BONDING TROUBLES

[Bunnybonkers]

“Some advice would be greatly appreciated. 

 I have two rabbits Jessica a 9 year old mini rex who I adopted a year ago. My partner and I fostered her for 4 months when her owner a dear friend of mine became sick. She returned to my friend and a year later when my friend sadly passed away I took Jessica back permanently She has never had a friend, after a year with us I thought it would be good idea to see if we could bond her with another bunny to enhance her life. She is in great health and a real character. 

Two months ago along came Hopsy. I wanted a male and a bunny closer in age to Jessica but when the chance came to adopt Hopsy I took it. Hopsy is 3 year old female Lionhead, who was bonded with another female rabbit who passed away a year before I adopted her, so she was on her own for year. Both are neutered. 

I am 8 weeks into this experience. I have followed closely the bonding advice I was given, the pre-bonding, side-by-side cages, swapping litter, swapping cages stage and even car rides in the same carrier. Bunny dates in a neutral territory starting in the bath, then the bathroom floor, leading up to 8 hour sessions, then a 17-day marathon bonding session in my kitchen, again neutral territory. They are both now in a pen in their permanent space in the living room. Once they are fully bonded they will be roam free in in the downstairs of the house.

Jessica tried to dominate Hopsy the first 3-4 meetings, and they did get quite physical. Hopsy fought back and Jessica has been on the run ever since but never submitted to Hopsy. So I now have two very stubborn bunnies on my hands. Jessica runs, Hopsy chases and nips, nothing serious but fur does fly. They lived quietly together during much of the 17-days with no issues. there was no grooming or physical closeness, a few sniffs, nose to nose touches, but no fighting either. Jessica will not use the littler tray as Hopsy so I have made two available for their use. 

Since moving them to the living room three days ago, fur started flying again. I have made the space bigger and this has helped to help tremendously and calm has been somewhat restored. I will be honest I am fearful that this bond will not work. That I have made a big mistake, although they are not enemies they are not friends. Jessica does not seem to want to make friends, Hopsy seems frustrated and does not know how to make friends with a rabbit who will not give her a chance. She has got into the habit of chasing and nipping. Take today for example I held them side by side for a ten minutes petting session, all was well until Hopsy nipped Jessica, it is almost like she is trying to force interaction, any interaction.

I have read articles asked for advice, talked to my vets, tried to do everything I can think of, from car rides, to banana on their heads, stroking together. Equal affection but nope they are still not friends! I am thinking that they may never be close and that as long as they are not fighting I might have to be happy with that. Hopsy is here to stay so this is it, I might have to accept this is the best they are ever going to get. 

They are both great bunnies, both love a cuddle and are fine being handled, especially Hopsy who is a real cuddle bun and will sit on your lap for as long as you are willing to stroke her. Jessica is more independent but has grown closer and closer to my partner and I and is now happy to be picked up and handled as long as it’s on her terms. The best way to describe their relationship is that they are not enemies but neither are they friends. 

That’s it, any advice, encouragement, tips, experience greatly appreciated. I know Hopsy has a had a lot over-come a new house, new people, new bunny and Jessica has also been through a lot losing my friend and her home which was the only home Jessica ever knew. I am 8 weeks in and I’m trying hard not to lose hope, but even my ever optimistic nature is s starting to take a beating, thanks in advance. Kat”

[Bunnybonkers]

Thank you for the advice already received which was accidentally deleted. It was much appreciated and I will take it all onboard.

[DarthVadar]

Bunnies bond through fear. If there is nothing to be scared of, they could care less about each other, in some cases. First, put them in a smaller area, like an X pen for bonding sessions. Try running the vacuum near them. It may freak them out enough that they seek each other’s comfort. Sit them down right next to each other and pet both of them at the same time. This saved my bonded pair. I thought they would never get along, but this made it so they were bonded days later. Remember to add treats to the bonding area. Watch for signs of relaxation: grooming, eating, flopping, laying down.

[DanaNM]

Hi again,

Note: I had posted a longer reply to this originally but then accidentally deleted the thread!

