going to be careful and do it slowly.

[vtsats]

So I decided to take a few weeks hiatus and try a totally different approach. MayaConsuelo, I took the same approach you did.

I sectioned off my hallway and put both rabbits in. I stood out of their line of sight with a pan and spoon (I know – I sound crazy). Quite a bit of scuffling in the beginning, lots of fur flying, but they seemed to not be full blown fighting.
When the nipping and chasing got to be a bit much, I would bang the pan and scare them.
After the scuffling, my female rex would stand as far away from my male as possible. He would come up and sniff her. He also… Hold your breath for this folks…. Laid down almost right beside her!
On a negative note – my Flemish male got a cut on his upper lip, so I’ve put some polysporin on it and I’ll be monitoring it over the next day.

I’m going to try this for a week or so. If I don’t see any improvement I will separate them again. My boyfriend and I are looking at moving in together, so if this next round of bonding doesn’t work, I’ll wait until we’re settled in our new place and use this as the perfect opportunity to try bonding in a truly ‘neutral’ space.

[vtsats]

Reaching out again for some advice:

I now have my two in an ex-pen, as I found the hallway was too large of a space. 

They are fighting less and less, and I now realize I should have let them hash it out a bit more, but I have encountered a NEW PROBLEM 

My flemish is trying to display dominance with some harmless lunging (he basically taps at my rex – looks like he’s trying to get her attention) and nips her occasionally. However my rex sits as far away from him and avoids him. If he comes near her, she will sit with her back turned and then after a few minutes (or if my flemish makes a sudden movement), she’ll bolt away from him and he’ll chase her (I try to break this up everytime). 

My question is – I obviously cannot (and would not want to) force her to interact, but is this avoidance just something that will go away with time? She will eat if there is food near her, and she will groom herself if he’s on the other side of the ex-pen, so I know this isn’t anything TOO serious, but I was wondering if anyone could tell me if this will in any way get better?

If I can bond these two, I deserve a medal. There has to be a ‘Bonding Awards Ceremony’ or something, because this has been the BANE OF MY EXISTENCE. 

Here are my guys, btw (always nice to put adorable faces to names)

Remy Le Beau – my flemmy (~12lbs)

Wednesday – My mini-rex (~5lbs)

[vtsats]

Happy to report my buns are bonded and in LOVE with each other now!

THANK THE LAWD

[Author]

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