I just wanted to summarize my thoughts for reference, and in case any one else come across this.

The bonding process and interactions so far sounded strikingly familiar to a bond I had that failed (I detailed that experience here: https://binkybunny.com/FORUM/tabid/54/aft/150382/Default.aspx). The main difference being that both of Bunnybonkers’ buns (say that 5 times fast!) are friendly towards people. But in that “bond”, the buns reached a point of mutual tolerance and relaxed behavior, but never got close. They didn’t groom or cuddle. So my main advise in this case has to do with getting past the plateau of mutual tolerance, to get them to the point where they are truly bonded.

I am thinking either a full stop to kind of reset things, or a shift in strategy to kind of shake things up. A new location could help, as well as things to help generate positive associations with each other, since Jessica and Hopsy seem to be locked in a cycle of fearing each other. DarthVadar is right in that stress can help, as buns realize that the outside world is scary and they are better off being friends. With my two, car rides worked, vacuuming didn’t really. I would often start out a longer session with a car ride together (mostly out of necessity, as I often bonded at a location outside of my home). I also recommend petting them both a lot and swapping scents whenever they approach each other, so that they start to trust each other more.

As contrast to the failed bond, here is an article I wrote about my most recent bonding experience that was successful, but was tough and took several months: http://www.bunssb.org/bunnies/bonding-two-stubborn-senior-buns/

The main thing to take away is that if you don’t feel they are bonded, then they aren’t. If they aren’t cuddling and grooming, then they aren’t there yet.

One other thing that I didn’t mention in my original post, is that sometimes a new human can help things! Not sure if you have a rescue in your area, but often they have experienced bonders who can give feedback. Bertha and BunJovi were stuck in a major rut, and I had one of the shelter volunteers work with them. Just having a neutral PERSON made a big difference, because she did not have any pre-conceived notions of how they should behave, and they also didn’t associate her with any particular behaviors. So that might be worth exploring as well!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bunnybonkers]

Thank you both so much for your comments advice and information. You have no idea how helpful this is, as I feel as if I am walking in a bunny wilderness!

For the time being I am going to try and keep going forward, if all is lost and I lose hope I will rewind right back to the beginning again, if that is what is needed. Better to reset than keep going and making things worse.

I have been going through past videos and pictures and a lot of progress was made, this week really has been a set-back.

Today I tried the stress bonding as recommended, I took them out in their pet carrier and walked around a local park for an hour, then sat in a coffee shop for an hour, as it was so cold.

Once I retuned home, I kept them in the carrier for another 30 minutes, whilst I completed a few chores, placing them back in the pen area but not taking them out of the carrier.

I made the space they had smaller as a bigger space seemed to encourage chasing.

On taking them out of the carrier there was a little scuffle, my heart sank and I was like ok, this is really not going to work and I was honestly ready to admit defeat.

But then….

Jessica came out to eat in the pen rather than just sitting in the litter tray, which is what she has practically been doing for the past four days.

She is now relaxing in the open pen eating and grooming. Hopsy is on the other side also eating, sleeping and grooming. There has been a few sniffs and Jessica seems inquisitive.

She is still on the run but not frantic anymore…
Hopsy is still in the habit of nipping Jessica, who tentatively went up to her and Hopsy went for a little nip!

Getting someone in for another perspective may well be a good thing; I will have a look around and see if there is anyone from a rescue or charity who is willing to help me.

Although small, progress was made today so I am going to take them out again tomorrow. If I could just borrow a pram from somewhere to strap in the pet carrier and push it around, that would make life a lot easier than carrying two rabbits, althoughI lift weights after a while these two proved quite heavy!

.

The good thing is Jessica is now moving around the pen and no longer stuck in one space. Hopsy just did a big flop in the corner, a peaceful lull has fallen over the bunny pen for the time-being.This is the best they’ve been in 4 days.

I can’t believe that I have turned into a mad bunny woman who is now walking around her area with two bunnies.

I hope my friend (Jessica’s mum) is having a good chuckle in heaven at my expense.

[Bunnybonkers]

Nope did not work!

Jessica seems ready to move on, tentatively seeking out Hopsy, but Hopsy is intent on nipping Jessica…..They are in one big C&C pen I will separate them whilst I am not around as they can no longer be trusted on their own. It is time to seriously consider starting all over again.

I cannot tell you how upset I am, I think I and the bunnies need a break from all of this. 

[Bunnybonkers]

Ok receiving advice from a U.K based animal adoption service…Feeling a bit more hopeful, need to take a few steps back before I can move forward.

[Bunnybonkers]

[Bunnybonkers]

[DanaNM]

Sometime really tiny spaces can help, especially if stress is involved. It sounds like they had a really good session after the stressing, so I would try to repeat that exact structure if possible! Or even just do the stressing and see if that helps. It didn’t work for me, but if you notice your two don’t nip or circle in small spaces, “microspace” bonding works for some pairs.

I agree that separating between sessions is prob the way to go. And try to really time the end of the session so they are relaxed when you end it.

Interested to hear what the bonders say! I know in the UK professional bonders are a thing, I wish that was an option here in the US!

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Laragc]

I have a professional bonder in San Diego. He does phone consults. PM me if you want his info!  He gave me an hour consult today and it was so incredibly helpful.  

[Laragc]

I’m JUST starting (day 2 at home after five shelter dates) bonding two girls. I had a consult with a professional bonder today and he told me something interesting – when you are bonding two girls, they often reach this point where neither one of them will back down and both want to be dominant.  It sounds like your girls might be there. I’d go back a few steps into a smaller space and see if you can get them to figure out who is the Dom in their pairing in a safe way.  Our guy does phone consults so if you want his number, let me know, although he’s in the U.S.

[Bunnybonkers]

Hi DanaNM,

 thank you for your reply, Yes initially it was a good reaction  after the stress bonding, bar that tiny scuffle, so I am going to see if I can get a second hand pet stroller from somewhere so I can take them out again or ride up and down on the London tube system for an hour if I can’t find a pet stroller. 

These two are funny, most of the time small spaces have not been great, but really small spaces seem to work for them, no fighting or nipping , so I will look into micro bonding further.

The bonder works for a great rabbit adoption charity, in Devon, England, who give out professional bonding advice, we have been in contact previously but she took time off over Christmas and has just got back  in touch withme in the nick of time. 

CHANGES 

They are to be kept separate but next to each other 

Below is a diagram of how I have been instructed to set their pen area out. 

 

Food and water bowls opposite each other. Little trays near to each other. 

Feeding time: To be fed at the same time but bowls removed after an hour.

Exercise time: Remove the fencing that is separating them, remove everything in the pens, wipe the pens down, wash all bowls, put in one large little tray and one water bowl.

 Below is a diagram of how their pen should be set out, when they are together. 

. 

Leave them for a couple of hours or until there are show signs of frustration, no nipping, chasing, fighting allowed!

Hopefully this should force them to realise that being together has benefits, as there is no individual exercise time, they only exercise together or not at all.  I am to try this for a week taking videos and pictures to keep her informed and then we will reassess. 

I don’t know about the bunnies but I am less stressed, even if my 1/3 of my living-room looks like a rabbit warren.

I have already rearranged their pens. 

That is it for now, hopefully I will start seeing some real progress, not just tolerating each other.

Thank you for your support. 

I hope I do not go grey by the end of this! 

There bunnies are teaching me a hell of a lot about patience. 

[Bunnybonkers]

Hi Laragc, 

thank you for taking out the time to reply to me. Luckily a professional bonding from a bunny fostering/adoption service  in the U.K has taken me under her wing and is trying to help me navigate my away around these two very stubborn bunnies.

I think you are right both of them wish to be dominant and that is why we are at a stalemate! The advice was in fact just as you suggested to go back a few steps and see if things can be worked out rather than moving forward or I would say sitting in checkmate! I laid out in an earlier reply to DanaNM the instructions I have been given, which I will be following down to the letter!

How are your two rabbits getting on?

 How have you found the whole bonding process?

I hope it all goes well for you.

Bunnybonkers. 

[DanaNM]

Very interesting! I’m curious to see how this goes, as it’s definitely a different type of strategy.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bunnybonkers]

So we are three days into our new set up and things have been up and down but more up than down.

Day 1 Monday 6thJan
No problems, living side by side, no nipping through the bar, mirroring of behaviour. (There is space between t he bars to ensure no one is hurt).

Clean pen, remove barrier, and create one large pen, no issues they are out for about 1.5 hours. Jessica is still on the run from Hopsy, but Hopsy is unbothered. I stop the session when Jessica begins to thump.

Tuesday 7thJan
My partner holds the sessions as I am out to work, but I sort out the pens, cleaning them and removing the barrier and leave them to it. Half a hour later I received a text to say Hopsy went for Jessica. He separates them again.

Tell him to check for bites, but Jessica is fine and they are both back to normal when in separate pens,

Wednesday 8thJan
My partner holds them both for about 30 minutes and they are fine.
Been a long stress day so I take today off and will go back to doing sessions again tomorrow.

A lot of mirroring of behaviour goes on, eating at the same time, grooming at the same time. Hopsy seems to seek out Jessica by lying by the fence close to Jessica.

They are both pretty calm and relaxed eating well, toilet habits are fine.

I have purchased a second hand pet stroller and although I will look like a complete nutter. when the time is appropriate I would like to put them in their carrier together and drive the around. They seem to do well in mirco spaces and when I had them in their carrier for two hours together there was no problems at all.

My stress levels have gone down and the bunnies seem pretty chill as well. So far things are ok…..

[Bunnybonkers]

Ok just spoke to my bonder and she is happy with how it Is all going, she said with Hopsy likely to be the dominant rabbit it is expected she will go for Jessica once in a while to put her in her place. When that happens we are to stop the session and put them back in their respective pens. This is too teach them they have to place nice to get more space.

`The advice is to take them directly from their separate pens and place them in the pet carrier, then into the pet stroller and take them for a walk, once home place them straight into the pen but open up the pen and allow them to be together, monitor how they behave. Fingers crossed the idea is they will cling to each other for support and that will help build the bond, we shall see.

Jessica and Hopsy are very stubborn, Jessica does not look like she is ready to submit to Hopsy anytime soon, maybe they will find a way to forge a bond without one needing to be dominant…wistful thinking……maybe….

I spoke with my partner today about how to arrange things if we are unable to bond them successfully. Hopsy is not going back to where we got her from, end of the day her previous owners will just look for someone else to adopt her as they no longer wish to keep her, I knew when I adopted her, there was no going back come what may so, wether Jessica and her become friends or not she’s not going anywhere.

My partner is concerned for Jessica but I am not, this is not a great situation but she is eating and acting like her normal self, yes she is an older bunny, but she is fit and healthy and holding her own. The time to throw in the towel is not yet, Ultimately if this works Jessica will have a bunny friend and a new wonderful experience and if it doesn’t work, oh well, we will all have to find a way to all live amicably together. I love them both, there is enough love in this house for the two of them whether they are friends of not.

Although the bonder is adamant that it will not come to that. That two rabbits of the same sex can take longer to bond but thinks we will get there in the end! I am not 100 percent sure, we shall see, we shall see…

[DanaNM]

Sounds like things are going better! It honestly is so important to have a set-up you feel good about. I feel like the added stress of not having a good set up puts un-necessary pressure on having to bond them quickly, and then it just makes it all so much harder.

PS. I went ahead and deleted the accidental double posts. To avoid those, when you post, only hit submit once, even if it doesn’t react immediately. If you need to make a correction you can edit the original by viewing it in the thread and clicking “edit” in the top right corner of the post.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bunnybonkers]

Thank you for the advice, regarding posting, that was very helpful.

Thursday they had a good session over three hours together, with no drama. They started off far apart then ended up quite close with Jessica in the litter tray and Hopsy sitting nearby and facing each other.  Which was completely different to the beginning when they were both at opposite ends of the pen. 

When separated in the pen, they are unbothered by each other and will eat, and use their litter trays happily next to one another. 

It is quite a bit of work, cleaning the pens everyday but I have found nice quick way to get it done, sweep up every morning, hay and poop, remove all littler trays and water bottles, roll everything else up including toys in the rug which is their flooring and place aside. Wipe down both pens with vinegar, reset as a single pen. A long handled broom is also saving me from bending down,as the space is quite difficult to manouver in and I keep knocking over the C&C caging with my butt!

I picked up the second-hand pet stroller, it’s in great condition and only cost me £15 and a train fare to pick it up. On Saturday I will take them both for a walk, hopefully this will help.

Stepping back this week and worrying less has been a good thing. Yes my living room is 1/3rd bunny room but everyone who comes around knows I have bunnies and I am in the bonding process so it’s not a big deal. 

So this is it, life goes on and bunny bonding goes on, the new technique is so far so good, it has helped to break the negative chasing pattern they were falling into. Jessica is becoming less skittish around Hopsy and Hopsy less nippy, there are moments but the bonder said that would be Hopsy exerting her dominance especially as Jessica is unwilling to submit. 

Now I just need to find the nerve to take them out in this pet pram!

[Bunnybonkers]

Hi thank you for your advice, I have purchased a second hand pet pram to take them out in for some stress bonding. Let’s see how it goes. I will also as you suggested, stroke them together, I will try and do that daily, there is a physical distance between the two of them that needs to be broken down, hopefully the stress bonding and stroking together sessions will help.

[DanaNM]

Hi there, curious as to how things are going! Any updates on the bonding front?

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Bunnybonkers]

Hi DananNM,
all is well, here thank you so much for asking.

Hopsy unfortunately had a case of G.I Stasis, luckily we caught it very quickly and she is back on track with no ill effects and is back in fine form. Due to this we took a break from bonding, I was unsure if it was the stress of the bonding as bonding had become intense and the G.I came out of the blue with no obvious cause. After a approx a 4 week break we are spoke to the vet and were advised to try again from scratch.

The technique I was using previously was not improving things, it was not making things any worse but we were not progressing either. So we have gone back to bonding in a  neutral space ( the kitchen) and we are now on day 4 of starting again and have managed four, 5 minute sessions with no problems. I just throw in loads of hay and greens and that seems to keep them happy! I have stopped stressing to be honest and resigned myself to the process.

They are a lot more comfortable around each other, even when in their separate pens happily eating opposite each other, mirroring behaviours and touching noses through the bars, looking for each other when one is roaming free and the other in the pen.

 

I think the extra time has allowed Hopsy to settle in further and for her to build her confidence with us and her new surroundings. Jessica also seems a lot happier and is displaying more of the behaviours she did before Hopsy came, which disappeared for awhile, eg jumping on the sofa with me and my partner and jumping on my chest when I fall asleep on the sofa, she seems more relaxed as if she has finally become used to having Hopsy around. The break has done them both good and in fact done no harm at all to the bonding process.

 

One of them is usually always roaming free in the living room (my partner works from home so they have plenty of exercise time ) and the other is in the pen, we remove the divider and open it up to create one large pen instead of two separate pens. That way they both have plenty of exercise, which cuts down on the frustration. It also means no one owns the pen, they both do.

 

I haven’t’ given up yet, almost 4 months in but we are still going.  We have also resigned ourselves to the fact that if bonding does not work, we will just have to jig the living room around and accommodate them both. Yes my living room looks like a barn at the moment, trying to accommodate the needs of two crazy rabbit, which means a large pen area with two of everything and another area with a large litter tray and water bowl for whoever is free roaming! Lol  but everyone is chill and relaxed; bunnies and humans are all learning to live together, things are not perfect, we are not at the ultimate goal but we are very slowly inching in that direction and I can live with that.

Thanks again x

[DanaNM]

Glad to hear it!

I reached that point with BunJovi and Bertha (acceptance of whatever outcome and a decision to not stress about it either way), and actually things got much better after that.

. . . The answers provided in this discussion are for general guideline purposes only. The information is not intended to diagnose or treat your pet. Seek the advice of your veterinarian or a qualified behaviorist.  

[Author]

Messages